Lula.

She is considered co-redeemer. That's worship. You can deny this all you want but I have seen co-redeemer attached to her name numerous times in Catholic literature as well as Catholic bibles as old as the 60's. That's worship and putting her on equal status....a created being with God....as co-redeemer?



What does Tova find objectionable? Probably the same as I do. The focus. Here it's on Mary, not God.

It's the and dead part I have issues with Lula. We are not to commune with the dead.

Who do you think God meant when he said the dead? He meant those who have died before us. He doesn't command us to only talk with "good Christians" who are dead...He commands the exact opposite. We are to have no dealings with the dead.

Every time you ask a dead person to do anything, or attempt to communicate, you are participating in what is despicable to God, something He mentions specifically as being despicable, you are in fact the Witch of Endor.

Just because no spirit arises and answers you doesn't make you're less guilty of communing with the dead, it just makes you bad at it.

I don't see how you can rationalize praying to dead people. Ever.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.


KFC POSTS #176

Well, KFC you'll have to blame God for focusing this prayer on the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The first two sentences are taken directly from Scripture, St. Luke, who was inspired by God to write what he wrote. The first sentence, the angel Gabriel's saluation to the BVMary. The 2nd sentence was by St. Elizabeth who was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Remember St.John the Baptist leaped in her womb at this moment? So here you can plainly see that God Himself focused on the Blessed Virgin Mary when He chose her to be the Mother of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.



"Holy Mary"...this is certainly true as Scripture tells us she was "full of grace" and thus holy.

"Mother of God"...yes, true again. She was mother of Christ and He is God.

"pray for us sinners"...here we ask for her intercession for us sinners...

"Now"....we ask pray for us to God now in this short life..now that we are being attacked 24/7 by the snares of the devil, the flesh and the world.

"and at the hour of our death."...pray for us at our turning point...when our lot for ever and ever will be Heaven or Hell.

"Amen."...So be it.



Here is a suggestion:

Earnestly pray in Jesus our Good Shepherd's name, that in His incomprehensible Mercy, He grant the grace of a much deeper sympathy of opening your mind towards His Blessed Mother.

When He speaks, don't harden your heart. Be open and obey.

KFC POSTS:

The Church has always taught and I believe with the Church that Christ is the only Redeemer and the one principal Mediator to which we owe all. Period.

However, there are very many second cooperators in His work. The BVMary's work was to be our co-redemptress, that is to cooperate in CHrist's redemptive work. St.Paul teaches this. If all Christians are members of Christ, and are called upon, as St.Paul says, to fill up the what is wanting to the suffering of Christ, then you can be sure that as Mary, His Mother, was more closely associated with Christ than we are, so she is more closely associated with His redemptive work. As members of His Mystical Body we each are to be in Christ, with Him and through Him. We are to take up our cross in the sufferings of Christ. The Blessed Virgin Mary cooperated in the redemptive work in a way quite special to herself....always and everywhere infinitely subordinate to Christ. By a special title, therefore, we call her Co-redemptress.

As our first mother Eve brought us forth to misery and death, our second mother, Mary, in bringing forth our Savior brought us forth to happiness and salvation. The BVMary's consent was asked by God when the time for the Incarnation was at hand. She freely consented to the full work of Christ from the cave in Bethlehem to the Cross of Calvary. She provided the very Precious Blood that was shed for us. In union with Christ, she had her own passion, and Simeon rightly predicted to her, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,"Thy own soul a sword will pierce." With, in and through the work of Christ, her sufferings also contributed secondarily towards our redemption.

To all of us, Christ said, in the person of St.John, "Behold thy mother." We Catholics therefore regard the Blessed Mother of Christ our spiritual Mother, regarding her the love and devotion of children.

In bringing forth Christ, she brought us forth to life, she is the model of every virtue and should be to every Christian woman the glory of womanhood. All this tells us what she is for...She is our spiritual mother in Heaven and she fulfills the duties of a Mother, winning for us by her intercession that grace of Christ which is life to our souls and which, please God, will mean eternal life in the end.

