Why Did God Command Killing?

Is He Not a God of Love?

"And the Lord sent thee on a journey and said Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites and fight against them until they be consumed." 1 Samuel 15:18

Why was this command given? What kind of a person could follow such a God who advocated this? Is the God of the OT different than the God of the NT? Why the command to exterminate all men, women and children belonging to the seven or eight Cannanite nations? How could God approve of the blanket destruction, at times, of the killing of entire groups of people?

These are all fair questions. Many an objection is raised by unbelievers as to the view that the God of the OT is a God of love and mercy based on such scripture passages as the one above.

I'm not going to tone down or mitigate its stark reality because it would fail from the start. These instructions are quite clear and there are many texts such as the one listed above that speak of destroying whole populations.

In most of the situations as here there is a distinctive OT concept known as herem present and it means "curse," "that which stood under the ban" or "that which was dedicated to destruction." Basically the root of this means to separate. However this is not in a positive sense such as to be "sanctified" which means to be set aside for the service and glory of God. This is more like the opposite side of the coin and means to separate for destruction. In the NT Jesus spoke of the end times when the sheep and the goats would be separate giving us the same idea as to what we see here in the OT.

God dedicated these people, or in some cases individuals, to destruction because they violently and continually impeded or opposed his work usually over a long period of time. God is always slow to act. This act of destruction was not used frequently.

Abraham was given an amazing prediction. He was told his descendants would be exiled and mistreated for over 400 years before God would lead them out. While many may know that , they may not clearly understand the reason for this long delay. Genesis 15:13-16 explains that the "sin of the Amorites had not reached it's full measure. This meant that all the Canaanite tribes in Palestine whose sins God would tolerate until the Israelites came out of Egypt under Moses would evenutally be destroyed in the conquering of Palestine by Joshua..

So God waited for 400 years while the Amalekites and those other Canaanite groups filled up their cups of condemnation by their sinful behavior. God's mercy and grace was such that he waited giving them every opportunity to repent from their plummet into self-destruction. It's always our own behaviors that will get us in the end.

In the meantime the Israelites were not without sin. Deut 9:5 says:


"It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of ther land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations."


These nations were cut off to prevent the corruption of Israel and the rest of the world (Deut 20:16-18). When a nation starts burning children as a gift to the gods (Lev 18:21) and practices sodomy, beastiality and all sorts of nasty vices (Lev 18:25,27-30) the day of God's grace and mercy has begun to run out. I see the same happening eventually to our country as we kill the unborn literally sacrificing them to whatever god we're following.

Just as surgeons do not hesitate to amputate a limb affected by gangrene, taking some healthy flesh with it, God must do the same. This is like removing cancer that would eventually infect all of socieity and destroy the remaining good.

Sin is likened to yeast. Basically what yeast does is corrupt the dough. That's what would happen if sin is left unchecked. It would eventually spread and all would be affected.

Why was God so opposed to the Amalekites? When the Israelites were wandering and struggling thru the wilderness towards the Promised Land the Amalekites picked off the weak, sick and elderly at the end of the line of marchers and brutally murdered these stragglers. You'll see the warning Moses gave in Deut 25:17-18. He said the Amalekites had no fear of God and thought they were invincible.

Some commentators believe that the Amalekites were not merely plundering and disputing who owned the territority but were also attacking God's chosen people to discredit the living God. Some trace this people group's adamant hostility all through the OT, including the most savage butchery of all in Haman's (pre-Hitler) proclaimation that all Jews throughout the Persian Empire could be massacred on a certain day (Esther 3:8-11). Haman was an Amalekite. His actions revealed his nation's deep hatred for God and the people whom God had chosen to bless the world. To this day the Jews celebrate God's protection and delieverance from Haman. Every Spring they have a two day celebration going all the way back to this time.

