Zoologist03 Zoologist03

Fabulous Bit about Evolution

Fabulous Bit about Evolution

Found this site: http://skeptoid.com/ and here's a nice little transcript from it that I came across.  This is written/spoken by Brian Dunning.  It's good.


 

Some creationists may be concerned that some of their standard arguments against evolution sound dismissive or patronizing. This is probably true: in any debate, it's common to frame your opponent's arguments in a weak light. Sometimes this is done deliberately to make evolution sound ridiculous, and sometimes it's done accidentally through ignorance of what evolution is and how it works. Since misinformation and ignorance are poor platforms on which to build any conversation, I present the following Evolution 101 Primer for the benefit of creationists who want a correct basic understanding of their foe. I think the best way to do this is to dispel the three most common evolution myths.

Myth #1: Men evolved from apes.

This is the oldest and wrongest misconception about evolution. Nobody has ever suggested that one species changes into another species. Some criticisms of evolution show illustrations that fraudulently purport to show what evolutionists claim: that a salmon changed into a turtle, which changed into an alligator, which changed into a hippo, which changed into a lion, and then into a monkey, and then into a human being. Of course such a theory would seem ludicrous. But it's pure fantasy and has nothing in common with real evolution.

The diversification of species is like a forest of trees, sprouting from the proverbial primordial soup. Many trees die out. Some don't grow very tall. Some have grown a lot over the eons and are still growing today. Trees branch out, and branches branch out themselves, but branches never come back together or combine from two different trees. The path of a species' evolution is shaped like the branch of a tree, not a donut, not a figure 8, not a ladder. To embrace evolution, you need not — must not — think that a salmon turns into a zebra, or that an ape turns into a man. It's simply not genetically possible.

We've all seen the other famous illustration, where a monkey morphs into an ape, that morphs into a caveman, that morphs into homo sapiens. If you climb back down the tree branch, you will indeed find earlier versions of man where he was smaller, hairier, and dumber, but it won't be a modern ape. To find a modern ape, you'd need to go even further down the tree, millions and millions of years, find an entirely different branch, and then follow that branch through different genetic variants, past numerous other dead-end branches, past other branches leading to other modern species, and then you'll find the modern ape. Never the twain shall meet.

Myth #2: Evolution is like a tornado in a junkyard forming a perfect 747.

This is a popular manifestation of the argument that evolution depends on randomness, and so it would be impossible for complex structures to evolve. Well, this is half right, but completely wrong in its totality. Random mutations are one driver of evolution, but this argument completely omits evolution's key component: natural selection.

Obviously, in reality, if a tornado went through a junkyard, you'd end up with worse junk, not a perfect 747. No evolutionary biologist, or any sane person, has ever claimed that you would. It's ridiculous. The tornado is meant to represent the random element of evolution, but genes don't mutate catastrophically all at once, like a tornado. Here is a more accurate way to use this same analogy.

Imagine millions of junkyards, representing any given population. Now imagine a group of welders, who walk carefully through each junkyard, twisting this, bending that, attaching two pieces of junk here, cutting something apart there. They do it randomly and make only a limited number of small changes. Sometimes they don't change anything. This is a far more accurate representation of how genes mutate within an organism. It's not a single cataclysmic tornado.

Now comes the natural selection. Let's test every piece of junk in every junkyard. Does anything work better? Does anything work worse? With millions of changes in millions of junkyards, it's inevitable that there will be some improvements somewhere. Part of natural selection is the eventual removal from the population of any organisms that are less well adapted, so to simulate this, we're going to eliminate all the junkyards where the junk was worse after the welders made their mutations. This leaves only junkyards that are stable, or that are improved. To simulate the next generation of the species, we replicate all of our current improved gene pool of junkyards, and again send in the welders. They make a few random changes in each, or no changes at all.

Each time this entire process happens, the population of junkyards improves. But this doesn't happen just a few times. It happens millions or billions of times. The changes made by the welders are countless. The vast majority of changes are either useless or make things even junkier. Since natural selection automatically filters out the poorly adapted junkyards and rewards those rare improved junkyards with additional procreation, our population of junkyards gets better and better. Things start to take shape in the junkyards. Useful things. Stronger things. Things with abilities that nobody could have predicted. Any given piece of junk that improves is replicated in many junkyards, and reappears in millions of slightly altered forms each time. Pick the best version from each generation, and you can literally watch the same piece of junk evolve into a better, stronger, more useful, and better adapted machine with more capabilities. This is evolution.

