Forgive me Lula...but I'm not going there. We've already been to Genesis about the Mary NOT being in that passage before. You think she is and I say she's ot. I'm not going down that road again.

I don't believe in the immaculate conception. I believe only in the virgin birth. That's all scripture teaches. That's a fairly new Church teaching btw. It's not as old as the scriptures and nowhere did any early church father teach this. Saying Mary is without sin is heresy. Absolutely. Only Christ was without sin. Why did he have to be born if Mary was perfect? She could have died for our sins. That's all that was needed was an unblemished perfect lamb. There would have been no need for Christ if God could have just fashioned a human to be perfect. Truth is Lula...not one person on earth was born perfect..and that included Mary.

The truth is...there's is very little about Mary in scripture outside of the announcment of his birth. Jesus more than once downplayed her part but I know you will never accept that...so we need to agree to disagree here. Outside of that she plays a very insignificant role. After Jesus left, pretty much Paul was the central human focus as he wrote a big portion of the NT, not Mary.


BTW...going with Augustine (and since you like him) and our conversation earlier about the blood/communion thing. He said in the fourth century....about John 6

The hard saying cannot be taken literally since it would seem to be enjoining a crime or a vice: it is therefore a figure, bidding us communicate in the sufferings of our Lord, and secretly and profitable treasure in our hearts the fact that his flesh was crucified and pierced for us.

Elsewhere he sums the matter up in an epigram: Crede et manducasti, "Believe, and thou hast eaten." Augustine on Christian Doctrine; Augustine Homilies on John

It all comes down to belief doesn't it?

The Book of Common Prayer said this:

"Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith with thinksgiving."

KFC POSTS:

You asked for Scripture and I provided two passages...I try to be as thorough as possible. Check a Douay Rheims Version, which scholars consider to be the most accurately translated Bible in the world, and you'll see the passage is just as I stated. Now interpretating that translation is a whole other matter   .


Speaking of Genesis keep in mind God's punishment and curse both to the devil and to Eve and thereby all womanhood..and how that relates to the the Blessed Mother's being free from Original Sin and sinless.

When God spoke to the serpent in the Garden He announced that his very punishment would lie in being overcome by the woman. You think she is Eve, I say the BVMary is the new Eve. God said He will put enmity between the woman and Satan, Satan's seed and her seed. The woman wasn't Eve becasue she had already succumbed to Satan's temptation and sinned. It was the BVMary who was completely and absolutely free from sin from the first moment of her conception. She has overcome the devil and all his temptations through her Son, our Divine Redeemer, who has saved her first of all from Original Sin. Scripture tells us the most the devil will be allowed to do is "wound her heel" and that is done by causing her Seed, our Lord as well as the Blessed Virgin herself to suffer much.

As a penalty of Original Sin, God's punishment pronounced on Eve as well as all women after her, was the pain of childbearing. Now even before the terms original sin and immaculate conception had been defined by the Church, early writings imply that doctrine by mentioning that the BVMary gave birth to Jesus without pain. Thus, she could not have been under that penalty. By God's grace, she was immaculate in anticipation of her Son's redemptive death on the Cross.

The Ascension of Isiah, 11 (70AD), "..the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain."

Odes of Solomon 19, 80AD, "So the VIrgin became a mother with great mercies. ANd she labored and bore the SOn, but without pain becasue it did not occur without purpose."



Ephraim the Syrian, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8, AD 361 "You alone and your mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon Your mother."

Ambrose of Milan, Commentary of Psalm 118:22 AD 387, "Come, then, search our your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh which has fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah, but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free from every stain of sin."

St. Augustine, Nature and Grace 36:42 415 AD, "Having accepted the holy Virgin Mary concerning whom on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins--for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear Him in whom their is no sin? So I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do you suppose would have been the answer?"

Of her Assumption into Heaven, Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4, 584AD, "The course of this life having been completed by Mary, when now she would be called from this world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. ANd when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. ANd behold, the Lord Jesus came with His angels, and taking her soul, He gave it over to the Angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come, And behold, again the Lord stood by them, the holy body having been received. He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, Mary's body rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end."

