Sodaiho Sodaiho

Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

staging a messiahship

With palms together,

 

There is an interesting article in the N Y Times today about a stone tablet found amid the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Apparently it suggests that the notion of a suffering messiah who would rise in three days was a common belief in the century prior to the Christian Jesus.

 

The article suggests:

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

 

Hmmm. The death and resurrection myth prior to Jesus' birth?  It would seem this adds to the notion advance some decades ago by a Jewish scholar suggesting this whole Jesus script was a scheme to get Jesus recognized as the Messiah, that Jesus was aware of the things that needd to happen before they happened in order to meet the criteria.

 

And later:

 

Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and “Gabriel’s Revelation” shows it.

“His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,” Mr. Knohl said. “This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.”

 

Strange.

Link

Be well

 

 

 

 

924,110 views 969 replies
Reply #801 Top

Leauki, is Elohim an exception?

It seems to me that the singular of Elohim is El which follows the Hebrew standard of him (heem) suffix of plurality? As in Yehuda (one person), Yehudim (those of Yehuda)?
End of quote


No, Elohim is not an exception.

There are several words for "god" in Hebrew.

One is "el" (Aleph Lamed). The plural ("gods") is "elim" (Aleph Lamed Yud Mem).

Another is "eloah" (Aleph Lamed 'Vav' He). The plural is "elohim" (Aleph Lamed He Yud Mem). (I marked 'Vav' because it is a vowel and not part of the root.)

This is cognate to Arabic "ilah" (Aleph Lamed He), which, together with the definite article "al" (Aleph Lamed, long story) forms "Allah" (= "the god").

There is no doubt that "Elohim" is plural.

However, the verbs it commands are in singular ("Elohim says" rather than "Elohim say"). This suggests a majestic plural. But that's not the argument I am making.



I agree that just because Elohim being plural has the intrinsic value of trinity.
End of quote


I'm not sure I understand that sentence.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about the "intrinsic plural". English has two numbers, singular and plural. Hebrew, like most(?) Semitic languages has three numbers, singular, dual, and plural.

The "dual" is named such because it most often applies to pairs. But what it really applies to is "intrinsic plurals", i.e. plurals that are part of the concept of the noun.

Hebrew for "leg" is "regel" (Resh Gimel Lamed). Legs have an intrinsic plural since they usually appear together. The intrinsic plural or dual is formed by adding -aim (Yud Yud Mem) instead of -im (Yud Mem).

1 regel RGL: (one) leg
2 raglaim RGLYYM: two legs (of a man)
3 raglim RGLYM: three legs (different such)
4 raglaim RGLYYM: four legs (of a dog)
5 raglim RGLYM: five legs (different such)

Same applies to teeth (shin -> shinaim), eyes (3ayin -> 3inaim (I suppose you could have "3inim" in a jar)), and breasts (shad -> shadaim). ("3" is a letter.)

Hence "elohim" (Aleph Lamed He Yud Mem), if we read it has a plural is a non-intrinsic plural.

eloah: god (one such)
elohim: gods (different such)
elohaim 'LHYYM: gods (united such)

So if you want to read "elohim" to mean "lots of different gods", you can (although you would still have the problem of the verbs attached to it being singular).

But it's simply not the right grammatical form for "gods (united such)".



Leauki, you would probably know better but I thought Echad (אחד) meant properly "united" as in 1 team.
End of quote


No. It means "one" (masculine). "Achat" (with a "t") means "one" (feminine).

What you are looking for is "ochad" (adjective of the verb "le'achad" = "to unite").

The relationship between "echad" and "le'achad" and "ochad" is the same as in English "one" and "to unite" and "union".

"Unite" and "union" are from Latin, but the Germanic root "one" is from the same Indo-European root. In Latin "one" is "unus" (masculine).


Reply #802 Top

How will you arrive at the truth if you don't WATCH THE MOVIE? [i.e. read the Bible] Or better yet...read the book. It's always better than the movie.
End of quote


But I do read the book.

I am just trying to understand it. And to do so I need to know what the words mean and what they mean in historic context.

As with the example "earth", words change meaning. When "eretz" was translated as "earth", the word "earth" in English and other European languages meant indeed "land", not "earth, the planet". "Terra incognita" means "unknown land", not "unknown planet earth". It's "earth" as in "the land", not "earth" as in "the planet earth" or "the world".

But I don't believe that the truth changes with the words.

Hence if an author 3000 years ago uses the word "eretz", and it is correctly translated as "earth", and the meaning of the word "earth" then changes over time, that shouldn't matter. In Hebrew the meaning of the word "eretz" didn't change. It meant then and means now "land". Nobody said "eretz" or "terra" 2500 years ago and meant the entire planet. People didn't know there was an entire planet.

