Mumblefratz Mumblefratz

The MVL and the AltMeta

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The MVL and the AltMeta

from GalCiv2 Forums
OK guys, I've tried to bring up this topic of discussion subtly on a number of occasions all for naught. It seems that subtly is lost on the average MVL player, or perhaps put another way, the average MVL player has all the subtly of a ball peen hammer.

Anyway, it’s time to start discussing this directly. By this I mean I would like to get support for the MVL into the AltMeta. Kryo has expressed willingness to do this but wants a solid definition of precisely what it is that we want. This encompasses a number of potential issues.

Certainly at a minimum it would be nice if we have a fancy display of league results that all could view each month on the AltMeta. It would also be nice to be able to see past months results. Finally I’m sure all would like to be able to view these results on a league wide, team wide or individual basis.

Even regarding the "simple" display of league results there are probably very many ways to do this. I know when the Metaverse Council was discussing options relating to AltMeta Classes we found it helpful to sketch up something just for folks to look at, criticize and comment on. I have a couple of ideas that I will sketch up at some point when I get a chance however it would be nice if other folks could come up with a few ideas on their own (hint, hint ).

The next level of complexity that needs some discussion is a method of game submission to the league that could be a little more automated than posting images or words to a thread. As we’ve seen this requires the official scorers to go through a lot of posts for a limited amount of information and there are invariably a few folks that leave off a critical piece of information that then requires the scorer to check the player’s character.

The final level of complexity could involve a well defined set of scoring rules that could allow software to score each round automatically.

Regardless of all of the above there probably would be the need for someone to administer all of this.

Anyway, I hope that the potential of getting MVL support into the AltMeta is of interest to most players and that we can use this thread to decide what it is we want to do.

I do want to forewarn folks that this is not something that can be resolved quickly and easily and it will take folks that are willing to put in a little bit of effort to reach a good solution that we can be proud of and that pretty much everyone agrees on. All too often the attitude that I’ve seen in the League is one of "let’s hurry up and get this over with". If that’s the attitude of most folks then we probably shouldn’t even bother. If so then perhaps I should resurrect the corpses of the Metaverse Council and we should figure out what to do within that framework.   

Everyone should feel free to comment on any and all of these points that I’ve brought up or to bring up any others that they feel are related.

One of the first points I want to discuss is the issue that within the context of all of these MVL threads everyone thinks of MVL members in terms of their username not their character name (i.e. Mumblefratz instead of Toshiro Mifune). Clearly this isn’t that big a deal because I think folks can figure out who is who if required, however one thing to point out is that the AltMeta only knows about character names *not* user names.

Another point to consider is that it may be beneficial for everyone in the league to commit to join a single metaverse empire such as the MV League that thebutterfly has setup. A number of folks have joined that empire but a number of folks haven’t. It would be good to hear from Kryo if he thinks that would be a benefit and if so whether or not most folks would be willing to do it. If it simplifies things (and I think it would) perhaps we should simply make it a requirement.

So what do you think?
metaverse
82,228 views 182 replies
Reply #51 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The altmeta knows ONLY that Toshiro has two new games, and the various parameters about those games.

The altmeta does not know that Toshiro is owned by a user under the name "Mumblefratz" on this site. We know this ourselves, but that information is flatly not available to the altmeta (it's not in the RSS feeds).
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I still see no issue here. The AltMeta doesn't need to know that Toshiro is owned by Mumblefratz. The software the implements the MVL support needs to know that Mumblefratz is Toshiro and DethAdder is MetaLeaguer and so on. This software doesn't have to determine character ownership from the RSS data it can know simply because we tell it so by setting up a table of users and their characters for everyone in the MVL. This table can be added to over time which would in effect be the main function of an administrator, enter new MVL members and their characters as valid MVL members and distribute the password for the new member to use to make his submission.

This really seems like a simple thing to do and I'm having difficulty understanding why this process seems to be so difficult to communicate.

