[BALANCE]Oak Spirts - Ridiculous

I agree.  Perhaps the summon flag should have a cooldown to summon units once it's placed.  that is the flag can only summon 1 spirit every x seconds. 

Or maybe have a consumable spell at the store that can do massive damage against all summoned units.

Or a consumable that just hurts air units!!!

yeah, i mean I have only 1 game at all so far in beta 3 but it was against an Oak, and his spirits would just chase me too the towers even though I was Reg. I am much more concerned though about those who can't attack air making it almost impossible to fight creeps long term because angels mass up and a Oak can use his spirits to shred u into peices in a matter of moments. In wc3 their was an items u could buy that allowded melee heroes to attack air by means of either an orb or something or the hero would use a difffernt attack like throw an axe at the opponet. I think this would be goo along with decreased damage.

I'm pretty sure Frogboy posted a changelog saying that all demigods and their minions can attack air units now.

oh my bad, i just never saw my ally attacking air units so i asumed he couldn't.

Still when I was Regulus, taking the angel build (which does very splash damage every shot) I could no where near keep up with Oaks spirits.

The spirits should really nerfed.

I just played two matches 1v1 against a normal AI. Both match I played Vampire Lord against Oak.

In the first game I was stronger than Oak till the moment he started with Spirits. From this moment hadn't I any chance against him. I didn't get any Servants from this time on. (Could it be that Oaks skill is stronger and befor he hasn't full number of his spirits you couldn't get any dark servant from dying bodys?)

After I broke up the first game, I only died, I started a new game on the same map, again VL vs. Oak. This time I made more pressure but he didn't use Spirits, even he was lvl 15. So it was a march throgh.

You probably didnt get Erebus's minions due to a bug that at level 3 upgrade, it stops working.

After more testing I have found yes spirits are a little on the rigged side so maybe they should make Oak weaker so it balances it out because so many people are whining about how generals arn't very rtsy

ok i didnt beleve it really until i saw it for myself

they are DAMN OPed.. they crush the towers and Demis all by themselves.. they really need a nerf

I think since they are special minions they shouldn't benefit from the item boosts. Morale is enough for them.

I don't like this.  Boosting minions from items is nice.

There's no need to penalize them in arbitrary ways, I think they just need a HUGE hit with the nerfbat.  They're so crazy right now I almost think someone accidentally stuck an extra digit on their damage or something

To be completely honest, most people who complain about Oak's spirits are the kind of people who like to stand still and expect to "tank" them. Currently spirits hit for roughly 80 damage each with maxed Morale, and have about 2500 HP with a couple minion buffing items. 

Movement is an integral part of a game like this, and if you are not capitalizing on the fact that they do NOT hit moving targets with normal attack commands it is a player problem. The only way to hit someone moving with Oak's spirits currently is to move said spirits ahead of your target, let them auto attack, and repeat the process. There are a number of problems with this, though. First, if any mobs are around more than likely the spirits will attack them. Second, when you use a "Stop Movement" command, the spirits tend to spread out like fighter planes in an RTS would *Cough*. Third, this may be considered "Advanced Tactics" but all that would be is an excuse meant to overshadow the main problem.

I propose that the spirits be lowered to about 1700 HP WITH minion buffing items, and their damage kept the same. In addition to this, they should move at the same speed as Oak (Counting +Speed items) and also be restricted from flight. With this in mind, I'd assume their AI would be fixed so that they can hit moving targets. It would take two AOE spells to drop all the spirits, or one Rook hammer. You need to bear in mind that you cannot nerf their HP too much as competitive play will most likely take place in the form of 4v4 or 5v5. 5v5 being the prefered format for all competitive leagues, but I doubt this because currently duplicate Demigods on the same team is inbalanced. In a game with this many players the AOE available will neuter Oak.

EDIT: I've given it some thought, and I'm hesitant suggesting nerfing their HP. In a 4v4 or 5v5 all it would take is a couple Demigods combining their AOE to kill them. The main problem people have with them (I have with them) is that they can cover ground too quickly and seem to avoid certain AOE abilities due to them flying.

In my opinion (And other "advanced" players I know in beta) this would solve the current Oak spirit problems.

I plan to do a full write up on Oak soon, as this is only the surface of the problems he currently has.

So what would you do as the Unclean Beast vs Oak when he has his minions out?  Moving is nice, but eventually you'll have to stand still to hit him.  Honest question though, what would your recommendation be for a melee fighter to fight him?

Their damage does need to be reduced, IMO.  Right now they just absolutely shred towers and defenses, I don't think that's right.

@ goodgimp:

This game should not be balanced 1v1, or even 2v2.

Thinking every Demigod should be balanced against each other 1v1 is unrealistic and would make for homogeneous gameplay.

It is also possible to move and attack as melee, I suggest you take advantage of that.

LATE GAME they can shred towers. But so can Queen of Thorns, a "Forces of Darkness" Demigod General.

I think you can leave HP and damage alone just cut number in half. And give a potion or item that allows you to be able to stand and fight instead of running from them all the time.

They cut Yeti's in half but Oak gets a crap load flying monsters that rebuild faster then any generals minions. Maybe its time to make it where he can only have 4 active at any time and make him summon like QoT and Sedna.

I would just like the frequency of the creation rate toned down.  I think they should be tough, as almost no minions currently really scare anyone. 

