AvantiTexan AvantiTexan

God cannot be proven.

God cannot be proven.

From the beginning of human thought, men and women alike have pondered about the existence of a God. Christian apologists have written mountains of books going to great extents trying to prove God. At the same time, Materialists have written their own opposing mountain of books just across the valley proving just the opposite. It is a continuing “Nutuh – Uhuh” battle that will continue until the end of human thought. That being said, here is my proposition: God cannot be proved. Try if you will, I challenge anyone to do so. It just cannot be done. This is not written to invoke flaming arrows of anger and misunderstanding. I wish it to serve only as a learning experience for all parties involved. Perhaps we can all learn something from each other.

Therefore, the task ahead of you, should you accept it, would be to prove the existence of God.
8,161 views 49 replies
Reply #26 Top
Texas Wahine
Thanks sis! I love you too! Tell Adrian and the boys I love them also. Now, go have fun with your hubby!

d3adz0mbie
Who is to say that the big bang is not the handiwork of a greater diety?

I agree with you here...to some extent. Great thinking.
To define God is to be obtusely arrogant

You lose you me here. If there is no definition, then there is no God.
Thanks for your thoughts!
AT

BakerStreet
It takes as much faith to say that God doesn't exist as it does to say He does exist

Great point. This is where I was going with this topic. Every human system is faith based. The only difference is how some system minimalize the role of faith while others build on it.
AT

Dr. Guy
God cannot interfere, or he destroys our free will.

Cannot or will not? That is the question! Also, I think I remember reading somewhere that God hardened some Pharaoh guys heart...hmm...what do you think?
AT

Marcie Helen
The human body is just something that's the ultimate proof to me that God is there.

Great point! The human body itself is often used as a proof of a God. Thanks for your thoughts!
AT

BlueDev
If there was proof one would not need faith.

Great insight. Proof overides faith. Besides, who needs a God a human can prove?
AT

Reply #27 Top
Your right, techincally, God can't be disproven. Neither can the hypothisis that fluffy pink bunnies roam the skies over some planet in the Alpha Centauri system. Can we make an educated guess as to both? Well, I'm going to put my money on no. However, that is too simple an approach to the question as a whole.

First of all, there must be a distinction made between God and god. Upper-case God generally refers to the God of the Jeudeo-Christo-Muslim deity figure. Lower-case god usually refers to the general concept of a higher being, be it mono- or poly-theistic, Christian, or Alpha Centaurian. This is important, because I find there to be far more evidence against God then god.

As far as God goes, the concept is based on a very all-or-nothing principle of the Bible. Either the whole thing is true and you believe it (of course, 'true' is relative as well, as it does not necissarily mean a literal interpretation of the Bible), or any part is false and you are not Christian. This tends to breed a very insular, non-questioning, xenophobic world-view, as any questioning or attack of the core beliefs is taken as a personal attack on the very core of the self. I find it hard to believe that any being that truely loved the human race would put such a devisive set of rules in place.

Small-g god, however, is different. The possibility of a higher being (perhaps a hyper-evoloved state of a human-like or other intelligent creature) is far more within the realm of reasonable possibility then some being that exists outside of time and space. Also, taken in a liberal manner, god can even be applied to things like the Matrix Theory (a theory that says that if we as a race will ever develop giant simulations of entire worlds and galaxies, chances are that we ourselves are a simulation run by an advanced race in some outside existance.) When god is no longer such a concrete structure, it becomes far more robust and likely.

However, the intelligent design argument in support of religion falls flat on its face right out of the gate. If it is so unrealistic to believe that the general 'stuff' of the universe exists infinitely, and that given an extremely long time, complex structures can arise by chance, then the idea that an omnipotent intelligence pre-dated the most basic forms of matter and energy is a leap of faith to say the least. It really becomes a chicken and egg debate. If the universe is too complex to have been random, it must have been created by god. But god is so complex, how could it have preceded basic elements? And on and on it goes...

Personally, I think that religions in general are giant cults, in essance. They are based on a near-absolute lack of, and in many cases outright suppression of facts, free thought, and logic. The Bible might have been an excelent self-help book in its time, but it has gone entirely too far at this point. Lots of people feel they need answers, and religions are an easy way to get them, true or not. As for how 'miracles' can occur, luckily, logic allows for statistical anomalies. Every event lies along a bell curve of chance, and occasionaly, the bottoms of that curve are hit. Alot of the so-called miracles can also be attributed to genetics or human perseverance. Or just dumb luck.
Reply #28 Top
I remember reading somewhere that God hardened some Pharaoh guys heart...hmm...what do you think?