Perhaps to make this even simpler we could require that all players use their character name as their logon name to whatever forum accounts get setup to handle this. Then the only issue is for Toshiro's password to be sent to me, Metaleaguer's password sent to DethAdder, etc. etc. So then I could just logon as Toshiro Mifune to select a game from Toshiro Mifune to submit for this months MVL game. What could be simpler?

Clearly there would need to be a list of valid characters that are in the league and what team they are on. This is equivilient to the table that I mentioned above.
Reply #52 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thinking out loud here, but can a game be deleted from the AltMeta. I'm sure you can see where i am going with this, simply delete the unwanted games....Though i am expecting a no on this.
Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #53 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thinking out loud here, but can a game be deleted from the AltMeta. I'm sure you can see where i am going with this, simply delete the unwanted games....Though i am expecting a no on this.
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This is unnecessary. The AltMeta as a listing of games is similar to the Metaverse as a listing of games. Both are totally separate from what it is we are trying to do. Deleting games would certainly defeat the purpose of those that perhaps use a normal character for MVL games as well as non-MVL games. There is no need to delete games from the AlMeta simply to support being able to individually submit games to the MVL.

Even if the answer to this question is yes it isn't a good way to go.



Basically the way that I see it is that what we are doing is to simply use the AltMeta as a source of game data for the league display. Just as the AltMeta takes data from the real Metaverse the MVL AltMeta takes data from the AltMeta. The thing is that the MVL AltMeta is an entirely new creature that we can do whatever we want with. Sure it can't extract any more information out of the RSS data than the regular AltMeta can but we can certainly provide it with information that we know in the form of tables that gives it more information that what is available to the AltMeta.
Reply #54 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hmmm not sure if we are on the same page here Mumble. When i say deleting games i mean for example Toshiro submits 3 attempts at the round to the MV. Obviously the AltMeta picks these 3 games up and adds them into the MVL section of the ALtMeta, now with some form of acces or an admin could 2 of those 3 submitted games simple be deleted from the Altmeta "database" for lack of a better word (i am unsure how it all works but you get my meaning), leaving just the desired game for the AltMeta to calculate.

Perhaps i have it all wrong, wouldn't be the first time.
Reply #55 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
ok so...well when u start to think you have a handle on something, you find out that you are still just one of the ignorant masses, but are we ever truly enlightened? lol i digress.

anyhow...alright just the character names are listed, easy enough, MVL members just need to give the administrator(s) their character names for cross-referencing. Since the admin would then know Toshiro is Mumblefratz, all those games are inherently valid at face value. The only thing the administrator wouldn't know is which game is the one that should be counted toward score.

The real issue seems to be the who and how of games are picked for final submission. Mumble wants everyone to have their own password/registration to go in to select their own game, right? And i'm guessing from Kryo that the way the AltMeta is set up, it lacks those kinds of features outside of an actual administrator position (basically a moderator of sorts?), which one wouldn't want to give individually to a large group of individuals. Which is why I think, again I am trying to understand what everyone is saying, gotta love communication, that Kryo only mentioned giving the captains these passwords as it limits to a manageable degree who is able to change/select things in the AltMeta, and limits possible abuse.
Reply #56 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hmmm not sure if we are on the same page here Mumble. When i say deleting games i mean for example Toshiro submits 3 attempts at the round to the MV. Obviously the AltMeta picks these 3 games up and adds them into the MVL section of the ALtMeta, now with some form of acces or an admin could 2 of those 3 submitted games simple be deleted from the Altmeta "database" for lack of a better word (i am unsure how it all works but you get my meaning), leaving just the desired game for the AltMeta to calculate.
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That assumes that the only purpose of my character was to play MVL games. If I have non-MVL games on that character I would be annoyed if they were deleted from being listed in the AltMeta simply to avoid confusion with MVL games. I feel this is unacceptable. If you're suggesting deleting games that have been copied from the AltMeta into a duplicate MVL AltMeta database then that is a different thing entirely but at the moment I feel delving more into that aspect will merely add more confusion than what is already present.