In Numbers 25 and 31 Israel was also told to conduct a war of extermination against all those in Midian with the exception of the young girls because this people group had led the Israelites into idolatry and immorality. It was very important that the preservation of Israel stay intact. This is the people group that God had chosen not only to be a light to the whole world but to also bring his son into when the time was full.

So here this command was to break Midian's strength by killing all the males and any woman who had slept with a man and who could still become mothers. There are further examples of the principle of herem including the verse in Psalm 106.34. This psalm recounts the sins committed in the land of Canaan by the Israelites including failure to destroy the inhabitants and idolatry. So they also questioned God at times when given these commands sometimes leaving survivors or just not doing what he commanded and they always paid the price for their sin.

"They did not destroy the nations concerning whom the Lord commanded them; but were mingled among the heathen and learned their works. And they served their idols; which were a snare to them. Yes, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters to devils and shed innocent blood even the blood of their sons and of their daughters whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works and went a whoring with their own inventions." Psalm 106:34-39
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Reply #1 Top

The thing is, people think "sin" is a laundry list of "do's" and "don'ts".  That's not true.  Sin means to knowingly go against the will of God.  If God tells you to kill, it would be a sin not to kill.  Of course, there are the laws of man, and the laws of God, and obeying one doesn't excuse you from the judgement of the other.  So if you do kill for God, you can't expect the laws of Man to understand and let you off the hook.

btw, some people unknowingly go against the laws of God... that is the difference between Sin and Transgression.

Reply #2 Top
Interesting, but I fail to see why God would care. Why not just let his "good" people get the shaft and then reside with Him in heaven forever and ever, and let the bad guys die off and go to hell?

On another note, God seems pretty meddlesome in the early OT. It's like he created all these folks, and they aren't behaving how he wants them to, so he's running around sticking his fingers in everyone's pies trying to force them into line. Hey...it's his world, he can do what he wants. But I have to wonder...if he is willing to meddle to make things right, why not just create people that aren't so inclined to misbehave? That's meddling too, but if it's ok to meddle in the affairs of humans to get what you want...why not just snap your fingers and HAVE what you want without all the muss and fuss? Same with Jesus and the lepers and blind guy and all that. Don't just cure the blind guy, dude - cure blindness from the world. Don't cure a bunch of lepers - remove leprosy! You're a god for chrissakes. Think big! :D
Reply #3 Top
Sin means to knowingly go against the will of God.


That's it in a nutshell basically. All our sins come from one basic biggie. Rebellion against God. That's why we don't go after the outward sins. We start with the heart. It all comes from the heart. When we have people come in to our church off the street, we don't chastize them for their sins. We introduce them to Christ first and over time the rest takes care of itself.

btw, some people unknowingly go against the laws of God... that is the difference between Sin and Transgression


Hmmmmm never heard that Ted. I'll have to look into that. I always looked at both transgression and iniquity as just another word for sin... I know scripture does teach the sin of omission and the sin of co-mission.

Why not just let his "good" people get the shaft and then reside with Him in heaven forever and ever, and let the bad guys die off and go to hell?


Well this happens also...all the time. Usually people forget that tho and dwell on these "bad" passages because it's easier to make God out to be a big bad God in the sky.

On another note, God seems pretty meddlesome in the early OT.


You say meddlesome? I say protective and provisional.

It's like he created all these folks, and they aren't behaving how he wants them to, so he's running around sticking his fingers in everyone's pies trying to force them into line


Well I showed you how he's patient for just so long. We see that throughout not just the old but also in Christ in the new as well. I think the time we are going thru now is just that same patience being displayed while we make a mess of things down here.

But I have to wonder...if he is willing to meddle to make things right, why not just create people that aren't so inclined to misbehave


You mean like robots? Not give them freewill? Then what would this discussion be about? Hmmmmm?