Yes he did... but perhaps you should read up on that... it's in Exodus... God did that for a reason.
Reply #29 Top
God can interfere, as proven in Exodus, and many other places in the Bible, but for the most part he does not, as that would make the idea of free will absolete.

Whenever he does interfere, prayer went forth before he did, so he was answering a prayer.
Reply #30 Top
SiRMetMan
First of all, there must be a distinction made between God and god.

Here we are discussing God, perhaps god would make another great discussion.
As far as God goes, the concept is based on a very all-or-nothing principle of the Bible.

I disagree with this. God does not rest upon the Bible for validity. Before one believes the Bible, they must first believe in God. Many may disagree with this, perhaps many Christians, but the Bible nowhere tries to prove the exsistence of God.
I find it hard to believe that any being that truely loved the human race would put such a devisive set of rules in place.

That is a good point. However, many look toward all the "thou shalt nots" etc and completely mis the hundreds of times the Bible speaks of unity and peace. Certianly, we have messed this up.
The possibility of a higher being (perhaps a hyper-evoloved state of a human-like or other intelligent creature) is far more within the realm of reasonable possibility then some being that exists outside of time and space.

I find just the opposite to be true. However, both are faith statements. To believe in one or the other is still a believe. Remember, it was you who wrote, "Can we make an educated guess as to both? Well, I'm going to put my money on no." You try to put some educated guesses on something you said cannot really have educated guesses too.
But god is so complex, how could it have preceded basic elements? And on and on it goes...

Exactly my point. Faith has to begin somewhere. Whether it is faith in the "stuff" or faith in "God", it is still faith, neither can be proven. The stuff believers try to reduce the role of faith and the God believers try to enlarge on its role.
Personally, I think that religions in general are giant cults, in essance. They are based on a near-absolute lack of, and in many cases outright suppression of facts, free thought, and logic.

I am sadden to hear you think this. However, I would encourage you to examine your own world view and press it to its nature logical conclusions. Think through all the details. How many facts are suppressed through it, how much "freedom of thought" does it let you have, how logical is it?

I really enjoyed reading your thoughts and would love to read some more! Thanks sharing, I look foward to reading some more of your stuff!

AT

Silver_and_Jade_Tears
Yes he did... but perhaps you should read up on that... it's in Exodus... God did that for a reason.

I've read the story many times thanks. : )
Whenever he does interfere, prayer went forth before he did, so he was answering a prayer.

Okay, I don't really want to get off on a free-will tangent, perhaps another blog. Great thoughts and comments, thanks!
AT

Reply #31 Top
The existance of 'stuff', with the possible excpetion of the opinions of quantum physisists, is evident all around you. The very fact that you concider yourself to exist proves the existance of stuff. God is not proved to exist anywhere. Religious texts speak of its existance, but saying God exists because the book says so, and the book is true because God exists is a circular argument, and circular arguments are one of the most elementary of logical errors.

Personally, I find the idea of God to be both profoundly arrogant and restrictive to the point of being depressing. Assuming God, and by extension the Jeudeo-Christian crationist principles, is arrogant in that it makes the assumption that we are somehow better then all other animals in an absolute sense. We are the only beings created in the image of God, and are the chosen creatures of God. That has to be the most arrogant and self-serving proclamation possible.

At the same time, limiting us to what God made us as is extremely restrictive. Saying that we have no chance as a species to ever evolve beyond what we are now is deperessing beyond words. Making the assumption that there are things which we as humans not only will never understand about the universe, but CANNOT ever understand is also a sad predicament.

I am not an athiest; rather I am an agnostic. However, the chances of God existing seem to be exceedingly slim to me. That does not mean that it is an impossible scenario, as the non-existance of God is an impossible scenerio to any faithful person. If you chose to see that as a narrow-minded view, that is your right, but I can't honestly say it makes any sense.
Reply #32 Top
agnostic is another word for atheist in my humble opinion
Reply #33 Top
SiRMetMan
God is not proved to exist anywhere. Religious texts speak of its existance, but saying God exists because the book says so, and the book is true because God exists is a circular argument, and circular arguments are one of the most elementary of logical errors.

On this, we agree. Perhaps I did not explain myself well earlier. God cannot be proved by the Bible or any other text. One has to come to the Bible with the acceptence that God already exsists. That is not circular logic. It just begins with faith.

