Two Messiahs

In the end, we decided that a Messiah was crucial to Christians but not to Jews.  They should keep theirs and we will continue to work with God to make the world a place the Messiah would wish to come.

Help me understand this Sodaiho.  You're saying the Jews are not interested in the Messiah as outlined in the Torah and the Prophets? 

But aren't Jews (not reformed) still awaiting their Messiah as outlined in their scriptures? 

From a Christian prophetic POV using both OT and NT we see that there will be a false Messiah that the Jews will embrace as the real deal.  He will have amazing capabilities including the abiliity to usher in peace for the whole world.  From our POV we see that as happening imminently and he will be the Anti-Christ.  Anti  means not only "against" as in against Christ but also "in place of."  So he will come in place of the much anticipated Messiah. 

I actually attended a huge bible study here in my new surroundings yesterday for the first time. .  The leader, Marv Rosenthal is a Jewish Christian who totally blew me away.  I don't say that often but he did.  I read about this in the local paper and decided to check it out.  I'd say over 300 people were there and have been meeting since May.   He has a magazine you can get free for one year called Zion's Fire.  Why not check him out.  You'd have some really good discussion surrounding the teachings of this Rosenthal. 

I'm planning on going back and brnging peope next week.  Totally blew me away. 

 

Good Afternoon, KFC,

 

The concensus in our group, and as I understand in general, is that the Messiah coming is important, but not central.  Remember, from a Jewish POV, the messiah is not a God, not a soul savior, just a man who leads us to a peaceful, suffering free world. Christian theologians, etc. have co-opted the term, changed the meaning of the Holy Scriptures, to suit their needs in establishing Jesus as their messiah.  The only group of Jews I am aware of that believe there wil be a messiah and hold that belief as a aspect of faith in a person are the Orthodox.

 

It is our job to work with God as partners.  In this, we are all messiahs. 

 

My Christian friend was flabbergasted, I think, when he heard our group say that when the messiah comes he would not be "worshipped".  He would simply be a man or woman like any of us.

 

Be well.

Yes, and that mentality is what we see from the Pharisees.  We see the total rejection of Jesus as Messiah for that very reason.  He did not come and do what was expected.  He did not come and throw off the yoke of Rome from their backs and for that they turned on him. They rejected his claim as God and had him crucified. 

 So I can understand what you're saying.  But from what I see from reading both the words of Christ and the law and prophets is that they totally didn't understand (as they should have) their own scriptures.  I see the same today from the Christians.  They totally don't have a clue what these scriptures say even after sitting in church for 50 years because their leaders don't have a clue.  It's the blind leading the blind which is what Christ accused the Pharisees of doing.

I think I agree here although I'd put in the Jews who have become Christians so the Jews for Jesus group I'd put in.  They did not leave their Jewishness behind because they accepted Jesus as Messiah.

I couldn't disagree more here, as you probably know.  This sounds like it came right out of the Garden of Eden.  Satan said to Eve......."you shall be as gods." 

I'm with your friend.  This doesn't sound like what the Jewish Scriptures taught.  RIght off I think of Isaiah who said this:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."  9:6

We see here the child is born speaks of Christ's humanity.  The son IS GIVEN speaks of his divinity.  His name shall be called the Mighty God speaks of Elohim.  Did you notice this child will be called The Everlasting Father as well as the Prince of Peace? 

The first part of this speaks of his incarnation the second part is his second coming.  He's more than just a peace deliverer, in other words.  Only God can bring everlasting Peace.  Man cannot. 

What I've seen over the years digging into the Jewish scriptures is the fact that the OT Prophets did not see the church age.  They looked ahead and saw the birth of this son.  They saw his suffering and then they saw him as conqueror and deliverer.  The problem is they didn't see clearly nor expect that the Gentiles would be involved and that God would turn to the Gentiles after their own people rejected Him.  So they didn't see the gap between his suffering and the end where his reign comes into play. 

In other words the church age (these 2000 years) are like a blip that goes under their prophetic radar screen. 

If you get some time, and if you haven't heard of this, do some perusing into Sir Robert Anderson's "The Coming Prince."  It's pretty interesting and fits this topic. 

