not to try and detract from either of the "warring" factions in this thread, but honestly, does it truly matter? it's one skin on a site full of thousands, the title of this thread is Never Mind, so why is it that people are minding? i feel bad for z71, because he's done nothing but try to clean up his mistake, and now it's become this mangled pile of posts.

talking about create suites can be done without talking about it in forums they can (and i'm sure they do) talk about them share ideas on msn emails for example.. it's still a community work even if it's a team work.

oh okay, so next time av man wants to do a halloween community skin, he dosent have to ask the forum for help, he can just choose an annointed little group of people, and do the skin, then submit it as a community skin...

is that what your saying quentin?..............GIVE ME STRENGTH

im so sick of this being ignored and swept under the carpet like im a raving lunatic. Why am I always the one will balls to hold the fight for a cause that has been overlooked and obviously
unoticed by the community.


[/quote]



Harmony was not free......... yet it was promoted as a community skin, *for the community by the community* no. it was a maxstyles skin, by people who are part of the maxstyles team, not the community.

to me, it is advertising.

Locked.
Thanks for playing.

Post locked by me as the matter has been resolved and the topic has strayed.

That was me , and he didn't say no as much as he said they had a Winamp skinner 'on staff'. I gave it up , you'd better too.

This is quite true.

It has only been a fairly short time that Wincustomize.com and its 'Masters' have had the opportunity to sell their works onsite...so the community dynamics will likely be affected.

There was a time [not all that long ago]...on various sites that were Frogboy even to post the most innocent of comment....IF it included the word 'Windowblinds' [or similar] it was decried as 'filthy rotten capitalistic-pig spam'. [I kid you not].

Then on one particular site....a little while later...if Pixtudio dared to post ANY comment it was 'clearly' promoting skin commercialism when "everyone knew" that skinning should be free!!!

It's taken years for it to be 'mostly' accepted that skinning is no different to any other creative enterprise....that is...along with its maturation comes the potential for commercial endeavour.

The more this becomes evident the more it is accepted as the norm.

Here...today...we have one inoccuous thread that has brought the current status quo into question/debate once more.

The only real issue here is A: will onsite promotions of offsite commercial works be detrimental to the Masters' commercial opportunities [and thus also Wincusto's financial gain]?

and

B: will such lead to a proliferation of same which could be termed 'spam'?

The answer to these I believe is 'no'.  Cross-promotion will simply be the 'tide that raises all ships', and any threat of degeneration into 'spam' that may be seen as unwelcome within the community/forum can be 'moderated' by the Admins as is currently done with the genuinely unwarranted spam [eg Nike runners, etc].

The value of this thread is hearing from affected/concerned fellow skinners [of all rankings].

But...

Let's talk about skin commercialism and its advertising onsite...not about what may/may not classify as a 'community skin'.  THAT can have its own thread...

I'm unlocking this...as I was in the midst of typing and it looks quite 'odd' as the end of a locked thread....

Kitty has opened the 'divergent' topic in a new thread...so all 'should' be well now with this remaining ontrack....

Please delete the other thread I just started now that this one is re-opened.

So where are we in this debate? Some people seem to be for and some people seem to be against skinners being able to 'advertise' on Wincustomize so where do we go? Let me throw in a suggestion........Lion could get his head bitten off here  ........ Have a moderator in charge of Master Skins and allow anybody to submit skins to this category which they feel are worthy Master Skins. This section would be for commercial work and 'paid for' skins only and the submission can be either by the Skinner or someone who feels the work is worthy of note. The Moderator can then decide if it is indeed that good and can then put it up in the Master Skins gallery.

This way everybody wins and has the same opportunities.

I don't forsee this as an issue for Stardock because the more quality skins that are around for their software, the better.

This already done via the promotions.

I have seen some self professed Masters over the years and believe me when I say they were not even close to making Master quality work.

