pseudosoldier pseudosoldier

A Ray of Hope?

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A Ray of Hope?

Not of Peace, but with a Conscience?

from JoeUser Forums
I've hated reading some of greywar's articles for awhile now: the Religion of Peace series.
It's because he's damned persuasive. It's a dark, dark world, and it's easy to think bad things about a lot of people. I'm the resident Arabologist (and part-time Arabiaphile) of our little group, so I don't like to think bad things about my subject matter, as it were...

Link
This article, however, is just the type of article that I need to push back the darkness, and convince myself that there are kernels of good spread out in the world. People, not all people, but some people, they have consciences. *Whew*

Reading it a bit deeper, yeah, this is pretty refreshing. I hope grey sees this... but I think I may print it out and take it into work, just to make sure.
5,144 views 41 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
So - because they are fighting for an Islamic state - that doesn't give them the right to fight for independance? I am still not following you - if they want an Islamic state, good for them... I would argue it's independance before Islamic state every time - it's a mere coincidence in this situation.


Muggaz,

Would you kindly tell me what those children who were slaughtered had to do with the Chechnyan resistance? I will concede that grey may be overzealous at times in his statements about Muslims, but you are equally overzealous in your defense of their right to murder. What you are doing is NO LESS APPALLING than the Christians who defended the holocaust.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
Would you kindly tell me what those children who were slaughtered had to do with the Chechnyan resistance? I will concede that grey may be overzealous at times in his statements about Muslims, but you are equally overzealous in your defense of their right to murder. What you are doing is NO LESS APPALLING than the Christians who defended the holocaust.


I am not defending anyone right to Murder - please point me to where I have defended these horific actions.

I am defending Islam though - this horrific act was not commited in the name of Islam, it was commited in the name of Chechen independance. I dont think I need to distinguish the difference.

The Chechen seperatist's in this case are brutal murderers. This does not need to turn into another religious debate. It is a case of bad people doing bad things in the name of independance, not religion.

BAM!!!
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am defending Islam though - this horrific act was not commited in the name of Islam, it was commited in the name of Chechen independance. I dont think I need to distinguish the difference.


For the sake of this thread, I will assume that it was just mere coincidence that they all happened to be Muslim, according to all reports I have read.

My argument hinges not just on this thread, muggaz, but on your consistent insistence that the Muslims that have been active in terrorist activities are somehow justified. I have seen this not on one thread, but as a continued theme in your writing.

I think you've read enough of my stuff to know that I refuse to generalize and paint all Muslims with the same brush. But we NEED to speak out against the radical factions of this faith that perpetrate these acts (and, YES, I spoke out against Eric Rudolph, and YES I spoke out against Fred Phelps).

I know you're not a parent, muggaz, but let me say this: as a parent, the Russian school situation hit me far harder than 9/11. While I don't feel terrorism is ever justified, I think the school situation was below many of the most vile Muslim terrorists.

Indelibly etched in my mind is the image of a young girl, kissing her mother goodbye and climbing onto a bus to go to her first day of "kinny-garten". This fictional child has a gap in her front teeth, and is all smiles and waves as the bus pulls away. This fictional child is piled among the 350 dead in my mind. I think this way because I am a father. And I cannot begin to fathom how unimaginably intense the grief of these men and women who lost their children to such a horrendous event is at this time. As I stated on another, thread, my first reaction is one of hatred. After the hatred cools, however, the only reaction I can have is that of righteous anger and a fierce determination to work to create a world where we don't see these kinds of actions. And when I see some of the statements you have posted in defense of the ideology of these monsters (not just you; pro-terrorist sentiment appears to be the Aussie flavor of the day), it saddens me. Because you, Muggaz, are intelligent enough to know that the actions of these men is wrong. You can decry the actions without decrying the religion; I do it frequently. And you are eloquent enough to be able to formulate statements that don't constitute a defense for the people who DO perpetrate these acts.
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
know you're not a parent, muggaz, but let me say this: as a parent, the Russian school situation hit me far harder than 9/11. While I don't feel terrorism is ever justified, I think the school situation was below many of the most vile Muslim terrorists.


I almost cried while I was driving my car mate... It hit me, and it hit me hard.

And when I see some of the statements you have posted in defense of the ideology of these monsters (not just you; pro-terrorist sentiment appears to be the Aussie flavor of the day), it saddens me.


I am not following you mate - I am not pro-terrorist, and Australia certainly isn't pro-terrorist - In all sincerity, please point me to where I have condoned the terrorist actions? I am as shocked as the next guy when terrorist's pull this kind of crap, in fact, I am even more shocked, because I fear the inevitable retribution on the innocents that are un-fortunate enough to share locality with the terrorists.

I am obviously struggling to articulate myself here in my defense of Islam - which appears to be written of as evil already... I will not give up though... I know and respect too many moderates who are just as disgusted as you by these actions, and I will not have them lumped in the same basket as these terrorists just because they pray to the same God.