...why not just snap your fingers and HAVE what you want without all the muss and fuss?


because God has a big plan in the making. It don't look so pretty from our vantage point but to God being able to see the ending from the beginning (like I explained to Karma using the parade analogy) has it all under control. And as I study this more and more I'm starting to really get it. One day we will know that we don't want to go back and open the Pandora's box of sin that Adam and Eve did. We will know the consequences and we will be glad to worship God from the bottom of our hearts for saving us from that life for eternity. We will be worshipping God with our own freewill.





Reply #4 Top
because God has a big plan in the making.


What is it?

You mean like robots? Not give them freewill?


Yes, like robots - but really well programmed ones. Would we be unhappy? No...not if we were well programmed.

Maybe I'm missing something. Does god need us to choose for some reason? If so, what's the reason?
Reply #5 Top

Now, God is supposedly omniscient, right?  Why does He nip this crap in the bud before it gets out of hand?  I mean, seeing anything and everything during all of time...you'd think He could whip up a precautionary measure or two.  Take out evil people before they corrupt others and eventually the country as a whole.  I mean, that's what I would do.

Maybe I just don't get the point where you would wait until apparently the entire civilization is evil(including children somehow) and then command people to fight and kill every last one of them.  It just seems...odd.  Eh, maybe God just likes seeing us kill each other.  Like a celestial cockfight or something.  Eh, whatever...I just hope God doesn't command me to murder people.

~Zoo

Reply #6 Top
Maybe I just don't get the point where you would wait until apparently the entire civilization is evil(including children somehow) and then command people to fight and kill every last one of them. It just seems...odd. Eh, maybe God just likes seeing us kill each other. Like a celestial cockfight or something. Eh, whatever...I just hope God doesn't command me to murder people.
End of quote


Or maybe God sees death differently than we do hear in this life.

"If you believe in forever, then life is just a one night stand".
Reply #7 Top

Yes, like robots - but really well programmed ones. Would we be unhappy? No...not if we were well programmed

I don't see our existence about being about our "happiness" Ock.  I believe God created us to have a personal relationship with us.  He lets us choose whether to be with Him or not.  He gives us life, he gives us each individually our own "light" (meaning even a guy on a desert island who never heard of Jesus knows he didn't create the trees, the hills,etc.  How he honors that knowledge is either honoring God, or not.), and then he waits for us to have a relationship with him.

I once heard it described like this.  God is like a grandpa with his toddler grandchild.  He holds a piece of candy in his hand above his head.  He holds the candy so the child will crawl up in his lap and have interaction with him (not to be mean, just knowing the child well enough to know candy is something he/she will enjoy).  They laugh and play together while the child wants the candy.  We are often like the child, and once we get the candy, we get down off God's lap and wander off, until of course we need something again.

How much more precious is love freely given and not compelled?

Reply #8 Top

KFC,

This, to me personally, was one of the hardest things to deal with in my walk.  I studied it and came to much the same conclusions in your article.

God isn't all peace signs and love your neighbor.  He is a jealous God.  A vengeful God.  Slow to anger, sure, but once angered that's it.  It's like holding people accountable for their behavior after letting them show you time and time again they refuse to change.  Is it harsh?  Yeah, to the person you are holding accountable. 

I generally learn long lasting lessons from serious pain.  In my life, God slowly turns up the heat when he wants me to be better in an area, to change my attitude or the way I see things.  I get many gentle prods though, long before I get the first smack.  And when it comes, ya know what?  I'm not even surprised.  I know exactly why I'm suffering.  And even then, sometimes, I stay stubborn, and the heat goes up. 

Kinda like I discipline my kids.  They get gentle reminders.  When they still decide to go their own way, I let the natural consequences make them understand why their way isn't best..unless its dangerous, then I make an equivalent consequence.  But sometimes I don't explain myself to them, I say I am in charge and that's just how it is.  Heh.

Reply #9 Top

Or maybe God sees death differently than we do hear in this life.

"If you believe in forever, then life is just a one night stand".

hahaha.

