That's sad... that greed and a spineless government will bring a country to it's knees before somebody with a spine stands up to effect change for the better. Trouble is, the system as it stands is there purely through apathy, too many people thinking "if it isn't broken....".

OK, it isn't exactly broken, but it sure is in serious need of the old parts being yanked out, some major panel beating and an engine overhaul... that's if it's to keep running at all, in any shape or form.

I don't even live in the US, but I see one thing that's fundamentally wrong politically, and that's this thing I keep hearing/reading about how incumbents (congressmen, senators, etc) are pretty much assured of their place in Washington until they die, or are too ill to continue. I mean, what's with that? If they don't have to fight to stay in office, they have no need to work for your vote, the common good... no need whatsoever to keep their promises. No wonder greed and corruption is rife, running rampant throughout the system... the American people have given these self-serving, waste of space politicians free reign... the keys to the castle, so to speak.... and in turn, free reign to the profit motivated corporations to rip you all off without reprisal.

Government will never ever be perfect, but you can certainly improve your lot by kicking their lazy fat arses out of office - refuse to vote for the pricks!!! Maybe then, perhaps, subsequent office holders will actually work to keep it and your vote. If not, kick the bastards out at the next election - don't return to the 'incumbent' thing - and herald a change that tells politicians they don't 'own' the position anymore but temporarily hold it at your behest/as long as they work for you and not against you. Fuck the incumbents.. they've feathered their own nests and have done nothing whatsoever to deserve your vote.

People are talking about "the government" as if it's this separate thing from where they are.  We, the people, are the government.  The fact is that many, many people just don't care and don't vote and are not in enough pain yet to get off their lazy asses to do anything.

The US doesn't need a military revolution; it needs people to know who represents them and hold them accountable for what needs to be done.  It needs people to call and write and rally.  It needs people that want to improve the system to run for office.  Let's face it, our best and brightest are not in Washington because at this time it's not worth it to them; things aren't bad enough yet.

Is changing policy hard? Yes.  Is it worth it?  I guess not to enough people yet.

In regards to healthcare; look for doctors that don't take any insurance.  Some of them are able to reduce their fees a significant amount because they don't have to hire office staff to deal with insurance.  If enough doctors and patients went this route maybe there'd be better reform.  If you don't think you can vote with your ballat, vote with yoru wallet.  Folks listen to that.

Another piece of this:

I saw a hospital bill a few years ago for about $250,000 gross. The patient belonged to an HMO. The HMO dissallowed about half of the hospital bill, paid their part of the remaining $125,000, and the insured paid their part of that same $125,000, and everybody was happy.

In other words, the HMO declared half of the bill garbage and threw it out. So I have to wonder, if the patient hadn't belonged to the HMO, would the hospital have gone after the insured for the gross amount? I don't know if it's some funky way of accounting for things or if it's a way of gouging, but it seems more than a little funky to me.

And that's really the trick isn't it, getting a government that represents the people. Seems like the line between Corporate America and Government has become increasingly blurred. Maybe the best way to pick your votes is to consider where the candidates get their money and where they've been, not necessarily by what they say. The heck with the television ads, let's see the checkbook.

Of course not: violence breeds violence... and that which is born of violence travels a rocky and violent road. There is more than enough/too much violence already, so a peaceful revolution via the ballot box is preferred... oh, and vote for pacifist politicians who won't take you to war. The massive savings would help fund a universal health scheme that would actually be saving lives rather than taking them.



Now that is total bollocks!! As is $110,000 for knee replacements!!

Let's see, even if there were 20 people involved in the procedure @ $1000 each; $2000 for the anaesthetic; $3000 for each prosthesis and $1000 per day post-operative care for 2 days, it's still only come to a grand total of $32,000... and that's still being rather generous for a couple of bits of molded plastic and a tank of happy/sleepy gas... not to mention a grand for under a day's work. I mean, realistically, how many of you get a grand for just 4 - 5 hours work....

Obviously, at $110,000/$250.000, somebody is profiteering big time! No point in some blaming the medicos and others pointing the finger at insurers... they're one as bad as the other, and thus will feed off one another as long as you keep paying exorbitant prices hand over fist.



