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I didn't know Jane Fonda is a Christian.

My husband can't stand her because of the way she acted during Vietnam.

If children can be born with two sexual organs, and a host of other genetic problem..isn't it possible they could be born gay?

I used to think it was bogus, (because all the gay people I knew had been sexually molested at some point in their lives) but then a really good friend of mine had a son.  I watched him from the time he was eighteen months on...he loves everything girly.  He wanted to play with Barbies and baby dolls, his gestures were very effeminate.

So my girlfriend and her husband took him to see a psychologist when he was six to help curb this apparently girly boy.  He went for many many years, a long with church counseling, everything they could do.

Well the kid is grown now and guess what?  He likes boys.

It was easy for me to say its a lifestyle choice, until I watched how my girl friend's family struggled. 

I don't think its normal, but I wonder if there can be some sort of "defect" which causes it.  We live in a fallen world after all, disease and birth defects abound.  So why couldn't there be some mutant gene that makes a person desire the same sex?

So now he's grown and struggles mightily.  In fact, he has turned his back on the church because he can not reconcile the two, and the church isn't about to accept it.

I love him.  I watched him grow up.  And it kills me to see him hurting.  He finds the act of kissing a woman disgusting, being intimate with a woman repulsive.  He tried dating girls, but it grossed him out (he says).

He laughs and says if he ever comes back to the faith it will have to be as a Catholic Priest.  Not because they like young boys, heh, but because he would truly be celibate the rest of his life.

All that to say, I was once so sure, and now I wonder.  Is there a genetic disorder or something out there?  (He also has an uncle who is gay, but cut off contact with the family long before my friend's baby was born.)

It's hard.

Gore has a segment on 60 minutes this weekend, where he calls the GW sceptics stupid and ignorant. It would seem he is getting desperate. His snake oil is no longer selling.

It is hard.  I grew up with an uncle who was gay.  But I really believe the biggest sex organ is the brain. 

It all starts with the brain.  They can't seem to find a gay gene and all the instances investigated seem to involve an experience in their lives that trigger this.  Sometimes just because they have a more sensitive side they believe themselves to be gay after years of being treated as such.  Sometimes it is triggered by family dynamics and some pinpoint their relationship in the family as the key that started them along this particular path. 

I think your friends should have done nothing for their boy and let him play with dolls.  That doesn't mean he's gay.  It means he likes to play with girl toys.  They may have inadvertently helped him choose this path by making him think he was gay because he was more sensitive than the other boys...therefore he must be gay.  I've seen this and have heard about this type of thing before.  Again, it starts with the brain and from a very young age these parents may have been training him instead of just letting him be.    Sometimes a psychologist can do more harm than good.  I've seen this recently with a friend taking her son to one for a physical problem and the kid got worse.  It's almost like he's thinking about it more.  Sometimes taking the "sit back and watch quietly" approach is the best thing to do. 

I've known some men that you would swear were gay....their mannerisms were more in line with what we would expect a woman to have than a man but yet they were married and very hetero.  Sometimes we are floored when we see a "macho" guy like Rock Hudson and go....."what the heck?"  My kids had what I swore must have been a "gay" teacher.  I was wrong.  I couldn't believe anyone would marry him......heh!  I mean I like my guy to be manly ya know?  But in all reality this was a very nice married girly guy.  Weird because we are being sold this bill of goods. 

I've seen girly boys become heteros as well as boys I'd have no idea they would even consider being gay turn homosexual.  You can have men that are more girly or feminine and some women that are considered tom-boys and not be gay.   So that's not a prerequisite. 

Scripture calls it sin.  So I go with that.  Nobody in the scientific or medical community can really pinpoint this and up until 1973 homosexuality was listed under a list of Psycholoical Disorders.  Robert Spitzer who was President of the APA at the time (I believe) helped get this off the books of mental disorders and was considered the darling of the gay movement.  A few years back, he changed his mind after seeing much further research and had to practically go into hiding because of the backlash from the "agenda."  

Even if one is predisposed to this whatever we choose to call it, from a Christian POV it's considered sin and against nature.  So to participate would be something that God disapproves of and is something no Christian should participate in. 

 

 

Is it the same sex thing that's the sin, being with the same sex or the actual act do ya think?