Well, actually, it's not a fairly new Church doctrine at all. In saying this you misunderstand both the history of the way Church doctrine develops and what prompts the Church to issue definitive pronouncements. The doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy or when the Magisterium (the Chruch in its office as teacher St.Matt. 28:18-10; 1Tim.3:15; 4:11, thinks it can be helpful by particular emphasis being drawn on already existing belief. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter. The doctrine that Christ is God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, was always believed from the very beginning of the early Chruch, but only infallibly defined at the Council of Nicea in 325. This was to stem the great controversy of the Arian heresy.



Well, I've already given some of the Church Fathers writings and how they spoke of the BVMary's unique sinlessness. There's more too about her position as the second Eve. The BVMary is called "the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption" by St.Hippolytus in the 3rd century. Origen hails her as "worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, not infected by his poisonous breathings." St.Ambrose described her as "a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin." Maximus of Turin called her "a dwelling fit for Christ...because of orignial grace."

There's a bunch more but let's get back to Scripture a bit...

The Immaculate Conception is especially fitting when we examine the honor that was given the Ark of the Covenant. It contained the manna (bread from Heaven), stone tablets of the Ten Commandments, and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel's highest priesthood.) Can you see where I'm going with this? Because of the Ark's contents, it was made of incorruptible wood and Psalm 131:8 (132:8), said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to they resting place thou and ark, which thou hast sanctified."

If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should The BVMary be kept from corruption (Sin) since she is the new ark, who carried the Real Bread from Heaven, the Word of God, and the High Priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ?

Some think the new ark wasn't the BVMary, but the body of Jesus.Even if this were the case it's worth noting that 1Chronicles 15:14 records that the person who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box and not sanctify the womb who carried GOd Himself. After all, Wisdom will not dwell "in a body under the debt of sin." Wis. 1:4.

And lastly getting back to Genesis where I began, if the BVMary is immacultatley conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave which is a consequence of sin. Gen.3:17-19.

Sanctified is all thru scripture. Every Christian is sanctified.

When we come to Christ we are justified, declared righteous. Only happens once...another term is "born again."

Sanctification is an ongoing process but it means to "set apart." God sancitified the nation Israel. It means he set them apart. He sanctifies the Christian. It means he set them apart.

Glorification is the next process and will not happen until we die. That's when we receive our glorified bodies.

Justification>>>>>>>>Sanctification>>>>>>>>>>>>Glorification

Mary is NOT immaculate. Scripture is quite clear. ALL HAVE SINNED and fallen short of the Glory of God. That's why Christ had to come to die. There was NO ONE ELSE that in the human flesh who was perfect.

I'll repeat....Genesis 3:15 has nothing to do with Mary. The scriptures are all about Jesus....NOT Mary.



He's not saying she was sinless. He believed what I believe...in the Virgin birth, not the immaculate conception. Read what I underlined from your quote carefully. He's saying there was an abundance of grace to cover her sins as Paul wrote. "Where sin abounds grace abounds more." What about that scripture? That's what Augustine is referring to. He's says clearly "bear him in WHOM THERE IS NO SIN." He's not saying that about Mary. So he's backing me up Lula...not you.

You should really read what you're copying and pasting. Oops!

Thanks for making my case.

It's just the other way around....BVMary was sinless becasue of Christ's birth, death and resurrection. She required a Savior. Like all the other descendants of Adam, she was subject to contracting Original Sin, but by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant of her conception in the womb of her mother, St.Anne, preserved her from Original Sin and its consequences. She was redeemed by the grace of Christ...but in a special way....by anticipation. God was not going to allow His only begotten Son to be born of a woman who had been tempted by Satan and had sin on her soul.