Myth #3: Evolution is just a theory.

First of all, if you believe that most biologists consider evolution to be "just a theory", you're behind the times. Almost all biologists call it a fact, and not because they feel any particular need to respond to creationists.

Second, when creationists try to put evolution down by dismissing it as "just a theory", they're actually acknowledging its scientific validity. To understand why, it's necessary to understand exactly what a theory is. When creationists use the term to disparage evolution, they really should be using the word hypothesis. A hypothesis is a provisional idea, a suggested explanation that requires validation. Evolution is well beyond that stage, though; even the staunchest anti-evolution creationists assign evolution the much higher status of theory.

In order to qualify as a theory, evolution had to meet the following criteria:

  • A theory must originate from, and be well supported by, experimental evidence. It must be supported by many strands of evidence, and not just a single foundation.
  • A theory must be specific enough to be falsifiable by testing. If it cannot be tested or refuted, it can't qualify as a theory.
  • A theory must make specific, testable predictions about things not yet observed.
  • A theory must allow for changes based on the discovery of new evidence. It must be dynamic, tentative, and correctable.

Notice that last one: tentative, correctable, and allowing for future changes. Creationists often point out that the theory of evolution is incomplete, like any theory, as if this disproves it. To be a theory, evolution must be incomplete by definition, and (no pun intended), constantly evolving.

The strict scientific definition of a fact is both simpler and hazier. A fact is a verifiable observation, and evolution is verified so many times throughout the entire science of biology that most biologists call it a fact. However many scientists contend that every fact has some element of theory to it, so in this sense, it doesn't really make any difference whether evolution is called a fact or a theory. Since biologists are always learning more and adding to our knowledge of evolution, it's probably best to leave it as a theory.

I hope some creationists find value in these explanations.


Now that was a very well put together explanation.

~Zoo

21,545 views 102 replies
Reply #76 Top

I question them all the time.
End of quote


Yes, sorry Ted. I was really referring to a specific person and was generalising too much there.
Reply #77 Top
My definition, and therefore my moral code, would be different to yours or anyone elses because my interpretation of what constitutes moral behaviour is subjective, as is yours and anyone elses.
End of quote


Yes, you're referring to relativism. What's good for you might not be good for me. I don't agree with that....as you probably know. I do believe in absolute truth and believe there is a code that we are to measure up to.

As children, we're taught right from wrong. We're taught not to lie, cheat, steal or murder
End of quote


You and I were taught that but many are not. I've seen kids as young as 10 years old taught to steal with their parent's consent. This is more common than you'd think. So according to your relativism, there's nothing wrong with that. If it's good for them, then who are you or I to tell them it's not right? If I want to punch you in the face because it helps me feel good, how can you say I'm wrong?

Okay, first of all, you are assuming I believe in Jesus
End of quote


No, not really I know you don't. The fact is many people do believe in this historical Jesus and whether they totally follow him or not do admit he had some good things to say.

Secondly, the moral code of the society he was supposed to be a part of is vastly different from today. There really is no way to compare. Our society, for all its bad points, is much more aware of our own morality than folk living in Jesus' time.
End of quote


But maybe that would be because we were made aware of this morality because he came to change lives? Like I said, he said and did some radical things that made people change their ways as they meditated on the things said by him. Before he came, people did what was right in their own eyes (relativism) and we are on the fast track of returning to those days.

Society makes up the rules, governed, as Zoo suggests, by tyhe desire to continue the human race. In your individual opinion, society might have 'fallen short' but I'm sure there are many who would disagree.
End of quote


I actually agree with you on this. Society is making up the rules and it's not going so good. Although it's not my opinion (doesn't mean much anyhow) about society falling short. It's coming directly from God (if you believe the scriptures to be true) and ultimately he's the one who makes up the rules of morality that we are not adhering to and it's going to hurt us as it has already.

I really wish I could meet a Christian whose faith is strong enough to question his own beliefs.