That's why insurance companies are evil... they sit on and profit further from your money (investing it for personal gain), but when you make a legitimate claim on your money, they look for as many ways possible not to pay out. For example, I know an old bloke who has been insured with the same company for 40 + years, was rear-ended at a red light by an uninsured/unlicensed driver and had his claim knocked back because his insurer determined fault on his part due to the tread on one of his tyres being 0.02 centimeters below the transport dep'ts guidelines. Now that is total bollocks! He was rear-ended for Christ's sake... and he obviously had ample tread on his tyre(s) to pull up at the red light... without rear-ending the car in front of him.

Yup, what with all the what ifs and nefarious law suits, the world has gone insurance policy mad... and the insurance fat cats, with their luxury villas, cars and yachts, will keep playing up the what ifs to keep you paying hand over fist... thus "gouging" and blowing the price of anything and everything insurable out of proportion.



And if their money comes from insurance, vote for somebody whose money doesn't.

Ya know...voting in this country doesn't mean squat...its just to make the little people feel as though they actually have a say in anything....nothing more. Every year during the elections the government probably sits there laughing they're asses off at everyone that even bothers. And even if it did mean anything...the candidates...well...enough said about them...other than the gene pool is pretty dry. Just tape the previous election speeches....and then during the next election turn your volume down and play it while they're talking....same ole bullshit lies and empty promises...different faces.

And No...we don't need a violent revolution...a nice long sit down strike might do the trick...everyone pay up your bills ahead of time...if you can...stock some provisions...if you can...and then tell the government and corporate greed to just stuff it. Until you start listening to us you can clean your own toilets....pay your own bills....build your own crap....pay your own tickets...that's it...parties over!

Or we can get the entire country to peacefully march on Washington and demand change....NOW! We've had enough and we're not going to take it anymore. And then just sit down and have a tailgate party till they come to their senses. Can you see it now...the entire capitol surrounded by everyone in the country! That would be freakin awesome! If...and I say If....we can all put our own petty differences aside and pull together.

Change could actually happen...I mean really....how many of us are there....how many of them are there? Do you really think they'd stand a chance in hell!?

So very true but the insurance lobbyists cover their bases by giving to everyone except their clients.

I live in Massachusetts where health insurance is mandatory. Talk about complete fail. People are forced to buy the crappiest insuarnce policies possible in order to meet the new law. The insurance companies don't cover anything so now you have poor people being forced to have useless insurance. The money they pay towards premiums could help them with other bills. Instead they are deeper in the shit. They are poorer with useless insurance.



You can take the word probably out of that statement

Nancy Pelosi has to go. She is a stupid puppet that reacts to the morning news and wings it from there.

The first thing every politician does is try to get themselve a pay raise. We allow this to happen over and over and over. They even have a system in place that keeps us out of the loop and doesn't even give the public a vote.

We are all sheep. Yes, EVEN YOU!(meaning everybody) if you weren't a sheep you wouldn't be expressing your frustrations via the web. You would be an activist of some sort.

Just because anyone thinks they get it does not free them from being a sheep. Pissing and moaning is part of the game. You are just a disgruntled sheep.


Banks are starting to fail. If you have more than $ 100,000 in the bank. Get it out! The Man is already broke and will not be able to cover all the losses.

I've been an full time activist ever since the 60's...I think its safe to say I'm on someone's list somewhere if not everyone's. In the end of year newspaper they list everyone's names that's ever written a "Letter To The Editor" to the paper and had it printed....mine always has numerous **** behind it for multiple letters written. I get letters from lawyers wanting buy me dinner and discuss my politics...I get stacks of junk reply mail from government officials for letters written online and sent to them about what they are doing. I try to get others involved...to have they're say...but sadly most people can't be bothered.

If more people got off they're asses and stopped being intimidated by these clowns in government we could actually get things done. You can't even begin to imagine the frustration I feel at the fact that people aren't motivated enough to do anything until its to late. Then I get the standard..."Hey...you were right...we should have done something!" speech.

Creating docks is my therapy and keeps me out of the gun towers!

Good for you Giz!.  Thanks!  

ditto..

When someone starts bitching to me about "things", I ask them, what are you doing to change things? Lets just say that people do not like being challenged like that.

I am currently active in trying to eliminate tax exempt status of churches.

