Zoologist03 Zoologist03

Fabulous Bit about Evolution

Fabulous Bit about Evolution

Found this site: http://skeptoid.com/ and here's a nice little transcript from it that I came across.  This is written/spoken by Brian Dunning.  It's good.


 

Some creationists may be concerned that some of their standard arguments against evolution sound dismissive or patronizing. This is probably true: in any debate, it's common to frame your opponent's arguments in a weak light. Sometimes this is done deliberately to make evolution sound ridiculous, and sometimes it's done accidentally through ignorance of what evolution is and how it works. Since misinformation and ignorance are poor platforms on which to build any conversation, I present the following Evolution 101 Primer for the benefit of creationists who want a correct basic understanding of their foe. I think the best way to do this is to dispel the three most common evolution myths.

Myth #1: Men evolved from apes.

This is the oldest and wrongest misconception about evolution. Nobody has ever suggested that one species changes into another species. Some criticisms of evolution show illustrations that fraudulently purport to show what evolutionists claim: that a salmon changed into a turtle, which changed into an alligator, which changed into a hippo, which changed into a lion, and then into a monkey, and then into a human being. Of course such a theory would seem ludicrous. But it's pure fantasy and has nothing in common with real evolution.

The diversification of species is like a forest of trees, sprouting from the proverbial primordial soup. Many trees die out. Some don't grow very tall. Some have grown a lot over the eons and are still growing today. Trees branch out, and branches branch out themselves, but branches never come back together or combine from two different trees. The path of a species' evolution is shaped like the branch of a tree, not a donut, not a figure 8, not a ladder. To embrace evolution, you need not — must not — think that a salmon turns into a zebra, or that an ape turns into a man. It's simply not genetically possible.

We've all seen the other famous illustration, where a monkey morphs into an ape, that morphs into a caveman, that morphs into homo sapiens. If you climb back down the tree branch, you will indeed find earlier versions of man where he was smaller, hairier, and dumber, but it won't be a modern ape. To find a modern ape, you'd need to go even further down the tree, millions and millions of years, find an entirely different branch, and then follow that branch through different genetic variants, past numerous other dead-end branches, past other branches leading to other modern species, and then you'll find the modern ape. Never the twain shall meet.

Myth #2: Evolution is like a tornado in a junkyard forming a perfect 747.

This is a popular manifestation of the argument that evolution depends on randomness, and so it would be impossible for complex structures to evolve. Well, this is half right, but completely wrong in its totality. Random mutations are one driver of evolution, but this argument completely omits evolution's key component: natural selection.

Obviously, in reality, if a tornado went through a junkyard, you'd end up with worse junk, not a perfect 747. No evolutionary biologist, or any sane person, has ever claimed that you would. It's ridiculous. The tornado is meant to represent the random element of evolution, but genes don't mutate catastrophically all at once, like a tornado. Here is a more accurate way to use this same analogy.

Imagine millions of junkyards, representing any given population. Now imagine a group of welders, who walk carefully through each junkyard, twisting this, bending that, attaching two pieces of junk here, cutting something apart there. They do it randomly and make only a limited number of small changes. Sometimes they don't change anything. This is a far more accurate representation of how genes mutate within an organism. It's not a single cataclysmic tornado.

Now comes the natural selection. Let's test every piece of junk in every junkyard. Does anything work better? Does anything work worse? With millions of changes in millions of junkyards, it's inevitable that there will be some improvements somewhere. Part of natural selection is the eventual removal from the population of any organisms that are less well adapted, so to simulate this, we're going to eliminate all the junkyards where the junk was worse after the welders made their mutations. This leaves only junkyards that are stable, or that are improved. To simulate the next generation of the species, we replicate all of our current improved gene pool of junkyards, and again send in the welders. They make a few random changes in each, or no changes at all.