There are people out there who are not 'Masters' and do better quality work than some of the 'Masters' work that I have seen on that gallery  

for crying out loud! this thread has evolved into a thread of anger faster than any i have seen in recent history. personally, i don't really care if harmony was what some of you folks consider a 'community' skin or not. i bought the thing because i liked it. i saw a few posts regarding harmony where certain skinners asked if they could skin a certain app for harmony and was told there was somebody else already working on one but that he/she could make one if he/she wanted to. i think if somebody wants to skin an app to match a certain blind, the skinner who made the original blind should have final say as to whether or not the secondary skin gets released. it doesn't matter if the original skinner is pixelpirate, dani, mike, hippy, vstyler, snowman, treetog, nighttrain, or anyone else. the original skiiner should have some input concerning the quality of the secondary skin since it's his/her images and ideas that are being used.

personally, i don't see a problem with z71 posting here about his suite. that is my opinion. but thten again, i dont' 'see how anyone can justify lamblasting vstyler the way it has been done in this thread. i'd say the same thing if it was nighttrain, pixel, dani, fairry, kittymalone, bug, snowman, treetog, wom, or anyone else who might be on the receiving end of this foolishness. the personal attacks are completely out of line and need to stop.

Read what I said again. "There's nothing wrong with advertising, but there's a time and place and I don't believe this messageboard is it"

What I said was personal opinion (I'm allowed to have one, aren't I...?) and has nothing to do with site policy on who or what is allowed, that is nothing to do with me   

Ok. I've spent some amount of time thinking this through. And, the answer I come up with is - as it is being applied here in skinning - WC and Stardock will likely benefit from cross-promotion. This is because Z71's site and MaxStyles site or any other skinning site will also have to refer their site traffic back to WC. How else will new customers obtain needed software? I think the logical inference is valid. So, the remaining question does the WC community benefit? Yes. More traffic. More and better products and more skins. There will also be more competition to produce high quality skins and skinners will likely want to skin more. Available evidence, so far, WC is growing. Follow the NET model promote everywhere you can.

This was a very interesting thread. It got away, a few times, but stayed pretty much on topic. That's good.
Hopefully, everyone's a little calmer and has thought about it for awhile.
---------------
Well, since I started this thread, I might as well finish it and update everyone on a few things that were resolved.

First off, let me say that I didn't intentionally try to alienate Wincustomize. Being a Master, in the community, is an honor
and I entend to respect that honor.

I recieved several e-mails from Stardock and will share just a few tidbits that will better explain things and hopefully help others,
in the future.

Before I get into the meat of this, let me make one thing perfectly clear. In the e-mails I recieved, not one single time
were they upset that I did it. Others had done it in the past and now, so I didn't see any harm (at the time).
They did suggest, rather nicely I might add, * "We would prefer to see our masters post
skins for sale through our system. However, we know that isn't necessarily reasonable in all cases" *.
Now, does this mean that every premium skin I create I have to upload here? Of course not. We're not joined at the hip.
But the exposure doesn't hurt. Now if Stardock were to hire me....but that's another story.

* "Pulling the thread after the initial reaction probably brought even more attention to it than would have otherwise existed" *.
This is truth. All the attention was drawn because I pulled it. My intention was just to let people know it was ready. I had posted
a screenshot of a WIP, in the "What are you working on?" thread and decided to let people know.

Now, was all this handled correctly? Of course not. Past experience tells us that. What should have happened was for someone to e-mail
an Admin., Mod. or even me, and explained why they thought it was wrong. Let them take care of it. That's there job.
But alas, this is the internet. We can't wait. We need results now.

Is what I did "spam"? NO! And Jafo explained that pretty well, I think. This was my first (and last) time to do it. Again, I was just
letting people know. But I get tagged with spam. Now, I'll forever be known as (loud baratone voice) "The master who spammed the forums". Nice.
-----------
Off topic, for a sec..How many times did MaxStyles get mentioned, in this thread? "Dozens". Now, how many time did GUI Magic
get mentioned, besides now? "0". Guess, it looks like I need to do a whole lot more promoting.
Even Zubaz, thinks I'm Z "2" 1 (more than once by the way) and not Z71. Need to promote myself, too, I see.
-----------
On topic. I recieved alot of nice suggestions on how to do things in the future. And no, I'm not cutting Wincustomize out of the loop.
I'll still be uploading "free" and "premium" skins to the site. That will never change. But that doesn't mean I can't have exclusive
skins, just on my site. I'm running a business. I would like people to get stuff from me, every now and then. That's why you'll
never see any adds on my site. Don't want them and I'll guess, neither do you.
Skinning use to be just for fun. But because the market changed, now it's an ever growing business. A fun business, but none the
less. It's about making some money, now and then, for all the hard work over the years.
If anyone ever tells you that's it's never about the money, they just do it for fun.....they're lying. If it's just for fun, then I challenge
you to never upload a premium skin...ever. Because it's just for fun, right? Yeah, and if you pull my other leg, confetti comes out my @ss.
Why do you think Stardock created Object Desktop? Just for fun? If that were true, they'd be giving it away, right?

