I want to comment on the proposed question of whether Heaven will be an exclusive community. Everyone has the choice to believe in God or not. He, himself does not exclude anyone. We, ourselves, choose whether or not to accept him. Heaven can be a place for everyone if they choose. People who do not choose to accept Him would have a prospective that heaven would be an excluded community, but in reality they chose not to believe.

The Greek system on the other hand would be an exclusive community. The people within the system choose who they want to join their sorority or fraternity. When one chooses to join either one of these organizations, their loyalty to that group is a must, but not to an extent that anyone who is not in your sorority can not be your friend. There are activities within a sorority that exclude non-members, such as chapter meetings and such things as that.

One thing I picked up on during Dr. Hubbs¡¯ lecture was the comment that loyalty is a special relationship. Loyalty has two sides; inclusion and exclusion. Loyalty can be a good thing if it is for the right purpose because we all put loyalty in our lives somewhere, whether it is in school, work, friends, organizations, or family.

As a few other people, I too was sitting in the back of the auditorium and was therefore not completely able to hear all that Professor Hubbs was saying. However, his lecture made me think about a lot of things that have gone on and are currently going on not only in Greensboro but in many other places including my neighborhood and this college. Loyalty is such a conceptual topic and so each individual defines it in a different way.
I cannot really relate to having loyalty to my community because I simply live there and am not extremely close to any of the families within it. As far as school loyalty goes, I think that it depends on if you like your school that will determine whether you will be loyal to it or not. Almost every highschool has rivals and though I had not really thought about it until after Prof. Hubbs' lecture, the cheering and such that goes on at games is not so much support for the team to which you are loyal but cheering against the other team. This is indeed a outward reflection of loyalty but at the same time is a negative effect that extreme loyalty has.
Though it is said that all of the fraternities and sororities here get along, which for the most part I believe that they do respect each other, there are definitely rivals simply because of human nature. Obviously, there is a reason that you chose a certain Greek organization, if you did at all, and you will thus feel that they are better than the rest. There is healthy competition that goes on which I believe is a positive effect of loyalty.
The church that I went to when I was growing up was a very open minded and accepting one. Though it was a Baptist church, we still had female preachers and homosexual deacons. Everyone who went to this church had loyalty to it because it was so accepting of all people. This again, is an example of a positive effect of loyalty without prejudice. I think that all religion are, in fact, equal. Like Courtney said, I too get angry when people suggest that there is only one religion that is right. As she said, a higher being is a higher being whether you call it God, Buddha, etc...; who is to say that you are right or wrong?
Overall, I think that loyalty is a good thing but I do understand that it can have negative effects. Moreover, loyalty can be taken too far to the point of being unfair and prejudice. Really, it depends on the person and how dedicated to whatever organization, person, etc... that they are. Professor Hubbs' lecture brought to my attention that loyalty, which is usually thought of and considered a very positive thing, can in fact have negative effects on people and their communities, as was the case in Greensboro.

Professor Hubbs' lecture put a spin on loaylty and really made me think when I applied it to my own life experience. I was not fortunate to be sitting up front listening intenely, but instead was sitting in the very back row behind someone else's chair having multiple leg cramps from the hard surface. None the less I did get some things out of it. I heard bits and pieces of a "Gone With the Wind" concept and how it is very pioneer-like. Moving on, I would like to answer Mr. Tatter's questions on loyalty. I am Jewish and have have always grown up with lots of non-Jewish friends. I have been in many circumstances where I was offered something not Kosher, being that food, and I've needed to explain why I must not consume that particular product. I have been asked to attend youth group or church's with friends and families and have been asked to bow my head in the church basketball court when I was 8 before the game. Each time I kept my head up because I was afraid God would hate me for not being loyal. I have obviously become much more optimistic since those instances and have developed a more independent outlook on my religion. All of these situations I have been faced with are examples of loyalty. I was taught rules and regulations to live by in pure respect adn loyalty to my religion. I never thought I was better than anyone because they were eating meat and cheese, nor did I think the cross was a negative symbol. I simply respected it for what it was, but have remained loyal to my religion because it gives me a sense of accomplishment. I do not want to think I have cheated on Judaism or have been sneaky in my ways. Over the years I have definitely tapered down the rules and I am not harsh on myself with the rules like I used to be. I have realized that loyalty is not wethere or not I wait 2 hours to eat dairy after meat, or wether or not I put cheese on my burger. These are simply traidtions that I can choose to weigh myself down with. I believe in them from a reformed view but do not find it necessary to treat them like I did when I was younger. Loyalty is dedication and respect to one's community and it helps one with there dignity. If they nkow they have not done anything deceitful, then they are being loyal, and it has it's benefits of feeling respectful and accomplished

