God cannot be proven.

Um, I sort of thought that was what faith is all about...? I don't think there are many who would disagree with you.

Welcome to JU, by the way. Good luck.

I believe Anglo is correct. It all comes down to faith. All we truly have are images, stories and the effect of that person on people.

However, the argument could be made that any figure from that time period did not exist. No one living today has seen them and all we have are stories, images and the effect of that person on people.

Now, I am not saying Nero or Caesar did not exist, but there is an amount of faith there that we use to accept their place in history.

IG

Faith is bollocks. Good post.

Therefore, the task ahead of you, should you accept it, would be to prove the existence of God.

Your post and challenge sound as though they are attempting to apply scientific thought and reasoning the realm of faith. But there is an inherent problem in your challenge.

Science doesn't try to prove anything.

It never has, and it never will. Speaking as a scientist myself who has devoted years of my life to research I feel pretty confident in what I am stating. Science tries to disprove things, not the other way around. Look at all our scientific knowledge and rules. All we "know" about genetics is simply a bunch of hypotheses that have not, as of yet, been proved to be wrong. Same with physics. We don't prove the mathematical theory of gravity, we just haven't found any evidence that proves it to be wrong. The scientific method is to formulate a hypothesis and then prove that hypothesis to be wrong. If that fails the hypothesis then moves on to the realm of theory. If that theory stands long enough, without proof against it, it becomes "law"

So let's really be scientific about this.

My challenge to you (and anyone who wants) is to disprove the existence of God.

I've always like this:

The Riddle of Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Faith is bollocks.

You're welcome to your opinion. In mine, it is very hard to keep faith, and so I have a great deal of admiration for those who do.

-A.

Here is what I say...
I believe in God. It is my choice. It works for me. I do not expect people to beleive in God just because I do.
I know that he does exsist. I have my own proof. Personal proof.
I can't give you the proof I have and expect it to be enough for you to believe. That proof is a gift that one gets on thier own and in ones own time. To each his own.
You are right though, you can't prove the exsistance of God, you can't force people to believe.
But you can't deny that people have felt his presence and experienced his amazing healing power.

I think these questions apply here: Is it permissible for a reasonable scientist to fake his data? Can you describe evolution (which I am a vehement PRO-ponet of) without ever using the words best, better, optimum, or fittest? I think the argument over "God" is really just one over semantics.

I think also of the line in Carl Sagan's Contact When the heroine was asked if she loved her dead father and she said "yes, of course" the reply was simply "prove it"

The Riddle of EpicurusIs God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

God is able, and willing, but man must first give up his pride and selfishness and depend on a higher being. God allows man to choose, thus the Eden incident. Those who believe and obey will be the ones that will not fear of "evil."

God will not force himself onto man. Man has a choice.

If you believe that God created man, that is why he created man... angels did not have a choice...God created angels to believe in him. Man was created to serve God...but only by choice.

As to proving if God exists...the point is moot. You will believe only what you want to.

"Proof" is not neccessary to those that want to believe, only to those that don't want to.

Angloesque

Um, I sort of thought that was what faith is all about...?

You're right. A+ But which is greater, faith or knowledge, why?
Thanks for the warm invite!
AT

InfoGeek

However, the argument could be made that any figure from that time period did not exist. No one living today has seen them and all we have are stories, images and the effect of that person on people.

With this reasoning, how can we know anything except the present, and how can we even know that? You make a good point, faith plays a huge role in EVERYTHING that we claim to know. Good thoughts. Thank you!
AT

Myrrander

Faith is bollocks

Thanks for the comment, why do you say that?
AT

BlueDev

Science doesn't try to prove anything. It never has, and it never will.

You caught me. It was a loaded question. You are completely correct. True science doesn't try to prove anything, but once you get outside of the most respected scientific journals, it is not presented that way. Most of the time proof after proof is simply lined up against Christian apologetic proofs trying to cancel each other out. I mean, you are right, but most of the time the information is not presented in a "this has not been disproved" manner. You headed directly where I was thinking. You can neither prove, nor disprove God. The same is true for many mathematical proofs. Can you prove that two parallel lines never meet? Can you prove that they do? Not really. Yet whole systems of geometry are based on those to conclusions, euclidian and non-euclidian. Great post, thanks for the comments.
AT

Myrrander
Many people struggle with those questions, both believers and non believers. How would you answer them?
AT

Angloesque

In mine, it is very hard to keep faith, and so I have a great deal of admiration for those who do.

I agree, faith in anything is hard to keep, especially faith in God. Keep at it. Keep questioning.
AT

Brenda Holiday

That proof is a gift that one gets on thier own and in ones own time. To each his own.

Thanks for sharing you thoughts, they are really good. One question though, if one gets proof of God in ones own time etc...how do you share your faith? I guess my question is, how do you evangelize?
AT

Shovelheat

I think the argument over "God" is really just one over semantics.