 

The more disturbing aspect, I think, is an unwillingness to study much of anything that is outside the stamp of Christian approval or an unwillingness to grant that other POVs might be as valid as theirs.  Christianity really should set aside its use of Hebrew Scriptures.  Christians only use them in an ahistoric way to bolster their arguments, as if God really needs a prosecuter. 

 

Much of Scripture is written in what are called noun sentances.  No verbs. It is for this reason, as well as the fact that words take on seriously different meanings in each and every cultural and temporal context, that bible can be so misused. 

 

The prophets were not like fortune tellers, although people from fundamentalist backgrounds would like us to believe this.  They were people who meditated; mystics who opened themselves to the Infinite and were able to cast a contemporary context in a way that demanded change. 

 

KFC suggests we are not God's partners in life.  OK.  She is entitled to that opinion.  Yet, this is really only becvause she would have to begin to see the existential truth of human being, that we make ourselves through our choices and these choices are only real when they are made manifest through our actions, what fundies call "works".  Sad really. as such a virew makes hypocracy completely plausable and possible.

 

Be well.

 

 

Good Day, So Daiho,

I enjoyed reading your article as well as everyone's comments.

I'm just getting back in the swing of things here at JU and cannot find how to quote from the original article.

You wrote: I found that language was a core problem.  Defining terms shared by both faith traditions was an absolute must otherwise people could be greatly mistaken thinking that they had actually been understood when they had not.

I certainly agree and cannot emphasis enough how important it is when discussing differences on any given topic to make sure everyone is on the same page as far as definitions. It was Voltaire, one of the Enlightenment's icons, who said, "If you wish to converse with me, first define your terms."

You also write: In our group we have  one neo-Orthodoxer, a few Conservatives, and two Reconstructionists, but most of us are Reform.  So, the discussion was lively and very interesting. 

 In the end, we decided that a Messiah was crucial to Christians but not to Jews. 

Catholics have always understood the Hebrew word "Messias" meaning anointed one was translated into Greek by the word "Christos" from which we derive the word Christ.

So, the group decided the Messias wasn't crucial to the Jews? Really? Doesn't make sense. Even a cursory reading reveals that the Jews of our Lord's time expected a Messias becasue He had been promised to them in many OLd Testament prophecies.  Jesus Christ is the predicted Messias. 

For over 2,000 years the prophets declared that God had revealed to them the coming of Jesus, the Messias, Who was to be the Redeemer of the world. It begins in Genesis3:15 by God Himself who promises a Redeemer to Adam. He is to be of the stock of Sem ,9:26, of Abraham , 22, 24:17; of Isaac, 26:4, of Jacob 28:14, Num. 24:17, of the tribe of Juda, Gen.49:8-10; and of the family of David, Is 9:7.

Moses declares that He will be a great Prophet Deut. 18:18, Isaias 2:4 says that His coming will be preceded by a universal peace (Pax Romana), and Malachais 3:1 writes of His precursor. Is. 7:14, prophecies  that He is to be born of a Virgin in the city of Bethlehem Mich. v. 2, before the complete subjection of Israel, and the destruction of the second temple Gen. 49:10; Dan. 9: 24-27.

The prophets continually style the Messias the Lord, Psalm 2:2,Jesus or the Savior, Is. 2:5, Habac 3:8, the Mighty God, Is. 9:6, the Emmanuel, or God with us, Is. 7:14, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace Is. 9:6.  Isaias tells of His public preaching, 9:1-2, HIs miracles, 35: 5-6, and the Psalms of His poverty, 86:16, His obedience and meekness, 39:9, 119:7, His founding of a universal, eternal kingdom 44:7-8; 2:7-8.

Isaias 8:14 tells that Christ will be a rock of scandal and the occasion of ruin for many; that He'll be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zach 11:12 and led as a lamb to the slaughter, Is.53:7, to be crucified, Zach. 8:6, while the people mock Him, Jer.20:7, Ps. 21:8, the soldiers cast lots for His garments, 21:19, and offer Him vinegar to drink, 68:10, His body free from corruption, 15:10, and He shall dwell at the right hand of God 15:11, to pour forever His Spirit upon all flesh. Joel 2:28.

In light of the NT, these many prophecies prove that Christ was Divine. Job 19: 25-26 identifies the Messias with God: "I know that my Redeemer liveth and in the last day I shall rise out of the earth..and in my flesh I shall see my God."