Each time this entire process happens, the population of junkyards improves. But this doesn't happen just a few times. It happens millions or billions of times. The changes made by the welders are countless. The vast majority of changes are either useless or make things even junkier. Since natural selection automatically filters out the poorly adapted junkyards and rewards those rare improved junkyards with additional procreation, our population of junkyards gets better and better. Things start to take shape in the junkyards. Useful things. Stronger things. Things with abilities that nobody could have predicted. Any given piece of junk that improves is replicated in many junkyards, and reappears in millions of slightly altered forms each time. Pick the best version from each generation, and you can literally watch the same piece of junk evolve into a better, stronger, more useful, and better adapted machine with more capabilities. This is evolution.

Myth #3: Evolution is just a theory.

First of all, if you believe that most biologists consider evolution to be "just a theory", you're behind the times. Almost all biologists call it a fact, and not because they feel any particular need to respond to creationists.

Second, when creationists try to put evolution down by dismissing it as "just a theory", they're actually acknowledging its scientific validity. To understand why, it's necessary to understand exactly what a theory is. When creationists use the term to disparage evolution, they really should be using the word hypothesis. A hypothesis is a provisional idea, a suggested explanation that requires validation. Evolution is well beyond that stage, though; even the staunchest anti-evolution creationists assign evolution the much higher status of theory.

In order to qualify as a theory, evolution had to meet the following criteria:

  • A theory must originate from, and be well supported by, experimental evidence. It must be supported by many strands of evidence, and not just a single foundation.
  • A theory must be specific enough to be falsifiable by testing. If it cannot be tested or refuted, it can't qualify as a theory.
  • A theory must make specific, testable predictions about things not yet observed.
  • A theory must allow for changes based on the discovery of new evidence. It must be dynamic, tentative, and correctable.

Notice that last one: tentative, correctable, and allowing for future changes. Creationists often point out that the theory of evolution is incomplete, like any theory, as if this disproves it. To be a theory, evolution must be incomplete by definition, and (no pun intended), constantly evolving.

The strict scientific definition of a fact is both simpler and hazier. A fact is a verifiable observation, and evolution is verified so many times throughout the entire science of biology that most biologists call it a fact. However many scientists contend that every fact has some element of theory to it, so in this sense, it doesn't really make any difference whether evolution is called a fact or a theory. Since biologists are always learning more and adding to our knowledge of evolution, it's probably best to leave it as a theory.

I hope some creationists find value in these explanations.


Now that was a very well put together explanation.

~Zoo

21,537 views 102 replies
Reply #26 Top

well then you don't know the difference between a religionist (like a Pharisee who knows it all) and a fundamentalist.
End of quote


I do.


I consider myself a fundamentalist.
End of quote


I know. The quote was about you.


The more I know and learn, the more I realize how much I DON'T know.
End of quote


That's brilliant, KFC. But that is the opposite of fundamentalism; if that is what you are doing.

For example, learning about things that are faith is not learning knowledge. Belief in G-d is not knowledge. Belief in Jesus is not knowledge. And learning about either will not increase the information you have about the world.

A smart man will realise that he cannot know everything and will thus resort to faith for the remaining answers. But a stupid man will not know the difference between faith and knowledge and replace more and more of what he could know with belief.

Religion tells us what our own eyes cannot tell us. It is NOT a replacement for rational thought.


Like I said....he got it wrong.
End of quote


No, KFC, the quote is completely true. It is you who are wrong about what constitutes knowledge.

Reply #27 Top

A smart man will realise that he cannot know everything and will thus resort to faith for the remaining answers. But a stupid man will not know the difference between faith and knowledge and replace more and more of what he could know with belief.

Religion tells us what our own eyes cannot tell us. It is NOT a replacement for rational thought.

Bingo.  The smart man will try to find the answers and expand his knowledge of the world.  The stupid man will resort to religion and only religion to explain the world, in essence understanding nothing about the world in which he lives except for the stories he(or others) fills his head with.  Things like the sun revolves around the earth, the earth is flat, disease caused by spirits...you see, if people went back to those fundamental beliefs we would still be ignorant of reality.