I am waiting for a direct reply from Kryo to my posts in replies #50 and #51 of this thread which I think directly solve this issue. I would prefer to not obsure those two posts by burying them further and further from the most recent replies.
Reply #57 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
ok so...well when u start to think you have a handle on something, you find out that you are still just one of the ignorant masses, but are we ever truly enlightened? lol i digress.

anyhow...alright just the character names are listed, easy enough, MVL members just need to give the administrator(s) their character names for cross-referencing. Since the admin would then know Toshiro is Mumblefratz, all those games are inherently valid at face value. The only thing the administrator wouldn't know is which game is the one that should be counted toward score.

The real issue seems to be the who and how of games are picked for final submission. Mumble wants everyone to have their own password/registration to go in to select their own game, right? And i'm guessing from Kryo that the way the AltMeta is set up, it lacks those kinds of features outside of an actual administrator position (basically a moderator of sorts?), which one wouldn't want to give individually to a large group of individuals. Which is why I think, again I am trying to understand what everyone is saying, gotta love communication, that Kryo only mentioned giving the captains these passwords as it limits to a manageable degree who is able to change/select things in the AltMeta, and limits possible abuse.
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Yes you're on the right track here although I'm not so sure about Kryo's willingness to give 5 people password access versus 25. His reluctance didn't seem to be one of granting access but more one of distribution of passwords to rightful owners, but this is putting words in his mouth that I'm not sure are there. Basically the points I made in replies 50 and 51 directly ask these questions and as I said above I am waiting for a direct response from Kryo before I want to proceed any further into more confusion.
Reply #58 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
That assumes that the only purpose of my character was to play MVL games. If I have non-MVL games on that character I would be annoyed if they were deleted from being listed in the AltMeta simply to avoid confusion with MVL games.
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Yes that is right. If this was possible one could only use their character as a MVL character. Suits me but may not suit anyone else.

Reply #59 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sorry, I haven't been as active in the league for awhile but there were issues in RL that I simply HAD to attend to. And there are still some left...
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I can't guarantee that I fully understand everything that has went on in this thread since I last replied but then again maybe no one does.

If PM's here to specific characters is a secure method for distributing passwords to 5 folks I can't see why the same is not true for 25 people.
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There is a 5 times greater chance of someone among 25 people to abuse another person's character then simply having 5 captains granted access.

I really don't support the idea of games being automatically picked or the non-submissions being deleted.

This really seems like a simple thing to do and I'm having difficulty understanding why this process seems to be so difficult to communicate.
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The AltMeta doesn't know you're Mumblefratz. It doesn't know that Toshiro Mifune belongs to you. To create an account and personally hand-pick your game from your character for the MVL requires the AltMeta to link that character with your account which (maybe) Kryo has said that the AM can't do. That is what I think Kryo has been saying(totally open to corrections).

Now assuming I'm semi-partially correct on the above point there aren't many ways left to go.
Reply #60 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The AltMeta doesn't know you're Mumblefratz. It doesn't know that Toshiro Mifune belongs to you. To create an account and personally hand-pick your game from your character for the MVL requires the AltMeta to link that character with your account which (maybe) Kryo has said that the AM can't do. That is what I think Kryo has been saying(totally open to corrections).
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The problem is that there are too many people saying what they think Kryo has said. I haven't gotten any sense that Kryo has said that the AltMeta can't do this. In fact we're not even asking specifically for the AltMeta to do this we're asking for the software that will implement the display of MVL games to know about this. There is no reason that we can't tell this new software this in a table. It's clear that there does have to be some set of new software that does need some knowledge about the MVL. Clearly there is no knowledge of the owners of characters in the RSS feeds, everyone knows and understands this, there is also no knowledge of the MVL in the RSS feeds either but certainly there does need to be some knowledge of how the MVL works in whatever software is created to support the MVL. To ask that this software understand that Mumblefratz is Toshiro is trivial. The only issue is to make sure that whoever registers as Mumblefratz on Kryo's forum (or wherever) is really me. That's the only issue and that is trivially solved by simply PMing the password to me here. It's also trivial to do this for everyone in the league.

