Racial diversity is all in the eye of the beholder

Reposted from original thread:

Brad: Similarly, so is Canada. To an Austrlalian or Canadian, multiculturial means pointing out one large city where there are various small populations from around the world.

The magnitude of the incorrectness of this statement is hard to elucidate. You could be the only person on the entire planet who would even try to argue Canada is one of the least multicultural countries in the world. Fifty four percent of Torontonians weren't born in Canada, for starters. Is that your definition of homogenous? And Toronto isn't unique in this regard, as your post would suggest. Ever been to Vancouver, or Hongcouver as it's known? How about Africville in Nova Scotia? I just got back from a trip to Montreal and of course it's very multicultural. I don't live in a big city but our community is very, very multicultural. Multiculturalism is official government policy here, as well as everyday reality, coast to coast, not just in the big cities. Canada has the highest immigration rate in the world and Canadians are hardcore to the bone about being multicultural.

Gah, America bashing is so utterly hilarious. nations with the populations of one American city, snipping away as if they had already handled the problems of a nation of 290 million people.

Might be about time for people to grow up and mind their own business. It isn't our fault that their nations are so mind-numbingly boring that they have to spend hours watching news about America and trying to exert some impotent opinion on people they know nothing about.

The whole Australia thing is painfully insipid. I went though all this crap years ago arguing with Australians at Wincustomize and elsewhere, and if I have learned anything it is they probably know more about America, and less about their own nation than anyone else in the world.

Must be great for politicians around the world. They probably face half the scrutiny with their busy-body constituents spending all their time overseeing American politics on satellite news channels.

It isn't our fault that their nations are so mind-numbingly boring that they have to spend hours watching news about America

Yeah, you guys are doing a bang up job of perpetuating the Ugly American sterotype. You guys look really classy and intellectual with statements like this. Keep up the good work.

David, I've been to Toronto and Vancouver and like many many other large cities in the world there is a great deal of diversity there.

But Toronto and Vancouver are NOT Canada. They are just two cities in Canada.  Visit San Francisco, Seatle, New York or Miami and voila, you have the same kinds of things. So what?  Canadian society is pretty homogenous overall IMO. 

Political CORRECTNESS is policy in Canada.  Not multiculturalism.  And as for highest immigration rate in the world, what does that really mean when your population is less than a single US state?  That's akin to all those people who try to throw in Luxemburgh into various per capita tables.

To some Canadians, diversity (apparently) is pointing out one of the handful of large cities in Canada and saying "Hey look! There's some non white people there! Look! Sure, they only make up a miniscule percentage of the population but they're there!"  It's pretty easy for a white Canadian to talk about tolerance.  Any racial group that is overwhelmingly dominant tends to be reasonably tolerant of minorities as long as they don't feel threatened.  It's like the guy who says "Ha! I'm not racist, In fact, I once talked to the black kid that went to our school!"

Just a reminder, the census data I provided to back up my point on diversity in Canada was form Canada: http://www.statcan.ca/english/census96/feb17/eo1can.htm

As for confusing racial and clutural diversity, the two are largely related.  From an anthropology perspective, cultures derive from population concentrations in specific geographic locations over long periods of time. Similarly, visual differences between groups of people go hand in hand. I am focusing on racial diversity because it raises the threshold of cultural diversity to a more practical point. Otherwise, you'll have some German or Frenchman wanting to talk about how different they are from one another. And that's fine except that if you want to criticize the US for being racist, then you need and apples and apples comparison which means you're really talking about racial diversity.

, I love it. Ever have a neighbor that hangs over the fence and tells you how to mow your yard? You wanna talk about obnoxious? To be blunt, why not mind your own fucking business? The US is told constantly to do so when we start talking about your politics.

Take a long look at how America is being kicked around here. I see a lot of ugly, ugly people, and few of them are Americans.

Frankly, Dave, you're pretty ugly yourself.

Yeah, you guys are doing a bang up job of perpetuating the Ugly American sterotype. You guys look really classy and intellectual with statements like this. Keep up the good work.

Just as you are perpetuating the naive unworldly Canadian with your smug comments about Canada being the most diverse nation in the world and then trying to use the populations of a couple cities are your "proof" in the face of having Canada's census data provided.