I question them all the time. Some of the beliefs I hold dear now took years for me to fully accept. In fact, to me, everytime a Christian turns to God in prayer, we are questioning one belief or another. If we weren't then we wouldn't have to rely on God for answers, would we.
End of quote


I agree Ted. We are always to examine our lives and test the faith to see if it's true. Over the years I've had to also make adjustments here and there as God continues to sanctify me getting me ready for the "other side."



Reply #78 Top

I really wish I could meet a Christian whose faith is strong enough to question his own beliefs.

Heh, what's it look like I'm doing?   I know what you're getting at, though.

~Zoo

Reply #79 Top
Zoo staying with the topic of evolution here and using scripture I thought you'd like to see how science and the bible can mesh quite nicely.

In Chemistry-Jesus turned water into wine
In Biology-He was born without normal conception
In Physics-He overcome the law of gravity by walking on water and also ascended into heaven
In Economics-He disproved the law of diminishing return by feeding the 5,000 with only two fish and five loaves of bread
In Medicine-He healed the sick and blind without a single dose of drugs
In History-He is the beginning and the end
In Government-He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords
In Religion-No comes to God the Father except through Him

Reply #80 Top
Not really meshing...just plucking out things that are in no way possible without either imagination, technology, or divine intervention.

By the way, the Law of Diminishing Returns deals with the fact that you can only increase production of something to a certain point by adding more workers up to a point where adding another worker costs more than the possible return you will get.

If I have 5 workers make 100 units each a day and add another that can only give me 90, then that's point where it starts to go downhill. The returns diminsh. :)

~Zoo
Reply #81 Top
Leauki posts:

If Christians do good because G-d wants them to, will G-d be fooled and admit them to heaven even though the reason they did good was submission to G-d rather than love for one's fellow human beings?

Does it count as love if it is done on command? Is that not prostitution? Love on command?

And what if somebody finds a lost text about, say, Jesus' life? It's completely authentic and says "Murder as many people as possible". Would Christians accept it and start murdering or would they reject it because murder is wrong? What if their belief that murder is wrong influences their decision to accept the lost gospel? Wouldn't that mean that they believe that the morality of murder is above Jesus' word?
End of quote


Lula posts:
All these "what ifs" is like a situation ethics game with God as the subject. I'm not going to play this game.
End of quote


Leauki posts:
I really wish I could meet a Christian whose faith is strong enough to question his own beliefs.
End of quote


Yes, sorry Ted. I was really referring to a specific person and was generalising too much there.
End of quote




If this specific person is me then I would answer that I do plenty of questioning as any thinking person who is exercising his faith every day in all facets of his life.

Here by faith I mean that supernatural gift of GOd which enables us to believe without doubting whatever God has revealed. I believe whatever God has revealed becasue God is Very Truth and can neither deceive or be deceived.

The chief mysteries of Faith which I believe without question are the Unity and Trinity of God, who will render perfect justice to every man according to his works, the Incarnation, Death and the Resurrection of our Savior, Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

I try to study with humility and earnestness the evidences of Christianity, the argument from miracles and prophecy, the absolute Perfection of Christ, His teachings, the fact of His Resurrection, His Divine Church and the marvelous and miraculous spread and continuance of it despite every obstacle, and so forth.

As a result of years of studying and questioning I have come to the conclusion that supernatural faith includes the following principles:

God is our Beginning and our Last End.
God has supreme dominion over us.
We owe God due service which we express in His divine religion, namely Christianity.
Divine religion is the true worship of the One true God.
God has told us how He wants to be worshipped.
Man must obey this teaching of God.
Man has no right to practice a religion of his own making against God's will.
God alone can declare to us in what Divine religion consists which is concerned primarily for the care of our interior life, the condition of the soul.
This declaration of God contains the body of revealed truths which consists of written revelation, Sacred Scripture, and oral revelation, Tradition. We are bound to believe them; we must have faith in them.





Reply #82 Top
Lula,

a limitless number of moral codes has degenerated into tolerance of any belief or activity no matter how evil or bizarre.
End of quote


You don't really believe this, do you? Sure, there are always people who are going to step outside boundaries and limitations set by laws within a society. Prisons are full of such people. That said, most of us are aware of the basics of right and wrong. This is something we learn not through religious studies but through interacting and being part of society. For some, their religion defines these boundaries better.