I will write an article about that with pictures to explain it better.

The same applies to "shana" ("year"). The word originally meant "unit of time", based on a root that means "repeat". For the last 3000 years it meant "year", but it didn't always mean year. In the older parts of the Bible, i.e. those that are based on legends that precede Exodus (Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham), "shana" didn't necessarily mean what it means a few hundred years later. Some of these are retold Sumerian legends. They are true, we assume, because they are in the Bible. But that doesn't mean that the truth changed when the words changed meaning. Sumerians used months instead of years to count age, as far as I know. But those would be translated into Proto-Aramaic-Hebrew (the language that took over from Sumerian in Mesopotamia and that later split up into Aramaic and Hebrew/Phoenician) as "tana" or "shana" (there is a /t/<->/sh/ consonant shift between Aramaic and Hebrew). Hence we don't know whether "shana" in Genesis means "year" or "month", and my guess is that whichever translation matches the Sumerian legend AND makes more sense is probably right.

A similar problem affects "yom", which means not just "day" (as in modern Hebrew) but also "time period" or "time" (as in "one time" and "another time") in ancient Hebrew. Translating "yom" as day can give us comical results. (And Bible translations do not always translate "yom" as "day".)

Even English has those different meanings for day: "back in my day" ("day" refers to an age or time period). And there is a Hebrew prayer that predicts the time ("haYom") when everybody will recognise the one G-d. It doesn't mean that it will be one day, but it refers to a time period longer than a day (indefinite, in fact).

So as I said before, read any part of the Bible either literally or symbolically. But do make sure that you chose the right way to figure out when to apply which mechanism, and if you read a part literally, make sure you really do!



Reply #803 Top

Mithra was the basis for Christ, Saul (Paul) even went so far as to use the selling points of Mithras when he went to Greece to 'convert' the 'heaterns' there. Just mixed the two 'gods' up a bit, shake well and viola!

  1. Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
  2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
  3. He had 12 companions or disciples.
  4. Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
  5. He performed miracles.
  6. As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
  7. He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
  8. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
  9. He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
  10. He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
  11. His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
  12. Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
  13. His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
  14. "His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
  15. Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ."
  16. The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"
  17.  

Reply #804 Top
In 1 Kings 1:1 "byamim" ("yamim" is plural of "yom") is translated as "in years".

In Amos 4:4 "shaloshat yamim" is translated as "three years".

In Genesis 18:11 "byamim" is translated as "in age".

I looked these up myself.

There are Web sites that list these things but they are highly inaccurate (meaning "wrong").

Reply #805 Top
SODAIHO POSTS:
Hell, Satan, and his angels? From my POV, these are Christian fairy tales with no foundation in reality.
End of quote


I do not agree that there is an abode after life. Heaven or Hell, or anything in between. We are with Him in varying degrees from positive to negative in this life. From a my POV, we exist in His abode right now, always. When we live in positive accordance with God, that is at one with Him, we are in heaven. When we are not living at one with God we are living in hell. In either case, He is with us, dwelling within us, it is up to us to open our hearts to Him.
End of quote


Besides returning to dust takes care of our physical body after death, what do you think happens to our spirit (our soul)?

You say Heaven and Hell exist as part of this life, and Post # 799 is where I attempted to tie the foundation of the reality of Hell, Satan, etc. existing apart from this life. I'm sure you understand the principle of earthly justice...for our authorities and our laws are all about that. We punish the bad and reward the good. Same deal with God for our earthly justice (authority and laws) is based up His Justice.

Unbelievers tend to deny the existence of Heaven and Hell and yet, God is one in His Mercy, Love, Power and Justice. We can't set one of His attributes against the other. God is Justice. God is Mercy. He cannot defeat His Mercy by His Justice, nor His Justice by His Mercy nor can He deviate from His right without ceasing to be God.

The human race ever since the Fall of Adam and Eve have yielded to temptation and sinned grieviiously. God offered us eternal happiness on the condition that we serve Him freely during our life (our time of probation). If a sinner deliberately refuses , then God's Perfect Justice will punish him afterward. If a man is condemned to Hell, then he certainly deserved it. IF he can honestly say, I didn't know God's law, or I could not help sinning, God cannot and will not punish him. None of the lost have ever asked for His mercy.

For those deliberate sinners, can God, Jesus Christ, justly say to them, if they die unrepentant, "Come ye blessed of My Father, possess the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world?"



Reply #806 Top
LEAUKI POSTS # 803
But I do read the book.

I am just trying to understand it. And to do so I need to know what the words mean and what they mean in historic context.