I am currently active in trying to get additional regulations established for home energy requirements. Current laws are loaded with conflicts of interest.

I am curently trying to get a town official fired for forcing contractors to use specific vendors in which he has a stake in.

Tiny steps will eventually lead to your goal.

Each of these little battles prepares me more and more for a run at politics. I could use some golf time.

Web are you and starkers sitting next to each other   Finally some people who think like I do about "our" government. WebGizmos, starkers, NT and others have expressed most of my feelings, but I would like to say what needs to be done is that we (the people) excersize our Constitional right to remove a screwed up government (like Web stated). Unfortuneitly only a violent revolt will actually work, it's gotten that bad. Hummm maybe if the gov had to divert troops from this senseless war to handle the revolt wouldn't be a bad thing.    The entire polictical system here in the US has to be changed from the bottom to the top before any real changes can happen, the system is too corrupt now for any thing to change. Just take a look at our so called presidental candidates. They were pre-selected by the same corrupt government leaders responsiable for this mess, not by us. They were choosen not for what good they could do this country, but for what they could do for them.   

I'm a retired social worker so I've had my share of run ins with the gov regarding health care and all I can say is that there is no health care for most of us, what we have in place is sicking and disgraceful, I have some medical problems that I need treatment for and if it were not for me serving in the military I would be screwed because I can't afford health care. European countries have the right idea when it comes to health care, we don't adopt it because there's no money in it. Enough said. Oh one word "ANARCHY" "ANARCHY".  sorry that was two!  

I always knew there was something about NT I liked besides his skins! I totally agree that religions need to start paying taxes. That...or they need to "Keep thy religion to thy self" and stay out of politics. If they want a say in politics....pay the admission price like the rest of us!

And seriously Bushman...it could be entirely possible to cause change just by sheer numbers in people sticking together. And I wouldn't worry about troops getting in the way...remember that all of them have family here and more tan likely would like to see change as well. Besides....thanks to the idiot running the loony bin now our troops are stretched to thin to have to deal with a revolt.

Yup, too many rich and powerful people in bed together... so what's needed is for the less fortunate to all get on the bandwagon together and protest loudly in their bedrooms... an en-mass coitus interruptus of the richus, if you will.



Me too.... well I was up until 2 Tasmanian Government officials threatened me with reprisals if I didn't shut up and go away... 'tis sad when government and its bureaucrats use the law/police to threaten and intimidate/make you go away. And all I was trying to do was get them to administer the law as it stood to protect my 15 yo runaway stepdaughter from predators... herself. Bah... a waste of time... there was no money in it for them.



Hehe, all that's keeping me from climbing the gun towers is me hook n' peg leg...Aarrgghh!!

Same here in Australia... guess that's why I know something of US politics. Apart from what I see on the news about the US, Oz politics is entrenched with greed, corruption and incumbents who think they own their seat in parliament, so therefore believe they don't have to work for the people/common good to retain it. Yup, they're all tarred with the same brush orright... oh well, guess we could always use them as torches when the power goes out.

And yeah, the churches should have to pay taxes... taxes that are legislated to be ploughed back into the community... not gov't coffers for a rainy day/fringe benefits/salary increases. The amount of wealth the churches sit on to keep their hierarchies living in the lap of luxury is obscene.

Got no time for organised religion, either... too full of greed and corruption, not to mention protecting past/present sexual predators in shrouds of secrecy/passive resistance to law enforcement. Well put it this way, the church/clergy would not be above the law or beyond legal reprisal if I were in power... tho the full extent of the law is pretty piss weak these days. I'd have ter bring back the stocks and pillories... and me fav'rites, keel'auling and the cat o' nine.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.  It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.

"From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.  These nations have progressed through this sequence:

"From bondage to spiritual faith;

Dr. Alexander Tytler, a Scot professor, wrote a scholarly tome, from which this concept comes,  called "The Athenian Republic" which was published shortly before the thirteen American colonies gained independence from Britain.  "Google" him to learn more.

Funny how old news is still news

Same news, different names...