Here's an analagy:

Suppose a man falls into a deep muddy pit and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been 'saved' from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along and she too is about to topple over into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit but in even a better way. She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is an illustration to explain how the BVMary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ's grace at her conception, she had His grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

Lula, this is a good point. She did need a savior. But only someone who is a sinner and needs help needs a Savior. If she wasn't a sinner, why did she need a Savior? The whole Anne story I belive is a gnostic teaching actually. It's outside of scripture and like all outside stories like this, I take it with a grain of salt.

Your analogy sounds nice, but the problem is all those born in the world fall into the pit. There is nothing but the pit. The entire world is the pits!!! That's why Christ said we had to be IN THE WORLD but we shouldn't be OF THE WORLD. Everything in the world was tainted with sin. Everything and everyone. Only Jesus who was fully God and fully man could rectify all this. Not Mary, not Anne. Only Christ.

She was saved by Christ like we all were. That's why Jesus dying on the cross needed to be her Savior like he was to everyone else. That's why he said from now on, John would be her son. She would be John's mother. She needed to look upon Jesus as her Savior and NOT her son anymore.

Remember, she was in the upper room with all the rest the day of Pentecost. She too was filled with the HS on that day as they all were. From then on we hear no mention of her. Paul never wrote of her, Peter did not, James did not, Luke, did not, Jude did not, neither did John in his last four books.

Through the merits of Christ, the BVMary was redeemed in a more exalted fashion than the rest of us were. She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, becasue He saved her in a more glorious fashion than any other person ever born...she is the only person ever born of human parents without original sin..this privilege the Church calls her Immaculate Conception.

And this makes total sense...consider this reasoning:

The Blessed Virgin was to be the Mother of the Son of God. It wouldn't be proper for the Mother of God to be even for one moment under the devil's power. If she had been in Original SIn, she would have been in the service of the devil. Whatever disgraces a mother disgraces also her Son, so our Lord wouldn't permit her to be subject to the devil and consequently, He saved her from the pit of Original SIn. That is, she was conceived without any stain of Original sin upon her soul.

That's why the angel Gabriel said she was "full of grace", and that's why we call her "Blessed among woman"...all makes sense.

Catholic doctrines never, ever contradict Scripture...they give fullness to it...that's why the full teaching of Christ comes from both written word (Sacred Scripture) and oral word...Sacred Tradition. Nothing in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception contradicts Scripture...the doctrine further explains Gen. 3:15 and St.Luke 1:28 doesn't contradict it at all.

But see Lula, that's why she was "full of grace."  Like you're saying about being in the service of the devil.  The more sin, the more grace is given.  Like Jesus said about the woman that washed his feet with her tears....the ones that are forgiven much, love much. 

Grace is unmerited favor.  It means that while Mary didn't deserve Grace she was given it in abundance.  It's the same for all of us.  Grace is given from someone who is in authority and has power over us.  It's never the other way around. 

While a cop can give us grace for speeding when we rightly deserve a ticket.  We can't give the Cop grace.  He's the one in power at the moment.  He's the one in authority.  It's unmerited favor.  We do nothing to deserve it, we can just accept it thankfully. 

yes, among....not ABOVE. 

 

 

”All have sinned” , Rom. 3:23….

First, it should be noted there is a distinction between original sin…which is the sin we inherited from Adam and Eve and actual sin which is a sin we knowingly and willingly commit ourselves either by doing what we should not do OR by not doing what we should do.
Here St. Paul is talking about committing actual sin....and yes, even to actual sin…the BVMary was sinless.


And all haven’t sinned when you think about it…all people haven’t committed actual sin. A child below the age of reason for example. By definition, he can’t sin since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin.

A Rabbi was once asked why Jews eat eggs on Passover. "Because eggs symbolize the Jew," the Rabbi answered. "The more an egg is burned or boiled, the harder it gets."

We are conceived with Original sin on our soul and thus have a fallen human nature...we all sin falling under the temptation of the devil. Unlike the rest of humanity, the BVMary was conceived with her soul "full of Grace"..without original sin and that's why the Blessed Mother was never, not once under the guiles of the devil.



