Well, Joseph Smith definitely existed and it's easily proven. He's one upping Jesus on that account.

~Zoo

Kingbee posts: you're not suggesting john the apostle authored 'revelations'?[/quote]

Although no one knows for sure, yes, I think it was St.John the Apostle who wrote the last book of Sacred Scripture. I base this upon Apoc. 1:9-10 and the writings of St. Irenaeus, Jerome and Eusebuis.




History itself is physical evidence. Look up Jesus Christ in any encyclopedia or textbook. Historically, He is there. It's certain that a Jew named Jesus grew up in the town of Nazerath and traveled through Galilee and Judea from about 30 to 33 AD. It's certain that He really lived, really claimed to be God, proved that claim by His supreme command over the laws of nature, taught the Christian religion, and obliged man to accept that religion. It's all there....the written history of Christ begins with 5 reputable historians who record the events, Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul...besides them the Roman historian, Tacitus, writes about Christ and well as does the Jewish historian Josephus.




The tomb was found as were the Shroud and other burial cloths....



You should come out of your dream world.

Even subjecting the Gospels as books to the same historical criticism as we apply to other books, we see they prove to be reliable historical documents.

Yeah, we can prove Joseph Smith existed. Which is proof that he is not above any mortal human.

Burn.

did john the apostle often use a location-based aka (as in 'john of patmos')? having decided to go to the trouble of identifying himself, why so coy? a book by 'john the apostle' woulda had much greater impact, no?

no...physical evidence is physical evidence and is totally objective. history is subjective.




several of them have been 'found'. to which of those are you referring?



faith doesn't require facts. by the same token, facts require no faith.

there's nothin factual about the supernatural. those who insist otherwise diminish the value of both.

Yeah, we can prove that Jesus existed. Which is proof that he is not above any mortal human.

Lula?
Just because Jesus performed miracles doesn't mean what he claimed was true. If that were the case, that anyone who can perform 'miracles' can claim to be God and therefore that's proof that he/she is God, what about Criss Angel, Mindfreak? He can levitate, walk on water, light himself on fire, make people disappear, and more. If he were to claim to be the Second Coming of Jesus, would you believe him simply because of what he's done?

Do you see now? We're not arguing that Jesus existed. We're saying that there are things in all religions that defy science, that are believed without "proof." So what we don't understand is why you require proof of our religion when you don't need proof of yours.

"faith is to hope for things which are not seen, which are true."

"Seeing isn't believing. Believing is seeing."

It's a double standard, plain and simple. Let us worship, let us have that faith, and we'll let you have yours.

Cedar just burned you back.




~Zoo

Julius Ceasar existed right? How do you know? Because history tells us so. 

Here's some more history....it doesn't seem subjective to me....

Christ lived and died in a remote corner of the Roman World and had caused no political disturbance. The Romans had only contempt for the Jews and reports connected with Jewish religious happenings held very little interest for them. However, Suetonius mentions Christ in his biography of Claudius, Tacitus writes of Christ's execution under Pontius Pilate; Phlegon, the freedman of Hadrian, records the eclipse of the sun at the death of Christ; Celsus, the pagan philosopher boasted of much knowledge concerning the life of Christ, Pliny, the Younger, mentions Christians and their doctrines, and Josephus a Jewish historian, records Christ's death on the cross under Pontious Pilate and His appearance on the third day after His death to His disciples.

You can speculate that the Gospels are hearsay and reject what Christ did and said, but after 2000 years they retain the power to convert. Who else do you know whom men have died for, not just then,  but throughout every age of history and will continue until the end of the world? Jaws should drop at that fact.

Is there  Kingbee who posted this on April 21, 2008? Look in the mirror do you see yourself?

If there were no God, there wouldn't be Kingbee to dispute His existence...and that's only one  fact about the Supernatural ALmighty God.

Another is taken from universal reasoning. The universal belief  that God exists can no more be wrong than the reasoning of a newborn baby to cry when he is hungry. God's creation is so impressed upon us that everyone no matter where they were born or who they are instinctively believe that there is a God. The truth is in possession. Man don't have to persuade themselves there is a God, it's the other way around....they have to try to persuade themselves there is no God. We don't have to grow into the idea of God, but endeaver to grow out of it.

Again, truth is in possession. Saying there is nothing factual about God is not possessing the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CEDARBIRD POSTS:

Would you clarify this.....Is this what Mormonism teaches?.... that Christ is not above any mortal human?

 

Heh, you assert your belief is fact and present that "fact" as evidence to someone you're trying to convince?

That's not a very efficient argument.

I could just as easily say that if I did not exist, then kingbee wouldn't be here today because I created him....and that's a fact about the AlLmighty me. It's a fallacious argument.