Ted.  I totally believe this.  Especially when I read Job.  He lost everything, even his children.  Then when God gave him everything back, everything was doubled EXCEPT the number of children he had again.  That number was the same.  Why is that?  I wondered and wondered and came to the same conclusion.

If death is the threshold to heaven for Job's kids, then when God gave him more children, God was counting the ones in heaven too.  He doubled everything, including the size of Job's family.  To me its like God says, your children are your children, even when they are in heaven.

Which reminds me of a woman I heard once talk about her three kids.  One was dead.  She said every night in bed she thought, ok, Child A is spending the night at M's house, Child B is in bed, Child C is in the grave yard, at least the body.

The point is, she didn't stop considering her child, her child, even in death.

Reply #10 Top
you'd think He could whip up a precautionary measure or two.


well maybe not precautionary unless you count his warning to them in the garden that precipitated this whole new ballgame, but he did have a plan to redeem us from all this sin right from the getgo. Right in the garden when he pronounced judgment before he cast Adam out he told them he had a plan. A plan that would involve his son who would come to take away the sin of all those that would come to him. Think of our sin like a sickness and Christ is the healer. Only he has the medicine that can cure us.

Take out evil people before they corrupt others and eventually the country as a whole. I mean, that's what I would do.


Now that's exactly what we are seeing here Zoo. This is what you've been complaining against on the other blog. You brought up all this killing by God as a not so good thing. Now do you see the other side of all this?

maybe God just likes seeing us kill each other.


No, what God likes to see is obedience. The Israelites didn't always do what they were told and they paid for it. Being obedient is not usually the easy road.

Or maybe God sees death differently than we do hear in this life.


I second that!

Maybe I'm missing something. Does god need us to choose for some reason? If so, what's the reason?


I'm not getting your question Ock. Choose what? Choose him? Choose life? Choose a life of sin or obedience?

we get down off God's lap and wander off, until of course we need something again.


good analogy and we know where to go for the sweetness when we need it don't we? When the world gives us nothing but bitterness and heartache we can go to God for a bit of sweet fellowship and know that he's always there when we need him.

If death is the threshold to heaven for Job's kids, then when God gave him more children, God was counting the ones in heaven too. He doubled everything, including the size of Job's family. To me its like God says, your children are your children, even when they are in heaven.


This is the exact conclusion I have as well T. Death is nothing but separation. Physical death is just the body separating from the soul. Job was sure to meet up with his previously deceased children after his soul departed and now is in heaven with all 20 of them.
Reply #11 Top
Or maybe God sees death differently than we do hear in this life.
End of quote


I think I have to agree...because He seems quite indiscriminate about whoever He decides to knock off. Maybe it is some kind of game...though we never see what happens afterward...maybe we go to a waterpark when we die and it's super awesome...although on this side of existence it sure does suck.

Now that's exactly what we are seeing here Zoo.
End of quote


Well, no...actually we're seeing a complete wipe out of an entire group of people. I refuse to believe that every single one of them was riddled in sin...especially children or infants. It just seems a little unfair. Punishment I can understand...but murder based on race or culture I do not.

Oh God of Love and Vengeance...you're so bipolar.

~Zoo
Reply #12 Top
Oh God of Love and Vengeance...you're so bipolar.
End of quote


 :LOL: 

The best I can say here Zoo is it's all about spiritual warfare.

Think fiery darts of the wicked one. Satan is sort of like Cupid gone bad.  ;) 
Reply #13 Top
Well, no...actually we're seeing a complete wipe out of an entire group of people. I refuse to believe that every single one of them was riddled in sin...especially children or infants. It just seems a little unfair. Punishment I can understand...but murder based on race or culture I do not.

Oh God of Love and Vengeance...you're so bipolar.
End of quote


Exactly!


~KFC:

Let me ask you this: If your God is a loving one, then why would he/she/it condemn and call out for the murder of fellow children of God? If God is love, then why send his children to hell? If he is such a loving God (according to you), then why does he seem so dark, and at times - evil?