One more thing...I never understood why God spared Lot. Lot offered his DAUGHTERS to the wanna-b rapists....sure he sheltered visiting angels, but is that better than offering your innocent daughters to a mob of rapists?  

The LDS church teaches that same-sex attraction happens. It's not a sin to feel the attraction, because you don't have any control over your impulses, per se. The sin comes from what we do with those impulses.

I mean, heck, I have impulses about girls I'm not married to quite frequently. It's what I do with those impulses that a)constitutes sin or not, and b)defines who I am.

So the sin is in the act? Lets use sodomy here. So sodomy between two guys, no-no. What about sodomy between you and your wife? Same act, different partner.

It's not being feminine if you're a guy that's the sin.  It's not being masculine as a girl that's a sin.  It's committing a sexual act with the same gender that is against God's ordained plan for mankind. 

what Lot did was wrong.  But look what Lot did.  Have you noticed the chain of events in Lot's life:

1.  Gen 13:10-Lot lifted up his eyes (lust of the eyes)  and chose the best and Abraham took second best.  Notice how this land was compared to Egypt.  Egypt in scripture represents the world.  God warned Abraham to stay out of Egypt. 

2.  13:12-Lot got closer and closer to Sodom.  First he dwealt in cities of the plain and then pitched his tent outside of Sodom.....not quite going inside.  Probably knowing it wasn't a Godly type city to live in.

3.  19:1-now we see Lot sitting at the gate.  That was akin to being town selectman.  These guys who sat at the gate were the judges of the city.  They made the decisions that needed to be made.   So Lot, once pitching his tent outside the city was now living inside the city.  Remember he is the only Christian in this whole city.  Who was affecting who here? 

So what we see from Lot is that he was a carnal Christian.  He got closer and closer to the world until he was in the world.  He represents those Christians who may be a Christian in name only and are content to sit in the gate of the world making worldly decisions instead of Godly ones. 

 

Well...that's just how God rolls sometimes. Hey, offer your daughters up for rape, no big deal, you sheltered complete and utter strangers...and wanted your own flesh and blood to take their place in the rape orgy. It's all cool.

Oh wait...no it's not.

~Zoo

no, it's not Zoo and your bias is showing. Of course you don't understand the rest of the story. Hopefully you'll do some reading as in Gen 13-19 to get the truth.

Just because something is written in scripture it doesn't mean God approves of it. In fact that's one very good reason for believing this book wasn't written by man. If it were up to man, they would have taken all the bad stuff out and covered it up to make these believers look better. Scripture shows us their faults....big and open for all to see.

We can learn from other's mistakes.

This is how I read it also, but always like to hear other views.



And yet Lot was classified as righteous by the two angels of God. As the only righteous man in the city.

I get he lived on the plains of the Jordan because grazing was great there. But if he fell into this type of carnality, would he then be called righteous?

I doubt it...all religious texts and in fact most novels always point out the fatal flaws of their characters...that's what makes a good book.   In order to relate to the characters they must appear to have human traits...both positive and negative.  They make mistakes, they feel pain, they screw up, they die...any book that glosses over that is either a children's happy feel good book or just crappy writing.

If some halfwit wrote the Bible where all Christians are perfect, then it wouldn't sell at all.   People like strife, tragedy, problems...people that aren't perfect.  Pretty much any random novel today will have some kind of sins or mistakes made by the main character and/or supporting characters.  It's written like any other book, except with ample deus ex machina.

~Zoo

So what's Jesus' fatal flaw, Zoo?

Oh my gosh Tova...don't you see......I didn't even see this before as a teaching lesson. But Lot isn't righteous because of himself. We are not righteous because of what we do....(our righteousness is as filthy rags). Our righteousness is imputed (added to our account-a banking term)by what Christ did. Before that we were imputed with Adam's sin. Read Romans 5:12-21.

So Lot too is declared righteous (by these angels)...not because of his actions...but because of his faith in God. He would be the one Paul talks about that would be saved but all his works would be burned up. This is a strong case for election believers like me. To show his faith in God, he was even willing to give his daughters up as a sacrifice (an example of living with pagans).

Thanks for the lesson!