Lula posts:

In the above I should have written....just as they seek the intercession FOR all good Christians, living and dead, for all are alive in Christ.

Tova7 posts:

I absolutely agree we are not to commune with the dead...to do so is diabolical.

Scripture provides cases of departed souls' being allowed by God or even sent by God to encounter the living. See St.Matt. 17:1-9. After our Lord's Resurrection, a number of departed saints returned to Jerusalem and appeared to many" See St.Matt 27:52-53.

Please, asking for the Saint's intercession is not an attempt to commune or conjure up the dead. It simply acknowledges that those spiritual souls who are in Heaven, perfected by Christ, are able and willing to help us by God's grace, after all, He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Catholics don't pray to the dead, we pray for the souls in Pugatory, like the Jewish General Machabees did that they might be freed from venial sin. "turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be blotted out." 2Mach.12:39-40. I mentioned that KFC should do a study on this for it explains that the Jews pray for the dead. It's for the same reason they and we pray for the living. It's an act of fraternal charity (Love). They were confident that this spiritual work would benefit those who had died, just as it would benefit someone who is still living.

The first Christians who were Jews maintained this "excellent and noble" practice. St.Paul prayed for a friend Onesiphorus who was deceased. 2Tim. 1:16-18.

So, again, understand that we are not praying to the dead, but for the dead. It's a faulty assumption that those who are in Heaven don't recognize our prayers or for those in Hell are useless.

As we know from Apoc. 21:27 that nothing unclean can enter Heaven. Some of those souls who go to Heaven still need purification before they're ready to be with God forever and ever. Charity demands that we should pray for the dead and humility demands that we should ask others to pray for us when we die.

I like how you used "however" Lula. You just nullified your first sentence by doing so. Besides...co-redeemer status is co-redeemer status. You might want to define the word "co."

Besides.....I cut and pasted (a long time ago) for you right from the Vatican See website a paragragh that left nothing to the imagination when it comes to the CC's worship of Mary. I'd have to go back and dig that up....but since I've already done that and you bypassed it to come back with this yet once again....there's no need for me is there?

You are NOT going to convince me of Mary worship. I'm not going there. She was blessed AMONG women...yes. She was blessed to be chosen for this job. Yes. She sorrowed over the death of her son, as all mothers sorrow after the death of their sons...yes. But that's it Lula. That's as far as I can go using scripture as my guide.

Here's a reality check for you Lula using scripture. I'd like you to explain this one away:

"As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts at which you nursed!" But he said, "BLESSED RATHER are those who HEAR the word of God and KEEP it!" Luke 11:27

Here's the beginning of Mary worship and Jesus' response. He discouraged it. Nipped it in the bud.

This absoulutely contradicts CC teaching. You're asking us to do what Jesus did not encourage us to do. In fact, he did quite the opposite and it was his own mother.

huh?

Who says he was dead? Besides he wasn't praying for a dead man....

"The Lord give mercy TO THE HOUSE OF Onesiphorous.........."

where in the heck are you getting from this...Paul is praying FOR a dead man?

Catholic teaching absolutely does not contradict St.Luke 11:27 or vice versa...absolutely does not.

You have a strange definition of worship if you think the woman in saying this is worshipping the Blessed Mother. She was praising His Mother, not worshipping her. This woman was praising the Blessed Virgin's attitude and her obedience to the word of God. Remember the Blessed Mother said, "let it be to me according to your word"? 1:38. Now go back and read what Christ said to the woman. He too is praising His mother for she heard the word of God and kept it.

Now, with Christ there sometimes is an even deeper meaning. In the course of Christ's teaching, the BLessed Mother received His words extolling a spiritual Kingdom beyond the concerns and ties of flesh and blood. He declared blessed those who heard AND KEPT the word of God St.Mark 3:35; Luke 11:27-28, which is exactly describes His Mother who was very humble about it 2:19.