Personally, thats not my God.

Reply #14 Top
The best I can say here Zoo is it's all about spiritual warfare.
End of quote


*sigh* It's always about war...be it heaven, earth, or hell...physical, mental, or spiritual...it's always war. How tedious.

~Zoo
Reply #15 Top
If God is love, then why send his children to hell?
End of quote


he doesn't. God never sends his children to hell. Never. Do people go to hell eventually? Yes. No one is there yet. But his children will never see hell. So who goes? The ones who chose to go. If you choose NOT to believe God YOU have chosen. A choice against God is a choice to be separated from him for all eternity. You'll have no one to blame but yourself.

Just think of it like going to court. You are sent to jail because you committed a crime. In this case the crime was against God who is the judge in the court.

If God is love, then why send his children to hell? If he is such a loving God (according to you), then why does he seem so dark, and at times - evil?
End of quote


did you read this whole article? I think it's pretty clear. Read it again just in case you missed it the first time. God is light....Satan is darkness.

Personally, thats not my God.
End of quote


then you are not one of his children. His children call him Father as in "My Father who art in heaven, hallowed by your name."





Reply #16 Top
did you read this whole article? I think it's pretty clear. Read it again just in case you missed it the first time. God is light....Satan is darkness.
End of quote


Yes i did, but realize that it was YOUR interpretation of why. Yours, according to what you THINK God desires. That's all any religious persons' claims are. No one can ever truly know what God says or desires or his ways. It's called faith for a reason.

It's just like saying, "Oh, well, God created everything in seven days." Well, what is time to God?

*sigh* It's always about war...be it heaven, earth, or hell...physical, mental, or spiritual...it's always war. How tedious.
End of quote


Yeah really, I agree. "War...what is it good for?" (Love that song.)

he doesn't. God never sends his children to hell. Never. Do people go to hell eventually? Yes. No one is there yet. But his children will never see hell. So who goes? The ones who chose to go. If you choose NOT to believe God YOU have chosen. A choice against God is a choice to be separated from him for all eternity. You'll have no one to blame but yourself.

Just think of it like going to court. You are sent to jail because you committed a crime. In this case the crime was against God who is the judge in the court.
End of quote


Yes he does, by proxy. According to your beliefs...If we don't follow "his" word (I use his loosely because wave no factual or otherwise solid evidence that what is written in the bible, is truly his word. To me, it is the word of men, who think they know what God says.) then we go to hell. His word, supposidly written in the bible, is the agent. Not just that, but if he loves us, then why would he set us up for possible failure? If he loves us, and wants us all to return to heaven, then why set us up to fail?

What good is redemption when you put things in the way of gaining it? Sure, I could say (if i was God), "Go and live your lives freely my children. I want you to come back, but if you sin, if you follow the evil path, then you're going to hell."

See what I mean? God says he loves us all, but the goes about his way in sanctifying murder, and other horrible things. (Some of which are supposadly forbidden, like murder.)

Compassion, love, and hope for return are all well and good, but when you combine that with a seemingly contradictory means.

then you are not one of his children. His children call him Father as in "My Father who art in heaven, hallowed by your name."
End of quote


What is God, but the supreme being. What is Allah, but the supreme being. What is Yaweh, but the supreme being. He is everything we know and all that we will know.

Each religion has its version of God. In the end they're all a supreme being, and (in my opinion) the same being.


Reply #17 Top
P.S.

First off, meant to say he/she when refering to God directly (When i said "he.").

Secondly, yes you are right in that judgment. My God, doesn't care about what he/she is called, as long as I follow. I believe in The God/Allah/Yaweh/Supreme Being.

Whatever you want to call him doesn't matter to me because he is everything and in everyone. I only care that you find happiness and peace in your life, whatever way you can. That, I believe, is the best way of life.

Reply #18 Top
I don't see our existence about being about our "happiness" Ock.