As with the example "earth", words change meaning. When "eretz" was translated as "earth", the word "earth" in English and other European languages meant indeed "land", not "earth, the planet". "Terra incognita" means "unknown land", not "unknown planet earth". It's "earth" as in "the land", not "earth" as in "the planet earth" or "the world".

But I don't believe that the truth changes with the words.

Hence if an author 3000 years ago uses the word "eretz", and it is correctly translated as "earth", and the meaning of the word "earth" then changes over time, that shouldn't matter. In Hebrew the meaning of the word "eretz" didn't change. It meant then and means now "land". Nobody said "eretz" or "terra" 2500 years ago and meant the entire planet. People didn't know there was an entire planet.
End of quote


We are all proof positive that it's very difficult to understand the correct meaning of Sacred Scripture. Arriving at the wrong interpretation can be dangerous too, for according to St.Peter, there are "certain things hard to understand which the unlearned and unstable wrest (distort) as they do also other Scripture, to their own destruction."

Yes, understanding what the words mean in historic context is important, but just as important is to understand them in the context of the entire passage or chapter.

You cite the example of the word "earth"; Hebrew word, erets. It's used 46 times in the Flood account in Genesis 6-9. The same word is in Genesis 1, the big picture of Creation, and putting that all together in context tells us the word for earth clearly implies the whole earth, and that with the Flood, God pronounced universal judgment.

Reply #807 Top

You cite the example of the word "earth"; Hebrew word, erets. It's used 46 times in the Flood account in Genesis 6-9. The same word is in Genesis 1, the big picture of Creation, and putting that all together in context tells us the word for earth clearly implies the whole earth, and that with the Flood, God pronounced universal judgment.
End of quote

 

You do realize this is exactly what a Talmudic discussion looks like!  Wonderful!

More later, just now I need to step out.

Be well.

Reply #808 Top
People didn't know there was an entire planet.
End of quote


The writers of Scripture didn't have to have knowledge that the earth is an entire planet ....God did know this fact and since He is the principal AUthor of Scripture and guided the writers to write Scripture and since He created the Earth fully explains why the word "earth" is consistently used.

Reply #809 Top
I agree that just because Elohim being plural has the intrinsic value of trinity.


I'm not sure I understand that sentence.
End of quote


Oops. I meant that because Elohim is plural it does NOT have the intrinsic value of trinity (being limited to 3).

No, Elohim is not an exception.

There are several words for "god" in Hebrew.

One is "el" (Aleph Lamed). The plural ("gods") is "elim" (Aleph Lamed Yud Mem).

Another is "eloah" (Aleph Lamed 'Vav' He). The plural is "elohim" (Aleph Lamed He Yud Mem). (I marked 'Vav' because it is a vowel and not part of the root.)

This is cognate to Arabic "ilah" (Aleph Lamed He), which, together with the definite article "al" (Aleph Lamed, long story) forms "Allah" (= "the god").

There is no doubt that "Elohim" is plural.

However, the verbs it commands are in singular ("Elohim says" rather than "Elohim say"). This suggests a majestic plural. But that's not the argument I am making.
End of quote


Thanks for clearing that up.

Leauki, you would probably know better but I thought Echad (אחד) meant properly "united" as in 1 team.


No. It means "one" (masculine). "Achat" (with a "t") means "one" (feminine).

What you are looking for is "ochad" (adjective of the verb "le'achad" = "to unite").

The relationship between "echad" and "le'achad" and "ochad" is the same as in English "one" and "to unite" and "union".

"Unite" and "union" are from Latin, but the Germanic root "one" is from the same Indo-European root. In Latin "one" is "unus" (masculine).
End of quote


Hmm, Take a look at Genesis 11:6.

ויאמר יהוה הן עם אחד ושפה אחת לכלם וזה החלם לעשות ועתה לא־יבצר מהם כל אשר יזמו לעשות׃

Note that when talking about one people (עם אחד) the word used for 'one' is echad but very shortly after in referencing a singular language we see Achat (ושפה אחת).

This scripture text seems to suggest the opposite of your previous response?
Reply #810 Top

You cite the example of the word "earth"; Hebrew word, erets. It's used 46 times in the Flood account in Genesis 6-9. The same word is in Genesis 1, the big picture of Creation, and putting that all together in context tells us the word for earth clearly implies the whole earth, and that with the Flood, God pronounced universal judgment.
End of quote


No, it doesn't. And some of the occurrences of the word "earth" are not "eretz" but "adama".

It never says "haKol eretz" ("the entire land") but simply "haAretz" ("the land"). And the latin translation uses the word "terra", which means "land" more than "earth" (it meant both when "earth" meant "land", but as I said "terra incognita" is "unknown land" not "unknown (planet) earth").

