, soccer as cultural heritage.

Sounds more like to me that people got caught making bold statements about RACIAL diversity, and now they are trying to twist it to mean CULTURAL diversity.

Face it, the US is a nation of 290 million people, with people of every culture on earth. I live in Kentucky, probably one of the most whitebread states there is, and we have amazing amounts of cultural diversity. I've known people from every major ethnic group, and many, many from smaller ones. Granted this isn't something you'd know unless you had actually been here, and most overly judgemental freaks around here have no point of reference.

What makes you think that America, the melting pot of the world where for 200 years people flocked from every heritage imaginable, would have less diversity than nations with 20 million people and much, much less history in terms of mass migration.

Perhaps we don't ghettoize our minorities as much as you like? We don't have "Arab town" or "Irish town" here, but then that isn't really the point here, is it? I find it utterly offensive when people say that a nation that has tirelessly accepted immigrents for hundreds of years is somehow suddenly become some sort of Aryan, homogenous, culture crushing monster.

People have become so confident in their America bashing in the last few weeks that they don't even bother to think before they spew their filth.

Sounds more like to me that people got caught making bold statements about RACIAL diversity, and now they are trying to twist it to mean CULTURAL diversity.

Sounds to me like Brad got caught arguing that Canada is "one of the LEAST multicultural nations". Notice how he switched the topic to "Racial Diversity" from "Multiculturalsim" to suit his argument. Typical. I don't think Americans know the definition of multiculturalism. It's more than counting brown faces.

As usual, Bake gets it *exactly* backwards and Brad slithers the argument into his own snakehole (thank you George Bush for the rich imagery) to suit his needs.

I think there's a dynamic to race relations in the US that people who do not live here don't get.

In the US, there tend to be "pockets" where a certain culture dominates. A prime example of this would be Wisconsin and Minnesota, where a predominantly Scandinavian and German culture (and growing Hmong population) tends to dominate the scene. These pockets often comingle in the larger cities, which tend to be more racially diverse.

The city I lived in before I came here was 93% caucasian. I now live in a city that is about 60% caucasian, 35% hispanic. I grew up in a city that was about 60% caucasian, 35% african-american (the last two examples are not exact stats, but they are close). The fact is, all of these communities were statistical anomalies from the general US population. So, the US could well be both the most and least diverse country there is, depending on where you are from.

I am assuming from my limited knowledge of Canada and Australia, that a similar assertion could be made. That notwithstanding, this thread has degenerated far past the point of objectivity and reason.

Muggaz: You make my point for me.  People who relatively homogenous countries start magnifying the piddly cultural differences in their groups.  It's like someone from Great Britain talking about the great diversity between the Irish, Welsh, English, and Scots. Over in the United States, a land of actual significant diversity, such differences are not significant enough for notice.

When you're left talking about how different groups of white people are different, you've lost the battle.  We've got the same diveristy in caucasians as Australia does (probably much more so actually) but we also have millions of people of different racial groups as well. Heck, we have almost as many Asians here as there are people living in Australia.

Bakerstreet: What I am finding more and more amazing is that peopel who like to trash the United States from other countries are largely totally ignorant of their own countries.  I mean, look at David Hubbins up there.  When presented with links from Canadian government sites he closes his eyes and starts shrieking "lies lies lies!"  It's like they're so busy attacking the US that they've never really taken a close look at their own country.

I mean, holy cow, I mentioned muggaz's claim to a friend of mine about Australia being the most diverse country on earth and they couldn't believe it.  Talk about blind nationalism. Australia is usually the example of a racially homogenous society not the other way around. Yea, Australia, cultural melting pot sort of like Sweden and Japan are. And make no mistake, I bet if you find someone from Japan or Sweden they too will get into the intricate differences of different groups there.

Americans are mutts to the nth degree that we don't usaully know what the hell we're made of.  My blond wife, I recently found out, is something like 10% native American along with a half dozen other nationalities.  I myself am another half dozen different nationalities as well.  Heck, the typical African American in the United States is over 20% Caucasian.  Muggaz talks about how different races should mix it up, we've been doing that here in the US for centuries.