I think Professor Hubbs described loyalty very well. Many times when an individual becomes a part of a group they feel the need to exclude others. Maybe they do this to devote all of their efforts to serving the group. This exclusion and devotion is very prevalent in competitive arenas. I know that it is possible to be loyal to your group, but still mix with others. This type of loyalty is a weak form of devotion, so therefore such people are not so committed to their group that they look at others as outsiders. The individuals that do this, I believe, are just more loyal in personality and have a greater need for the kind of attachment that this loyalty to a group brings. Ultimately, all unified loyalty comes down to is that a number of people that share common likes and dislikes join together to support their likes and dislikes, so therefore each other. I think this atmosphere is good for the people involved because they do not wish to be alone, like to have similarities with others, and need others' support. That need for support during the war, about which Professor Hubbs was speaking, I believe aroused because of the current time of hardship that the town of Greensboro was facing, and it is easier to accept people and join together when you’re all in the same boat wishing the same things for your town and/or country.

What does it mean to discriminate? Is it always a bad thing? If one is loyal does that mean that he or she is discrimanatory? Well, first let me give you an example: I have hopes to one day attend medical school and receive my doctorate. I must possess good grades, show strong leadership and dedication qualities, perform well on the MCAT (Medical College Admissions Test), and go through several interviews, this is just to get in to Med School. Once I am there the work only begins, but I want to back up for a moment and talk about the selection process. As I have shown, it is not simple to get into Medical School, but if it were would you trust jsut any doctor with your life? I know I wouldn't. This whole process of becoming a doctor is designed to be discriminatory, but that does not mean it is a bad thing- it simply sets apart the qualified from everyone else. So, discrimination does not have to be a bad thing, and loyalty does not ever require one to hate another. Therefore, discrimination is sometimes necessary, not always bad, and loyalty has little to do directly with discrimination. I want to talk today about the more heavenly side of discrimination, God's discrimination

I am a believer in a Holy God, who by His sovereign choice created man in His own image. He did not choose to make any of the animals or plants in His image, but us! He also chose to give us the freedom of choice. Sometimes we make a bad choice and we face the consequences, but none the less, we can make our own decisions. God also "created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), and because of man's sin, a place called Hell. Every man/woman who sins is punished to spend eternity apart from God in Hell, but (please don't miss this) being the wonderful Creator he is, God created a way for man to escape this punishment; God sent his Son, Jesus Christ to be the atoning sacrifice for all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. For the Bible says, "In fact, the law [Old Testament law] requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Hebrews 9:22). So what does this have to do with discrimination? Jesus' blood only covers those who accept God's gift of grace through faith, and the only way to accept that gift is through Jesus. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). Therefore, heaven is a place were only those people who have accepted Christ will abide eternally. How can I join this community? The bible says in Romans,"That if you confes with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised [Jesus] from the dead you will be saved" (Romans 10:9).

Community is one of the things that Professor Hubbs mentioned in his lecture. I had often considered the term "community" only to mean a place in which a person lives, but then I realized that it wasn't a city or neighborhood that made up the community, it was the people. Just as God created the heavenly community as a place for all those who accept Him as Lord, so did the people of Greensboro, AL create a community of people that have a common way of life. Pofessor Hubbs said that when the men from Greensboro got back home from the war there was a stronger sense of community among all the residents. It is my prayer that when this life is over I will be able to see all of you in God's community.