Counting the word doesn't help, that's just substitute for real research. The word "eretz" is used a lot in the Bible and is variously translated as "earth" or "land", but it always meant the same, and "eretz Yisrael" is not the planet Israel.


The writers of Scripture didn't have to have knowledge that the earth is an entire planet ....God did know this fact and since He is the principal Author of Scripture and guided the writers to write Scripture and since He created the Earth fully explains why the word "earth" is consistently used.
End of quote


Only G-d wasn't talking to Himself when he specifically chose the word "land" (not "earth", we have been through this). The word "earth", in contrast to what you say, is NOT "consistently used". It's not even consistently used in the Noah story.

When talking about the animals on the ground "adama" is used (and translated as "earth"). When talking about the land "eretz" is used (and translated as "earth"). But "eretz" doesn't mean "earth, the planet" and never has. It was only in the last few hundred years that the Germanic word "earth" has come to mean "earth, the planet" (and in German the word "Erde" still has the primary meaning "ground" and an Aardvark is not a pig peculiar to our planet but a pig peculiar to the ground).

Yes, G-d knew. And that is why he used the word "land".

And if the meaning of the word "earth" hadn't changed in the English language, we wouldn't have this discussion.

The "world" the Bible describes is entirely local. Sometimes the Bible refers to "haKol 3olam", the entire world; but when it does it is specifically mentioned, with the Hebrew term for "the entire world", "haKol 3olam". Noah's story does not say "haKol 3olam" ("the entire world") but "eretz" ("land").

Like Guareschi's "Mondo Piccolo Don Camillo" ("The little world of Don Camillo"), the land the Bible talks about was Mesopotamia and later Israel.

G-d knew this and hence used the word "eretz", which does NOT mean "planet earth".

I find it interesting that you would insist that a literal reading is so important but then suddenly go back and insist that "eretz" must not be understood literally but in context (which to you, but not to me, suggests that "land" means the entire world).



You do realize this is exactly what a Talmudic discussion looks like! Wonderful!
End of quote


Yes, I have no doubt that the sages were after the truth just as I am. They were still ahead I am sure. But I have access to archaeological findings they didn't so it's still useful to continue the search.

Once I figured out the Tanakh I will look at the Talmud. But at the moment I am neither qualified nor ready for it. Reading the Talmud now might just lead me into a direction that was already followed before.

Reply #811 Top

Note that when talking about one people (עם אחד) the word used for 'one' is echad but very shortly after in referencing a singular language we see Achat (ושפה אחת).

This scripture text seems to suggest the opposite of your previous response?
End of quote


As I said: ""Achat" (with a "t") means "one" (feminine)."


In Hebrew:

"Safa" ("language") is feminine, hence "safa achat" = "one language".

"3am" ("people") is masculine, hence "3am echad" = "one people".


In Latin:

"one language" = "una lingua" (or old Latin: "una dingua", actually "one tongue")

"one people" = "unus populus"


In German:

"one language" = "eine Sprache"

"one people" = "ein Stamm" (actually "one tribe", but at least it's masculine)
Reply #812 Top
As I said: ""Achat" (with a "t") means "one" (feminine)."
End of quote


I think I am understanding what you were saying....

Let me try to summarize in short.

'One' when used as an adjective needs to match the gender of the noun it is describing (like most languages other than English).

Does that pretty much summarize your point?

Reply #813 Top

Let me try to summarize in short.

'One' when used as an adjective needs to match the gender of the noun it is describing (like most languages other than English).
End of quote


Yes. (Although I don't know if the term "used as an adjective" is strictly correct.)

The same applies to all adjectives and numbers up to ten or so. Also, the number "one" follows the noun while numbers from two precede it.

"bayit echad" = "one house"

"shney batim" = "two houses"


Reply #814 Top

You guys are way ahead of me here...steep learning curve.  I am barely able to read the leeters in words, let alone form grammatical sentences! But, I am still plugging away at prayerbook Hebrew.  Maybe one day I'll tackle learning Hebrew for Torah.  It seems to be such a difficult language.

Be well. 

 

 

 

Reply #815 Top
Yes. (Although I don't know if the term "used as an adjective" is strictly correct.)

The same applies to all adjectives and numbers up to ten or so. Also, the number "one" follows the noun while numbers from two precede it.

"bayit echad" = "one house"

"shney batim" = "two houses"
End of quote


Yeah this is similar to grammatical rules in Russian (Sorry only familiar with English, Spanish, Russian, and some Hebrew).