The existance of 'stuff', with the possible excpetion of the opinions of quantum physisists, is evident all around you. The very fact that you concider yourself to exist proves the existance of stuff.

I never disagreed the stuff is in existance. I am proposing that the manner in which we "describe" stuff scientifically is just as faith based as any religion. This concerns world views. Every world view, agnostic, materialists, christian, are all faith based. Another term could be used, presuppositions. For example, if you were to say that you were going to abandon all presuppositions (things that are faith based) could you even say that with certantiy? Could you abandon the presupposition that your own thought is reliable and dependable?

Personally, I find the idea of God to be both profoundly arrogant and restrictive to the point of being depressing.

At the same time, limiting us to what God made us as is extremely restrictive.

Perhaps we will never agree on these statements. They are born from different world views.

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts and a little bit of yourself with me.
Hope to read some more!
AT
Reply #34 Top
SiRMetMan
God is not proved to exist anywhere. Religious texts speak of its existance, but saying God exists because the book says so, and the book is true because God exists is a circular argument, and circular arguments are one of the most elementary of logical errors.

On this, we agree. Perhaps I did not explain myself well earlier. God cannot be proved by the Bible or any other text. One has to come to the Bible with the acceptence that God already exsists. That is not circular logic. It just begins with faith.

The existance of 'stuff', with the possible excpetion of the opinions of quantum physisists, is evident all around you. The very fact that you concider yourself to exist proves the existance of stuff.

I never disagreed the stuff is in existance. I am proposing that the manner in which we "describe" stuff scientifically is just as faith based as any religion. This concerns world views. Every world view, agnostic, materialists, christian, are all faith based. Another term could be used, presuppositions. For example, if you were to say that you were going to abandon all presuppositions (things that are faith based) could you even say that with certantiy? Could you abandon the presupposition that your own thought is reliable and dependable?

Personally, I find the idea of God to be both profoundly arrogant and restrictive to the point of being depressing.

At the same time, limiting us to what God made us as is extremely restrictive.

Perhaps we will never agree on these statements. They are born from different world views.

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts and a little bit of yourself with me.
Hope to read some more!
AT
Reply #35 Top
God is able, and willing, but man must first give up his pride and selfishness and depend on a higher being.


If the potter makes a faulty pot, is it fair to blame the pot for its shortcomings?
Reply #36 Top
God can interfere, as proven in Exodus, and many other places in the Bible, but for the most part he does not, as that would make the idea of free will absolete


your version of god sounds pretty arbitrary, then. I'd rather just believe that it's an aribtrary universe without some meddling sky fairy fucking around with people like chess pieces...
Reply #37 Top
agnostic is another word for atheist in my humble opinion


Your humble opinion ignores the meanings of the two words, and is, therefore, incorrect. Now I'll quit posting on here for awhile. Cheers.
Reply #38 Top
your version of god sounds pretty arbitrary, then. I'd rather just believe that it's an aribtrary universe without some meddling sky fairy fucking around with people like chess pieces...


I prefer my view, thanks. Never said you had to believe the same...
Reply #39 Top
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.


So what's wrong with a malevolent God?
Reply #40 Top
So what's wrong with a malevolent God?


Ohhhh I remember.... God is perfect justice. But what if God's justice is so far beyond thought that it appears as either malevolence or love, depending upon the position assumed in relation to God by anyone attempting to answer the question?

What if God's justice involves acting upon the world in accordance with an ethic that is essentially incomprehensible? Then this ethic could only appear to a finite mind as either caprice or malevolence - not love, because these effects have a seeming randomness opposed to the single minded interest in the welfare of another that we equate with the term 'love'.

In my opinion God is as malevolent as he is loving, as indifferent as he is interested. And there is no sense at all in which his existence can be proven, since proof is a construct of thought created by finite minds, and what is finite can, by definition, have no understanding of, or relation of comprehension to, what is infinite.

So I'll ask you again: what's wrong with a malevolent God?
Reply #41 Top
God MUST be malevolent. No matter how kind he is to some, he must be cruel to others. If he favors one side in a battle, he must spurn the other. The fact that good and evil are subjective based upon your perspective. Not that I agree with them, but ask any muslim terrorist and he'll probably tell you that 9/11 was the ultimate display of justice. Ask me what I thought of the middle east on 9/12, and I'd tell you that I thought it should have been made into the world's largest mirror. Morality is just as subjective as faith, so it's not really a very good barometer for measuing the world either. Thus the malevolence of God is somewhat pointeless to argue over.
Reply #42 Top
Thus the malevolence of God is somewhat pointeless to argue over.