Sounds to me like Brad got caught arguing that Canada is "one of the LEAST multicultural nations". Notice how he switched the topic to "Racial Diversity" from "Multiculturalsim" to suit his argument. Typical. I don't think Americans know the definition of multiculturalism. It's more than counting brown faces. As usual, Bake gets it *exactly* backwards and Brad slithers the argument into his own snakehole (thank you George Bush for the rich imagery) to suit his needs.

No David, the reason I moved towards racial diversity is because cultural diversity is too subjective. Racial diversity is a lot easier to prove.  A Britain will argue to death the rich cultural diversity between the Welsh and the Scots.  How does one prove that they are more diverse than say a Hindi Indian and a Pinjabi Indian? But with races, which cultural differences come along for for the ride, there's no wiggle room.

But then again, I am not the one who made the ridiculous claim that Canada is "the most diverse nation in the world" (or Australia for that matter).

BTW, David, you may want to re-read what I wrote:

"Canada: Canada has diversity if you count various types of white people as diversity. http://www.statcan.ca/english/census96/feb17/eo1can.htm"

 

Muggaz: You make my point for me. People who relatively homogenous countries start magnifying the piddly cultural differences in their groups. It's like someone from Great Britain talking about the great diversity between the Irish, Welsh, English, and Scots. Over in the United States, a land of actual significant diversity, such differences are not significant enough for notice.

I challenge you to call an Austrian a German, or a Frechman an Italian... You obviously beleive there is no dif. in the cultures... ok, I have established that...

What makes you think that America, the melting pot of the world where for 200 years people flocked from every heritage imaginable, would have less diversity than nations with 20 million people and much, much less history in terms of mass migration.

Nothing makes me think that... I acknowledge America's multiculturalism.

Brad.... I invite you to Melbourne... you can come and stay with me... we would have a blast... I garauntee you will eat your words. Australia has the most urbanised population in the world, It would only take an hour of walking through Melbourne to show you what I mean. I still can't beleive you are trying to pull this crap on me when I live here... it isn't blind nationalism... it's what I see every day.

BAM!!!

Muggaz: How many places you have visited? I've traveled considerably and MOST large cities have very diverse cultural groups. Melbourne has over 3 million people in it. Of course IT is diverse. Melbourne is a city. Like Toronto or Seatle or New York or Paris that is very metropolitan with lots of different groups. That doesn't mean that your entire country is diverse.

If I go to a school of 1000 people and 99% of it is white and I go to one of the classes (of 30 people) and 10 of them are not white, that doesn't prove that my shcool is culturally diverse. Especially if the school down the street is only around 60% white (where the "whites" are just as "diverse" as the whites anywhere else) and 40% are from other groups.

Do you really think we don't have Germans and Frenchmen or Italians here? Do you really think that more Germans are clamouring to get down to Australia than the United States? Because the US is so ethnically diverse, we simply don't consider the differences between Frenchmen and Italians and Germans to reach a threshold worth considering them anything other than simply other white guys. 

Only in a homogenous society like Australia (or Canada) does one have the luxury of getting into the minutia of Germans vs. Italians vs. French.  In the US, we have bigger differences to consider than what language and history they have. Meanwhile, over in the former Yugoslavia, various white guys are killing each other over slight ethnic differences, a concept that is foreign here.

David: What links to data did you provide? None.

This is another lie. I provided two links to relevant, accurate information supporting my argument. Information = data, you know that. So to say I provided no links to support my hypothesis is another lie. Arguing that Canada is one of the least multicultural nations is a losing proposition The false data you provided has been widely discredited here in Canada because of the fact that eight million Canadians defined themselves in the census as 'Canadian'. The statistical implications of such a badly worded question are obvious. Spewing out discredited data without a hint of analysis or knowledge of the matter at hand doesn't support an argument.