Gah, I mean what percentage of posts at JU are Americans complaining about Canadian politics as opposed to the opposite? It's as bad or worse with European visitors.

They have nations with double digit unemployment, hemorraging properity and taxing themselves into oblivion. There are first-world nations forcing Islamic women to take off their scarves, mandated by their religion to be worn, or else they are denied the right of education or public service. Then they turn around and say America isn't free? Ugly Europeans outnumber ugly Americans by far these days. Most of us don't give a damn about their business.

These petty nations have WORSE economies, LESS freedom, but because they are basically impotent and can't effect change on an international level they have to villify anyone that does. That's ugly, akin to penis envy, imho.

Sorry to go off topic, but damn these people are obtuse and hypocritical.

Draginol, I went to the Stats Can page you linked to. One question: what race are the eight million people who identified themselves as "Canadian"? There has been much discussion here in Canada about the census; until you can tell me what 'race' the eight million 'Canadians' are, neither of us has much use for these figures.

Political CORRECTNESS is policy in Canada. Not multiculturalism

This is 100% false. You really don't know what you are talking about. Here is a link to the Multiculturalism Act: Link

Here is a link to "IMPLEMENTATION OF THE MULTICULTURALISM POLICY OF CANADA" Sample clause: 4. The Minister, in consultation with other ministers of the Crown, shall encourage and promote a coordinated approach to the implementation of the multiculturalism policy of Canada and may provide advice and assistance in the development and implementation of programs and practices in support of the policy. Link

The federal and provincial governments have multiculturalism departments. We have Minister of Multiculuralism and Citizenship. How much more proof do you need?

But Toronto and Vancouver are NOT Canada. They are just two cities in Canada. Visit San Francisco, Seatle, New York or Miami and voila, you have the same kinds of things. So what? Canadian society is pretty homogenous overall IMO.

Vancouver and Toronto metro areas comprise around 25-30% of Canada's population. 80% of Canadians live in cities. So excluding cities, especially Toronto and Vancouver, from the sample distorts the statistics, is usnnecessary, and is only self-serving for your argument.

And as for highest immigration rate in the world, what does that really mean when your population is less than a single US state

Spurrious and irrelevant. 32 million people and a trillion dollar GDP is not a small country. The Luxembourg comparison fails on it's face.

To some Canadians, diversity (apparently) is pointing out one of the handful of large cities in Canada and saying "Hey look! There's some non white people there! Look! Sure, they only make up a miniscule percentage of the population but they're there!"

I have a hard time believing you've been to Van or T.O. Anyone who's been there, or Montreal or Ottawa or any of the 10 biggest metros in Canada, would know that 'miniscule' is a false representation of the minorities here.

I can add a bunch of links proving how wrong you are on this, but you'd probably tell me I was spamming. Or thread hijacking. Or being anti-American. Or something. That's the way you guys operate around here when your posts are exposed as unadjacent to the truth.

Indeed, in Canada, you could have gotten arrested for some of the comments in that Reagan/AIDS discussion as it is now illegal to say anything that might hurt the feelings of various protected groups.

But like David says, multiculturalism is "official government policy".  We Americans would call that "official police state". What's ironic is that the people who freak out about the Patriot act have no idea how restrictive speech can be in other countries.  Heck, the government of France sued Amazon to try to get rid of any books that talked about Nazism. Such laws are common in Europe (and increasingly in Canada) but they'll happily talk about how Bush and the "neocons" (whatever that is) are out to create a police state.

Draginol, I went to the Stats Can page you linked to. One question: what race are the eight million people who identified themselves as "Canadian"? There has been much discussion here in Canada about the census; until you can tell me what 'race' the eight million 'Canadians' are, neither of us has much use for these figures.

Um, YOU are the one claiming that Canada is the most multicultural country in the entire world. The onus is on you to prove it.

I've provided evidence that backs my assertion. You're not satisfied with it. Fine. Provide your own evidence. Given your poor record on research (like your grossly incorrect assertion that the US and Canadian governments spend similar %'s of their GDP) you'll have to forgive me if I don't simply take your word for it.

