Starting to look like congress in here.  

Amen Brother.

Some Insurance Companies have a Pre-Existing period when you first start your insurance.(usually the first 6 months)
Meaning every time you need medical help where you have to file a claim in that 6 month period, the insurance co. will request up to 18 months worth medical records before your claim date to determine if it is a pre-existing condition. If it is, They will not pay. That is wrong.

Well, soon you have the chance to address this problem........I'm not a US national and therefore I don't have a vote........but the US has the opportunity to ask Obama or McCain what they are going to do about this situation........and then vote accordingly........and then pray to god that they follow through on their word........and what is the chance of that happening!!!

I love my adopted country - the USA - and I consider myself to be very fortunate to be a legal Permanent Resident here but to see so many people deprived of basic health care because of cost and the the 'profiteering' system is just so so wrong     

I think you all are under the mis-apprehension that teh President of the United States has more power than he does.  It is the place of the Congress and the courts to keep him in check. 

I agree that we should listen to the candidates and vote (or, if you can't, speak out) your beliefs.  But if you are not voting and writing and calling your representitves at every local and federal level you are failing to back your beliefs.

One of the blessing of runnign for president is that they can promise any stupid-ass thing they want knowing full well that congress will shut them down.  Then you'll hear at the State of the Union, "Well, I tried but those {other party members} wouldn't let me do what you sent me here to do."  Bullshit of course . . but entirely correct.

And don't start spewing off about "free" health care.  Because, in the end, it'll be the wealthy and the middle-class paying for the poor.  Now, I don't know about you but I want to choose which poor people I give my money to.  I'd rather not have the Feds take my money, add their costs, and then give it to someone else they think needs it.  If I had to go that direction let me do it at the state or city level so the people responsible are known to me and I can vote them out or pressure through voting to have them replaced.

I don't mean to be a hard ass . . but it's my money. I earned it.  I should have some control over it.  And unless the constitution is ammended so I have to give it up, I'd rather not. Thank you very much!

Well, many poor folks arent poor from lazyness.. I suppose they should all just die?

and. they are dying.

I never said that.  But the feds aren't known for managing money well, now are they?  :)Rich folks die too.  And they don't take it with them either. 

Speaking of dying..this horse is.. Nighty Night   

Health Care does not equal Health Care Insurance ...

... despite the fact that so many have successfully blurred the line between the two sufficiently for the majority of Americans to see no distinction.

It's difficult to even discuss with so many unable or unwilling to see the difference.


If you want to talk about the quality of Health Care available in America, that's one thing. It's doubtful that it is surpassed by anyone.


Availability and/or affordability is another matter entirely. That where the Insurance part comes into play; not to mention the actual costs incurred.

That's exactly it... and health professionals and health insurance just don't get it....

... a "$110, 000" bill for knee replacements, for Christ's sake. Even some wealthy folks would have trouble paying for that... so what hope in hell has a needy poor person of getting the health care they need!!!!

I've read here that it's not the fault of the doctors, and I've read that it's not the fault of the health insurance companies... and that is total BULLSHIT!!! Out and out greed on both sides is the reason why health care is out of the reach of poor people.. no more, nothing less.

Trouble is, the American way of doing things is infiltrating the health system here in Oz - what with the gov't offloading its health care responsibilities left, right and centre to private concerns and American owned insurance companies that care more about profit than the health of the contributors they fleece for everything they can get.

I can't afford private health insurance... and even if I could, I'd never get my money's worth because they'd deem I have too many pre-existing conditions and would never pay out. Yep, they'd take my money all right... but it'd be 100% profit.

We had a pretty good health system, based pretty much on the British system, but it has gone to pot in recent years and health care is becoming harder to get... what with private patients now able to occupy a public hospital bed ahead of public patients... and with whole wards in public hospitals being closed because gov't has become tight as a fishes arse, wanting to leave the lion's share of funding up the the profiteering private sector.