KFC,

Yes, you're referring to relativism. What's good for you might not be good for me. I don't agree with that....
End of quote


I will stick to my guns and say that, regardless of how you see it, the fact you are looking at a particular situation and forming an opinion of it is completely subjective because you are an individual, a single entity. Sure, your opinion is based firmly on your beliefs, your moral code and your faith, but all this is still subjective because you are also an individual.

maybe that would be because we were made aware of this morality because he came to change lives?
End of quote


Or maybe it is because we, as a society, are generally more aware and alert to issues of a moral nature. Applying your example, the same could be said for those who welcome the teachings of Mohammad or Buddha or Joseph Smith Jr.

ultimately he's the one who makes up the rules of morality that we are not adhering to and it's going to hurt us as it has already
End of quote


I don't agree with this statement at all, and not just because of your confusing use of plurals ('we' and 'us'). The 'hurt' you refer to has always been around, always part of human society. It is unfortunate but it is a fact. I believe the only reason it feels like it is worse today is because bad news sells (and this is a whole other blog). But I'm sure you know what I mean.
Reply #83 Top

Dynamaso posts:
As children, we're taught right from wrong. We're taught not to lie, cheat, steal or murder. We're taught not to hurt each other. But then when we grow into adults, lies become necessary, even if these are only white lies to prevent hurting another's feelings. Perhaps we also learn that pain, inflicted in a particular way, is actually sensual. It doesn't make the individual any less moral, but establishes a personal, individual code.
End of quote


Lula posts:
This is moral relativism. Each person can draw up their own moral code which results in a limitless number of moral codes. I'm OK, you're OK type thinking...the danger that has arisen moral relativism, a limitless number of moral codes has degenerated into tolerance of any belief or activity no matter how evil or bizarre.
End of quote


You don't really believe this, do you? Sure, there are always people who are going to step outside boundaries and limitations set by laws within a society. Prisons are full of such people. That said, most of us are aware of the basics of right and wrong. This is something we learn not through religious studies but through interacting and being part of society. For some, their religion defines these boundaries better.
End of quote


Yes, I do. It's based on the fact that there is only one truth..and on the principle of noncontradiction that something can't be true and not true at the same time.

If everyone has their own moral code, claim their own truth according to their own ego and desires, it stands to reason that so many different beliefs can't all be true....yet, in this day of tolerance, no one dares to state the obvious.



Reply #84 Top
Zoo posts: #53

Religion functions as a moral delivery system of a certain society


Lula posts:

Exactly, that's why I said morality needs religion.
End of quote


Zoo posts:

There's a good reason for that...religion establishes control if you believe in it.
End of quote


Zoo posts:
Say some random guy tells a group how to live, they say...well, why should we listen? The man could attach divinity to these principles and once establishing a sacred power makes these a sort of higher law. It's quite clever, actually. Tell them there are big scary gods who demand sacrifice and obedience or you'll suffer and die. People are pretty gullible when they're ignorant...fool the first group of people, then they teach their children...and you're pretty much anchored in there. That's how you make a religion.
End of quote


Lula posts:

If religion is not the basis of morality, what is?


Zoo posts:
Exceedingly simple. Morality starts off as base human nature. You have to have a certain pattern of behavior when you're living in a group. Look at monkeys. They don't kill eachother, steal, and rape as much as possible(there are the odd instances, but I'm talking overall)...they have certain behaviors unique to them so they can function as a unit. Same thing with people, except as a large society capable of communicating with millions we spread these ideas out and attach a divine meaning in them so people will give them more creedence.


Lula posts:
Are you saying we humans get our morality from the way the group monkey thing works only since we're further up the intelligence chain attach a divine meaning?


Zoo posts:
Something like that. You see, social behavior and bonding is inherent in our species. A form of social cohesiveness. However, as society develops it takes on a grander meaning, and I believe it has been incorporated into religion. Now, I have no papers to back this up, I'm just going on a basic understanding of psychology and my adequate understanding of primate society. There are certain rules in any group of animals. There are ranks, acceptable behavior, and unacceptable behavior. This is exactly like human society.
End of quote

-------------------------

Zoo,

After re-reading this, it occurred to me that you seem to be looking at religion as it relates to morality as though its concern for man is from a material viewpoint, a form of socialogical system from which its authorities have some kind of control over the followers.

