Z71 Z71

Never Mind

Never Mind

Removed by me. Didn't want to upset anyone.

Edit:

It was never my intention to harm Wincustomize or the community.

The matter has been discussed, by Zoomba and I, with a very "agreeable" compromise.
Thank you.
40,450 views 147 replies
Reply #26 Top

Hey guys, lets all be friends here. This is a skinning community and anything interesting happening we want to hear about.

Skinning is good - sharing is better   

Reply #27 Top
I can only hope that some clarity is provided here and in the TOS in the near future.

I share the concerns about both the spam question and the valuation of the Master program (as it relates to selling skins).

Until then, as long as the discussion remains polite (excepting a few posts) and on topic, I suggest the the conversation continue as it can only add valuable arguments both for and against any policies.

Having said all that . . if I see a glut of ads this weekend . . heads will roll!
 
Reply #29 Top

Having said all that . . if I see a glut of ads this weekend . . heads will roll!
End of quote

Can I advertise myself? I'm a bit used but fairly inexpensive...   

Reply #30 Top
The crux of my angle is that an individual's constructive involvement in a community, be it skinning or otherwise, would afford that individual the benefit of mentioning his or her accomplishments, whether for profit or otherwise. If that community is part of your life then why wouldn't you share your achievements with others?
End of quote


Chet this is basically candy coating the fact that you are using someone elses customers and bandwidth for personal and commercial gains.. whats the saying?

If it walks like a duck and quack like a duck?

As I've said before.. being promoted to Master status and being afforded the opportunity to sell your skins to a couple of million folks a month.. that exposure is payment for being an interactive and contributive member of the community.

I can almost garuantee Stardock will agree with my point of view on this.. but we shall see.

If I am wrong.. I'll say it.
Reply #31 Top
Can I advertise myself? I'm a bit used but fairly inexpensive...
End of quote


Yes, used goods are indeed often inexpensive...

Reply #32 Top
If I am wrong.. I'll say it.
End of quote
And I'll rub your nose it it daily.  Someone needs to be taken down a peg or two.     
Reply #33 Top

Before this goes any further, I want to step in and say this.

Z71 has emailed me about this thread.  The matter will be handled between him and myself.  I will not stand for this thread turning into any sort of flame fest.  If anyone has a problem with this, they should PM or email me.

Edit: Also, to make this easier in the future, I'm going to be working on some TOS updates to clarify stuff like this in the future.  It'll help make sure.

Sorry if this seemed abrupt, but it just looked like emotions were starting to run high, I didn't want this turning into a major fight when it doesn't need to be.

Reply #34 Top

As I said, people should be nice to each other. We are all interested in skinning, and are all friends   

BTW, I'm still available second-hand    

Reply #35 Top
As I said, people should be nice to each other.
End of quote

I thought we were   
Reply #36 Top
Yeah, it just became a rather interesting and perhaps somewhat lively subject... but never ill-intended from what I gathered.

John's like the brother i never wanted but enjoy having around just to poke.

Anyways, I was just coming from a skinner/community-member side of things. I don't own a skinning business; don't have my own website; don't mod these forum and am not a Master skinner, so i speak only of my own experience within the community itself.

In addition, not all advertising is spamming. By definition, only disruptive and unsolicited advertising is considered SPAM. A community-member's advertising (in-context) isn't exactly unsolicited if he/she has a sympathetic audience, which I'd say most skinners, including vStyler himself does.

Reply #37 Top
Zoomba didn't say the conversation couldn't continue (nor did he lock the thread).  If anyone has anything to share . . the floor is still open.
Reply #38 Top
 
the floor is still open.
End of quote


Care to dance?   
Reply #39 Top
Don't make me go find that dancing Queen image!   
Reply #40 Top

Chet's comment in #25 sums things up pretty nicely.

Technically there's no specific TOU policy regarding Master/commercial use re 'advertising' personal sites/sales.... but I feel the suggestion such would be 'spamming' is wrong.

Spamming requires a continuation/flood/series of such advertising/notifications....so at this stage a person notifying others on the Forums of a new 'commercial' skin sourced offsite is still skinning-specific [as is Jorge's [JCRabbit] for Winstep].

So, that said, Z71's post [I missed it before it was altered] would not currently be an issue as it too classifies as 'skinning news'.

This may be amended as and when it is demonstrated as a preferred option that those who DO achieve the level/privilege of selling works on Wincustomize undertake not to cross-advertise offsite works.

This of course will be something to be determined directly by Stardock, though open discussion is welcome here, too...

Reply #41 Top
So, that said, Z71's post [I missed it before it was altered] would not currently be an issue as it too classifies as 'skinning news'.
End of quote


What an interesting discussion this is...

So.. your saying that Stardock would not be opposed to posting a "skin for sale" off site by a WC master skinner because it falls under "skinning news"?

If yes.. then The Master skinner program may as well be terminated..

I posted earlier because I have self imposed a limit on what I will do as far as bringing traffic from WC to my own site..Naturally, anyone with half a glass of business sense would rather have 100% profit rather than split those profits with another entity that is providing exposure.. The Master Program is just that, in it's simplest terms... Exposure..in return for a % of profit. Seems like letting folks use WC as their own private classified ad would cut out much of the motivation behind attaining Master status would it not?