Basically the last handful of posts have done nothing but make guesses about what Kryo meant and have done little but confuse the issue even more. This is the third time that I've mentioned this but I am still waiting for a direct response from Kryo that addresses the things I brought out in posts #50, #51 and again in #57.

Kryo, Please respond to the points I brought out in posts #50, #51 and #57. Everyone else please stop making guesses about what Kryo meant, it's not particularly helpful.
Reply #61 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

If PM's here to specific characters is a secure method for distributing passwords to 5 folks I can't see why the same is not true for 25 people.
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Mainly because it's a lot more work and leaves more room for mistakes. At that point you'd need to go back to having a forum where every user has a static password of their own, and the admin just assigns accounts to characters, but you're right back at square one--you'd need some way to be certain that a person registering under a name there really is the same as the person under that name here, etc, etc.

Remember, one thing we (or at least I) want to achieve with this is to make things as simple, and where possible, automated, as possible so the MVL is more accessible to everyone, and easy enough to maintain that there's less chance of burnout.

Just having the captains do it is much simpler, and far easier to handle and keep secure. Of course if they so desire they can share the password with the team members (they'd have no interest in sabotaging a teammate's selection), but that would be up to them.

Edit: Argh, there's a whole nother page beyond that reply now... reading now.
Reply #62 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The software the implements the MVL support needs to know that Mumblefratz is Toshiro and DethAdder is MetaLeaguer and so on. This software doesn't have to determine character ownership from the RSS data it can know simply because we tell it so by setting up a table of users and their characters for everyone in the MVL. This table can be added to over time which would in effect be the main function of an administrator, enter new MVL members and their characters as valid MVL members and distribute the password for the new member to use to make his submission.
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Yes, it's certainly possible to do it that way (have the admin assign characters to forum users there manually). It's not even hard to do from a coding standpoint (like I've said, my games do something very similar arleady with forum account integration). It just concerns me that it's potentially insecure and could be a lot of work to maintain. This is largely what you indicated in #57.

A possible method of going that route:

1) User registers on AM forum.

2) User sends MVL admin a PM via GC2.com saying which account he signed up as at AM.

3) Admin assigns characters to that account as appropriate.


It's not really much more work for me, but if that's the way you guys want to go, someone needs to be willing to do the dirty work of keeping it up. So the choice is up to you guys: this, or the simpler captains-system.
Reply #63 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The software the implements the MVL support needs to know that Mumblefratz is Toshiro and DethAdder is MetaLeaguer and so on. This software doesn't have to determine character ownership from the RSS data it can know simply because we tell it so by setting up a table of users and their characters for everyone in the MVL. This table can be added to over time which would in effect be the main function of an administrator, enter new MVL members and their characters as valid MVL members and distribute the password for the new member to use to make his submission.


Yes, it's certainly possible to do it that way (have the admin assign characters to forum users there manually). It's not even hard to do from a coding standpoint (like I've said, my games do something very similar arleady with forum account integration). It just concerns me that it's potentially insecure and could be a lot of work to maintain. This is largely what you indicated in #57.

A possible method of going that route:

1) User registers on AM forum.

2) User sends MVL admin a PM via GC2.com saying which account he signed up as at AM.

3) Admin assigns characters to that account as appropriate.
End of quote


I agree with this system but I'll just as well go with whatever the majority decides.

someone needs to be willing to do the dirty work of keeping it up.
End of quote


I volunteer.
Reply #64 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Not to step on toes or confuse anymore, however.. with just the captains having a password would most likely be the easiest and secure way to go. At least from what I have read and understand.

(I don't think anyone would screw with anybody elses game though)
Reply #65 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Edit: Argh, there's a whole nother page beyond that reply now... reading now.
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Great response: Argh. Trying to keep this focused was like pulling teeth.

1) User registers on AM forum.

2) User sends MVL admin a PM via GC2.com saying which account he signed up as at AM.

3) Admin assigns characters to that account as appropriate.