Christianity,God's Divine religion, is only concerned with our interior life, the condition of our soul. Morality is only one part of Divine religion based upon God's absolutes.

Reply #85 Top
After re-reading this, it occurred to me that you seem to be looking at religion as it relates to morality as though its concern for man is from a material viewpoint, a form of socialogical system from which its authorities have some kind of control over the followers.
End of quote


Pretty much, yeah. Discarding the whole belief system and dogma from any religion you find that it is used as a means of establishing oneself in a society, forming a bond with the geography, and orienting a timeline of some sort. That is true for every religion.

Where it starts to differ is in its beliefs, myths, legends, and morals. Some religions aren't even concerned with individual wellbeing, but more focused on the community as a whole. So it's all relative according to the religion, really. Morals are used in that society as a form of instruction for the populous to act in an acceptable way. Of course you have your own basic morals, not stealing, killing, stuff like that...but you have significant variation and handling of them based on the society. So the morals are independent, and a religion adds a different flavor to them and serves as an aid(not the only source) of injecting them into society.

Think of it this way, what would scare someone into submission more? Getting punished for awhile in prison or damning your soul to hellfire for all eternity? If you were a leader, wouldn't you want to push the latter to scare people off from doing stupid crap and to do that you would establish a national religion such as England did or promote it heavily in America's case.

~Zoo
Reply #86 Top
Lula,

If everyone has their own moral code, claim their own truth according to their own ego and desires, it stands to reason that so many different beliefs can't all be true....yet, in this day of tolerance, no one dares to state the obvious.


So, according to this line of thinking, the morals of a paedophile, a violent sociopath or an ultra right wing zealot are just as valid as yours or mine. Now I know this isn't the case. Most of us view people such as these as outside moralistic norms. The only people swayed by their 'truths' are themselves.

Reply #87 Top
Most of us view people such as these as outside moralistic norms. The only people swayed by their 'truths' are themselves.
End of quote


You are correct for the most part. However there is a movement in the states that does believe that (not that they themselves beleive it, only that we must 'respect' all other beleifs, no matter how repugnant to our own social codes they may be).

But these people's "tolerance" of what for the most part the rest of us find intolerant has nothing to do with religion per se. Only with their feeling that it is wrong to impose one society's moral code on another. And so we get people who condone stoning of rape victims, and other such atrocities - all in the name of "tolerance".
Reply #88 Top
Only with their feeling that it is wrong to impose one society's moral code on another. And so we get people who condone stoning of rape victims, and other such atrocities - all in the name of "tolerance".
End of quote


It's fine to be tolerant and allow people to do whatever they wish. However, that attitude can only stretch so far until other people get hurt in some way. When that happens, it's time for society's values to come flying in your face.

I'm tolerant of someone who maybe likes to dance with chickens while eating bananas while dressed as a clown. That's strange, but it's not hurting anyone. When someone starts to rape, murder, mug, or anything else that directly affects a person's wellbeing then it's time to shut them down. There's a lot of leeway with a tolerant attitude, but to allow people to hurt others...that's ALWAYS intolerable, at least in my book. I don't know how someone could allow innocent people to get hurt in the name of being "tolerant." I know I'd pay him a visit to beat some sense into him...I know I wouldn't get in trouble, I'd just be exercising my individuality.

~Zoo
Reply #89 Top
DYnamaso posts:
So, according to this line of thinking, the morals of a paedophile, a violent sociopath or an ultra right wing zealot are just as valid as yours or mine.
End of quote


Yes, this line of thinking is moral relativism. Everyone's viewpoint or own moral code is of equal value.

DRGUY POSTS:
You are correct for the most part. However there is a movement in the states that does believe that (not that they themselves beleive it, only that we must 'respect' all other beleifs, no matter how repugnant to our own social codes they may be).