Agree 100%.

God freely gave these special, distinctive blessings to the BVMary in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and prototypical Christian mother and follower of Christ. These blessings include her role as the new Eve, her Immaculate Conception, and her Assumption into Heaven. These special gifts were given to her by God's grace..she didn't merit them, but she possessed them from the instant of her conception and all her life nonetheless.

The key to understanding these graces is the BVMary's role as the new Eve which the Chruch Fathers wrote about. You know that in the beginning GOd created Adam, Eve, and all the angels for that matter immaculate, that is, without sin. Becasue she is the new Eve, she was born immaculate without sin...just as Eve was the mother of all humanity, she , the new Eve, is the spiritual mother of all humanity.

  


Lula,

I don't believe Mary is or was the "new Eve." She was Mary.

KFC POSTS: #154




Oh, c’mon KFC….we can’t stop there in the quote …what were Saint Augustine’s next words? They were “So, I say, with the exception of the Virgin…”

Here’s the entire quote:
St. Augustine, Nature and Grace 36:42 415 AD, "Having accepted the holy Virgin Mary concerning whom on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins--for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear Him in whom their is no sin? So I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do you suppose would have been the answer?"



St.Augustine understood that by a unique grace the BVMary was preserved from all sin, Original Sin as well as actual sin. The Chruch has always held this body of doctrine originally entrusted to the Apostles and was transmitted by them, otherwise it could not be made a matter of faith. Explicit belief in her Immaculate Conception seems to have arisen as an application of the general doctrine of Mary’s perfect holiness as it relates to her being chosen as Christ’s mother. “full of grace” 1:28 and “ ….thou hast found grace with God. And behold, thou shalt conceive…” St.Luke 1:30-31 DRV. They understood that only a flawless holiness would be in any way proportionate to her vocation as Mother of the Son of God. St.Augustine understood this as well.



No, absolutely NO WAY was St. Augustine saying this. First of all, St.Augustine believed with the Church that by the grace of God and through the merits of Christ, the BVMary was always sinless, from her conception and all through her life as Mother of Christ. So, if she didn’t have any sins to begin with, they couldn’t have been covered. Which brings me to my second point.

That our sins are “covered” is a false doctrine that sprang from the Reformers. That our sins are merely covered is bunk.

Sanctifying Grace is infused into our souls and completely removes all stain of sin…our souls become white as the snow..

Everyone prior to Jesus was saved in anticipation of Jesus, weren't they? Well, everyone with faith..

Yes, good point.

Christ died and His body was buried in the heavily sealed and guarded tomb.
While His body lay in the tomb, according to the Apostles' Creed, His soul descended into to the dead, a place Catholics call Limbo. Why? To bring all those just souls who had died in the state of grace since the fatal day which closed the gate of Heaven to Adam and all his descendents. Here was the Pentitent Thief, Dismas, St.John the Baptist, good St.Joseph, Sts. Elizabeth and Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, the brave Machabees, the long line of God's prophets, the holy priests, kings and judges, Esther and Judith as well as Moses, the greatest lawgiver and leader, the patriarchs, Abraham, Noah, and Catholics believe Adam and Eve----all humbly waiting for Him with His glad tidings of the completion of His work of Redemption.

Try to imagine the scene in Heaven; the keen interest of the Angels in those human souls, and their unfathomable joy when Christ brought them, now glorified Saints into Heaven.


Still, there is a distinction between all these Saints born with Original Sin and the Blessed Mother Mary born without OS.

Unfortunately, Mary had the sin of Adam passed on to her, as she was born of man and woman. Christ avoided it only because he did not have a man to pass it on to him... the sin of Adam is passed down from the father..

I apologize for the delay.

There is quite a bit to this section of scripture (and I was out of town this weekend).

I didn't have the time to dig through ALL the Prophets and Law to find the prophesy of John. But I did find references in Isaiah and Malachi.

It seems to me that John is the preparation to the Messiah. He was to teach the restoration of the heart of the scriptures which came through Jesus.