Having air units with 2k+ HP is just not reasonable. HD300 Im guessing your an Oak player and have never played vs a spirit abuser as another character. Its not true that if you keep on moving you will not get hit. If you change direction at a steep enough angle they will get you and hurt you. Not just that, you have NO choice but to run back to towers/base to deal with him meaning you cannot push forward or get exp from minions. Not just that, once the spirits have reached towers, they will destroy them eventually - and there is nothing you can do about it. Even when I went max angel build with Regulus they would still eventually get my towers. On top of that, they regenerate so easily and quickly. If you manage to deal with a group of 2k+ hp flying minions, then out come another group as soon as few reinforcements are killed. Once your towers are again you have NOTHING to stop them near effeciently, and you have basically lost the game.

And like you said HD300, game should not be balanced 1v1 (imo it should be as much as possible) - so what if you get stunned by another Demigod. The spirits will get you and completely rape you - just because u were stunend for a short while. Not just that, healing isnt really a viable option as if you stop for a second they will get you hard.

And tbh Heroes just cant simply be moving every second in a game. They need to stop frequently so the animations can take place, and like I said you cant run around in circles to dodge them as they get you when you change direction in a steep enough angle.

There damage is insane when grouped together and maxed out. Not just that, Oak himself can dish out very high DPS. Damage cannot not be kept the same - its not fair that if a Demigod stops moving to capture a flag/use an item/cast a spell they get punished for it THAT much. 1.7k HP is still a huge load imo (if no anti-air is introduced or their dps is dropped or nerfed in other ares). Maxed out Regulus angel build will take about 6 shots to kill one - and most of the time you will not every spirit with splash - so thats about 12 shots just to get rid of them. And not just that, even if you eventually do, the next time a wave of reinforcements come the spirits are back up at the cost of literally nothing.

Meanwhile the Oak sits back and does nothing - perhaps upgrading his armour + hp so he is very hard to kill.

Thanks for not reading my post.

That's a red herring.  I agree the game can't be perfectly 1v1 balanced but that's not what's being discussed, the UB question was brought up to highlight how the spirits are out of whack right now.

I think something needs to change, either their damage needs to be reduced, their health needs to be reduced, or their number needs to be reduced.  I'd prefer the latter or a mix of all the above to some degree.

Bit confused. Being sarcastic or?

Unless your referring to your genius idea of making spirits walk.

more stuff needs to target the spirits: shamblers(since there ranged), angels, priests, archers, seige archers and it would be nice if all demigods had some kind of anti air attack (melee demis still only have melee no ranged just an anti air attack) for example: could you see Unclean Beast standing on his hind legs swatting at the spirits? I can! IMO this would fix the problem. I think a reduction in HP is also a good idea 2k is way to much.

In addition to the methods listed here, Raise Dead Wards need to be Targetable/Damageable if the number of Spirits remains as high as it is.  The lower-capped summons are all straight-summon.  Nightwalkers are summoned passively...but Spirits are summoned passively by a totem summoned on the battlefield.

The totem has a listed health, but is untargetable and undamageable.  If this Ward were targetable, it would prevent Oak from freely summoning the spirits in a heated battlefield (Against someone who sees the ward and takes it out quickly), and require him to either pick and choose the battles he gets his Spirits from, or force him to go hunting for spirits himself.

Of course, allowing Raise Dead Ward to be targetable offers three more skills to be used strategically in tandem with it: Shield, Bramble Shield, and Silence.  If possible, having Silence negate the passive summoning periodically could be a decent help at the start of a battlefield where Oak and Sedna meet.  Shield and Bramble Shield could serve the opposite effect, allowing the Ward to survive longer in a heated battle, allowing some Spirits to get summoned before the totem can be targeted.

Furthermore, adding Raise Dead Ward to be targetable allows Mist/Ooze builds of Erebus/UCB respectively (as well as anything with Splash, such as Hammer Slam, Angelic Fury, or most of TB's spells) to counter the placement of a Ward in a battlefield because it allows the Ward to be attacked (and therefore, the method of summoning) without pulling off the character's method of attacking.

While this doesn't solve the problem that already-summoned Spirits are "overpowered", it will help to solve the problem that Spirits are able to be massed very easily and help control the crowds of them that are being produced.

oak need to be mana dependant, making him need mana. ton of mana could help with the spirit problem.

as of now, if he lose them, its not too hard to kill a few mob a no cost and get his full army back, may also make his minion more valuable, since its would be a pain to get them back, and will probably refrain the  player to some extend to use them as strategic bombers on long range target to not  loose them mindlessly cuz he doesnt care

also, to make that, if the spirit get too far of the oak, the oak loose the bonus he gain from having spirit

and i think hd300 idea ia acceptable, but i would also prefer to reduce their numbers, unless you increase all other general amount of minion at the same time, and balance their stat to now be actually usefull, especially sedna yeti since beta 3

TA has posted what we talked about in IRC yesterday.

Oak's ward shows health, that means it can encourage a tactic now to try and destroy his wards before enough spirits are summoned. It will atleast help slow down the near infinite respawning of them later on. 

I think the fact it begins with health in the first place, this was probably in the dev's mind. Makes sense since Oak can summon several later on, which he'd be encouraged to spread out.