Dr. Hubbs’ lecture discussed issues that I myself have been contemplating for last few months now. I did enjoy his lecture full of the pop-culture references of “Gone with the Wind,” stories of a town I had not heard about before, and discussion of the pre-determined notions of what makes this south, “The South.” However, more than this concept of loyalty to or within a community, the notion of the formation of community was the most interesting to me. I’ve never really felt that the neighborhoods I’ve lived in were communities, mostly because my family moved around a lot in my youth. Ever since my family moved to Birmingham about ten years ago, we have become a part of the local South Asian Muslim community, a community that has grown enormously, considering the size of Birmingham. This community got together often when I was a child, throwing large dinner parties in various dinner halls and conference rooms, or smaller dinners in people’s homes. However, as time went on, the community started growing and became disjointed. The dinner halls could no longer fit all the people and this somehow discouraged dinner parties in homes, also. I related this definition of community to the lecture because Dr. Hubbs implied that bad times did not destroy the community of Greensboro, it created and enhanced it. After the September 11th attacks, we heard constant news of naturalized citizens who were called in for questions without explanations, legal immigrants who were victims of ongoing hearings, and other like incidents from right here in our community. Suddenly, the community did not seem so vast anymore. People rushed together to help other who may need help, whether financially or emotionally. Previous differences were put aside for the time being. The kids in the community were now children of the community. Our community could be easily compared to “Gone with the Wind” because everyone seemed to know everyone else. However, as the community became obviously closer, it also became an exclusive one. People who did not share the community’s sense of value were not readily accepted. Almost immediately, many of the adults tried to establish a sense of loyalty to the community in their kids, a generation that was confused due to our upbringing in two cultures. At that point, the tight-knit community did not always seem like such a good idea.

Mainly because I grew up in two cultures and between two countries, I always have a hard time defining my loyalties. But I agree that one cannot be loyal to everything because by human nature we tend to surround ourselves with people who are like us and we feel comfortable around. In a sense, can this not be described as loyalty to one’s self? Does loyalty always have to be to a community? I think we often forget that we also have to be loyal to ourselves first and foremost and this obviously will lead to exclusiveness. And for this, I agree with Chris, it may not always be a bad thing.

So I've been thinking about the concept of loyalty for the past few days, and I can see the negative and positive aspects of it. True, loyalty in a community is important because a basis of trust is established. However, does loyalty mean that you completely exclude anyone new from joining a group?

At my old high school if someone came from a rival high school, we would ultimately accept them but still give them a hard time about where they came from. To me, that's ridiculous but if that's what is considered loyalty then so be it. I remember sitting at the football games and seeing the clear division between the home team and the rival and how the crowds interacted with each other. I also remember the fits people threw when someone would wear another school's baseball or football shirt. When it comes to college, does loyalty mean that I can't wear my University of Pittsburgh Panthers shirt just because I go to BSC? Loyalty comes in different shapes and sizes and I think it just depends on who you are and how you interpret it.

Ok back to community. My community was very "clique-ish". If you lived in "Indian Fields" everyone knew each other, went golfing together, and chances are the kids all drank and partied together. It was never exclusive to outsiders, but there was some sort of strange comradery that was hard to break into if you weren't and insider. I'm not really sure how I feel about that.

I have to admit, I have a group of friends that I'm extremely close to and I react differently to someone who wants to join the group. Someone once said to me that it was if there were 3 main girls, and everyone that came along were the supporting actors. I could see that. Maybe I'm just loyal to a certain number of people or certain people in particular.

Lastly, heaven. I can't answer that question because I don't believe in the concept of heaven. If others believethat heaven is going to be inclusive and exclusive, that's fine and dandy. I choose not to believe in it at all.