Yeah, that's pretty clear, isn't it?

I believe God created us to have a personal relationship with us. He lets us choose whether to be with Him or not.


And if we don't we're punished for choosing wrong (according to the tenets of Christian fundamentalism)

That's a little like locking a girl in a room until she decides to be your girlfriend, and if she never does, you torture her. It's exactly like it, actually. The girl says "I want OUT of here! I want to be FREE!" And her captor replies "Oh you're quite free. Free to love me, that is. Anything else you're "free" to do will result in eternal torture. Enjoy your freedom."

I'm not getting your question Ock. Choose what? Choose him? Choose life? Choose a life of sin or obedience?


Why does he need us to *choose* to be obedient as opposed to just making us obedient? Since it's clear (as you quickly noted) that if we didn't have free will that we'd just be robots, then us making this choice must satisfy some need. It must be important for some reason that we actually make this choice. What is the reason? What need does it satisfy?

But his children will never see hell. So who goes? The ones who chose to go. If you choose NOT to believe God YOU have chosen. A choice against God is a choice to be separated from him for all eternity. You'll have no one to blame but yourself.


Can we wait until we die to decide?
Reply #19 Top
That's a little like locking a girl in a room until she decides to be your girlfriend, and if she never does, you torture her. It's exactly like it, actually. The girl says "I want OUT of here! I want to be FREE!" And her captor replies "Oh you're quite free. Free to love me, that is. Anything else you're "free" to do will result in eternal torture. Enjoy your freedom."
End of quote


Brilliant analogy.
Reply #20 Top
That's a little like locking a girl in a room until she decides to be your girlfriend, and if she never does, you torture her. It's exactly like it, actually. The girl says "I want OUT of here! I want to be FREE!" And her captor replies "Oh you're quite free. Free to love me, that is. Anything else you're "free" to do will result in eternal torture. Enjoy your freedom."
End of quote


Totally wrong analogy.

It's like rescuing a prostitute from being beaten and killed, and bringing her back home to your house, nursing her back to health, showing perfect love and care to her, and then at the end, giving her the freedom to go back to her old life or stay with you.
Reply #21 Top
And if we don't we're punished for choosing wrong (according to the tenets of Christian fundamentalism)

That's a little like locking a girl in a room until she decides to be your girlfriend, and if she never does, you torture her. It's exactly like it, actually. The girl says "I want OUT of here! I want to be FREE!" And her captor replies "Oh you're quite free. Free to love me, that is. Anything else you're "free" to do will result in eternal torture. Enjoy your freedom."
End of quote


I understand your point, but I don't agree with it.

There are natural consequences to every action we make in life. We don't have to LIKE the consequences, or even agree with them for them to still be true.

I don't like the fact I can't eat a truck load of chocolate without getting a butt the size of Texas. To me that is just not right. I can whine and cry about the unfairness of it all, even convince myself its a lie, that I can actually eat all the chocolate I want with no ill effects, I can convince others of my right idea...but in the end, my ass will still be the size of Texas.

Take your girl in the room. I don't agree with the premise that God has locked us in a room and demanded fellowship. I think a better analogy is, he has created a home for the girl to live in, come and go as she pleases. There are house rules though, and violating them won't get her evicted immediately, but eventually she will have to leave the house and hit the street. After all, why would she be living in God's house and not want anything to do with Him? Why would anyone want to spend eternity with someone they don't want to know right now? Doesn't make sense to me.

The fact of the matter is, God created us for fellowship. We can either embrace it, or reject it. Our choice. And there are natural consequences to those choices. We don't have to like it, agree with it, or even believe it. It's just how it is.

I don't know about you, but this idea, accountability, consequences of actions, is something I struggle to teach my kids. There seems to be this idea with them that they can do whatever they want and there won't be any consequences, natural or otherwise. It's a constant struggle. Why, when it comes to God, do some think consequences aren't involved? He created the world to operate in a specific way, made us to live within those natural laws, but then will suspend them because...what? We are so special? I don't get that.