It's not really much more work for me, but if that's the way you guys want to go, someone needs to be willing to do the dirty work of keeping it up. So the choice is up to you guys: this, or the simpler captains-system.
End of quote

Yes. This is precisely what I was looking for. I am certainly willing to do the work as admin just so that people have the freedom to select their own games. I think this makes the most sense.

The captain method is a decent alternative but like I said if you set it up for 5 then 25 is no real big deal and it avoids a whole extra layer of management. Captains have been known to go missing late in a round. That's what happened with Team C in the very first round. Making everyone responsible for their own submission is far superior in my opinion. If communication among the team is desired before any submission occurs the team is still free to do so.

However regardless of my opinion that individual submissions are superior to submissions by team captains, each of these methods is a legitimate choice. Technically I think this is probably something that should get decided by a vote but I do have a concern about effectively communicating this choice to the league and then getting a wide enough response.

The following is my attempt at expressing this choice as simply as possible.


We have a choice between two methods of submitting games to the new AltMeta MVL.

In the first method every MVL member would be required to register at the AltMeta MVL site and then each month they would be required to log onto this site and indicate their submission.

In the second method only team captains would be required to register at the AltMeta MVL site and then each team captain would be required to decide which of each teammates games to submit (assumedly after consultation with each teammate).

Please vote for one choice or the other.


Note that if there was only one game submitted under the character that fit the game settings and fell within the appropriate dates then the AltMeta MVL could automatically presume that game to be the current round's submission. However also note that we do have MVL submission time as a team bonus criteria. By submitting a game you are commiting to that as your submission and giving up the chance to better the score later. If the AltMeta automatically presumed a single submission to be this month's submission then it would also need to assume for submission time purposes that the submission occured the instant before the round ended. This aspect would be true regardless of whether we go with submissions by captains only or by each individual.

Anyway now that we have a clear interpertation of what can be done, what do people feel about these issues?
Reply #66 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In the second method only team captains would be required to register at the AltMeta MVL site and then each team captain would be required to decide which of each teammates games to submit (assumedly after consultation with each teammate).
End of quote


To clarify, that system wouldn't even require any forum registration or integration. The admin would just set a password when defining teams and hand that out to the captains so they could access the selection page.
Reply #67 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Another point as to why individual submission is superior to submission by captain is that for any procastinators out there you could simply be out of luck if your captain isn't around at the time that you are finally ready to submit.

My round 3 submission for example did not occur until there was only an hour to go in the round. That is plenty of time to submit the game yourself but very little time to get in communication with your captain and then get him to do the submission. Of course if we have some method of an automatic default submission (I think we should set some defaults up) then if there is any game fitting the criteria then there would at least be something submitted however it might not be the game you actually intended.

Another point is that there is a time lag from submitting a game to the real Metaverse to it appearing in the AltMeta. I assume software can in some sense compenate for this however, clearly someone can't specify a game as thier submission until it actually shows up in the AltMeta.
Reply #68 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
To clarify, that system wouldn't even require any forum registration or integration. The admin would just set a password when defining teams and hand that out to the captains so they could access the selection page.
End of quote

Oh OK.

So this implies that each captain would have access to a different selection page that listed only games from members of their team.

Is this correct? How would this work for individual submissions?

The devil is in the details and we really don't have much to go by at this point.

[edit] Oh. I think I get it. Individual submissions probably would and should require registration whereas team captain submission would only require password access to a specific control page or pages. Still the question as to whether each captain has access to only his own teams games or would it be a single page for everyone that all captains have access to? [/edit]

[more edit] Another point about team captain submissions is that we may very well change up teams very frequently. So far we have played three rounds and are in the middle of our fourth. However, after three rounds we held a draft and completely changed up all of the teams while introding a 5th team. To me this implies that the individual submission method would not have to change when this occurs but certainly the team captain method would. Of course any change like this would have to change who is on which team but with the individual submission method at least the games continue to be submitted identically and no password changes are required. [/more edit]
Reply #69 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

So this implies that each captain would have access to a different selection page that listed only games from members of their team.