It seems that we are now on the same wave length. Yay! :CONGRAT:
Reply #816 Top

Yeah this is similar to grammatical rules in Russian (Sorry only familiar with English, Spanish, Russian, and some Hebrew).

It seems that we are now on the same wave length. Yay!
End of quote


Very good!

I am most interested in ancient languages. At home I just speak English. :-)


This is about an iPhone Hebrew vocabulary trainer I have written last Sunday (I am still working on it but it works):

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Home/Blog/Entries/2008/8/4_Vocky.html

It works fine on the device. I thought it could help me learn words on my way to work.


This is a blog entry about my Arabic-Hebrew-English transliterator I wrote for Mac OS:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Not_A_Linguist/Not_A_Linguist_Blog/Entries/2008/6/15_Transliteration_Program.html

It's helpful for transliterating Arabic words into Hebrew letters so I can read them more easily.


And this is a program I wrote last year to help me learn Polish words and conjugation/declination:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Not_A_Linguist/Polished.html

It runs under Mac OS (PowerPC version is broken), Windows, and Linux (x86 only).


And I have my Not A Linguist blog:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Not_A_Linguist/Not_A_Linguist_Blog/Not_A_Linguist_Blog.html

It focuses on English and German as well as Hebrew while occasionally touching Arabic, Latin, and Polish.


But with the Russian and Spanish I cannot assist. :-)

(My day job is computer-related but I am also an excellent sandwich eater!)
Reply #817 Top

You guys are way ahead of me here...steep learning curve. I am barely able to read the letters in words, let alone form grammatical sentences! But, I am still plugging away at prayerbook Hebrew. Maybe one day I'll tackle learning Hebrew for Torah. It seems to be such a difficult language.
End of quote


I am really slow in reading Hebrew. Doesn't help with the singing in shul!

I can form sentences though and write them down. :-)

Hebrew is difficult because it's not Indo-Euroean and forces you to learn new ways of looking at the world (the world we perceive very much depends on the ways we have to form thoughts).

What makes Hebrew different for English-speakers:

1. Pronunciation of Aleph, Khaf, Resh, and Ayin.

2. Grammatical gender and adjectives that follow the gender of the noun.

3. Conjugation of verbs.

4. Conjugation of prepositions!

5. There is no accusative case and the direct object needs a preposition.

6. But sometimes not.

7. The relationship between words based on the same root.

8. All the words are new with no relationship to English words.

9. There is no "to be" in the present tense.

10. There is no word for "to have".

11. Existence and non-existence are identified in the same way.

12. There is no difference between words and things.

13. Double negatives are used.

14. Three numbers instead of two as in English (although this is now rare).

15. Word order is Verb-Subject-Object (although this can be violated).

16. Vowels are not written but sometimes are.

17. Vowels move around the word freely in conjugation.

I think that's it.

Reply #818 Top
Hence if an author 3000 years ago uses the word "eretz", and it is correctly translated as "earth", and the meaning of the word "earth" then changes over time, that shouldn't matter. In Hebrew the meaning of the word "eretz" didn't change. It meant then and means now "land". Nobody said "eretz" or "terra" 2500 years ago and meant the entire planet. People didn't know there was an entire planet.
End of quote




My Douay Rheims version which St.Jerome translated from the Latin and the Latin from the Hebrew has it as "earth". That's all I need to know. When that is put together with the rest of the Genesis account that describes the underground cataclysmic power of that event plus the evidence from outside of Sacred Scripture, then it makes perfect sense that it was indeed a world-wide event.

If the Flood was local, why were the birds included on the Ark...they would have simply flown away. Certainly people had migrated beyond Mesopotamia by the time of the Flood. That means if it was a local flood, then those people beyond the area wouldn't have been affected by it....yet, Scripture tells us that the Flood was God's judgment on all the people for their sins. Christ believed the Flood killed everyone not on the Ark. St.Matt.24: 37-39. The biggest problem with a local Flood is that would mean that God broke His promise not to send a Flood again. We've had huge "local" floods in recent times, Bangladesh, for example where 80% of the country was flooded.

Psalm 103 (104):5-9 is interesting not only in the context of a world-wide flood but also supports that the psalmist 3000 years ago couldn't possibly have had this kind of scientific knowledge and so must have been from God's knowledge.


"Who hast founded the earth upon its own bases; it shall not be moved for ever and ever. 6 The deep like a garment is its clothing; above the mountains shall the waters stand. 7 At thy rebuke they shall flee, at the voice of thy thunder they shall fear. 8 The mountains ascend, and the plains descend into the place which thou hast founded for them. 9 Thou hast set a bound which they shall not pass over, neither shall they return to cover the earth."