So you are combating statistics with perception. Of course Draginol can post over and over the true census information for Canada, but since he isn't there he really can't KNOW how ethnically diverse it is. Nice. Same to you. You can't possibly know how ethnically diverse the US is, with minority populations greater than many first-world countries. Doesn't matter, though, the point is bashing the US, not the responsibility of your claims. That's the way you guys operate around here.

I have a hard time believing you've been to Van or T.O. Anyone who's been there, or Montreal or Ottawa or any of the 10 biggest metros in Canada, would know that 'miniscule' is a false representation of the minorities here.

I guess to someone who thinks that a population of 30 million people makes Canada a large country that any minorities would seem like a big deal.

Like I said elsewhere, the United States has more African Americans and Hispanics as there are Canadians. And its Arab and Asian populations are vastly larger than their Canadian equivalents as well.

Look David, you're the one who makes these bald claims and does nothing whatsoever to back it up. It's not our fault that you choose to make emotional arguments with no evidence.  I mean hell, arne't you the one who made that article that tried to demonstrate high taxes being caused by evidence that Halliburton wasted some money? You're not exactly Mr. Wonder logic here.

No one is asking you to "spam links". You could, however, provide A LINK when the information is central to your point.

Let me give you a few examples:

1) If you make an argument saying how Canada and the US governments spend roughly the same % of GDP and this is a cornerstone of your argument, then you might want to include a link. Or, if not that, you could at least have looked it up yourself. Because once someone else looks it up and discovers you're full of crap, people are going to be skeptical of your other undocumented claims.

2) Similarly, if you are going to say that Canada is THE MOST multicultural nation in the entire world, the onus on you is to prove that.  You'll note that I have not claimed the US is the most multicultural country in the world. That is because I believe it would be very difficult to prove that.  But YOU did make the claim for Canada and yet your pathetic evidence is that one should visit Toronto.  I'm sorry but that sounds so provincial. Like some yokel who's amazed at the sights and sounds of a major city.  I've traveled a great deal and one thing is consistent: Large cities cities tend (not always but tend) to have very diverse populations. Seatle, Portland, New York, Miami, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Paris, Brussels, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal. Heck, even Detroit (Dearborn Michigan has the largest concentration of Arabs in North America).

 

Japan making a claim for multiculturalism would be hilarious.. Although I do love Japan very much, they still cling to their insularity and homogeneity in ways we cannot fathom.

Hey, it's not easy being the Yamato race.

Wow, you guys sure get mad when proven wrong. I'm sorry your 'emotional arguments' and 'pathetic' attempts at research using whatever incomplete, outdated, and inaccurate information is at hand aren't working for you. You'll notice I use big grownup words like 'spurrious' and 'logic' in my posts, not angry words like 'pathetic', 'vile' and stuff. Bake seems to have a penis obession today, not sure what that's about. You guys just seem really pissed off to me, angry and hostile. My posts don't have that level of hatred as I tend to rely on logic and *accurate* statistics, not emotions and demagoguery.

Wow, you guys sure get mad when proven wrong.

I must have missed the part where you proved anything at all. Your unsubstantiated claims are not proof. Especially given your erroneous GDP claims.

And while we can all be impressed with your "big words", we would be even more impressed if you provided evidence for your assertions.

Of course, neither Bakerstreet or myself have written classy things like:

Bake seems to have a penis obession today

I agree, your posts don't have hatred in them. Good for you.  But they are full of ignorance and unfounded conceit with a touch of juvenille behavior.

Again, Brad has posted factual census data showing the diversity in various nations. Dave has said that all that doesn't matter, that you have to go there and rely upon your subjective biases to make uninformed decisions and bludgeon other people with them.

Sounds like the average anti-American grump.

Piss on em, Canada owes the safety of their very back to us.

Cool. At least you're honest about it. Brad claimed that Canada is one of the least multicultural countries; I begged to differ, corrected Brad on his usual bad data, then provided links to support my thesis. Somehow that got twisted into "I hate America" Which is a typical tactic sensitive Americans use when someone points out that they are wrong.

Oderint dum Metuant. ( let them hate, so long as they fear.)