~Zoo

Reply #28 Top
Just getting your article up on my radar. Be back later with some ideas.
Reply #30 Top
Wow. It's all either religion or politics here, isn't it?

Attention all evolution bashers:

All Zoo is saying is not to count anything out. Why couldn't there be a way to unite both God and Science? Why is that not a possibility? There's too much archaeological evidence to disprove evolution, but too much spiritual evidence to disprove the existence of God. Why can't we all just get along?


Good grief. At least the Evolution supporters here will accept the possibility of a "divine intervention." And by here, I mean on Joe User. :D
Reply #31 Top
Perhaps one of the best quotes that I have found from theological discussion on the debate about creationalism vrs evolution that has specific references to Genesis is this:

"In matters that are so obscure and far beyond our vision, we find in Holy Scripture passages which can be interpreted in very different ways without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such cases, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if futher progress in the search for truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it."

What the theologian is saying here is that in passages such as Genesis (particularly the creationist accounts) which don't give exact specific information (how long is a day in God's eyes? When he created the land and the sea and the earth from nothing how did that come about?) it doesnt really matter whether the book describes a historically based scientific event but rather that we learn the religous truths behind the passage: The fact that God created the earth to be good, that sin entered the world through the free choice of man, and that humanity was charged as both ruler and caretaker of the earth. The fact that we are now beggining to discover the events such as the big bang, planet formation, and evolution should not put the faith of the believer under question, but rather enforce the faith that there is a God that can cause such complex events such as this to come about. It is also important to realize that just because we don't take Genesis as litteral fact doesnt mean that the rest of the bible is just symbolic legend. To a Christian Christ's rising from the dead is an acurate historical event and it is considered such because the Gospel's that proclaim this news are not written in a legend format such as Genesis, but rather a documentation from eyewitness accounts and oral history. When you look at the bible you need to study each book inside it individually because each book was written at a different time, by a different author, in a different format (history, legend, song, prayer, philosophical work exct), for a different purpose,and for a different audience. All of this must be taken into consideration before you can draw litteral truth from the bible.

The second part of the above quote the part that I at least feel is the most important, is the fact that if we go ahead and take one interpretation that has little to do with the actual religous truth and base our faith on that we run the risk of ruining the faith that so many creationalists feel that they are trying to protect. The Catholic Church learned this the hard way when they litterally interpreted the line in the bible that states that the earth is the center of God's universe to mean that everything revolved around the sun. Then along came Galileo and the fiasco that resulted only ended in the 1980's (or somewhere around that time) when the Catholic Church finally forgave him after losing alot of face amongst scientists and the faithful. Evolution dosnt need to be like that. We all take for granted that the earth revolves around the sun and there is no shortage of Christians today.

On a side note the author of the quotation that I used to begin this dissertation was not a modern writer by any means of the imagination. In fact the person who wrote this dissertation lived over 1000 years ago in the 300th century and was none other than St. Augustine of Hippo one of the founding fathers of Western Christianity. It's a shame that we as a species seem to commit the mistakes that our forefathers said was wrong to do.
Reply #32 Top
Get rid of all the religion and back to basics. Don't I say that all the time?
End of quote


KFC POSTS:
So Jesus would have been a Fundamentalist not a Religionist.
End of quote


Well, maybe according to your definition...but if you try to think of it this way...does it change..

First, Christianity is a religion of Christ....Christ revealed a religion..In reality and with more precision, Christianity rightly signifies only the religion of Christ correctly and completely presented. The teachings of Christianity which deal with the One True, Infinite God we believe by faith, a supernatural gift of God which enables us to believe without doubting whatever God has revealed.

Religion and the practice of religion in general is a virtue of justice which prompts man to render to God the worship and reverence that is His by right. Objectively, religion is the voluntary acknowledgment of man's dependence on God through acts of homage. Protestantism is a form of the Christian organized religion that you follow.