BAM!!!
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
Muggaz,

first of all, I'm not going to point you to the statements in question because, one, they've already been pointed out on other threads, and two, you and I both know that's a big can of worms we don't want to open. Suffice it to say I have seen it, and your statements, while they may not have been an accurate reflection of your thoughts, nonetheless took on a tone of justifying the actions of the terrorists.

The reason I made my comment about the aussie flavor of the day is I have seen similar defenses from 2 other aussie bloggers regularly and from a 3rd occasionally.

I have taken great strides in my blogs and in my responses to differentiate between the factions that perpetrate these acts and the Islamic faith as a whole. i have, however, repeatedly stated the need for more Muslims to speak out against these actions, and I will continue to do so. If they want to see these acts end as bad as we do, they need to do what they can to make these factions of Islam unpopular.

As for the school situation, no, it's not fair to pin it on the Muslims, but it IS fair to pin it on the FACTION of the Muslims that happened to also be Chechen rebels that were responsible here. The fact that they happened to be of particularly radical Muslim faith as well almost certainly influenced their objective. That would be pretty hard to deny.

Incidentally, muggaz, one of the reasons this irritates me so much is I have seen Christians blamed for the holocaust many times, and I have NOT ONCE seen you step forward and demand that Christians not be so blamed. You have a decided bias, and unfortunately, that bias comes across as sympathy for terrorists in many of your posts and responses. If I were the only one who saw this I'd let it go, but others have seen it as well...you would be well to consider the possibility that some of your posts could be worded differently.
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
All I can add to this is something I once overheard in Brooklyn...." As long as they are bashing Muslims, they are leaving the Jews alone."

that quote more or less shows the stupidity of bashing any group!
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
Incidentally, muggaz, one of the reasons this irritates me so much is I have seen Christians blamed for the holocaust many times, and I have NOT ONCE seen you step forward and demand that Christians not be so blamed.


Ok Gid - here is something you may not know - I am a baptized Christian, I have renounced my faith though... also, I refuse to blame Christianity for the Holocaust, because that is the same as blaming Islam for Sept 11 - I was not alive during the Holocaust, but I was alive during 9/11. Christianity does not need my defense - anyone who blames Christianity for the unfortunate event of the holocaust is a moron - and I will tell them as much.

There is a decided bias in my defense though, because more often than not, it is the Crusaders - the Christians, that are the ones pointing the fingers squarly at Islam, rather than the individuals who commit the acts - I blame Hitler and the Nazi's for the Holocaust, just like I blame bin Laden and Al-Quada for Sept 11 - not Christianity or Islam respectively.

I know you personally take great strides to distance the religion from these propostorous crimes - and don't think it doesn't go un-noticed - I haven't attacked your articles once, as they are well thought out, and they are attacking the incident, not the faith behind it - that is the common denominator in my rebuttals.

The statements I beleive you are referring to don't condone terrorism - it is merely a form of understanding - I can see why people would think as much though, and I digress. I also think it's a bit unfair of you to say terrorism is the Aussie flavor of the day because of 3 bloggers, out of a nation of 20,000,000 people.

I hope this little debate has given you some insite into my brain - I hate violence, I cannot condone it - I in no way support terrorism, but I dont support flaming Islam based on the actions of seperatists who happen to be muslim. I find it hard to beleive that these terrorist could justify an attack on a school based on their faith - I beleive they justified it on Russian brutality over hundreds of years - this in no way justifies it to us, but to them, you have to question the motives when individuals are sick enough to attack and kill school children - what drove them to this madness? I dont think it was Allah, just like i don't think it was God who drove Hitler to his madness.

BAM!!!
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #24 By: pseudosoldier - 9/7/2004 10:52:26 PM
Suspekted - Yet, he's not claiming that, merely using that title to draw in readers. Hyperbole for the sake of sensationalism, for the sake of newspaper sales. If you wish to say that his actual message is obfuscated by his overstated title, fine, I can concede that point easily. His underlying message is not necessarily as sweeping as the title makes it seem.


I guess that's all I was getting at. I think if someone in any major american publication were to make such an outward lie, (or at best, misleading) in their headline just to grab readers' attentions then they would be subject to great criticism. Though I have not done my homework on this one. Perhaps writers do this all the time without my noticing.

Everyone who has bombed an abortion clinic probably votes republican but I'm not about to write an article "All Abortion Clinic Terrorists are Republicans!"
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top

but I dont support flaming Islam based on the actions of seperatists who happen to be muslim.
I hate violence, I cannot condone it

 

   [scorn] How about flaming it based on the overwhelming preponderance of Muslim's commiting terrorist acts around the globe? Again lemme know when a Lutheran straps explosives to his body and bombs a bus full of school kids. Oh right the Palestinians are just "separatists" too they have nothing to do with rampant militant Islamism. Al-qaeda or The Mahdi Army too! heck according to Moore they are just like the "minutemen". [/scorn]

 

Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
Muggaz,

I don't fault you for defending Islam as a whole. But when you state an allegiance with the concept of declaring a fatwah (as a hypothetical, let's say you supported the idea of putting a fatwah on greywar), then you are allying yourself with the TERRORISTS, not with the innocent peace loving Muslims. As for your assertion that you will tell someone they are a moron for blaming the holocaust on Christians, that's bunk. I have seen you participate on several threads where that charge was levelled and NOT ONCE have you called out the person making the accusation. And yet, every time someone insinuates that a bombing perpetuated by someone who claimed to be a Muslim was indeed perpetuated by someone who claimed to be a Muslim, you call out the person stating that.