So,by replying in this way, CHrist is not discouraging or nipping in the bud as you say, the warm praise this woman renders His Mother. No not at all. He accepts it and goes further, explaining that His Mother is blessed particularly becasue she has been faithful in putting the word of God into practice. Imagine that, KFC? Christ is telling the woman His mother was a hearer of the word and a doer of the word.

Catholics look to the BVMary above all as a model and guide. By her 'yes' to the will of the Father at the Annunciation, her life became a testimony to the wonderful things that can happen when the human person cooperates with the divine plan. In agreeing to be the human vessel which brought forth the Messias into the world, she played an essential part in Christ's salvific mission. She manifested Christian humility and obedience when she responded to God's will, "I am the servant of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word."

Just as she brought Christ's physical body into the world, now she has a role on behalf of His Mystical Body, the Church. The Blessed Mother did not ask for her role nor did the Church give it to her, it was nothing less than her DIvine SOn's wish for her and for His Church. St.John 19:26.

As for a reality check...why don't Protestants hear Christ's words in St.John 6:51 "the bread is My flesh" instead of being like some of the Jews who found his saying "too hard" and left Him. V 60?

As for a reality check...why don't Protestants hear Christ's words in St.John 6:51 "the bread is My flesh" instead of being like some of the Jews who found his saying "too hard" and left Him. V 60?


Again, changing the subject. That says alot. What does this have to do with what I wrote in Luke? (Read nothing).

It's not as you are saying. He said BLESSED RATHER.....you are pulling out of scripture what is NOT there to defend your CC teaching. Why can't you just admit, what this scripture is clearly teaching?

Your bias is very clear. It's not about truth Lula. It's about defending the CC at any cost.

And that's ok. If that's what you wish to do. But don't twist scripture to do so.

It's like talking to the Clintons...

God says, have no dealings with the dead, do not communicate.

I agree.

You agree.

But then you quibble about what communicating means, or what dead means.

It's pointless.

It's not with what you wrote about St.Luke..it's what you opened the discussion with:



What is good for the goose is good for the gander.   

TOVA7 posts:

I'm saying these Scripture passages support my position, in other words, asking for the Saints' intercession, and praying for the souls in Purgatory is biblical. Are the departed souls in Heaven dead....no and the Scriptures tell us so.

Instead of saying it's pointless, why don't you refute them?

Scripture provides cases of departed souls' being allowed by God or even sent by God to encounter the living. See St.Matt. 17:1-9. After our Lord's Resurrection, a number of departed saints returned to Jerusalem and appeared to many See St.Matt 27:52-53.

Please, asking for the Saint's intercession is not an attempt to commune or conjure up the dead. It simply acknowledges that those spiritual souls who are in Heaven, perfected by Christ, are able and willing to help us by God's grace, after all, He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Catholics don't pray to the dead, we pray for the souls in Pugatory, like the Jewish General Machabees did that they might be freed from venial sin. "turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be blotted out." 2Mach.12:39-40. I mentioned that KFC should do a study on this for it explains that the Jews pray for the dead. It's for the same reason they and we pray for the living. It's an act of fraternal charity (Love). They were confident that this spiritual work would benefit those who had died, just as it would benefit someone who is still living.

LULA POSTS:

What do you mean Huh? What's your interpretation of 2Tim.1:16-18? I've told you mine.

Here is what St.Paul writes:

"May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains, 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he searched for me eagerly and found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from his Lord on that Day! You know well the services he rendered in Ephesus."

Well you told me Paul is praying for a dead man and I asked you where you're getting that from that scripture. You haven't answered my question of "where are you getting this from?" Where does it say he died?

My interpretation? Look at the context.

Paul is reminding Timothy to be careful in choosing one's fellow workers. In v15-18 we see a contrast of associates who were ashamed of the gospel with those who were not.