Get rid of all the religion and back to basics. Don't I say that all the time?
End of quote


Ya, but given this definition you should be able to see how that won't work...the government is trying to get rid of all religion from the public square..education is trying to get rid of religion (Christianity) and the workplace is trying as well....


Morality needs religion.

My life is impossible without religion and religion without belief.

Leauki posts:
For example, learning about things that are faith is not learning knowledge. Belief in G-d is not knowledge. Belief in Jesus is not knowledge. And learning about either will not increase the information you have about the world.
End of quote


Quite frankly what you're saying here just doesn't seem reasonable. I think just the opposite becasue God is the Author of both natural and supernatural truth. The doctrines of faith surpass the truths of human understanding. The doctrines of faith become as indubitable through the evidence of the Divine Authority revealing them as the truths of natural reason and knowledge do through their self-evidence.

In fact faith and reason (knowledge) are helpful to each other. Cardinal Newman said in his Idea of a University, "Faith furnishes facts to the other sciences, which those sciences left to themselves would never teach, and it invalidates apparent facts, which left to themselves, they would imagine."

Zoo touched upon this when he wrote reply #16,

A scientist will be the first to admit what he/she doesn't know. However in this case we know how, we know what, we know where, and we know when. We don't know why or how it first started and there are other details that need defining, but, we're looking into it instead of accepting a story and never questioning it. Science is about finding answers...we don't make up things because we feel like it.
End of quote


There is no doubt whatsoever that the Universe (Cosmos) is still surrounded by a big mystery. Same with many parts of religion. Science may make continual progress with new and interesting facts, but the how and why of them are utterly beyond its range of sight or vision.

Like Newton said, "I know the laws of attraction, but if you ask what attraction is, I really can't tell."

Enough for now, got to go watch the President's state of the Union address. :D 
Reply #33 Top

fact that God created the earth to be good, that sin entered the world through the free choice of man,

So glad you mentioned evil...found some interesting things while reading around:

Isaiah 45:7 God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the LORD do all these things."

Deuteronomy 30:15 God says "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and DEATH and EVIL."

Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be EVIL in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame EVIL against you, and devise a device against you."

Apparently God has quite the evil streak in him.

Morality needs religion.

Not necessarily.  Religion needs morality, but morality can exist without religion.  An atheist can be a downright kindhearted person.  Morality is not dictated by religion, religion is dictated by morality.  Religion can grab hold of, shape, and propogated morals...but it does not own them.

~Zoo

Reply #34 Top
Morality needs religion.
End of quote


no we have enough religions out there Lula. What morality needs is a relationship with Christ. It was the disciples who had a relationship with Christ. The Pharisees had their religion but no Christ. That's where I'm coming from.

Apparently God has quite the evil streak in him.
End of quote


Not exactly Zoo. Included in God's plan are all things (Eph 1:11) though the responsibility for committing sin rests on the creature, not the creator. God allows evil in this world. He could very well have not allowed this to happen at all right from the get go but did allow it. As you read scripture it becomes more and more clear why he allows evil in the world. He didn't desire it, but allowed it.

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you said the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil to give you an expected end." Jer 29:11

Reply #35 Top

He didn't desire it, but allowed it.

He called for some evil things:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Tolerant fella, eh?

~Zoo

Reply #36 Top
Tolerant fella, eh?
End of quote


well he is. What you're doing is pulling scripture out of context with no explanation. Of course a scripture out of context is nothing but a pretext. So where are you getting this? From anti-biblical site that hates God or something?

There is a reason for each and every command God gave and what you put up. It wasn't to hurt them but to stop evil from spreading like wildfire. God's plan was to thwart evil because he set Israel aside for a purpose. The Messiah was to come thru the line of Israel. It was very important to keep this line pure and not go instinct before the time of Christ. That's why the geneologies are so prevalent all thru scripture to prove this to be true.