Scary......if I apply a time line to this.......the last 15-20 years have definitely been in the "dependence" era

I wish that was true Web but all the troops would be bound by military law and creed along with the treat of courtmartial and possibly death for treason to do what they are told to do, and they would, History is full of that, so I don't have faith in that part.  :NOTSURE: 

I seriously doubt the public at large would stand for that...I sure as hell wouldn't. And if this government is going to try and use our own troops on our own people...well...lets just say I alone know a lot of armed citizens. And if a mass revolt is done in a peaceful manner I doubt our troops would cross that line.

Not sure that I'd count on that. Remember Kent State? And that was even relatively peaceful.

There would as always be different opinions on what the "Right" thing is. I imagine if push came to shove, the usual rules would apply - he who has the most guns/bullets/bombs/people/strategies/etc. wins.

Good thread, by the way.

Sorry Web but having been in the military I kind of know what most (I said most) of troops will do and that is follow orders. Yu and I might not stand for it, but most of our citizens will because most do not want to mess up what they have now. Unfortunitly I don't believe you can get a mass peaceful revolt, it may start out peacefully but as soon as the powers to be push it will turn ugly. DaveRI made a good point,when push comes to shove w/o arms the revolt will lose. It's sad but Americans are so spoilded with their lifestyles that most will do nothing that would interfer with taking that away. That's just the cold hard facts.   

You know, guys, it really, really worries me when people start talking guns and revolution in the same sentence... so let's hope change can be effected diplomatically and via peaceful political processes, because, alternatively, it's inevitable that gov't reprisals would be in the form of military intervention and thus could only end in widespread bloodshed and the unnecessary deaths of innocents.

Sadly, governments believe they have a right to control, rather than to govern/serve, and as history shows us, they are completely ruthless in quashing anything that threatens to usurp their authority... so yes, unless the rank and file could first usurp authority and control from military hardliners/gov't puppets, the armed forces would follow orders (for fear of being shot for treason) and open fire on those who challenge their masters.



Sorry, but even with arms the revolt would lose... in fact, both sides would lose! The only winners would perhaps be future generations... from the lessons learned. Besides, the military is trained to deal with armed conflict, so unless the revolt was extremely well drilled, disciplined and organised, as opposed to the historically disorganised rabble with inferior resources, it would be doomed to failure against a far superior, better equipped foe.

I don't know what the answer is, being that the politicians have it all stitched up, but I sure as hell hope that it never comes to a civil war that has neighbour pitted against neighbour, brother pitted against brother... that would be horrendously abominable... anywhere in the world.

I don't see a revolt as a solution either. To me it's more a matter of constant committed pressure to maintain the separation of powers. This isn't a new idea, it's kind of what the whole structure was based upon. I suppose I think that the "other" powers which haven't been successfully addressed are "Wealth" and "Religion". I'm not even going to start on Religion.

Goes back to my earlier statement regarding the blurring of the line between government and the corporate world (e.g. healthcare) which is what got me going on all this. And of course there is concentrated personal wealth. I honestly believe we need to continually work to drive a wedge between money and government, or at the very least know who's been throwing cash at the candidates. It's the old money/power thing vs. representation of the people.

This is a link to OpenSecrets.org - Money in Politics WWW Link As far as I know it's objective, but who really knows for sure. I put it here a little reluctantly because it's already so friggin' slow    I do honestly think that the best indicators of what you might expect from candidates are where they've been, what they've done, and who's throwing money at them. After all, elect those oil boys and the oil industry sure does seem to do great, doesn't it? This is not the first time this has happened. [can't really think of an emoticon to express how I feel about this]

Which leads me to another thing that always amazes me. The US will have impeachment procedings for a president who fools around sexually, which is (moral judgements aside) a relatively common practice amongst the powerful. Yet a president goes to war based upon manipulated intelligence, ignores and continues to ignore one of the larger natural disasters in U.S. history (New Orleans), turns the largest treasury suplus in history into the largest treasury deficit in history, and things are strangely quiet. I don't get it.

Yup, when it comes to lies, I know that much I'd prefer "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" over "I know Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction." any day.

OK, so Clinton had some dalliances with a White House intern or three, but in comparison that's insignificant and more easily forgiven and forgotten than the stain Bush inflicted on humanity with his "If you're not with us you're agin us" and gotta invade Iraq mentality.

I sure as hell hope Bush has the most absolute nastiest taste in his mouth for the rest of his days... er, for an eternity for these evils against mankind.