My posts are unhateful, it's the yanks who are so full of piss and vinegar that they can't type an unhateful sentence. Fear? Pfffffft. Count how many lies I've pointed out to these guys in their posts on my blog. When they have to resort to lying, spewing vitriol, off topic rants and the like, it's a good sign that they're losing the debate

Here is a sample package of lies from BakerStreet:

Dave has said that all that doesn't matter, that you have to go there and rely upon your subjective biases to make uninformed decisions and bludgeon other people with them.

So to summarize, Bake claims I said:
1)Stats don't matter. Lie.
2)You must go to Canada *and* rely on your (get this) "subjective biases". That counts as two lies.
3) Once you get to Canada, make uninformed decisions. Lie.
4) You must now bludgeon people with your "uniformed decisions. Lie.

Thirty words in the sentence, and somehow he managed to pack five lies into it. Not too shabby, Bake.

I like how David will claim that he's "proven" us wrong simply because he insists he's correct. No facts. No evidence. Just his insistence.

Most people, when confronted with overwhelming evidence that they're wrong will just concede the point and move on.  But not David.  Then again, most people wouldn't be bold enough to claim that Canada is THE MOST diverse nation on Earth.

 

David: What links to data did you provide? None.

You just made these (incorrect) claims about Canada vs. USA in GDP spending.  You made claims about Canada's diversity with only your opinion to back it up. Heck, you tried to claim something that is extremely subjective to be an objective fact (your claim that Canada is the world's most diverse nation).

 

I guess when you can dictate reality, you can dictate truth. The thing is though, you can only dictate it in your own mind.

You don't offer proof, you offer opinion. You aren't gonna sway people with the kind of biases you've shown today on more than one thread. You want to promote Canada and spotlight the US's shortcomings feel free, but this kind of "Believe me because I tell you to" stuff is childish. Brad went to the trouble, took time out of his day, to present proof to you.

You think he doesn't care what you think? Well, after the kind of obtuse response from you he may not now. You spit in people's faces when you off-handedly reject information they present to you and then just expect them to believe whatever you say because you are morally superior...

Most people, when confronted with overwhelming evidence that they're wrong will just concede the point and move on.

Most people, when repeatedly accused of lying, tend to defend their honour. I've accused you and Baker of lying 'a few' times now, here and in another thread, and you guys just rev up the vitriol machine and spew more angry words and more lies. Honest people generally take great exception to accusations of lying, but not you guys. You just move on the the next batch of lies and angry vitriol. I think that speaks volumes about your character.

And they are lies... because you say they are. Not because you prove anything. Just the iron fisted rule of our Canadian overlords. Pfft. The moment I write antagonistic articles about your internal politics, feel free to lay in to me. As long as you sit in Canada and pretend you are a movie critic with more insight and taste than the people who are actually participating in US poltiics, then you are the ugly one antagonizing people.

All these little glass nations keep throwing stones. Do you think when you try and pose the US as a meddling, holier-than-thou nation it really rings true? Again, go count how many of us write scathing articles about your nation's politcs.

Australia: Caucasian 92%, Asian 7%, aboriginal and other 1%

Here is a newsflash for you Brad....

Within that 92% Caucasian... do you think it is possible at all, to be several different cultures??? just an idea?

You assertion is one of the most ridiculous I have seen to date. I would have expected better from a seasoned blogger such as yourself Brad... then again, if it wasn't for me here, we would have the JU community thinking Australia was this big island country of 92% of the same culture... and your job would have been done... You have dsplayed classic ignorance to the European cultures... Try going to a Melbourne Knights vs Sydney Kings soccer game... Croatians vs Serbians... oh, but they are both from Europe, so they're is no difference in their culture...

Yo paraphrase you Brad.... 'Sheesh'

BAM!!!

All these little glass nations keep throwing stones. Do you think when you try and pose the US as a meddling, holier-than-thou nation it really rings true? Again, go count how many of us write scathing articles about your nation's politcs.

Baker - our politics dont matter to you.

Your politics have an outcome on International affairs across the globe... that is my rationale... You can write a scathing article if you want... but it would be a waste of your time, because no one cares but us Australians... however, everyone cares about America...

BAM!!!