Is this correct? How would this work for individual submissions?
End of quote


Yeah, each team would have its own page for all the team's submissions and any selections that need to be done in such a system. The individual option would work best using integration with AM forums though, due to the larger number of people involved (would you want to have to come up with 25 unique passwords and hand them all out?)

My round 3 submission for example did not occur until there was only an hour to go in the round. That is plenty of time to submit the game yourself but very little time to get in communication with your captain and then get him to do the submission.
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Even if a game doesn't show up on the AM site before the deadline, the date recorded for the games are those kept on the metaverse. So if it doesn't scrape it until 12 hours after the deadline, the date on the game would still place it before the cutoff. And I don't see any harm in allowing a short grace period to resolve any selections after the cutoff, if you posted a second/third/etc just before the deadline.

If you've only posted one game with the required parameters in the league period, the filter would catch it and assume that it's the one you're going to use, since it's the only one. You/the captain would only need to select if you posted multiple games that qualify.

Reply #70 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Of course any change like this would have to change who is on which team but with the individual submission method at least the games continue to be submitted identically and no password changes are required.
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Yep, that is one advantage.
Reply #71 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah. The individual option would work best using integration with AM forums though, due to the larger number of people involved (would you want to have to come up with 25 unique passwords and hand them all out?)
End of quote

Agreed. Individual submission seems best with registration and the team captain method wouldn't necessarily require registration.

Even if a game doesn't show up on the AM site before the deadline, the date recorded for the games are those kept on the metaverse. So if it doesn't scrape it until 12 hours after the deadline, the date on the game would still place it before the cutoff.

If you've only posted one game with the required parameters in the league period, the filter would catch it and assume that it's the one you're going to use, since it's the only one. You/the captain would only need to select if you posted multiple games that qualify.
End of quote

Agreed on both points. We should probably have some default selection criteria setup to assume a game should a selection not occur. That way perhaps the right game won't be submitted but at least some game will be and anything is better than nothing.

How do you feel the changability of the league affects either method? We seem to be adding folks every round. People also drop out. Also people give notice that they can't play this round but will be back for the next. Finally how the complete reshuffling of the teams every 3 or 4 rounds affects things is important as well.
Reply #72 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
How do you feel the changability of the league affects either method? We seem to be adding folks every round. People also drop out. Also people give notice that they can't play this round but will be back for the next. Finally how the complete reshuffling of the teams every 3 or 4 rounds affects things is important as well.
End of quote


Not much. These sorts of changes would just be a matter of the admin assigning/deassigning characters to teams in either case, and possibly reissuing passwords for captains in that system.
Reply #73 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Ok, now that we've got this issue settled I want to ask how the AltMeta will actually do the MVL scoring.
Reply #74 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Ok, now that we've got this issue settled I want to ask how the AltMeta will actually do the MVL scoring.
End of quote


yeah... i still don't understand what the AltMeta can do for us in terms of changing the way we play (besides streamlined scoring which is a great advantage)
Reply #75 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Ok, now that we've got this issue settled I want to ask how the AltMeta will actually do the MVL scoring.
End of quote

This is settled? Which way was decided and precisely how did we decide it? Last I noticed we still have a choice between individual submissions and submissions by team captains. Assuming that this is settled is falling into the "let’s hurry up and get this over with" attitude that I warned about initially.

yeah... i still don't understand what the AltMeta can do for us in terms of changing the way we play (besides streamlined scoring which is a great advantage)
End of quote

I don't see incorporating the MVL into the AltMeta making any real difference in how we play. Certainly there is the difference in the ridculously long submission threads that we currently have. Also this could easily streamline scoring and help prevent error as you point out. But the big thing that the Altmeta can add is a bit of history to the league coupled with a nice fancy display. Currently once a round is over who would bother to go back through all the crap that gets into our reporting threads to see how your or your competitators teams have done in the past. Having this data in the AltMeta gives some permanancy to the League. Right now we are essentially simply existing from round to round with no real knowledge of past performance. The AltMeta functionaity can track and graph previous performance on a league, team and individual basis.