You don't see your bias here, muggaz, because it is exactly that--your bias. I have tiptoed around the statements I have made about Islam in here and have been VERY careful to phrase things in a way that made it clear I was speaking about the terrorists, not about Islam itself.

If you need an example of your hypocrisy--how much time have you spent supporting Tracy Givens' blog since you went in there and swore to protect him against big bad old me? I have left more replies than you have, and I haven't left that many!
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
But when you state an allegiance with the concept of declaring a fatwah


I stated no allegience with radicals declaring a fatwa - I merely acknowledged I could see why they would - why can't people get that into their heads? It's the fact I KNOW radicals are insane that i KNOW they would declare a fatwa if the saw the article in question? are you saying they wouldn't? are you saying I am a blithering idiot?

have seen you participate on several threads where that charge was levelled and NOT ONCE have you called out the person making the accusation. And yet, every time someone insinuates that a bombing perpetuated by someone who claimed to be a Muslim was indeed perpetuated by someone who claimed to be a Muslim, you call out the person stating that.


Ok - I will call people from now on - I admit it hasn't been at the forefront of any of my arguments... and I haven't really seen it as much as I perhaps should have... The sad truth here is there are plenty of Christians to defend such accusations, yet there are no Muslims, I dont know what it is, but I feel oblidged to defend the Muslims, otherwise violent rhetoric will go un-abaited towards them all day long... I cant explain why I haven't defended the Christians... but like I said before - they are the ones doing the attacking towards Islam a majority of the time - I certainly dont attack the Christians.

If you need an example of your hypocrisy--how much time have you spent supporting Tracy Givens' blog since you went in there and swore to protect him against big bad old me? I have left more replies than you have, and I haven't left that many!


Not once, because I realised it was stupid - he doesn't need protection, and as is pointed out by the jaded among us, I have no moral authority over anyone - if he needs protection, the admins can do it.

[scorn] How about flaming it based on the overwhelming preponderance of Muslim's commiting terrorist acts around the globe? Again lemme know when a Lutheran straps explosives to his body and bombs a bus full of school kids. Oh right the Palestinians are just "separatists" too they have nothing to do with rampant militant Islamism. Al-qaeda or The Mahdi Army too! heck according to Moore they are just like the "minutemen". [/scorn]


Like I said greywar - if they were Lutheran the fact wouldn't even be brought up. For every Muslim that is radical, there are probably 1000 that aren't... it's those 1000 that I waste my time arguing for... not the imbecile who blows up stuff.

As a side note, I would like to apologise for the Timothy McVeigh remark on the other thread - bad assumption.

BAM!!!
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
I stated no allegience with radicals declaring a fatwa - I merely acknowledged I could see why they would


no, you said that if you were Muslim, you would declare an edict on greywar's head. This has been repeatedly QUOTED, yet you twist your own words.

Not once, because I realised it was stupid


As did I, long before you, hence the subject of my post. But you didn't admit that your premature jumping off the handle at the post was misinformed.

Incidentally, I have compiled some pretty compelling stats on Islam and terror on my blog, mugz. I'd like you to take a look and see what you think of my analysis.
Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
As did I, long before you, hence the subject of my post. But you didn't admit that your premature jumping off the handle at the post was misinformed.


*sit in corner with dunce hat on*

no, you said that if you were Muslim, you would declare an edict on greywar's head. This has been repeatedly QUOTED, yet you twist your own words.


I am not a Muslim - is that fact escaping everyone?

Incidentally, I have compiled some pretty compelling stats on Islam and terror on my blog, mugz. I'd like you to take a look and see what you think of my analysis.


Done, done and done

BAM!!!
Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top

As a side note, I would like to apologise for the Timothy McVeigh remark on the other thread - bad assumption.

too fucking late and too fucking little. Mark it, I will never even ackowledge another post or article your post here. Ever. Support a Fatwa against me firstthen tell me i am a Tim McVeigh supporter when I actively fight the War on Terror everyday? Fuck you and everyone like you.

Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top
Way to send a thunderstorm to block out that ray of hope greywar.
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
too fucking late and too fucking little. Mark it, I will never even ackowledge another post or article your post here. Ever. Support a Fatwa against me firstthen tell me i am a Tim McVeigh supporter when I actively fight the War on Terror everyday? Fuck you and everyone like you.


Acknowledge this mate... hostility gets you no where...

Carry on.

BAM!!!