Very interesting. I would like to read some more explaination of the above quote. Thanks.
AT

Silver_and_Jade_Tears

God is able, and willing, but man must first give up his pride and selfishness and depend on a higher being.

Thanks for the thoughts. However, if God is both willing to do something and able to do it yet does not because of a human choice, does that not make God a puppet of his creation? It puts God reacting to us.

"Proof" is not neccessary to those that want to believe, only to those that don't want to.

A fairly true statement. People want proof in general. Christians say, "prove that the big bang happened", non-believers may say, "proof the a god exsists." Both positions take faith of some sort.
AT

...how do you share your faith? I guess my question is, how do you evangelize?

AT: That is a tough one to answer. I am personally a little put out by evangelizm. I think if people want to know about God they will ask you. I don't think it is apropriate to stuff ones beliefes down someones throat if they are not interested.
To answer your question about sharing your faith, It kind of falls under the same lines of the above.
I share it if people want to know. I keep it honest and simple.
Sometimes people are convinced and other times they are not. It depends on how open thier minds are.
In a nut shell: I was in a auto accident a few years back, I broke pretty much all of my important bones, head, neck, back. the doctors were sure 100% I would have paralasys of the right side of my body. that I would never be the same. I walked out of the hospital three days later fine and healthy.

Great post, thanks for the comments. AT

No problem. Do I get a gold star?

It is important for people to think about these things though. I am absolutely, 100%, a religious, God fearing person. So I do believe. But it must be a personal discovery.

Silver_and_Jade_Tears God is able, and willing, but man must first give up his pride and selfishness and depend on a higher being. Thanks for the thoughts. However, if God is both willing to do something and able to do it yet does not because of a human choice, does that not make God a puppet of his creation? It puts God reacting to us.

To be honest, I don't think he's reacting to us, but rather by letting us choose, he shows his love for us.

He loves us because we are his children.

A parent of a child wants to keep that child away from harm as best as possible,
However that parent knows that that child will make mistakes, and he/she will be hurt,
Instead of protecting the child from every mistake, the parent lets the child make some of these mistakes,
and so the child learns from them.

Peace,

Beebes

Brenda Holiday

I walked out of the hospital three days later fine and healthy.

Wow! That is amazing! Thanks for sharing this great story of yours!

I think if people want to know about God they will ask you.

I know many people who are put out by evangelism and "sharing their faith." However, should Chrisitans determine what they do by what they think or by the Bible?
I really appriciate your comments, I love to read how other people view things. Thanks!
AT

BlueDev

Do I get a gold star?

Sure do! Well...uh...I'm a little short on gold stars at the moment, how about a party smilely face?

Death_By_Beebles

Instead of protecting the child from every mistake, the parent lets the child make some of these mistakes, and so the child learns from them.

Well done. I think a great text for that would be Hosea 11. Thanks!
AT

Hey there Jeremy! It's great to see you on here. I don't have anything smart to say, but I love you. That is all.

Prove God does not exist, and I will then prove that he does.

Who is to say that the big bang is not the handiwork of a greater diety? Evolution merely a tool for a higher power? Who are we to know the mind and will of the universe? To define God is to be obtusely arrogant, to deny the possibility of God is ignorance defined.

It takes as much faith to say that God doesn't exist as it does to say He does exist. Science CANNOT say that God doesn't exist, or it ceases to be science. You can say that you have no proof for God, you can say that based upon what we know you don't BELIEVE in God. You cannot, though, say accurately that there is no God, unless you have a complete grasp of the universe and everything in it. Period.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

The problem with this riddle is that it leaves out 'Free Will'. God cannot interfere, or he destroys our free will.

Apparenlty you have never heard of tough love. I sure as hell hope you are not raising children, or we will have a bunch of spoiled brats, or thugs roaming our streets.

"Proof" is not neccessary to those that want to believe, only to those that don't want to

Excellant response and the answer to the thread's question! As Kierkegaard said, you can only go so far in proving God Exists. Then you must make a leap of faith.

My challenge to you (and anyone who wants) is to disprove the existence of God.

That's exactly it...

I choose to believe, so I see evidence of God everywhere...in circumstances in my own life to just things in nature. Take pregnancy for instance. What are the chances that cells that we can't see with the eye are going to meet up and make the beginnings of a baby? And then, after that, what are the chances that the embryo is going to implant itself in a place where it will be able to grow? And then...for all the things that can go wrong, birth defects, miscarriage, etc., look at how many babies arrive healthy and thriving? And then...look at how many of those babies live to a ripe old age and have babies of their own?

Its amazing to me. The human body is just something that's the ultimate proof to me that God is there.

My relationship with Him is the ultimate proof to me that God cares, too.

I choose to believe, so I see evidence of God everywhere

As do I Marcie.

The reason I presented the question was simply because as impossible as it is to unequivocally prove God exists, it is just as impossible to prove He doesn't exist. Frankly, I believe that is part of His plan. If there was proof one would not need faith. And without the need to exercise faith, what would be the purpose?