I wasn't arguing. I asked a question - what's wrong with a malevolent God?
Reply #43 Top
Silver and Jade, as far as I'm concerned, theists and athiests are equally dogmatic. Both chose to believe in something that has no factual evidence to support or discredit it. I myself would say I am anti-dogmatic (I'd like to think adogmatic, but that may be giving myself too much credit). Only a hardline theist, which I'm assuming you are, would ever confuse agnostic belief with athiestic belief. I find God to be highly unlikely, yes, but that does not mean I do not take the possiblility of ANY supernatural syestem or structure to be 0.

One of the best quotes I can think of is from the movie Dogma, I will paraphrase, as unfortunately I do not have a perfect memory, "do not have beliefs, have thoughts." In other words, it is best to constantly think and question things, not to accept them blindly. Living with that sort of mentality will make you a far more robust personality, and allow you to deal with adversity much better.
Reply #44 Top
Silver and Jade, as far as I'm concerned, theists and athiests are equally dogmatic. Both chose to believe in something that has no factual evidence to support or discredit it. I myself would say I am anti-dogmatic (I'd like to think adogmatic, but that may be giving myself too much credit). Only a hardline theist, which I'm assuming you are, would ever confuse agnostic belief with athiestic belief. I find God to be highly unlikely, yes, but that does not mean I do not take the possiblility of ANY supernatural syestem or structure to be 0.

One of the best quotes I can think of is from the movie Dogma, I will paraphrase, as unfortunately I do not have a perfect memory, "do not have beliefs, have thoughts." In other words, it is best to constantly think and question things, not to accept them blindly. Living with that sort of mentality will make you a far more robust personality, and allow you to deal with adversity much better.


I know perfectly the definition of "agnostic" and "atheist." Nor am a "hardline theist" therefore your assumption is wrong. AS for accepting things blindly, I did that once, until I was old enough to think about abstract things such as love, religion, etc. and make my own decisions regarding such.

I have tried misc religions, as well as having no religion and simply calling myself an "agnostic." I do not have a religion now, simply a relationship. But that would be for another thread.

The assumption that anyone that is not an agnostic, or an atheist is not thinking for themselves is based on immature thinking.
Reply #45 Top
The assumption that anyone that is not an agnostic, or an atheist is not thinking for themselves is based on immature thinking.


Silver and Jade--I gave you an "insightful" for that one.

I have always found it interesting that in such conversations as this it is nearly always posited by someone that those who have belief or faith in a god are wishy-washy, unable to think for themselves, or simply incapable of the same level of thinking as the agnostics or atheists. I have yet to see a conversation along these lines in which that isn't brought up. Of course, those open-minded individuals who disdain those of us who have these types of belief just never seem to be sufficiently open-minded to consider that we may have come to our belief through years of trial, careful introspection, study, prayer, and questioning.

For some reason they just assume that all of us believe blindly. Or at least that is the way they like to talk about us. Certainly there are those who believe blindly. However, there are still very many of us who arrived at our beliefs only because we did question, we did doubt, we did think, ponder, search and study.
Reply #46 Top
However, there are still very many of us who arrived at our beliefs only because we did question, we did doubt, we did think, ponder, search and study.


Actually, I would place a rather large bet (if I gambled) that most people have arrived at their religious decisions, whether theistic, or otherwise, through trials, and such.
Reply #47 Top
I wouldn't. I do also draw a distinction between theists and dogmatic theists. The dogmatic ones tend to be the ones that lakc the ability to think on thier own. Dogmatic theists would be the types who take the Bible or other religious text as unadultarated, literal truth. Some thesits do question, just most that do tend to know the difference between what an agnostic and what an athiest is.
Reply #48 Top
just most that do tend to know the difference between what an agnostic and what an athiest is.


I know what the difference is, good grief. It was a statement against the politcally correctness of a previous statement.
Reply #49 Top
I don't think God can be proven. Like the universe itself, God's incomprehensible.
Theists aren't the only ones with faith. Everybody has faith of some kind. The only people without faith are the ones in the ground.
I personally believe that theists, deists, agnostics, and atheists are all open-minded as long as they don't forget their human limitations.
As for whether or not God is malevolent, all I know is that I still hate my own father for allowing the evil man at the hospital to stick those IV needles into me. Why would my father force me to go through such pain? Same with when he pours that evil hydrogen peroxide on my wounds. That only makes them hurt more.