But I digress, Wincustomize is my home skinning site and I'll continue to contribute any way I can, in one form or another.
If you have any comments or suggestions, my e-mail (door) is always open.

Take care,....

Good Post Z.. this was supposed to have beeen posted here last night but with all the BS going on I mis-posted it.. I am re-posting here in case you never read it.
--------------------------------

What concerned me initially was I assumed it would have been unacceptable to Stardock as frankly it would indeed cut into their profits.. via their bandwidth and patronage. More traffic to outside sites equates to less Master skin sales.. from what I have read today It seems for some reason I'm clueless about .. that this is not an issue?

I for one will stand by my guns and even if it is instituted as an accepted practice I will not, I repeat, will not post articles with skins for sale in the WC forums unless a specific category was put in place for that ( wont happen ) If it was DA.. sure.. the place is a mess..My subscription will soon expire there and I have no desire to re-up it.

I call these forums home, I like it here and I'm not going to use it to pander to folks that are here to read up on day to day skinning activity. Forums should be forums and a store a store. We all knew this topic was going to come up sooner or later and I'm glad it did. I hope that by not participating in direct promotion of pay skins in the forums that others will decide not to as well, I've always stood by what I believe is a strong conviction and I don't see any reason to abandon that now for a few more bucks.

WC has afforded me an enormous opportunity to better myself and I have done everything in my power to jump at the chance, I hope that my work can speak far louder than my words and that in the end doing the right thing (IMO) will pay off.

Lastly I apologize to Z71 for being harsh early on.. it just struck a cord with me. I assumed you were trying to be sneaky when in fact you probably hadn't thought into it as much as I have.

Sorry..
WWW Link

vStyler, from my view, there shouldnt be a problem with posting on the forums when you are in the process of releasing a Master Skin.  There *is* a "New Releases" section in the General Discussion forum, in which can be found many links to programs that are being sold.  I dont see anything wrong with a forum posting, however I dont necessarily think that it will get positive vocalization from the community, as the individuals who are the most vocal against 'skins 4 sale' will become a nuisance quite quickly.

Nice post Z71. Personally, I'd like to see you and others do more self promoting work as long as it's done in a manner which is tasteful and acceptable to the community. Hell, many of you guys do some great stuff and we all want to know about it. What's the point in hiding your work.Isn't this what it's all about. What do they say - 'If you've got it, flaunt it'.....and you and many others have 'got it' and you create masterful pieces which are enjoyed by a huge audience around the world that have a huge hunger to feed.........Everyone can be a winner here.....skinners, the skinning community and the software makers...........

I'd like to pick John up on his DA sentiments. Yep, DA can be a mess and we only know too well that their admin is nightmare after the experiences with 'Jack the Ripper' but nowhere is perfect and whether anyone likes it or not DA is a huge player in the Customization World and in Art in general. There are some fantastic artists in the Customization world over there too. It has a huge following/audience and should not be ignored otherwise - as they say - you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Never a good move.   

I didnt say I'm not going to post there... I'm not re-subscribing. No one is cutting of anything as far as I can see.. and believe it or not less than 2% of my traffic originates from DA.

----------------------------------------

Edit... good estimate eh?    I only checked after I posted the intial comment.




You'll also noticed my second highest referrer.. a year and a half after leaving them is still TGTsoft.. I'd like to think that by exposing them to my now.. WB..work.. that I am attracting new WB users over to Stardock.

Finally you'll see by far my highest referrer is.. WC... Home.

As they say..........Every little bit helps. Don't underestimate your exposure value at DA and elsewhere........it may be a lot greater than those statistics show