 The Psalms,  the sublime hymn book of Israel, declare that the Messias is the Eternal God whose reign shall be everlasting. "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotton Thee." 2:7, "Thy throne is forever and ever...God, thy God has anointed Thee." 44:7-8. Jeremias 14:8 foretold that Jesus Christ was "The Expectation of Isreal, the Savior", the "Consolation of Israel", so confidently awaited by the aged Simeon.

LW POSTS:

 

Christ Himself always claimed to have fulfilled the prophecies. He said, "Search the Scriptures...the same are they that give testimony of Me."Quoting ISaias in the synagague at Nazareth, He said, "This day is fulfilled the Scriptures in your ears."  When the woman of Samaria spoke of the Messias to come, Christ said to her, "I am He who is speaking with thee." When the disciples on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize Him as the Risen Christ, He "beginning at Moses, and all the prophets, expounded to them in all the Scriptures, the things that were concerning Him."

 

 

 

I had a large response written about how, according to KFC's Bible (since we know that's what it takes with her) we are, in fact, partners with God and can actually be saviors of a type ourselves.

Never mind, it's not worth it.  It would be like pounding my pretty little face into a gigantic brick wall.

SoDaiho posts:

Staying with the topic concerning the Messias...we have clearly seen that there are opposite views concerning Christ as the Messias. Fact is, they can't both be valid or true...and this should be the essence of the debate that has gone on for millenia now.

You write:

Is this POV the truth? I think not becasue truth requires consistency and God has a right to be believed when He reveals a definite doctrine. You write that you find it a disturbing aspect that Christians are unwilling to grant that others pov's are as valid as theirs. No one who understands Sacred Scripture could entertain loose ideas on this subject. St.Paul wrote to the Galatians, Though we, or an angel from heaven preach a Gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed." To Timothy he wrote, "I desired thee to remain at Ephesus that thou might charge some not to teach otherwise, ...if any man teach otherwise, and consent not to the sound words of Jesus Christ and to that doctrine which is according to godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing. So for me, it is right there, quite evident from the NT, that differences in doctrine do matter very much and that compromise in such things is impossible.

When Christ stood before Pilate, Pilate said to Him, "What is truth?"

Vainly could we look for a clearer or more comprehensive statement of the mission of Christ Jesus in the world than we have in His solemn answer to Pilate. "For this was I born and for this came I into the world, that I should give testimony to the truth."

Christ's one outstanding all embracing and all pervading purpose is to give testimony to the truth in order that His testimony may be received at its full value. Evidently, therefore, Christ is telling the governor that the truth is all that counts.

So, by those very words Christ Jesus tells us too that all that counts for us is the truth, His truth, His whole truth, and nothing but His whole truth...for He is the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. There's only one plan of salvation for us not many paths. Christ DOESN'T say, I am a way, one of many ways, not I am an expounder of some truths, nor I am a life-giver, one of many such.

So Daiho, you write:

In the end, we decided that a Messiah was crucial to Christians but not to Jews.  They should keep theirs and we will continue to work with God to make the world a place the Messiah would wish to come.

Christ said to the Jews who believed in Him: "If you cntinue in My word, you shall be My disciples indeed. and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."  Consider the words of St.John and St. James. Without Christ or apart from Him, there is spiritually only aimless wandering, only doubt, error, and grossest ignorance, only sickness, disease, and death.

We all have an obligation to the truth. It matters. We should all think well on cold indifference to the truth, on fearing, shunning or refusing it; on opposing or distorting any one of the divinely precious and sweet truths.

It matters for our own sanctification and perfection, and even for our salvation. It matters as much as it matters whether we respect or ignore a cliff ahead of us.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Com'on Sodaiho how many times have I said I've studied all sorts of things outside the realm of Christian thinking?   After all of it, none of it makes any sense in light of the teachings of Christ.  Also, I keep saying it's not about my opinion or POV.  For me it's not I but Christ.

Again, LW....... you do not know me and you assume much about me.  You are WRONG yet again here.  I actually asked him what kind of synagogue he went to and told him I'd be interested in going with him to check it out.   In fact, I was on the phone with him this morning.   But thanks for asking first before you assumed the "worst" in me yet again. 

Time and time again you interject just to be a distraction, not really adding anything just showing up to create a diversion.  Interesting. 