If any skinner can post their wares here without paying the obligatory piper then why wouldn't they? The difference could be in the tens of thousands of dollars yearly. Thats not peanuts.

I stand by what I've said all through this thread.. If Stardock allows this after an ammended TOS, I'll be shocked.

I look forward to clarification that is clear and void of ambiguity.
Reply #42 Top
The Master Program is just that, in it's simplest terms... Exposure..in return for a % of profit.
End of quote
The Master program is so much more than selling skins John.  The master program is about being the leaders of the community.  It's about setting a bar taht others can strive for.  Selling work is an earned right that happens to go along with it.
I know you know that.

I don't beleive Stardock doesn't want you, or any Master, to be successful.  Your success is partly their success though visability for both parties and sales of apps and skins.  Everyone can win here.
Reply #43 Top
Hmmm.. interesting discussion Don't mind me I am just reading it.
Reply #44 Top
I posted earlier because I have self imposed a limit on what I will do as far as bringing traffic from WC to my own site..
End of quote


A self-imposed limit is just that and does not extend to others, else it's not a valid statement. Just because a rule applies to one individual does not mean that that individual has an official mandate to apply it to others. Aside from "suggesting" or offering one's opinion there is little else one can do. On the other hand, imposing it on others becomes a whole different ball game.

As I understand it, the Master Skinners program is offered as an optional avenue for skinners to employ and profit from when distributing their skins. No skinner is obligated to use it and their decision not to do so should not have a negative impact on their status within the community or their ability to showcase their work in a respectful and acceptable manner to the community. Sure it may at times seem silly for one to not take advantage of such an opportunity it but that depends on the individual and how they conduct their business, if it is indeed a business.

From a business point of view, it would seem the program is offered as an additional, but not primary source of revenue. It's an encouragement rather than mandate, and a perk of being an active part of the community rather than being a job.
By doing that, the business supports the skinning community as well as supporting the viability of the program itself. As Zubaz said, it's a win-win situation for both the community and the business.
In addition, reiterating my earlier statement, just by selling skins whether on Wincustomize or on your own personal sites, you're promoting the product itself. That should not be overlooked.

The main point of all this is that a good skinner who can bring and retain a committed audience by their active participation in and without the community, as both Z71 and John do, should have the opportunity to showcase their work to those who watch their progress.
As long as that is done within the accepted parameters of courtesy and common-sense as well as the adherence to the site's known rules, it should flow smoothly for everyone. Of course outside of this it's up to the hosts to provide guidance and moderation where necessary.
Reply #45 Top
im confused (and i read the whole thing) are you allowed to advertise that you have another site? what about when John puts the maxstyles logo on his skins?...is that okay? i want clarification too.......i know we had a whole post for when maxstyles came out, advertising that it was here (and i was part of the team at that time)...... so yeah, im confused....  

I sort of got the feeling it was cool to let people know you had a site, cause we are all part of a skinning community....you kind of take your fans with you, but at the same time you stay here also.......(shrugs)


also, another question pops into my head concerning maxstyles (dont take this the wrong way John, cause it AINT personal)

how come when a maxstyles skin is released here, its called a 'community skin' when the majority of the work is done by people who work for john and get paid for it..... i thought a community skin was done by a group of people who get together and work on a skin, do it for free, and submit it. sorry......gotta know this one.........
Reply #46 Top
how come when a maxstyles skin is released here, its called a 'community skin' when the majority of the work is done by people who work for john and get paid for it..... i thought a community skin was done by a group of people who get together and work on a skin, do it for free, and submit it. sorry......gotta know this one.........
End of quote


Err I feel I need to address this one. I believe I speak for all Maxstyles team that we do not work for John and he did not pay us anything. Taking my latest Whitefire2 Windowblinds as example, I did not get a single cent out of it and I don't think anybody else who produce skin to go with it get anything either other than enjoy sharing our work with the community . I believe that is a "community skin". No?
Reply #47 Top
I wasnt reffering to your skin Bas.............
Reply #48 Top
WindowBlinds SkinPack Now Available from SkinPlant:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=38174

Universe Metal:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=37504

Pixtudio does it again !:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=38281

Pixtudio release new exclusive suite, PixOS:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=37877

Just because someone less intellgent making fuss,doesn't mean Z71 or other senior memebers should follow suit. I was disappointed that even 2 Admins didn't know above threads,although that time doesn't has "Master" status yet for sale on indivisual skins.
Reply #49 Top
The second that financial gain via the Master Program was introduced to skinning, the dynamics changed. The terms of service should be altered to keep the Master program in control and working in the best interest of the community and WC subscribers.

Allowing people to advertise (no matter what it is)is not even a slippery slope. It's a direct road to failure IMHO.

"Foot in the door" techniques of advertising are just sitting their waiting to get in once the door is open. People will resort to the lowest of lows when it comes to making money and to be honest, I don't trust any single one of you when it comes to business.




 




Reply #50 Top
Just because someone less intellgent making fuss,
End of quote


Less intelligent? As far as I can see, no one here has shown themselves to be more or less intelligent than anyone else. Pretty much everyone has contributed constructively and respectfully, albeit perhaps somewhat passionately at times. There's no need to resort to bringing anyone down or questioning their intelligence.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and comments but please keep it civil. Thanks.