Reply #819 Top

My Douay Rheims version which St.Jerome translated from the Latin and the Latin from the Hebrew has it as "earth". That's all I need to know. When that is put together with the rest of the Genesis account that describes the underground cataclysmic power of that event plus the evidence from outside of Sacred Scripture, then it makes perfect sense that it was indeed a world-wide event. If the Flood was local, why were the birds included on the Ark...they would have simply flown away. Certainly people had migrated beyond Mesopotamia by the time of the Flood. That means if it was a local flood, then those people beyond the area wouldn't have been affected by it....yet, Scripture tells us that the Flood was God's judgment on all the people for their sins.
End of quote

 

Yet, Lula, you must try to understand the translations in terms of the knowledge of the translators at the time of the translation. "World" can mean "known world" as was, I think often the case in ancient times.  What a translators work says should never be "good enough" for yoyu, as if to say, "case closed".  The case for knowledge can never be closed.  Always new things are being discovered and learned.

 

I think God wanted to start over again with the people to whom and for whom the scripture was written. Kind of like a social experiment went awry. There may have been many other peoples in many other lands which were not affected by His judgement.

Be well.

Reply #820 Top

My Douay Rheims version which St.Jerome translated from the Latin and the Latin from the Hebrew has it as "earth". That's all I need to know.
End of quote


You really don't read what I write, do you?

I told you that "earth" didn't mean a few hundred years ago what it does today.



You are in "all I need to know" mode too quickly.

Your religion appears to be built on a superficial reading using modern definitions for words of translations written hundreds of years ago of an even older foreign text.

If that's all you need to know that's fine, but don't expect us to be convinced that you are closer to the truth than we.


An aardvark is not a type of pig named after planet earth.

"Terra incognita" was not an undiscovered planet earth.

Eretz Yisrael is not a world.

The American English for "earth" is "ground".


Gee, I hope the meaning of the word "love" never changes in the English language; otherwise the world will have to deal with a hell of a lot of Christians hating everyone.


Liste, I AM SORRY that "eretz" means what it means. I AM SORRY that it doesn't mean "planet earth". It's not my fauly.

You are free to believe whatever you want. And if a modern-day reading of Douay Rheims is your holy book, that's fine.

But it's NOT the Bible.

The Bible says "eretz". "Eretz" means "land". A few hundred years ago, when the English word "earth" referred to "ground" (and the planet earth), it could also be translated with "earth". But not any more (unless you speak British English where the word still preserves the meaning of "surface").

In your Douay Rheims Latin vulgate, "eretz" is translated with "terra". "Terra" is Latin for "land" or "earth" in the surface sense. Only later was its meaning expanded to include our entire planet.

But if you want to believe in "planet earth", be aware that the Hebrew original says "land", that the Latin and English translations you do not consistently translate "eretz" as "earth" but made decisions regarding when it meant what, and that "earth" in English did not mean "planet earth" a few hundred years ago.

You can read it as "flood on planet EARTH" and "LAND of Israel", as two different words. But know that G-d's words were not two different words but one and the same.

The "earth of Israel" is the ground Israel was built on. And the "earth" flooded was the ground Noah lived on.

When G-d says "eretz" and Douay Rheims decides if He meant "land" or "earth" it's a problem, because Douay Rheims is not G-d.




Reply #821 Top

Yet, Lula, you must try to understand the translations in terms of the knowledge of the translators at the time of the translation. "World" can mean "known world" as was, I think often the case in ancient times.
End of quote


Sodaiho, you don't understand the severity of the problem.

Even if the translators had known what we know today, the remains a problem in as much as "earth" then did NOT mean what it does today.

Latin "terra" meant "region" or "land" originally. Hence the words "terra incognita" on maps (for unrecognised LAND) and hence the English loanword from Latin "territory". (And a "terrarium" does not contain a planet either.)

Only slowly did the word "earth" develop its new meaning "planet earth" over the last few centuries. And it did so at differing speeds in different languages.

In American English the word "ground" has very much replaced the word "earth" for the original meaning. British English still uses "earth" for what Americans call "ground".

In German the word "Erde" (cognate, i.e. derived from the same Germanic word) has only less than half completed the transition and most people would think "floor" rather than "our planet" when you say the word. In German you literally say "my cup fell onto the earth" and it means "fell onto the ground". It's dying out, I think, but it's still at the stage where the word is mostly understood to mean "ground" rather than "planet earth".

The translation as "earth" (meaning "ground") was completely correct and still is, IF one knows that of the several meanings of the word "earth" it is the "surface" meaning that is meant, not the "planet earth" meaning.