Let's stick to the issues LW instead of the bashing....shall we? 

First off it's not MY bible.  If you got a problem with it, it's not me you have to take it up with.  I'm just a messenger.  Show me in scripture where it says we can be saviors ourselves SC. 

*sitting back....gotta see this one.*

You don't seem to answer the hard questtions SC.  Still waiting for your answer on my blog that you ignored. 

 

 

Like I said, banging my pretty little face into a brick wall isn't something I like to do on a regular basis, sister. So I abstain.

Or;

It's not fair for major-league heavy hitters like myself to go up against peewee pitchers. You're askin' for a shiner.

I'm done talking religion on this forum.

 

Hello Lula, good to see you again. Annointed has a very different connotaion is biblical times.  Lots of people were annointed.  It did not mean you were God which would have been a heretical statement.  Jews today in the main have begun to understand messianic thinking more in terms of an "Age" rather than a person.  We work to create a better world and do this not only to please God, but to perfect Him, as well.  There is a myth in the Zohar I think that suggests when God created the universe He made it too big for its container and it burst into fragments.  We are together with God putting the pieces back together again, hence the phrase tikkun olam, repairing the world, a modern reference to social action.

 

In such a world, we are all partners with God and in such a world a messiah as a redeemer from the physical ills of the world is more tangential.  As a matter of fact, we assume this role ourselves.

 

Be well  

 

Lula, no one who understands scripture would ever suggest that they atre understood one dimensionally.  Scripture was written over the ages in a variety of contexts and language nuances.  I do not regard the New Testament as scripture, certainly not Holy scripture, and so a reference to it is essentially meaningless to me.  Now from your POV its wonderful and reveals something that will assist you in getting closer to God. That is wonderful.

 

My practice and faith tradition does the same for me.  That is wonderful. 

 

You and KFC are of the POV that there can only be one truth.  Not so.  Tuth is always multifaceted.  To see truth as one dimensional is sad and, moreover, actually harms your faith and spiritual practice.

 

Be well.

 

 

 

Hello KFC, I do not think I'm off the mark here.  Your references are always of a Christian nature. You study at a university that is notorious for vetting its faculty and admitting only "believers" meaning faculty who have the same view of things as the rest of the faculty.   To study one must approach a topic with an open mind, KFC, not a mind already made up to the truth and the truth is a one dimensional monolith.  I believe Christianity is the truth, as id Zen Buddhism, Judaism, and even Hinduism.  I am a tad suspect of Islam, but am willing to read it for itself rather than to find its faults.

 

Fundamentalists read to find fault.  They encounter to winess and to attempt to convert.  I believe this to be a flawed spiritual practice and one of great error.

 

Be well.

 

 

SC boldly asserts:

Thanks KFC for challenging:

SC:

KFC,

Thanks for showing SC's true colors....he thought he hit a fast ball home run and you caught it and tagged him out..

SC,

making assertions about religion and then refusing to back-up those doesn't cut it...your face might be pretty, but right now it has mud all over it.. 

This discussion is posted on a relgion forum....why are you done talking religion?

So Daiho posts:

It's true, the prophets were not fortune tellers. Both Jewish and Christian traditions hold the prophets in high regard becasue prophecy was an integral part of the religious heritage of Israel and these books (16 in all) record the word of God addressed to His people through the oracles of the prophets.

The word "prophet" comes from the Greek pro-phetes meaning "to speak on behalf of someone". It therefore has nothing whatsoever to do with predicting the future, an activity described in Greek as mantis.  The Hebrew word for pro-phetes is nabi, and it's reference too is religious. Nabi came to mean "one chosen by God to speak in His name".

From a literary point of view prophetical books are different from others as the prophet would address the people in a speech, to move their hearts and exhort them to mend their ways. The most common form of peophetical expression ia a solemn statement made in the name of God involving either denunciation or a promise of salvation. So, in the strict sense, it is not a predicition of concrete events, but rather a proclamation of God's plan which will always be realized. It could be addressed to a particular individual, a group, or the whole nation.

The ones that involved prophecying Christ include the messianic and most of the eschataological oracles. Messianic hope forms the backbone of the prophetical books. They get across the idea that salvation will come through a descendent of David (royal messianism). the notion they have of the Messias looks to the future so that the reigning kings pales into insignificance. they encourage to place their hopes in "the Lord's anointed" who is soon to come.