Because the US is so ethnically diverse, we simply don't consider the differences between Frenchmen and Italians and Germans to reach a threshold worth considering them anything other than simply other white guys.

Ah, so your cultural ignorance isn't just perceived, it is a fact! Thanks for clearing that one up!

You claim I go out of my way to be ignorant.... Is this your hobby to?

BAM!!!

I have had more meaningful conversations with AI...

You guys are making what point? That the US isn't culturally diverse? That a nation with 290 million people from all over the world isn't diverse because we identify ourselves as Americans when asked? That because our ethic groups aren't ghettoized that for some reason they are no longer ethnic groups? Is our national identity threatening to you? So much so that you have to turn it into anti-ethnic, politically correct babbling?

Your point seems to be that all these ethnic groups are here, but for some reason the tens of millions here don't count because most Canadians refuse to call themselves Canadian? Australia is more urbanized, so for some reason it is more ethnically diverse than a nation with 10 times the population and far more ethnic groups represented?

This boggles the mind. What are you trying to argue here, because this is the most incoherant mess I have ever seen from the peanut gallery.

Ok - I think i can help you out Baker...

My definition of Multi-Culturalism is obviously different from folks in the USA... I dont lump all whites in one basket... wheras Americans do. I didn't realise this was the case, so all my argunments were for nothing... By stating our urbanisation,. I was just trying to illustrate that you can find a plethora of different cultures in a small area... I meant nothing else by it...

And not once have i stated that the US isn't culturally diverse... dont put words into my mouth.

If Brad thinks Australia, or America for that matter isn't culturally diverse because the people are 'white' and from 'europe' well... I dont know what to say about that...

AI is pretty good these days baker... it wouldn't surprise me

BAM!!!

David: Please let me know what post you provided a link. I cannot see any links here to back up any of your assertions.  And enough with the "liar" namecalling. If you can't behave like an adult I'll remove you from the grown up area.

Muggaz: There is no reason to think that the white people in the US are any less culturally diverse than the white people in Australia.  Therefore, once we make that assumption, we can then move to the racial differences.

I don't think Australia is particularly culturally diverse.  YOU said that Australia was THE MOST culturally diverse country in the entire world, a claim that I find absurd.

The false data you provided has been widely discredited here in Canada because of the fact that eight million Canadians defined themselves in the census as 'Canadian'.

Does anyone else find David's above statement bizarre?  So 8 million Canadians define themselves as Canadian.  And this discredits what? You claimed that Australia wasn't the most diverse nation on the planet because Canada was.  I've provided evidence that certainly puts that claim in doubt.  I don't see how the "fact" that 8 million Canadians consider themselves Canadian lends itself to "proving" that Canada is the most diverse country on earth.

You see, here's the thing - you made the wild claim about Canada's diversity.  That puts the onus on you to back it up.  I provided evidence that puts makes that a pretty iffy statement IMO.  You are certainly free to disagree but you've provided zilch in the way of evidence to back up your wild claim.   You'll note that I have never claimed that the US is the most diverse country on earth because I don't think I could put together the data to prove that.  But you claimed that for Canada.  So get to it. Make your case.

BTW, I have provided LOTS of links to data.  Just because you don't like the link I gave to the canadian government website for displaying the last census data doesn't "descredit" anything.

YOU said that Australia was THE MOST culturally diverse country in the entire world, a claim that I find absurd.

Yeah, I think you guys are ignoring the fact that this is a REBUTTAL of the concept that Canada and Australia are somehow more diverse than the US..

I mean, you don't think we have the same sub-catagories of caucasian here? You don't think we have all the same flavors of "white" that Australia and Canada has?

Mkay, here's the rub, then. Why don't we have all these ethnicities you claim to have. Once again, we have a population of 290 million people, 10 times that of the nations in question, and we have been a hub for migration for 300+ years.