The Afrikaans word "Aardvark" means, literally, an "earth piglet". The word does NOT refer to a piglet that has a special connection to planet earth (for example a piglet that lives on earth as opposed to those that live on Mars), but it refers to a piglet that has a special connection to _the ground_ (as opposed to other piglets that do not have that particular connection; perhaps they don't dig as much).

I don't know how better to explain this...

The word "girl" used to mean a child of either sex, in Middle English. Now it means a female child (or even any young unmarried female). If the word "girls" were used to translate "yaledim", the translation would be correct (because "girls" means "young children of either sex"). But a few hundred years after the translation was written, the word "girl" developed a second meaning: only female children. And at some point the first meaning died out.

And if the Bible made a law for "yaledim" (i.e. boys and girls) and the English translation said only "girls", we would have the same argument. And Lula would tell us that she knows what a girl is and that is good enough for her, and the original meaning would be lost, because of people like Lula.

So we have two problems here:

1. Hebrew words do not perfectly map onto English words. Any translation therefor involves interpreting the text (and hence changing its truth value).

2. Hebrew words change their meaning as do English words. And once we have an original and a translation and both contain words that likely change meaning into different directions.

The first problem causes both "eretz" and "adama" to be translated as "earth". Germanic languages have only one word for the surface and the material. (On the other hand Hebrew has only one word for "thing" and "word" - "davar".)

The second problem causes the meaning of the text to change. If we freeze the meanings at a certain point in time it might be too early or too late. (The method I use is common sense.) "Shana" meant "something that repeats" at some point and "year" at a later age. Both meanins co-existed for a long time. The trick is to figure out when it means what. As I said, common sense tells us that it meant "something that repeats" when describing that somebody is 600 shana old and "year" when it says that some king ruled for 30 such.

(Incidentally, the plural "shanim" appears to be used in the Bible when the word means "year" while the singular "shana" is used when it means "something that repeats". But I haven't found all occurences of the word yet.)

But there is solid evidence that the meaning of "eretz" did NOT change from "planet earth" to "land".

First, people 3000 years didn't know about the "planet earth" they only saw the surface, i.e. land, as opposed to the heavens (the thing above it). Hence they could NOT have used a word to describe something they didn't know existed as a thing. Hence "eretz" could only mean the surface, not the planet. Also devidence from other languages suggests that the meaning would change FROM surface TO planet rather then vice versa, since mankind learned about the surface BEFORE they learned about it being a planet.

Second, G-d knew the difference between the surface and the planet and hence would have used TWO DIFFERENT word to describe them. (And He does, in fact, use the term "haKol 3olam" when He refers to the entire world.) The reason He used THE SAME WORD was because He was talking about THE SAME THING. (And, in Hebrew there is only one word for "word" and "thing" anyway, making this even more ridiculous.)

If anybody thinks that an Israelite reading Noah's story in 1000 BCE had an image in mind of a ball completely surrounded by water, I cannot help any more.

Reply #822 Top

There may have been many other peoples in many other lands which were not affected by His judgement.
End of quote


Yes, according to what G-d said.

But Douay Rheims says something else and made the text less ambiguous on that subject.

And who is G-d compared to Douay Rheims?

Yes, I am being sarcastic. I think it is fully deserved.

I understand my humour is a bit earthy (and I don't mean "typical for this planet").

I am thinking of getting a terrarium (but not to keep planets in) or maybe buy an aardvark (not a piglet typical for this planet).

But I enjoy a good down-to-earth discussion (not a discussion that makes us fly towards the planet) and in that spirit I shall quote from Wikipedia's article about the (planet) earth:



The name Earth originates from the 8th century Anglo-Saxon word erda, which means ground or soil. In Old English the word became eorthe, then erthe in Middle English. Earth was first used as the name of the sphere of the Earth around 1400.

End of quote


And I shall quote the online Latin dictionary at

http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=terr&ending=a



terra -ae f. [earth , land, ground, soil; a country, land, region]; 'orbis terrarum', [the whole world].

End of quote


Incidentally, there exists a perfectly nice Latin word for "earth, the world":



tellus -uris f. [earth , soil, land; a country; the world].

End of quote


It's perfectly simple.

"Eretz" doesn't mean "planet earth".

It was translated as "terra".

"Terra" doesn't mean "planet earth".

It was translated as "earth".

"Earth", then, did not mean "planet earth".

Only now, for a few hundred years, does "earth" mean "planet earth" (and a few other things)

For thousands of years G-d and translators have carefully avoided saying "the entire world" and made sure to refer to "ground" only. Until modern Christianity claimed that ONE of the modern meanings of the word "earth" was the true meaning of "eretz" 3000 years ago.