Ha! I did it! I made you admit it's the "Good Book." Good. Step 1. Now....for step 2.......    



well.....we can't all be perfect now can we? Can you imagine what Jesus' brothers and sisters usd to say about Him to Mom?

"Mother.......he's just too perfect!"

Not quite. Thinking about it is as good as doing the action. Unfortunately, our sin nature lets us slip into thoughts of sin really easily.

It makes me even more in awe of Jesus to realize that when offered all of the Earth's kingdoms, he didn't even dream about what it would be like. No thought of it.

Now, Satan can put thoughts in your head, but those aren't your thoughts - and putting them immediately out of your head again is resisting the temptation to sin. But that is very, very difficult to do.

With that boy, I can only speculate. I think KFC is on the right track with it, honestly. Basically, he was doing his thing, being who he was, and his parents decided that he shouldn't be who he was and tried to change him into something he might not have been born to be. That sucks. Unfortunately, parents do this kind of thing all the time. While their kids are busy living their lives, parents are busy planning their kids' lives. Who cares what toys he plays with. He's six. Why are their Barbies to play with if he doesn't have an older sister? If he does, why would you think he was doing anything but mimicking her? I know a girl who mimicks her older brother, and is very wrestly and tough. She's 3. Should we be concerned she's going to be a lesbian? NO! She has siblings that affect her environment.

If you try to force someone to be something else, they will rebel. But they will want to rebel even more fully from what you want for them. So by messing with one part of his personality, you make the rest of it go against what you deem right for it.

I thought pretty much the exact same thing.  The angels declared him righteous (as messengers of God) and so he was saved.  But he didn't do anything overly righteous, at least that I could tell. 

I don't think it was righteousness that led him to offer his daughters.  But he was declared righteous and so was treated as such...just like believers, just like Abraham was credited with righteousness for believing in God.

 

 

Exactly Jay. I agree. You said it well.

I just wanted to add something to what you said about Satan putting thoughts in our heads. This is very true...and the reason part of the armour is a Helmet. We need to protect our thoughts and mind from the evil one. That's why we were instructed to put on the helmet of salvation.

That's why as a family we decided not to watch R rated movies when the kids were young. We still don't do this and we turn the tv off if it gets raunchy and evil.

It really does alot of damage to "works based believers" doesn't it?

Probably that whole dying thing. It was fatal, y'know.

He was one character out of many, though. Of course he's not considered a "human" character either. He's your fantastical deus ex machina...he was God come to earth to fix all the trouble. Actually...he was more of a just a God rather than being in a machine.

~Zoo

There is more to the story but I won't go into ALL of it.

His mom is a social worker.  She bought him barbies with trucks because she didn't see a problem either.  What was their big red flag was the self hate he started portraying...he said things like "I hate being a boy."  "I wish I was a girl."  when he was three years old.

They took him to a shrink originally because he was sooo girly, but the shrink wanted to focus on the self hate issues instead.  It's too detailed to get into here, but I can assure you his shrink wasn't turning him gay..hahaha...sexuality wasn't even discussed into well into his teen years when he brought it up.  Even though his dad wanted it addressed sooner.:P

 

 

Ah here we go...a little dictionary action.

deus ex machina

1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

There we go...2 and 3 fit Jesus pretty well.

~Zoo

We just say Zoo...

Jesus was 100% man...and 100% God.

Now...figure that one out....LOL.



well it certainly sounds like a tough one. Who ran the household? Mom or Dad? You know what I mean? That's a factor as well and one that I've seen attributed to in someone's particular case.

I remember babysitting three boys for three years all summer long when I was a teen. One boy, the middle one, was definitely girly in nature. He liked to stay in and cook with me instead of playing outside. He wasn't made of tough stuff but was of a more serious nature. I never did find out how he turned out. I always wondered. But now after seeing what I've seen his more sensitive side doesn't necessitate his turning homosexual.

Parents are more likely to have that effect than a psychiatrist any day of the week.



Thanks for the definitions. But they don't fit, because he wasn't introduced suddenly. He was introduced back in the prophecies. Foretold of and foretold of until the prophets were blue in the face. Then, he came, expectedly!

Well, he was God in man, then.  Still does the same thing.  An improbable character that comes to resolve the world's ills.

~Zoo