I have a litany of complaints about health care here in Oz since Paul Keating paved the way for lil Johnny to sign that (so-called) free trade agreement with the US, because it has dramatically gone downhill big time now that major drug and health insurance companies have established footholds in what wasn't broken until they got a hold of it.

Seems to me, since the War of Independence, the American way is so entrenched in bucking the Westminster system of things, people there would tolerate huge internal injustices than look at what is good about it... and universal health care for all IS a GOOD thing. Yeah, I know, Americans would rather trust a profiteer because there's corruption in government... FUCK, who hasn't got corruption in government, but I'd still prefer the old Westminster way of doing things, that provides health care, than put my faith in profit motivated corporate entities that see me only as a dollar sign.

I know a lot of US members won't like what I've said, but quite frankly, I don't give a stuff... have unnecessarily suffered too much under this new system of things to care whether or not I've upset anyone. That's right!! I don't care!! I've been needing to see a specialist for the last 5 years about some injury related issues... and I'm no closer to seeing one than I was 5 years ago. That's right... NO EFFING closer...

A recent inquiry with the hospital dep't revealed that I will NEVER be seen by a doctor for a debilitating issue that has made my life a misery for years now. I'm told that I'm on a waiting list to be put on the specialists clinics waiting lists... and that (according to a friend who works at the hospital) means my patient file has been marked as inactive and returned to the archives... thus shortening my life-expectancy considerably.

Wouldn't have happened years ago... before our health system was infiltrated and taken over by greed/the money raking profit system.!!

It's a war of attrition... and the poor are losing more and more battles all the time, and their lives due to poor and/or non-existent health care... so it's obvious that they're gonna lose the war, cos more and more, money determines whether or not you live or die when you get sick.

America is screwed. The media that once preyed on fear is now settling into a calming phase to suppress nationwide panic. When it bottleknecks, head for the hills. America in all out panic will be very ugly. Uglier than 1000 Zubazeses in stockings.

People see it coming yet do nothing. I am proud of what America is supposed to stand for. I am embarrased for what America has become. It has become a plutocracy of greed and corruption.

I wonder just how our military would respond to a revolt. I am willing to bet (my life) that they do nothing. A peaceful revolution seems possible to me. I just don't see our military harming American citizens. If 5 million of us showed up at the gates of the white house one morning, we might be heard. All we need is a leader to get behind. I propose......... ME.   

But have no fear, we spent millions to record the sound of Jello wobbling for the first time in history.   

As I understand it this issue has already been addressed. When Bill Clinton was President a system was set up so that in case of revolt the UN would be brought in to establish and maintain marshall law. I forget the particulars (read the story in 2000-2001) but I believe the supplies have already been stockpiled in different places across the country.

First thing....I doubt our military would even have the manpower anymore to stop a revolt...they are spread so thin now that they are actually allowing convicted felons to join the military.

And screw the U.N....

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

No shit!? Aw man! I missed that!

Having lived in only 2 provinces in Canada, I can say that in Manitoba it is all free, excetp for phamaceutical(depending on income) and dentistry. I BC, well there we have to pay for our medical. You pay full price depending on your income. Really all in all quite reasonable. We have started with independent medical facilities as of late. Which is a 2 Tier resolution to the time factor as in waiting for MRI's and such..... But in my opion all is well in Canadian Health Care. My brother is a cancer survivor......
I wish one and all good health.

"I love the sound of Jello wobbling in the morning....."

Napalm is just sooo yesterday.

Definitely a good read, and starkers, I don't think anyone here in the US would disagree with you, you are absolutely correct.

Sadly, there is a number of people who do disagree with me: saying things like, "health care should not be in the hands of government... because government is corrupt and couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery." How weird, you'll trust your government with squillions of dollars to wage war in Iraq, but not tuppence to ensure affordable medical care?