You know what I am beginning to think? I think YOU GUYS are lumping all the white people in the US together. I can see no other way you can claim all these sub-categories and pretend that they don't exist here. Either that, or it is the insipid idea that because we almost universally call ourselves American that offends you, as it seems to be a problem for Dave... Otherwise why would the fact that Canadians don't consider themselves Canadians matter?

Does American citizenship somehow cleanse you of ethnic heritiage? In reality, or just in your perception of Americans? Guess where my money is...

Man, reading through this is starting to give me a headache.  Maybe it's my engineering background but I am having a real hard time understanding why David and Muggaz aren't recogonizing a basic mathematical sets argument.

If Set W is considered equally culturally diverse in a given country.

And you also have sets A, B, H which we can assume are equally culturally diverse in their own right.

And if you then say that each letter value is significantly more different culturally from other letter values than sub-portions of a letter you therefore can reasonably show that Country X is more diverse if, as percentage, Sets W, A, B, and H are more equalized.

If Country X and Country Y are predominanetly filled with Value W AND Country X's A > Country Y's A and the same all down the line therefore one can conclude that Country X is more likely to be diverse than country Y.

Maybe math isn't taught in Canada and Australia. I don't know. Given David's demonstrated math abilities (100B/300M != 3000) and other number problems, it certainly seems possible that Math isn't a big deal in Canada.

But unless Muggaz is trying to argue that white people in Australia are somehow, magically, more diverse than white people in other countries then he has no basis to make the assertion that Australia is more diverse than the US (or Canada or plenty of other countries).

As for David, it's not quite clear WHAT his point is.  His point seems to be to make unfounded assertions and then reject any data that disagrees with his assertion without him having backed up his claim.

The crux of Daves last point seems to be:

"Arguing that Canada is one of the least multicultural nations is a losing proposition The false data you provided has been widely discredited here in Canada because of the fact that eight million Canadians defined themselves in the census as 'Canadian'. "

It seems he is confusing nationality with ethnicity, or with Muggaz believes that white people in America are ethnically "white", and white people everywhere else are ethnically diverse. Are there biological reasons for that, do you think? Maybe the water people bathe in here somehow washes all the previous ethnicity out of them.

Gideon used Minnesota ad an example as mostly Scandinavian and German. I live in Minnesota and although this may be true for some of the state, it is not for all. The neighborhood we live in, I am the only blonde hair, blue eyed person i have ever seen. My Husband is Japanese, our neighbors, Sudanese, black, Hmong, Hispanic, Arab, African, Vietnamese, Korean, Greek, and Lebonese to name a FEW. I bet it would take me less than 20 minutes to find someone from 30 different cultures in a 2 mile radius. So even in Minnesota... we have racial diversity.

America is becoming... if not already the most diverse country in the world. Our vast size, immigrant population, and foundations of America are embracing that diversity. Interacial marriages and relationships are becoming so common that many caucasians are not only their origanal European ancestry, but have other cultures and races flowing through their veins.

I thought Brad's article was well researched and written, although the responses are becoming somewhat "playground"......... "My country is more diverse than your country".... Sounds a bit like "My dad can beat up your dad".... When you don't have facts to back it up.

Does anyone else find David's above statement bizarre? So 8 million Canadians define themselves as Canadian. And this discredits what? You claimed that Australia wasn't the most diverse nation on the planet because Canada was. I've provided evidence that certainly puts that claim in doubt. I don't see how the "fact" that 8 million Canadians consider themselves Canadian lends itself to "proving" that Canada is the most diverse country on earth.