Yes, true enough, but we must be very careful about what we think this messianic hope actually means.  Christians took the meaning to point to their God.  Jews took it very differently and continue to debate about its meaning even now.  "Salvation"  was not about individual salvation but getting back on track spiritually.  Jews have never been particularly eschatalogical, preferring instead to be pragmatic and focusing their attention on the here and now.

 

Thanks, Lula.

 

Be well. 

 

Really, so 1+1=5 as well as 1? I mean when you get down to it isn't that really what it's all about? You can make truth to be what you want it to be?

So it's ok to murder someone? If it's my truth doesn't that make it truth?



Of course they are, and yours is always of Buddhist nature right? So? What's your point? No room at the inn for the Christian?



Yes and no. Yes, I do study right now from Liberty. Yes. But remember I spent 13 years in a non-Christian school system. I also spent years immersed in non-Christian cults. So in all reality I'm pretty well rounded. Besides all that even with the LIberty professors I might have a disagreement here and there on theology...not on essentials but on the non-essentials and that's ok. I can actually think of one that I would differ with most of the Prof's at Liberty on. But it's a non-essential and not worth dividing over.



How can that be when they contradict each other. The Christian says Jesus is God. Now I know the Jew says no and I'm pretty sure the Buddhist doesn't believe in this either. So how can they all be telling us the truth? I don't get this line of thinking Sodaiho. Maybe it's as you say, I'm not "open minded enough."



And the non-Christians don't read to find fault with the Christian doctrine? Are you kidding me? While I'm guilty of witnessing (to any that will listen) I'm not into the convert or you die stuff. Conversion isn't my thing.



hahahahah that's funny Lula. I expected a "no" answer from him. It's much easier to take a hit at me than to back up their own statements with facts. I never accused SC of hitting and running before but I'm starting to think we may have another one here.



Ya, that's what I was thinking as well. It's like a crime for us to speak about religion on a religion forum. Not sure what that's all about.

quote]Really, so 1+1=5 as well as 1? I mean when you get down to it isn't that really what it's all about? You can make truth to be what you want it to be? So it's OK to murder someone? If it's my truth doesn't that make it truth? [/quote]

 

Yes. There is a problem with truth, always, as it is always subject to the perceiver and the context of the perception.  Language, especially biblical language is even more challenging as we do not have a complete picture of the cultural and linguistic context.  So, what is truth?  Is light a particle or a wave?

[quote]Hello KFC, I do not think I'm off the mark here. Your references are always of a Christian nature [quote] Of course they are, and yours is always of Buddhist nature right? So? What's your point? No room at the inn for the Christian? [/quote

Not at all.  I read and welcome Christian sources, the New Testament, interpretations written by Christian scholars.  And I try to understand them for the truths they may offer.  I study Hebrew, Hebrew bible, Jewish sources, Buddhist texts, Buddhist sources, all the same way, not to discredit them but to seek their common denominators.  How can we each inform one another?  On the other hand, you seem to read your sources for how they are true and others are untrue.  This is hardly scholarly and an assault to truth itself. So, I suggest my approach to study is very different way of studying than I suggest you do.

][

I think that is true, you are not open minded. I can say we are all divine, infused with God, and at the same time say that one man is not God incarnate. To collapse a paradox or a contradiction, you must enter it fully and completely.  Zen Buddhists do this, Jewish and Christian mystics do this.  Fundamentalists rely on the written Word in a language and sociological-historical context as foreign to them as Mars is to Venus.

I am sure some do, but you miss my point I think.  Let's take Venerable Thich Nhat Hahn for instance.  He wrote at least two really wonderful books attempting to find common ground between Christ and Buddha.  He, like the Dalai Lama, ask seekers who come to them to remain true to their original faith.  Let's face it,, this would not even come close to happening at Liberty U.

I think you are being disingenuous.  Of course you are out to covert.  You are certainly not out to learn.  When you invite a Jew to your church its to be nice?  BS.  You are hopeful that he or she will see the light.  Its not an ecumenical gesture, its a manipulative tactic to win a soul.

 

 

 

 

Not so sure I want to do that, LW, but sometimes we have to call a spade a spade, as they say.