That's my short summary start.

wow that is short...ok.

I look at John as really part of the OT really.   It's like he walked off the pages of the OT right into the new continuing the message of the OT and annouce Jesus as the Messiah that was spoken of to those who would hear. 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree.

I saw two parts to the prophecy being mentioned which I can see as causing some confusion with Jesus. One is the restoration of the heart of faith (in the ceremonial practices [Malachi]) and the coming of judgment (which I recognize as the second coming).

John was lucky. He was the prophet who actually got to meet Jesus. When people started going to Jesus instead of him, he basically told his disciples that he was rejoicing for it. He must increase, I must decrease. That's what we should do in our own lives.

For sure!

As early as when he was a babe in the womb! As the pregnant Blessed Mother Mary appoached, he (John) leaped in his mother Elizabeth's womb...

St.Luke 2:42-44

What follows St. Matt 11:12-14 is 17:12, "But I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not know him, but did to him what they desired. ANd likewise the Son of man is about to suffer from them."

Since Malachais 4:5-6 says Elijah must come before the Messias , the Scripture cannot be contradicted. John the Baptist says he is not Elijah, St.John 1:19-21, Jesus says He is StMatt. 11:10-14. The solution is given in St.Luke 1:17; 7:27, which says St. John came in "the spirit and power of Elijah". St.John's ministry of turning hearts to God was considerable, especially in light of the abject unbelief in Israel in contrast to the crowds that came to be baptized by St.John in reparation for their sins. St.Matt.3:5-6; 14:5; 16:14; St.Luke 3:3-14; 7:33; 19:9; Acts 19:3.

What follows St. Matt 11:12-14 is 17:12, "But I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not know him, but did to him what they desired. ANd likewise the Son of man is about to suffer from them."

Since Malachais 4:5-6 says Elijah must come before the Messias , the Scripture cannot be contradicted. John the Baptist says he is not Elijah, St.John 1:19-21, Jesus says He is StMatt. 11:10-14. The solution is given in St.Luke 1:17; 7:27, which says St. John came in "the spirit and power of Elijah". St.John's ministry of turning hearts to God was considerable, especially in light of the abject unbelief in Israel in contrast to the crowds that came to be baptized by St.John in reparation for their sins. St.Matt.3:5-6; 14:5; 16:14; St.Luke 3:3-14; 7:33; 19:9; Acts 19:3.

The simple way to say this ......Jesus is saying that if the Jews had received Him they would also have understood that John fulfilled Malachi's prediction of the coming of Elijah before the Day of the Lord. They did not. Look at 17:11-12 also.

TOva7 Posts:

Tova7,
Did you know that the Blessed Virgin Mary prophesied that "all ages to come shall call me blessed" St.Luke 1:48? Catholics consider it a privilege to fulfill that prophecy.

TOVA7 posts: 137

Most every Catholic prays to the Blessed Virgin Mary. The prayer is the Ave Maria also called the "Hail Mary". The words are simple:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

What could you find so objectionable in a prayer whose roots are so biblical? The first half is a direct quote from St.Luke 1:28, 42 while the second half affirms the divinity of Christ, the fallen state of mankind, human mortality, and the power of intecessary prayer.




The teaching of the Church is clear that Christ is the sole mediator between God and mankind. No other person on earth and in Heaven can take His place. The subordinate form of mediation (asking intercession) is biblical. Catholics seek the Blessed Virgin Mary's and the other Saints in Heaven intercession just as they seek the intercession of all good Christians, living and dead, for all are alive in Christ. 1Cor.15:22. This Christian intercession for one another is as old as the Chruch. If we, still in sin, can pray effectively for one another, why not the Saints in glory?

To answer the critical question then we Catholics do not worship the Blessed Virgin Mary or the other Saints. We give them special honor becasue of their lives of faithful witness
and we seek their intercession before the Lord as all believers in Heaven and on earth unite their prayers to the perfect prayer of Christ.