It discredits the data because "Canadian" is such a vague category it can contain virtually any nationality or race. That's really really obvious and I shouldn't have to explain it to you. You stated "Getting into a debate about what is the most multi-cultural country in the world is futile because the definition can be played with until it becomes meaningless". You are the one who bent the orignal debate from multiculturalism to racial diversity to suit your weak argument, not me. You are the one who is pursuing the "Most (whatever) country" debate, not me. I made a comment that Canada is the most Multicultural country and provided a reasonable amount of data (54% of Torontonians weren't born here, Minister of Multiculturalism, Multiculturalism Act, etc.) to support this. A reasonable person would surmise that a country that has multiculuralism as official policy is more multicultural than one without. I think you assume counting brown faces is multiculturalism:

mul·ti·cul·tur·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mlt-klchr-l, -t-)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or including several cultures.
2. Of or relating to a social or educational theory that encourages interest in many cultures within a society rather than in only a mainstream culture.

I don't see the word 'racial' there, do you?

I don't see how the "fact" that 8 million Canadians consider themselves Canadian lends itself to "proving" that Canada is the most diverse country on earth.

I never said it did. Not even close. You have a very bad habit of putting words in peoples' mouths. I used to think it was bad logic or reading comprehension but I'm beginning to see a pattern here suggesting you are being less than truthful in order to advance your argument. I don't believe you are dumb enough to really believe what you are typing here.

You see, here's the thing - you made the wild claim about Canada's diversity. That puts the onus on you to back it up. I provided evidence that puts makes that a pretty iffy statement IMO. You are certainly free to disagree but you've provided zilch in the way of evidence to back up your wild claim. You'll note that I have never claimed that the US is the most diverse country on earth because I don't think I could put together the data to prove that. But you claimed that for Canada. So get to it. Make your case.

I don't make wild claims, please stop using such inflammatory rhetoric. I did back it up, see above. I suppose if I claim the sun rises in the east you'll want pictures from Hubble to back it up too? There is no onus here, Brad. You say I've provided zilch in evidence, I already discredited this lie of yours, see above.

BTW, I have provided LOTS of links to data. Just because you don't like the link I gave to the canadian government website for displaying the last census data doesn't "descredit" anything.

I never said you didn't provide data. Why are you arguing with yet another strawman? The data you presented is bad for reasons stated above that even a child could understand.

Dave: "Arguing that Canada is one of the least multicultural nations is a losing proposition The false data you provided has been widely discredited here in Canada because of the fact that eight million Canadians defined themselves in the census as 'Canadian'. ""

Me: "I don't see how the "fact" that 8 million Canadians consider themselves Canadian lends itself to "proving" that Canada is the most diverse country on earth."

Dave: "I never said it did. Not even close. You have a very bad habit of putting words in peoples' mouths. "

People who simply call themselves Canadian should be assumed to be ethnically diverse, but people who are simply Americans are just white? You refuse to say why white people in America are white, and white people everywhere else are ethnically diverse...

I mean, how utterly insipid...

Canadians and Americans are culturally the same people, Western Europeans that migrated here in the 17th and 18th century, with the added fact that the US has had exponentially more immigration from around the world in the subsequent 200 years. You have a population of something like 30 million, ours is 290 million. Do we just screw more than you? No, people flood into America from all over the world.

In the face of that, though, you say Canada is more diverse. If white people move here they are Americans, if they move to Canada they somehow retain their previous ethnicity. How's that for bias...

I'm not worrying about your reading comprehension, I'm worrying about your sanity at this point.

In the face of that, though, you say Canada is more diverse.

"There were 28.4 million foreign-born US residents in March 2000, making immigrants 10 percent of US residents." Link

"New data from the 2001 Census show that the proportion of Canada’s population who were born outside the country has reached its highest level in 70 years.
As of May 15, 2001, 5.4 million people, or 18.4% of the total population, were born outside the country." Link

Eighteen is a bigger number than ten, almost twice as big. If you have eighteen apples and George Bush taxes you ten apples to pay for a "War" on "Terror", you still have eight apples left.

Canadians and Americans are culturally the same people

I think you are misunderstanding cultural to mean racial or ethnic. I hope you do, because Canadians and Americans are not culturally the same, thats' pretty obvious. Culture is an entirely different matter.

I'm not worrying about your reading comprehension, I'm worrying about your sanity at this point...

Character assasination only makes you look bad and is a sign you've lost the argument.