And it is precisely this kind of attitude that allows health care costs to skyrocket and health industry big-wigs to thrive in luxury, thus putting medical attention out of the reach of low income earners and the poor, even increasing numbers of the wealthy... because health care professionals and insurance companies know that the inherent distrust of government means there is no alternative and they must get paid. The problem with that is that they then can charge what they like... and when people at the lower end of the socio-economic scale drop off because they can no longer afford it, they greedily jack up their prices even more to compensate the loss of earnings... thus putting a visit to the doctor out of reach for even more people.

Whatever happened to the reasoning that it's easier to get one dollar from a million people than it is to gt a million dollars from one person???

OK, so governments have their failings, but many countries have government funded health care systems that provide workable 'universal' health care to the masses, so why not in the US???? Oh, that's right: "We don't like 'old world' ways and don't trust government to manage our money!" Well if you keep putting your trust in greedy, profit motivated insurance companies to run your health care then you ain't gonna have any fucking money... or access to a doctor/hospital when you need it.

Yup, maybe the Boston Tea Party signaled something rather more ominous than just telling 'mother' England to stuff it, "we don't need your steenkin' tea". The founding fathers may have wanted a fresh new start, nothing wrong with that, but in rejecting all that was 'old world', they effectively rejected tried and trusted methods and threw the baby out with the bath water... and now some of the worst US ways are being exported worldwide, like exorbitantly priced health insurance to OZ. Now we had a pretty good health care system prior to all that, so to go back to something tried and trusted, maybe we need to throw our own 'Boston' and toss all those insurance policies in Sydney Harbour.

***Oh, and the you here refers to no-one in particular, OK***

The question is ... how many people think they are doing a good job of it?

I think most people will agree that, in it's present form, the US Government is one of the, if not the, most inefficient organizations in the US if not the world.

Put it this way; if the US Government were a private company, they would have gone under many years ago or else have been jailed for malfeasance!

Ironically enough, the US government is the longest standing government in the world (over 200 years now) so it must be doing *something* right.

That "something right" was convincing people long ago to give over so much control of their lives to the government itself.

A country which started on a noble idea of freedom and has since been turned into a society forced into following the rules made up by the "select" few who work their way into positions of power. A country that is supposed to be governed by people who are looking out for the interests of all but ends up being run by some(not all) lowlifes no better than the drug dealers, pedophiles, and killers on the streets.

And back to the original topic of health care who knows whether the government would do a better job(probably not) of running it if we turned over to a system that seems to work well for many other countries. But as far as funding for it meaning higher taxes, I'm sure that would end up being the case but unnecessarily so. If our government would stop ridiculous spending of the taxes they collect now, many things would be in better shape.

Just a quick example.

I appreciate the things the men and women of the military do for the rest of us just as much as many others do. But how many of you ordinary citizens out there get paid to move your own stuff?

My sister , the wife of an army soldier, just recently moved from one home to another within a 15 minute drive of each other. Now I can understand having your moving paid for when done professionally as an added part of your pay. But how necessary is it that if you choose to move your own stuff you get paid by the pound for doing it? She only ended up getting to the weigh station with one UHaul load of stuff they were moving and for that ended up getting a check for around $2400.

Nothing against the men and women who serve the military but just an example of ridiculous spending by our government as far as I'm concerned.

I think a lot of people around the world believe this of their government - and in many cases, most politicians couldn't find their arse with both hands and a map giving directions - but all in all (take out the rogue governments), in the Western World, they're not doing too bad a job at trying to keep the majority, housed, fed and alive. OK, there are some exceptions and some people fall through the cracks, particularly in poorer sectors of the community, but for the most part our standards of living have improved over the last 50 years or so.

However, standards of living could be so much better if governments didn't have to court/bow down to large corporate entities to stay in office... perhaps then there would be a fairer distribution of wealth and wages that allow people to 'really' live rather than just keeping their heads above water. Yes, governments are too often manipulated and controlled by the corporate world... and much economic 'reform' is geared towards keeping these big movers and shakers happy, meaning that the 'small' man is too frequently given little or no consideration and is left behind in a trail of poor governmental decisions and has to fend for himself on peanuts.