Sin is compared to leaven or yeast that runs rampant thru a dough. Once it seeps in, it infects the whole congregation. So what you're quoting are the results of going against God's commands for the people of Israel during this time period. I know it might be hard for you to see since you haven't read ALL of scripture but it was all motivated out of love for the people not the other way around.
Reply #37 Top
oh and one more thing Zoo to keep in mind.

To show how motivated this love really was and how far it extended to the whole world, God the Father even put his own son on the cross so that we might live forever if we accept his sacrifice. I noticed that wasn't in your list of complaints.

God is never going to ask more of us than he is first willing to do for us.

Christ said himself..."There is no greater love than one willing to give his life for another." And he proved it. So his love was much greater than any punishment meted out to the evil ones.
Reply #38 Top
From anti-biblical site that hates God or something?
End of quote


Hate is a very strong word...it's more like a dissection of the Bible and the contradictions thereof.

all motivated out of love for the people not the other way around.
End of quote


Ah, killing people out of love...seems a little suspect no matter how you put it.

~Zoo
Reply #39 Top
What morality needs is a relationship with Christ.


So are you saying that Buddhists or Hindus aren't moral people because they don't have a 'relationship' with Christ?
Reply #40 Top

So are you saying that Buddhists or Hindus aren't moral people because they don't have a 'relationship' with Christ?

Well, duh...we're all godless, immoral, demonfolk lest we prescribe to the letter the infallible word of the Bible.

Oh wait...that's right.  We're not.

~Zoo

Reply #41 Top

So are you saying that Buddhists or Hindus aren't moral people because they don't have a 'relationship' with Christ?
End of quote


depends on what your definition of morality is. To be a "good" person from a secular POV? No. I've met many non-Christians who were what we would call " good moral people." I have many friends and relatives that would fit into this category.

But from Jesus' POV he wouldn't have had to die if it were possible we could be "moral" enough would he?

Paul wrote: "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

To God, we have fallen short on the "moral" end of things. But to the world, we can be good enough. The problem is, who makes up the rules? Us? God?



Reply #42 Top
Ah, killing people out of love...seems a little suspect no matter how you put it.
End of quote


At least think about it Zoo. You're really quick to reply and being old enough to be your mom, I've put much thought into this for many years...at least give me something here...LOL.

Ok, how about this to add to what I said and your reply....

If it were in your power to save the world but in order to do that a few must die would it be worth it? Even if you're willing to even give up your own family member in the process to save this world from destruction?

Wasn't there a movie back along that kind of showed us this? Can't think of it but had Liv Tyler in it.
Reply #43 Top

Quite frankly what you're saying here just doesn't seem reasonable. I think just the opposite because God is the Author of both natural and supernatural truth.
End of quote


G-d may be the author of both "natural and supernatural truth", but that doesn't mean we have to believe whatever some book tells us, especially when we can see with our own eyes that we have misunderstood the book (assuming the book is true).

Using reason rather than faith IS reasonable. Faith is a cop-out if the alternative is seeing for oneself, a way for the ignorant to claim intellectual superiority, and a way for those who cannot understand physics and biology to feel that they are smarter than those who can.

Belief when we cannot know is reasonable. Belief when we can know is superstition.

That's what the quote refers to.
Reply #44 Top

Wow. It's all either religion or politics here, isn't it?

Nah, but they do draw the most heat.

Reply #45 Top

If it were in your power to save the world but in order to do that a few must die would it be worth it? Even if you're willing to even give up your own family member in the process to save this world from destruction?

We're talking about God here.  God is all powerful and all knowing according to this Bible thing.  Surely there was a better way to go about things than "kill everyone who's different."  Diplomacy, perhaps?  As an ominicient and all powerful creator who loves his creations so dearly, a lot of people end up dead either directly or indirectly because of God.  Even children are encouraged to be slaughtered at several points in the Bible.  Most notably the first born of Egypt...just to prove a point.  Were all those kids evil?  I doubt it....but when God has a point to prove, damned if He won't kill a few thousand people to get it across.  It's really quite insane...and I suppose is meant to inspire fear in followers, but there isn't supposed to be fear in love...yet God seemingly demands you fear him, not out of respect, but out of the damage he can do to you...while loving you at the same time?  How does that make sense?  "Love me or die!"  Truly a noble individual who only wants what's best for us...and he's not afraid to kill us if he thinks we need killin'. 