But these people's "tolerance" of what for the most part the rest of us find intolerant has nothing to do with religion per se. Only with their feeling that it is wrong to impose one society's moral code on another. And so we get people who condone stoning of rape victims, and other such atrocities - all in the name of "tolerance".
End of quote


Yes, thanks for explaining so clearly. Tolerance has become number one "virtue" here in the States to the point of tolerating the untolerable.



ZOO posts:

It's fine to be tolerant and allow people to do whatever they wish. However, that attitude can only stretch so far until other people get hurt in some way. When that happens, it's time for society's values to come flying in your face.

I'm tolerant of someone who maybe likes to dance with chickens while eating bananas while dressed as a clown. That's strange, but it's not hurting anyone. When someone starts to rape, murder, mug, or anything else that directly affects a person's wellbeing then it's time to shut them down. There's a lot of leeway with a tolerant attitude, but to allow people to hurt others...that's ALWAYS intolerable, at least in my book. I don't know how someone could allow innocent people to get hurt in the name of being "tolerant." I know I'd pay him a visit to beat some sense into him...I know I wouldn't get in trouble, I'd just be exercising my individuality.
End of quote




Yes, quite true...but in reality not happening...

Take abortion..in every abortion the baby gets hurt to the point of being killed...yet, this practice is sanctioned, premeditated killing of a child to some and a women's "right to choose" to others.

That's why I said that society has degenerated into tolerance of any belief or practice now matter how evil or bizarre. At the heart of all this is moral relativism where something is good and true to one while not good or true to another.

Without adherance to absolute standards, this is a set up for chaos and we are seeing it happen all around us.


SInce this is an article on Evolution, I would suggest that abortion is a social consequence of Evolution. It goes like this:

We dispose of unwanted animals like cats and dogs. If humans are just evolved animals why not terminate an unwanted pregnancy? The justification lies in moral relativism....isn't "choosing" a mother's right? Why not, if adults or society will benefit?


Reply #90 Top

We dispose of unwanted animals like cats and dogs. If humans are just evolved animals why not terminate an unwanted pregnancy? The justification lies in moral relativism....isn't "choosing" a mother's right? Why not, if adults or society will benefit?

Evolution is not related to abortion.  No, no, no, no.  Abortion is a human decision, not a natural one(miscarriages on the otherhand might well be).  Killing for the purpose of killing is not evolution...even disposing of unwanted pets is not evolution, it's just human action. 

Besides, abortions have been happening long before evolution was put forth into study.  You think the first time anyone ever tried to terminate a pregnancy was after Charles Darwin got back?

 

The Bible doesn't condemn abortion, really. 

Exodus 21:22-25- 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

So, basically if the fetus dies you pay a fine and that's all.

In fact, life seems to be defined by taking a first breath. Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Even so, I'm not fan of abortion in the slightest.

~Zoo

Reply #91 Top
The Bible doesn't condemn abortion, really.
Exodus 21:22-25- 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
So, basically if the fetus dies you pay a fine and that's all.
End of quote


REally? That's how you're reading this passage? The fine comes as a result of an early delivery. Life for life is demanded here for a baby who dies. The law of retaliation applied here.

So either you have a really bad case of reading comprehension or you (most likely) didn't read this at all. Zoo, how can you be so sure scripture is wrong when you haven't taken the time to really read it and digest it? How do you know?

The 'hurt' you refer to has always been around, always part of human society. It is unfortunate but it is a fact. I believe the only reason it feels like it is worse today is because bad news sells (and this is a whole other blog). But I'm sure you know what I mean.
End of quote


Yes, it has always been around from the get go. In fact when I'm asked if I ever believe there will be peace on earth I say no. There were four people on earth and yet there was one recorded murder. I don't beieve we will have peace until the Prince of Peace gets here to show us how.

Reply #92 Top

Life for life is demanded here for a baby who dies. The law of retaliation applied here.

I believe the subject of this sentence is "the pregnant woman"  so when they're talking about serious injury, they are talking about the injury to the woman.  As in, "if two men hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, and the woman has no serious injury..."  It does not specify serious injury to the child/fetus/baby or anything like that.  So either it's talking about the woman who is the subject of the sentence or whoever wrote this was really, really, really bad with sentence structure and subject clarity.