Yes, that makes me angry. I had to listen to American Christians telling me that the Bible must be read literally and when I call their bluff it turns out they don't.

Read "eretz" literally and you don't get a world-wide flood.

Read "shana" literally and you don't necessarily get a 600-year old man. He might just be 600 months old. Which is more likely?

Read "yom" literally and you don't necessarily get a "day". (In fact above I refer to several statement in the Bible where "yom" isn't even translated as "day".)

Read the Bible literally and you don't get the results you get when you read an English translation written several hundred years ago using modern meanings of the words.

Why is reading a translation and applying modern meanings to the words closer to the truth than reading the Hebrew text?

I think I understand the joke about "English being good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for us" now.



Reply #823 Top
And if Lula again answers without showing evidence for her reading my explanation about the meaning of the words "earth" and "terra" I probably won't answer; unless by doing so I can make things clearer for others.

I am sick and tired of addressing the same issues again and again, as if I had never done that before.

If you disagree with what I say, tell me what's wrong. Don't just ignore it and repeat your stupid thesis.
Reply #824 Top

What a translator's work says should never be "good enough" for you, as if to say, "case closed". The case for knowledge can never be closed. Always new things are being discovered and learned.
End of quote


On my list of home-made wisdoms

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Home/Wisdom.html

I have one that says


Religion is a smart man’s admission that he cannot know everything. Religious fundamentalism is a stupid man’s admission that he thinks he knows enough.
-- Moshe Wilkinson
End of quote


Can anybody convince me that Christians today (some of them) are not exactly doing that, thinking they know enough?
Reply #825 Top
Counting the word doesn't help, that's just substitute for real research. The word "eretz" is used a lot in the Bible and is variously translated as "earth" or "land", but it always meant the same, and "eretz Yisrael" is not the planet Israel
End of quote


Well I saw a rainbow today. Do you know what the rainbow symbolized in scripture Leauki? If this was as you say, a local flood instead of global one, why do I see the rainbow here? Shouldn't the rainbow be a local one? Shouldn't it just be seen in Iraq?

Yet, Lula, you must try to understand the translations in terms of the knowledge of the translators at the time of the translation. "World" can mean "known world" as was, I
End of quote


and this could be somewhat true as well. I mean obviously there was no one living here in the States yet. Most likely other parts of the world were uninhabited as well because until Gen 11 we don't see much movement as all were still speaking one language. But even having said this, I do believe in the global flood because that's what makes the most sense regarding climate and the longevity of the people changing after this flood. There seems to be a breaking up of the earth and the heaven that started all things rolling. It wasn't about just rain coming down.

I think God wanted to start over again with the people to whom and for whom the scripture was written. Kind of like a social experiment went awry. There may have been many other peoples in many other lands which were not affected by His judgement.
End of quote


Perhaps but not so much as a social experiment from God's perspective as it is ours. We should learn from our past but sad to say, rarely do. We should say "been there, done that." We're heading down the same road now and I believe that's what Jesus meant when he said "just like in the days of Noah."
You can read it as "flood on planet EARTH" and "LAND of Israel", as two different words. But know that G-d's words were not two different words but one and the same.

The "earth of Israel" is the ground Israel was built on. And the "earth" flooded was the ground Noah lived on.
End of quote


It doesn't matter if it's written earth or land in the Hebrew when you look at the context. Land can mean earth can it not? What Lula is saying is Jerome, who was very proficient with the Hebrew language chose to put earth instead of land. No diff in my book. The earth was flooded....the land was flooded. Until you read the context you may not understand if it were local or global. REading the whole story one can understand quite easily this was NO local flood. A first grader could understand this and KNOW or NOT know Hebrew.

Can anybody convince me that Christians today (some of them) are not exactly doing that, thinking they know enough?
End of quote


I can only vouch for myself. I am constantly learning. I'll never get there in this lifetime. Over the years I had to learn to put my bias aside and examine a passage for what it says, regardless if it fit my theology or not. Because of this, I had to change some of my ways of thinking. It's not easy to have a theology you've had ingrained in you for years and let it go. The Professor who died recently of cancer, Randy Pausch who wrote "The Last Lecture" summed it up perfectly. One thing that made a profound impact on him was that people do not want the truth. I concur. We want to believe what we want to believe regardless if it's truth or not.

Sometimes it's frustrating when I see others going down the same path I already went down knowing they are going down the wrong road. I went down that road, saw the dead end, turned around and met many others on the way out. So all I can do is try and warn them to tell them they are wasting their time going down that particular road. But of course, we all want to make our own mistakes. I'm sure I was warned at times as well and didn't listen. I just wish we could learn from each other but I'm afraid it all comes down to trust.