Sure we need large corporations to generate goods and services... jobs, but the corporate world also needs a happy, healthy and able to pay consumer base to survive... and this is why governments need to do more to protect the small man as well... because without a healthy happy workforce/consumer base, the economy goes down the shit chute along with the corporations. Simple economics, really, but far too many corporate entities neglect to consider the well-being and propensity of customers/would-be customers to pay and thus go broke or move their operations offshore to maximise profits via cheap labour, thus reducing the ability of their own domestic market to pay... not that they care too much. There's export markets to saturate - until they can absorb/pay no more - "but what the heck", they say: "I'm here for a good time, not a long time!"

So! If the small man is struggling to put food on the table, clothes on his back and enough fuel in the tank to get to work, then it's likely that health cover is on the back burner or foregone entirely... meaning that somebody has to pick up the health care slack if there's to be a healthy workforce/consumer base... because, at the end of the day, rank and file workers are the backbone of any economy/corporate entity. Without them there are no rich fat bastards getting fatter off their efforts.



Me thinks Oliver Cromwell would have something to say about that... being he was first elected to the English Parliament in 1628... but: "The origins of Parliament go back to the 12th century," and "By the 14th century two distinct Houses, the Commons and the Lords, had developed." WWW Link ... so um, when did the US gov't actually form??? :NOTSURE:

Starkers...couldn't agree more with your above post.



The thing is Starkers...We...well..I should say those of us smart enough to know better...don't trust this government...and if we actually had our way and the government actually worked "for us" and not against us...we wouldn't even be in Iraq. And the other problem is that the U.S. doesn't have that many people left with a backbone anymore to stand up to them.

Trust me....things are going to get a lot worse here before they get better.

I like the fact that I am a woman who has taken care of three handicapped people for over 25 years. I worked full time until about two years ago when my medical condition became a problem.

My husband became too ill for me to go to work now and I have no insurance, so I can't go to the doctor.

I still don't qualify for medicare or social security and live in pain everyday.

You would think with our limited income which is social security they would put me on medicade or medicare to help me stay healthy to take care of these three people but no, this means if anything were to happen to me the family would be in the care of the state who would then send out nurses to care for them, at what cost then?

Taxpayers dollars in the end.

I don't get it, keep me healthy so I can go to work and pay taxes, or keep me unhealthy till I break down or die and make them take care of three people in the system?

We lost our home, that wasn't bad enough, we lost a nice car and now drive a junker. We don't have money for anything but bills and food and yet don't qualify for any help.

I have to go to the emergency room when my medical condition gets too bad that I have to go because no ins. means I don't have a doctor who can help me.

The medical bills pile up, and I have no way to pay them.

That alone taxes the system because those of us who can't pay cost everyone who can.

Who's fault is this, those who took away welfare many years ago took away the ability to qualify for any state help or federal help. Yes welfare is not a good thing for those who abuse it but for those who need foodstamps and medicade they can no longer get it because the poverty level is just to the cut off that we don't qualify.

Give those in office free health care and yet they can pay for it, they have the money. The poor and those who work get nothing. Yep we love the system don't we?

what bothers me, is i have a really good healthcare plan, ( at least i thought i did) but they are nickel and diming me to death, last year, i spent 12,000 on co payments (medication, dr visits etc) but there is a kicker, my wife has advanced MS, and if i apply for some type of assistance they tell me i make too much money, duh, 12 grand goes to the insurance company but that is not figured in the big picture, and the co pays keep going up, they come out with a list every year, preferred medicaitons, preferred doctors, if you dont use or go to one of them, you pay more and more, yes i know a lot of people dont even have healthcare, i wonder if i would be better off without it, in Massachusetts everyone has healthcare, its a law, but us working stiffs, foot the bill for the lazy ones, some months i have to make a choice to pay for my medication for high blood pressure, or use the money for my wifes, and the only real luxury we have is this, the internet,