Make the spirits give exp and gold. That way, if the Oak spams waves of them he ends up feeding the other team. They'll be more careful microing their spirits after that, and not spamming them left and right.

Rendari thats an ok idea, its just it means getting spirits would basically mean other players overall getting more experience than you and would really hurt the spirits too much.

I've just played my first game in this beta against an Oak who got spirits (a hard AI), and I have to agree.  Those things are insane.  I was playing Erebus, and I dodged the bug that stops you from getting Night Walkers.  Didn't matter; I never saw them do any noticable amount of damage or survive for long at all, even at max level.  Meanwhile, if I didn't start fleeing (ideally teleporting) away as soon as I saw Oak, I was guaranteed to die in under five seconds once his spirits swarmed me.

I tried countering it.  The only counter I could think of (perhaps I'm just too dumb to play this game?) was to load up on armor items.  About 15,000 gold later, I had the best non-artifact armor I could buy, but that only got my damage mitigation up to 65%.  The spirits still chewed through me.  In one attack, Oak waltzed into my base with his army, wandered around aimlessly for a while, then noticed me, slaughtered me in a few seconds, and proceeed to level six towers before I respawned.  Then he got bored and went off to capture some flags (if he'd been a little less ADD he would have destroyed my citadel about ten-twenty minutes in; that was one of the only advantages I had).  I also tried loading up on damage items, on the grounds that if I could kill Oak, his spirits wouldn't be a problem.  I got him down to a few hundred HP once or twice, but I always got killed first.  Nothing Erebus has -- not his minions, not Bite, not Mist -- could dent Oak fast enough or take down those flying terrors.  I tried hiding in Mist a few times, but that just delayed the inevitable.

I did win in the end, but only in the lamest of ways.  Oak's teammate suffered from the AI Braindeath, so I got some gold by killing him repeatedly.  I used it to buy priests and angels, portaled into the AI base, and ninja-grabbed their flag with a Warpstone.  Oak's spirits could splat me in seconds, but when they weren't around I had enough armor and HP regen that I was able to knock out the entire enemy base from within, solo, without stopping to heal.  Once reinforcements started coming through the portal, their citadel fell quite quickly, while Oak was still wandering around re-capturing flags that he didn't need.

I hope that it isn't overdone (IMO the other generals' minions are too weak), but I think something really needs to be done about Oak.

Think they have already nerfed them, so

they dont need to be considerably nerfed, but the other generals minions need a buff to them as well

Yea, Oak spirits need an immediate nerf in serious way.  I'd like to keep them as they are, but they really need to reduce their number significantly.  One of the major problems as I see it is the way +Minion health/damage items and skills work.  It's a flat amount so whereas a summoning demigod might max out at 4x(+minion damage), Oak is getting 12x(+minion damage).  It scales far, far too well.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6420/62935690.jpg

3vs5 game against all nightmare AIs.  I played with my friends just to try out a build with Oak.  I did nothing but max out spirits and the passive minion buff.  I was taking on 3+ Nightmare demigods simultaneously, killing each in the time it took Oak to swing his weapon twice.  I single handedly blasted straight through their defenses and sacked the Citadel with ease.

Yes, this was against AI (albeit Nightmare). Yes, a player could try to counter this better, but the end result would still be very close to the same.

The wards should be targettable.

goodgimp 3v5 s a.i doesnt show anything. We can win 2v5's with no spirits at all easily vs a.i

However I think spirits have got a pretty decent nerf since beta 3, but still think maybe their number should be cut down a tiny bit to 8 or 10...

And yea wards should be targettable.

[AC]DalzK

 you sounds like e real HC player, if its so easy to counter Oaks spirits, then tell it to me. Especially with Erebus.

Thanks

As Dalzk said, they surely have been nerfed. Actually, I still search what kind of damage minions actually are able to deliver (in real game conditions) against a demigod. Anyway.

1 : ) Be on the move. I don't know how you play, but I've never seen minions ganking a demigod so far. Each try to come with a maxed minion build was a miserable failure, mostly because your added dps can be quite easily negated, and all the skill points and items spent in minion don't help you as much as other choices.

2 : ) Powerful minion army = weak general. Many demigod can somehow nuke a general that invest in minions. Minion health doesn't count.

3 : ) crowd control. Ice nova, charm, have long effects on minions. Erebus can go in mist form to let batswarm cooldown refresh.

4 : ) Be on the move. Really. Minions can't save you if you're pursued by an hungry beast or trying to deliver final blow to retreating demigod. The most annoyed demigod in that respect is Regulus, but in the same way the QoT does, he can go for splach damage. Best bet remains to nuke the Oak himself.

5 : ) Armor. Minions only add physical dps that can be cut by high armor values, while skills damage isn't.

6 : ) If you do team games, move in groups. Minions are really less powerful in team battles, mainly because of good nuking abilities and multiplied stun/AoE possibilities.

Sorry one thing I should have been clear on, the point wasn't that we won that game, that's pretty much a given.  The point was the scoreboard in the screenshot.  The two players I was playing with have the same experience and skill level as I, but look at the difference.

I also know that Spirits aren't as effective against a player.  I've been playing against my friend a lot who runs the Torchbearer primarily, and he's having a tough time.  Yes, if he keeps on the move the spirits can't kill him, but it's effectively taking him out of the battle.  There's not a flag point I can't push him out of. 

It's also insane how quickly a Spirit build can level a Citadel.  I can ninja one in moments, and even if the spirits die there are always plenty of minions boxed in there to provide a continuous stream of reinforcements.

In 3A, I'm not saying they're a guaranteed instawin.  I'm not saying they absolutely cannot be countered in any way.  I am saying that, in my opinion and in my experience thus far, they still need a nerf.  Try a similar minion-focused build with any of the other General demigods and see the comparison.