The first group he mentions included all who are in Asia and turned away from him. They were ashamed of Paul and the gospel he preached especially when Paul was imprisoned for the faith. To be rejected by the world is not pleasant but to be deserted by co-laborers in the faith is very painful and can be especially heartbreaking.

So he names the deserters Phygelus and Hermogenes and commends a second group who stand in contrast to the first group. He prays for the house of Onesiphorus (are alive) who were known to Timothy as were the others. You can see that Paul asks Timothy to greet them (4:19) so the family lived near Timothy. They were certainly not dead.

In deep gratitude Paul prays that the Lord would grant to him (Oneisphorus) to find mercy from the Lord on that day. This day is the day of believers judgment for works he mentioned in v12 and refers to again in 4:8. Oneisphorus's devotion to Paul was proven by his courage and faithfulness by the services he rendered at Ephesus.

We can not conclude from these verses if Oneisphorus is dead or alive. So saying Paul is praying to or for a dead man is a big stretch.

not really cuz we were discussing the worship of Mary and I brought you the very first instance of Mary worship in scripture. I didn't change any subject matter.

So what do you do? You go to John 6 and want to speak about the Eucharist?

What the heck?

KFC,

I was teasing you about your saying that you were going to give me a reality check using Scripture.





I figured you need a reality check of your own and referred to St.John 6.

Yes, Onesiphorus is dead. We can conclude that from v. 18. St.Paul here is praying for him and remembers him to Onesiphous' family (household).

Onesiphous loyalty is contrasted with that of the Christians who had been unfaithful in Asia. After he had arrived in Rome, he wasn't afraid or ashamed of St.Paul and visited him regularly which must have involved inconvenience and risk given the conditions of St. Paul's second imprisonment.

St. Paul is touched to the depths of his heart at the thought of the true love Onesiphorus had shown him. In his gratitude, he prays that he and his whole family will experience "the Lord's mercy." The form is which this is expressed in v. 18, suggests that his faithful friend was dead at the time the letter was written 4:19.

May CHrist, "the Lord grant that he will find mercy from his Lord" that is God, the Father the supreme Judge, "on that Day". With a play on words, He 'found' him in Rome, now may he "find" mercy, St.Paul prays that Onesiphorus will find a merciful Judge in eternity who will reward him for all his loyalty. WIth these few words which could be like the inscription on a tombstone, St.Paul raises a wonderful monument of gratitude to his dead friend.

Onesiphorus had also merited well of the Chruch at Ephesus. No one was in a better position to realize this than Timothy who now headed the community as St.Paul's successor. That's why St.Paul needed to say nothing more. Through his faithfulness, Onesiphorus left behind him in the Chruch at Ephesus the memory of a strong Christian personality. Even in the earliest days of the Chruch, we see light and shade. In this passage we have an example of the unselfishness of one Christian in the service of the community and his unswerving loyalty to St.Paul who was chained and held prisoner like a criminal. On the other hand, we see the faithflessness of others towards him in his hour of need when he was arrested. As lone as it is in its pilgrim state here on this earth, there will always be light and shade in Christ's Church, becasue it is made up of weak human beings. However, faith is capable of bearing even the most bitter disappointments.

Really? You're getting that from this verse? So it says here he died?



So what you're saying is you can't pray for mercy for someone who is alive and faithful and encouraging to you? You have to wait until they're dead to pray for them?

Notice that Paul prays that God grants mercy to the household of Onesiphous as well. They're not dead. So who's to say Onesiphous is as well?

Like I said we can't make a clear conclusion with this one verse.

Lula where do you get this from this set of scriptures?

"39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain." WWW Link

Lula posts:



lula posts:



AD POSTS:

Sorry about that. I should have written 2Machabees 12:39-46.