Reply #22 Top
Excellent Tova. We forget exactly how holy God really is as we have been increasingly working hard to knock him off his throne. I read this this morning from A.W. Tozer and thought it fit this subject. He said:

Holy is the way God is. To be holy He does not conform to a standard. He is that standard. He is absolutely holy with an infinite, incomprehensible fulness of purity that is incapable of being other than it is. Because He is holy, all His attributes are holy; that is, whatever we think of as belonging to God must be thought of as holy.

God is holy and He has made holiness the moral condition necessary to the heatlth of His universe. Sin's temporary presence in the world only accents this. Whatever is holy is healthy; evil is a moral sickness that must end ultimately in death. The formation of this language itself suggests this, the English word "holy" derviving from the Anglo-Saxon halig, hal, meaning "well, whole."

Since God's first concern for His universe is its moral health, that is, its holiness, whatever is contrary to this is necessarily under His eternal displeasure. To preserve His creation God must destroy whatever would destroy it. When He arises to put down iniquity and save the world from inseparable moral collapse, He is said to be angry. Every wrathful judgment in the history of the world has been a holy act of preservation. The holiness of God, the wrath of God, and the health of the creation are inseparably united. God's wrath is His utter intolerance of whatever degrades and destroys.

Reply #23 Top
My God, doesn't care about what he/she is called, as long as I follow


then I have to ask...who exactly is YOUR God?

My God says we need to pray like this:

Our Father Who art in Heaven
Hallowed be YOUR NAME

Names are very important to God. He actually has quite a few attributed to him the most popular being Jehovah or YHWH. This name is actually mentioned 6,683 times in the OT.



Reply #24 Top
Take your girl in the room. I don't agree with the premise that God has locked us in a room and demanded fellowship. I think a better analogy is, he has created a home for the girl to live in, come and go as she pleases. There are house rules though, and violating them won't get her evicted immediately, but eventually she will have to leave the house and hit the street. After all, why would she be living in God's house and not want anything to do with Him? Why would anyone want to spend eternity with someone they don't want to know right now? Doesn't make sense to me.
End of quote


Define God's house. If you mean earth, then we never had a choice.

Ock's analogy is quite true, though in a more stark and unappealing sense to your common Christian. We did not choose to live, we were thrust upon this earth and now we are forced to go one way or the other since we eventually have to die. It's not a kindness, but rather a forced decision. God always was and has decided to throw us out there to play with and see what we do. While we have a free choice for several aspects of our life, it's not a real choice if there is only salvation and damnation. No one wants to be damned, everyone wants to be saved...that's not a choice, that's a consequence. No one chooses damnation, they end up there...people might choose salvation but you have to work for it. It is a consequence of one's actions, nothing more-nothing less.

~Zoo
Reply #25 Top
We did not choose to live, we were thrust upon this earth and now we are forced to go one way or the other since we eventually have to die
End of quote


It's not about us Zoo. That's the whole point. That's the first thing you realize when God opens your eyes to him. You realize right then and there, it's much bigger than us.

No one chooses damnation, they end up there
End of quote


sin is the crime, damnation is the punishment that fits the crime against a holy God. Yes, we choose to sin. We choose to rebell against God. The thing is Zoo that you overlook is the fact that Christ paid for our crime. He took all our sin and gave his life up for ours. Because of him we do not have damnation to worry about. The only requirement is that we accept his offer of eternal life and follow him. That's it.

people might choose salvation but you have to work for it.
End of quote


There's no work involved for salvation. It's a gift. You don't have to work for a gift. It's free. Christ DID the work for us. When he gave up his spirit at death he said..."It is finished." We get to rest in him now. After accepting his sacrifice we follow him. Then the work begins but it has nothing to do with our salvation. From thereon in it's obedience.