But unless Muggaz is trying to argue that white people in Australia are somehow, magically, more diverse than white people in other countries then he has no basis to make the assertion that Australia is more diverse than the US

Ok - I retract my statement that Australia is the most multi-cultural country in the world... egg face.. etc... sorry for the confusion...

However, my main gripe here is that Americans seem to ignore the fact that just because someone is 'White' they all have the same culture... Like i said, try calling a Frenchman an Italian, and see what his reaction is... I am arguing that all white people are from diverse cultures...

We aren't arguing the same thing here, hence the discombobulation of this thread... Now we are all on the same playing field, thanks to Brad clearly stating that all white folks are considered to have the same culture... hence his perceived lack of cultural diversity in Australia...

Brad doesn't *think* Australia is culturally diverse... I live here though, and I can tell you it is... I guess you can argue for the sake of arguing, but like i said, I invite either of you here, and try going a full day without seeing the glories of multi-culturalism in Australia...

BAM!!!

I meant their cultural ORIGINS dave, context, context. You don't bother to read my posts, but still...

"There were 28.4 million foreign-born US residents in March 2000, making immigrants 10 percent of US residents." Link "New data from the 2001 Census show that the proportion of Canada’s population who were born outside the country has reached its highest level in 70 years. As of May 15, 2001, 5.4 million people, or 18.4% of the total population, were born outside the country." Link Eighteen is a bigger number than ten, almost twice as big. If you have eighteen apples and George Bush taxes you ten apples to pay for a "War" on "Terror", you still have eight apples left. "

...

Do you even hear yourself? You are comparing two different years, and only one year out of 200. You think Canada had more immigration throughout US history than the US? Then how in the hell do you have 10% of our population now?

In addition, you are, again, pretending that the naturalized population of the US isn't ethnic. The immigrants you are listing are coming from everywhere your naturalized population came from. You aren't offering any proof that those coming in are any more ethnically diverse than the ones that already live there., and you are ASSuming that once people are naturilzed in America that they are no longer diverse.

We've had more immigration than Canada, we have a population almost ten times that of Canada, and we have the same ethnic/cultural origins as Canada. Please, please tell me how you guys ended up being more diverse than us.


Like I said, I've had better arguements with AI...

I guess it is possible that Canada has had more immigration historically, but 90% of them move away or hang themselves shortly after. If this conversation is any indication it is no wonder...

You are comparing two different years, and only one year out of 200.

Reading comprehension. You are confusing 'annual immigration rate' with 'percentage of foreign born citizens'. It's not like the number of foreign born citizens is going to change drastically from year to year, so argument #1 fails. I only compare one year out of 200 because we are dealing with a sum figure, not an annual thingie, which is why your second argument fails.

You think Canada had more immigration throughout US history than the US?

I never came close to saying this. These are not my words.

Then how in the hell do you have 10% of our population now?

You are demanding an answer to a question only you are asking.

In addition, you are, again, pretending that the naturalized population of the US isn't ethnic.

These must be someone else's words as I have never pretended that the naturalized population of the US isn't ethnic.

You aren't offering any proof that those coming in are any more ethnically diverse than the ones that already live there

So now I have to prove that our immigrants are ethnic? Fine. "Of the 1.8 million immigrants who arrived between 1991 and 2001, 58% came from Asia, including the Middle East; 20% from Europe; 11% from the Caribbean, Central and South America; 8% from Africa; and 3% from the United States." Link Ethnic enough for you?

and you are ASSuming that once people are naturilzed in America that they are no longer diverse

I think someone else is arguing this, not me. So this would be another false statement.

Please, please tell me how you guys ended up being more diverse than us.

The world's highest immigration rate, for starters.

One more thing I found out while researching this: "Only in Australia is the proportion of population born outside the country higher than it is in Canada. According to Australia’s 2001 Census, 22% of its population was foreign-born, compared with 18% for Canada." Maybe Muggaz was right....