~Zoo

Reply #46 Top
God in His wisdom made the fly
And then forgot to tell us why.

— Ogden Nash
Reply #47 Top
Surely there was a better way to go about things than "kill everyone who's different."
End of quote


it's not about "being different." It's all about spiritual warfare. It's either follow God or follow the anti-god. That's really what this all amounts to. Sin travels quickly. I mean think about it in a small sort of way. Think about a classroom of kids. If there were no accountability, no discipline and all the kids can do what they wish, what do you suppose the class would be like in a month's time?

If things aren't nipped in the bud quickly, mayhem results. That's the same thing that was happening in scripture. God was watching over Israel very carefully. This nation was chosen by God for a purpose and a plan that would involve the whole world.

That's why he did what he had to do.
God in His wisdom made the fly
And then forgot to tell us why.
End of quote


Now, that I can agree with.
Reply #48 Top

I mean think about it in a small sort of way. Think about a classroom of kids. If there were no accountability, no discipline and all the kids can do what they wish, what do you suppose the class would be like in a month's time?
End of quote


Some such groups organise. Others do not.

Good point though. I am not aware of any government or tribal order that established itself without a reference to some god or gods.



If things aren't nipped in the bud quickly, mayhem results. That's the same thing that was happening in scripture. God was watching over Israel very carefully. This nation was chosen by God for a purpose and a plan that would involve the whole world.
End of quote


Indeed. But I do wish He would choose another nation for a while.
Reply #49 Top
Lula posts:
Morality needs religion.



Zoo posts:

Not necessarily. Religion needs morality, but morality can exist without religion. An atheist can be a downright kindhearted person. Morality is not dictated by religion, religion is dictated by morality. Religion can grab hold of, shape, and propogated morals...but it does not own them.
~Zoo
End of quote


You were making a fairly good argument until you said morality is not dictated by religion, religion is dictated by morality.

Where do we get our ordering of moral conduct if not from religion?

If religion is not the basis of morality, what is?

As to the example of the atheist. Everyone does some good sometime, but the deeper question is where then does the atheist get his morals of right from wrong if not from religion? It's not utility, not pleasure, not legal sanctions, not public opinion, it's God alone.



Lula posts:
Morality needs religion.


KFC POSTS:

no we have enough religions out there Lula.
End of quote


Agree...we have enough religions out there...and imo, to figure this out, we have to distinguish between true religion and false religion or ir-religion. True religion is necessary for it is the road, not always comfortable, to never ending eternal happiness.

By religion, I mean that act of justice by which we render to God, both privately as individuals and publicly as social beings the honor, gratitude, and obedience due Him, and IN THE WAY PRESCRIBED BY HIM.

Is the religion of Islam in the way prescribed by Him? Imo, no. How about Buddhism? IMO, no. Is the man that goes it alone, has no religion, the way prescribed by Him? IMo, no.



Reply #50 Top
What morality needs is a relationship with Christ. It was the disciples who had a relationship with Christ.
End of quote


Agree 100%.

It was also Christ's Apostles and disciples who established Christainity, the Christian religion.

A morality divorced from God, the Author of the moral law, cannot be sustained is the point. Cardinal Mercier said something which goes to this discussion....

"It is a vain hope to expect the moral law to be observed without recourse to the idea of GOd. For how is the observance of the moral law to be sufficiently guraanteed, if man has no certitude that a Just and Powerful God will sooner or later establish an eternal harmony between virtue and happiness on the one hand, and between vice and misery on the other?"

fact that God created the earth to be good, that sin entered the world through the free choice of man,

ZOO posts: So glad you mentioned evil...
End of quote


It is submission to God that makes a man good, rebellion to God that makes him evil.