~Zoo

Really? So do Mormons believe Christ told lies?

 

They can make that claim , Cedearbird, but they would be either delusional or lieing.

 

Knock, knock, Cedarbird, it's time for a reality check.....Criss Angel and Mindfreak are clever artists who are good at doing magic tricks and illusions. I can assure you that if I took them to a pool...and said go walk on it.....guess what? Wouldn't happen...

As to your last question, it's utterly ridiculous....

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but who has Jesus's bones. I can get to view Joseph Smith's within a month if I try really really hard, I'm sure. I may need to dig up a grave, but hey, whatever it takes!

CEDARBIRD POSTS:

I agree we aren't 'arguing' but we are debating, discussing whether or not Christ existed and evidence for that...so yes, we are doing just that...

Let's stay with topic of this blog....differences between Mormonism and Christianity. I understand that there are no proofs for some  Mormon beliefs, but  what in Christianity is believed without "proof"?

We prove Christ's life and works from history....we prove His divinity from His life and works.

If Mormon beliefs are true, then it stands to reason that you should have no trouble with proof...

Everyone constantly requires proof of Christianity....that's what a good bit of this disscussion has been about, haven't you noticed?

As far as Catholicism...I'm gladly ready, willing and able to provide proof....

How is it a double standard? No one here is attempting to deny you your  Mormon worship and faith....you are free to practice it....

In his article, Erathoniel has pointed out 6 ways that Mormonism deviates from or contradicts Christianity.  As to those Mormon contradictions, his last sentence says it all.

Both can't be true.

1Tim. 2:1, 4-5

"I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men.....God...who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth...for there is one God, ..."

You know very well Cedarbird that Mormonism teaches there is "a" God which directly contradicts this passage. Believing that Christ is only 'a' God instead the One God is no small thing. When Mormons believe this....have they come to the knowledge of truth?

 

Darn it, you beat me to it.

Yeah, though, you pretty much summed up what I have to say.

When someone agrees with me, I feel fuzzy inside. It's rare.

If you took Jesus to a pool and asked him to walk on it, he probably wouldn't. He doesn't do miracles on demand either.

I don't do miracles on demand either.

 

How many times are you gonna ask this question to get the exact same answer you always get?

Of course we don't teach or believe that. She was being hypothetical. Stop being so combative and obtuse, one-trick-pony you.

Ha, you've got a good point.

The big difference is that He CAN AND DID walk on water...

He even changed water into the best wine...in a nano second...

and for you evolutionists, think about it....what age was this wine?...it was just made yet tasted as though it had been years old.

Christ's personality is His greatest miracle. Nothing Christ has said or done has been supreceded by modern science or human experience. As the younger people would say, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ absolutely ROCKS.

Lula posts:

SanChonino,

This is what Cederbird wrote:



I may seem obtuse to you, however, this seems pretty straightforward to me.

In all honesty, as far as I can tell, there is no way of knowing that it was a hypothetical statement.



Okay, I'll take your word for it....

Perhaps, SanChonino, you will defend Mormonism's belief that Christ is "a" God, address my assertion that Christianity and Mormonism can't both be true and answer my question below?

I've said it once, I'll say it twice - you, Lula, are a one-trick pony whose only reason for participating on this forum has been to sling mud at the Mormon faith, purposely bringing up things that have been answered for you at least a dozen times by ParaTed2k.

That's why I'm not going to touch your questions. You're viperous, venomous, and only looking to prop yourself up haughtily in your 'faith'.

/me walks away from this discussion, once again, sure to see more vitriol from these suckers . . .

Oh, so you were there and personally tasted it? I didn't know you were a time traveler.

~Zoo

FYI Zoo.

It says in scripture when the guests tasted this new wine (which Christ had just made from water) that the host of the party saved the best for last. That's where she's getting her info from.

Normally you bring out the good stuff first, and then when they become so drunk they can't really know any better they bring out the cheap stuff. Christ did the opposite. He made a wine that was superior than that which had already been served.

Wait...doesn't this:



Kinda mean that this:



Can't possibly be trusted because these people were blind drunk and couldn't tell the difference between good and bad wine?

~Zoo

 

Thanks KFC, for explaining this.

PS...This is the first time I seen the explanation of bringing out the good stuff first, and then when they become so drunk they can't really know any better they bring out the cheap stuff.

Exactly, superior wines are aged.

God created the earth and so the earth was new and yet seemed to some as though it had been in existence for billions of years.....which just goes to show God prodes us with truly amazing mysteries.

Well, this is yet another benefit to reading Sacred Scripture! It can take the reader into the past like no other Book can!  

 

 

 

 

I have yet to see anyone refute that claim.