V. 46 is "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins."

The Christian duty to pray for the souls of the dead is inculcated in the Old Testament, and it is again taught in the New Testament. In the NT, St.Paul tells us that Christians are members of Christ, and members, therefore, of one another, so that if one members suffers anything, all members suffer with it. St.James tells us to pray for one another, advice certainly not limited to this life only.

and this is exactly why Macabees is NOT included in with the inspired cannon of scripture from the first century. This contradicts the 66 books of the bible.

Where in the OT is it taught to pray for the dead?



Now you're adding to what James wrote. He never said to pray for the dead.

Lula posts:

Granted, it doesn't say in direct words that Onesiphorus is dead. But let's go back to what we know from Scripture..

Christ Himself tells us that there are sins which secure their full remission only after death; that men far from being able to sin with impunity, will expiate their sins and will not be liberated from their expiation till they have paid the last farthing. St.James tells us that we must pray for one another that we may be saved and that the continual prayer of a just man avails much. If we can pray for those undergoing trials in this life, we certainly can for those in Purgatory.

Even though a person repented sufficiently for his salvation, some would yet have to expiate his sins in purgatory according to St.Paul's teaching--- that, if one has done evil, one will answer for it; and if saved, will be saved so as by fire. We Catholics pray for the souls of the departed rather than take for granted they attained perfect happiness, which may not have been theirs at all.

This is what we find St.Paul doing in writing to Timothy, offering a prayer for the repose of the soul of his good friend Onesiphorus. "The Lord grant unto him to find mercy.." he prayed.

I've found quotes from many other Protestants scholars who agree that ONesiphorus was dead and that we have no reason at all to believe the moment a soul dies it is perfected. And in all the liturgy that has come down to us from the time of the Apostles there are prayers for the departed asking of God peace and rest for them. It's quite right to pray for the departed.

I've concluded that's what St.Paul was doing in this Scriptural passage.   

Let's just stop right here. Let's quit while you're ahead.   

You are mistaken. Machabees was always included in the inspired canon of Scripture. The 46 Books of the Old Testament contained in the present canon ever since 3 centuries before Christ. The Jews, even of Palestine accepted the list of books. The Jews began to deny its authenticity only about a century AFTER Christ because they couldn't resist the arguments drawn from it and used against them by the early Christians. They rejected it but the Jews themselves had made of it for nearly 400 years rendered this rejection of it too late.

That the canon of the Holy BIble consisted of 73 Books (46 Books of the OLd Testament and 27 Books of the New Testament was specified in 367 AD in the Council of Laodicia and officially adopted in the Council of Carthage in 397AD.

That the Holy Bible consisted of 73 Books went unquestioned for 12 centuries until 1517, when the Reformer's protest turned into revolt from Catholicism. Martin Luther and his followers developed their own doctrinal pillars, the Bible "alone" and justification by faith "alone".

The Bible that Martin Luther supposedly restored to the people deprived them of the 7 Old Testament books. Yes, it's true, Luther threw out 7 Old Testament books, including 1 and 2 Machabees, becasue they don't support his doctrines. He thought himself infallible...saying "My word is the word of Christ; my mouth is the mouth of Christ. He tampered with Romans 3:28 daring to add the word "alone" which changed the whole meaning of writing inspired by the Holy Spirit. He replied to the complaints about this by saying, " IF your papist annoys you with the word (alone), tell him straightaway: Dr.Martin Luther will have it so. Papist and ass are one and the same thing. Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it to the go-by: the devil's thank to him who censures it without my will and knowledge. Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors of the Church." Amicable Discussion 1:127.



In 1546, the Council of Trent declared, ex cathedra, that is by infallible authority of the Catholic Church, that the list of books adopted by the Council of Carthage is the authoritive, the finally determined, collection of writings composed under Divine inspiration.

I'm not taking the bait Lula. I'm not changing the subject except to say....Christ never once quoted from these books which were around 3 centuries before Christ.

If you want to continue just answer the question. Where in the OT do you find a command, suggestion, or prayer to the dead? If you don't want to go there....show me where Christ advocated such a thing. You may want to start with Matthew 6.