Loyalty personal is very valuable. Just because one is Loyal to lets just say the Atlanta Braves does not mean that you hate the New York Yankees. Although, in most cases I dislike the Yankees. This is only because they represent competition and a team that is going to pose a challenge for the Braves in getting the World Series title. My family is spilt down the middle on rooting for Yankees or the Braves. My dad, youngest brother, and I support the home team. While my stepmother and my other two brothers are Yankees fans. We might have a couple arguments in which team is better but it never carries on further then that. Loyalty to the Braves gives me a sense of place. Rooting for them and being a around people who are going out for the same team that you are makes you feel comfortable. I have always been taught that with loyalty comes respect. Just because one person believes in one thing does not mean the person sitting next to you does. It is key to respect ones beliefs and keep an open mind. Sure it’s okay to cry if the Braves don’t make it to the World Series this year, also respect the team who makes it to the Series because this year they earned it. In the end, for me loyalty shows honor but also respect does so it is vital to balance both of these when coming a across a fan of a different supports team or someone who believes in a different faith.

I attended Professor Guy Hubbs's discussion on the origins of southern distinctiveness. However, i was sitting in the very back of the theatre and could not hear much of his discussion. However, I did notice how everyone acted during the discussion. As i was seated in the back, I couldn't hear Professor Hubbs due to the lack of microphones, but I also could not hear him due to people talking during his lecture. I was astounded to how students treated some of these cultural events.

By listening to Dr. Tatter in lecture, I recieved an overall summary of what was mentioned during Professor Hubbs's lecture. Loyalty was a major point in Professor Hubb's lecture. I began to think of what I am loyal to. Some might say they that are loyal to a specific sports team, or religious group. I believe that I am loyal to myself first. I am also loyal to my favorite football team, Auburn Tigers. Loyalty is a very important characteristic. I believe that if someone is not loyal then that person can not be trusted.

The question about Greek organizations on campus is the first example I was able to think of about exclusiveness. I, myself, choose not to join a sorority and while I am happy with my decision, I have already noticed two major issues with my choice. The first is that three of my closest friends on my hall joined the same sorority and while I never feel like an outsider with them, I do feel like one when say we go to the cafateria and a group of their sorority sisters comes and sits with us, while most of them are nice some of them do not speak to me at all when they find out that I am independent. Although, this makes me uncomfortable, the worst part about it is that it makes my friends uncomfortable. They do not want to choose and I do not feel like they will have to, but sometimes it is going to be hard to balances both aspects of their social life. The second issue that has come up is socializing with other independents. While most of them are nice and have no problem with the Greek organizations there are a few of them who dislike all sorority women simply on principle. I saw this firsthand when I was playing on the independent team for intramural soccer and football. While most people play fairly and show sportsmanship, some of the girls on both teams play a little bit dirty or at least make their opinions known.

I understand that loyalty is an important concept in Greek life, but I think that some memeber have a skewed perception of that loyalty. I believe that I can be both loyal to my friends, and my own group, the independents. I never expect my friends to betray their sorority by telling me anything that is supposed to be kept a secret and I would never ask them to. What I do expect is that they are loyal to me and respect my decision to remain independent. I do not think this is a problem right now and I hope that it will not become one when my friends become active members of their sorority.


The other question I thought I could comment on was the one about "school spirit". While I do not know anything about the Alabama/Auburn rivalry, not being from Alabama, I can comment on the feelings between Texas and Texas A&M. In Texas, if you choose to be an Aggie or a Longhorn, you should be aware that that is a lifetime choice. There is an amazing amount of pride that goes along with that choice. Aggies and Longhorns generally hate each other and do everything to make each others' lives miserable. The best example of this are the Aggie jokes, which you can buy whole books filled with. One of the better known ones goes like this, "How many Aggies does it take to screw in a lightbulb?, Three. One to stand on a chair and hold the lightbulb and two to turn the chair." There is definatley and exclusiveness that goes with choosing to attend one college or the other and in Texas we learn early on to not claim ourselves as one or the other unless we are ready to make that decision for life.