 

I believe fundamentalists care for others, its just that its misplaced. We should care by doing, not by manipulating or blindly playing a religious version of stone, paper, scissors.

 

Life is complex, rarely either/or.  It is rich, full, and vibrant.  While I have some time to explore with fundies, I work on practicing tolerance with them.  

 

Likewise in the political arena.  There seem to be some rather nasty, mean-spirited souls there, and this is hardly conducive to dialogue that expands our understanding and assists us toward finding common ground.  But then, I am learning many do not want to share ground at all.  I slip on occasion myself...but then if I didn't I'd be perfect and that ain't possible, on the one hand, but we are all thoroughly perfect, on the other. 

Be well young lady 

 

 

There I go, slipping into Zen mode again.  Crap.

So that's what this is turning into huh?  Nothing more than a Christian bashing site? 

As Sodaiho says....

See ya! 

 

 

For the record, Lula and KFC -

There's a whole hell of a lot more to JU than the religion forums. Obviously religion must play a small part of JU, since it doesn't even merit a link in the sidebar anymore. So you can joke amongst yourselves all you want about me posting on a "religion" forum, but this isn't one. It's a public forum that happens to have a small religion section, of which I have, at times, partaken in the debate.

I'm done with that. In fact, I'm done with a lot of JU. I'm tired of the fights, I'm tired of the retarded pundits who continue to spout nonsense at the top of their digital lungs, and I'm tired of you alls.

I'll still post, but less frequently. You can always go to my blog and read all about Spain, since I'm the only chump who ever posts in the "travel" section. (Of course, the "travel" section was important enough to put on the sidebar, but I digress.)

This isn't just a religious forum, and it hasn't turned into a "Christian-bashing site." Climb off your cross.

Dear KFC,

No bashing intended from me. Intellectual and curiousity as regards how fundamentalist seem to hold on to dichotomous thinking when the univrerse is full of billions upon billions of possibilities.

You say you are here to learn?  Show me.  Show me that you can understand more than one way to see a truth. Show me you can be still and be present and allow the universe to speak to you.

 

Even though we regard sacred scripture highly, it isn't worth much more than toilet paper if we don't crack it open and appreciate it. This means looking deeply into its real meanings, not some superficial blathering of evengelists hellbent on getting wider audiences and deeper pockets, or just plain looking good on the tube

 

Christ lived a dirty life, close to people who really needed him.  The rabbis of old did the same, as do many today.  Monks of all sorts work their prayers, rendering them in sweet and blood. Real Christians do the same.  Frankly when struggling against warfare, poverty, sickness, and death, all this crap about messiahs makes me sick.  There are far morethan two messiahs, people.  There are as many as there are possible souls with work to do. 

And you think you should just wave a spiffy clean g'day?  KFC, I'm surprised in you.

Be well.

 

 

 

Let's play as nicely as possible.

 

Asaxygirl, thank you.  Lets both shine on.

 

See ya.

good day Sodaiho,

my computer is in the shop and today I'm using my daughter's laptop. manuevering without a mouse and a different keyboard is a quite a new experience. I cannot figure out how to USE the quote.

To me religion is the most important subject of all. I admit I do enjoy defending the Christianity and the Catholic faith in pARTICULAR. Thusfar, no one has been able to unsettle me.

With a controversial title like Two Messiahs, I'm glAD THAT YOU tolerate my unwillingness to grant other religious points of views as equally valid. The touchy feely approach to all religions as being equally valid (bowing down to religious relativism) isn't reasoned thinking . I hoped we could agree on at least one thing...that truth matters. By Your reply 21, Guess not. Too bad, I always thought that good things arose from a grasp of truth and evil thinngs from a rejection of truth. We've seen that it no longer matters to many people if such and such is true..The worldlings say..There is a truth for you and a truth for me.


So far in defending our respective positions, I'd say that KFC and I have won since SC when challenged backed out of the discussion and Asaxygirl rather than use her mind to rebut our positions, prefers labeling and name calling and LW, well, even though she's "given up" long ago, she nonetheless keeps coming round the religion category. This, I think is a good thing.

I enjoy reasoned discussion that defends a position strongly held...and on topic, mine is that Christ is indeed crucial to Jews as He is to everyone for salvation. Pontius Pilate asked Christ, What is truth? not realizing that Truth was staring him in the face.