Here's a different translation of the same passage: If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life...etc.

Yet no mischief follow...certainly not a very specific phrase. The verse advocates a life for a life, yet no penalty aside from perhaps a fine for a baby forced out of the womb. If it coincides with breath as the beginning of life...then there's nothing to go on.

~Zoo

Reply #93 Top

I don't beieve we will have peace until the Prince of Peace gets here to show us how.

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. Matthew 10:34-39

Right...peace.

~Zoo

Reply #94 Top
"her fruit departs from her." Better her fruit comes out alive...not dead. In this case a fine was levied. If the baby died, then the law of retailiation applied like I said. The law of retaliation limited the punishment to fit the crime. If a life is taken, a life has to be substituted for it.

I say God is pro-choice. He tells us to "choose life." Deut 30:15-19.

Reply #95 Top
I say God is pro-choice. He tells us to "choose life."
End of quote


Ah...so he is pro-choice. Well, there ya go. He leaves it up to us.

~Zoo
Reply #96 Top
By the way, a couple asides:

Evolution articles get a hell of a lot visitors.

I think we've run through more religion than science...how odd. :P

~Zoo
Reply #97 Top
Um, yay science!
Reply #98 Top
Um, yay science!
End of quote


At least you're trying and I respect that.  :CONGRAT: 

~Zoo
Reply #99 Top
Zoo posts #85
Think of it this way, what would scare someone into submission more? Getting punished for awhile in prison or damning your soul to hellfire for all eternity? If you were a leader, wouldn't you want to push the latter to scare people off from doing stupid crap and to do that you would establish a national religion such as England did or promote it heavily in America's case.
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In Christianity, it's not about control, ie scaring into submission, of its followers in the way that you are describing here. A religious man knows that God is his Father, and he serves as a child of God from motive of love, love which casts off servile fear without diminishing filial respect. The same could be applied to the love of a child for his parents. He obeys them not out of fear to be punished if he goes wrong, but because of his love for them.

Also in the State we have laws and policemen. But it is absurd to say that no citizen is good except through dread of law and that the police are necessary to keep every single one of us on the path of doing good.
Reply #100 Top
Lula posts:
SInce this is an article on Evolution, I would suggest that abortion is a social consequence of Evolution. It goes like this:

We dispose of unwanted animals like cats and dogs. If humans are just evolved animals why not terminate an unwanted pregnancy? The justification lies in moral relativism....isn't "choosing" a mother's right? Why not, if adults or society will benefit?
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Zoo posts:
Evolution is not related to abortion. No, no, no, no. Abortion is a human decision, not a natural one(miscarriages on the otherhand might well be). Killing for the purpose of killing is not evolution...even disposing of unwanted pets is not evolution, it's just human action.
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Yes, there are basically two world views out there...those who believe in God and those who don't. From those respective beliefs as you well know, opinions about our origins have developed, one being Creation and the other Evolution.

Opinions about origins have profound social consequences and affect the way we think and act. Abortion falls into this category. If we evolved from survival of the fittest, then getting rid of unwanted pregnancies is desirable. TO conquer and exploit weaker people, not only those most innocent in the womb, but beyond, weaker people in businesses, and countries, is just the law of the jungle from which we evolved. Mercy killings, euthanasia, forced sterilizations as is happening in Communist China, and selective breeding of humans, while unpopular with some (like me), would be beneficial in the long run and beneficial to others, if we evolved.

Besides, abortions have been happening long before evolution was put forth into study. You think the first time anyone ever tried to terminate a pregnancy was after Charles Darwin got back?

The Bible doesn't condemn abortion, really.
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Yes, it's true abortions have been around a very long time...but the difference between then and now is that now the barbaric act of abortion on demand is sanctioned as a good thing to do by the State.

But Abortion was consistently condemned by society since the dawn of civilization. Then, Christianity outlawed abortion as early as 90 AD in the Didache. Hammurabi, the Father of Laws condemned abortion in his Code, as did Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine in his Oath.

Also Scripture speaks of innocent blood...Gen. 4:10, God is the Judge and Avenger of innocent blood which cried from earth to heaven.


And some people of the Evolution persuasion think we are progressing....progressing towards what, I ask?