Mumblefratz Mumblefratz

The MVL and the AltMeta

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The MVL and the AltMeta

from GalCiv2 Forums
OK guys, I've tried to bring up this topic of discussion subtly on a number of occasions all for naught. It seems that subtly is lost on the average MVL player, or perhaps put another way, the average MVL player has all the subtly of a ball peen hammer.

Anyway, it’s time to start discussing this directly. By this I mean I would like to get support for the MVL into the AltMeta. Kryo has expressed willingness to do this but wants a solid definition of precisely what it is that we want. This encompasses a number of potential issues.

Certainly at a minimum it would be nice if we have a fancy display of league results that all could view each month on the AltMeta. It would also be nice to be able to see past months results. Finally I’m sure all would like to be able to view these results on a league wide, team wide or individual basis.

Even regarding the "simple" display of league results there are probably very many ways to do this. I know when the Metaverse Council was discussing options relating to AltMeta Classes we found it helpful to sketch up something just for folks to look at, criticize and comment on. I have a couple of ideas that I will sketch up at some point when I get a chance however it would be nice if other folks could come up with a few ideas on their own (hint, hint ).

The next level of complexity that needs some discussion is a method of game submission to the league that could be a little more automated than posting images or words to a thread. As we’ve seen this requires the official scorers to go through a lot of posts for a limited amount of information and there are invariably a few folks that leave off a critical piece of information that then requires the scorer to check the player’s character.

The final level of complexity could involve a well defined set of scoring rules that could allow software to score each round automatically.

Regardless of all of the above there probably would be the need for someone to administer all of this.

Anyway, I hope that the potential of getting MVL support into the AltMeta is of interest to most players and that we can use this thread to decide what it is we want to do.

I do want to forewarn folks that this is not something that can be resolved quickly and easily and it will take folks that are willing to put in a little bit of effort to reach a good solution that we can be proud of and that pretty much everyone agrees on. All too often the attitude that I’ve seen in the League is one of "let’s hurry up and get this over with". If that’s the attitude of most folks then we probably shouldn’t even bother. If so then perhaps I should resurrect the corpses of the Metaverse Council and we should figure out what to do within that framework.   

Everyone should feel free to comment on any and all of these points that I’ve brought up or to bring up any others that they feel are related.

One of the first points I want to discuss is the issue that within the context of all of these MVL threads everyone thinks of MVL members in terms of their username not their character name (i.e. Mumblefratz instead of Toshiro Mifune). Clearly this isn’t that big a deal because I think folks can figure out who is who if required, however one thing to point out is that the AltMeta only knows about character names *not* user names.

Another point to consider is that it may be beneficial for everyone in the league to commit to join a single metaverse empire such as the MV League that thebutterfly has setup. A number of folks have joined that empire but a number of folks haven’t. It would be good to hear from Kryo if he thinks that would be a benefit and if so whether or not most folks would be willing to do it. If it simplifies things (and I think it would) perhaps we should simply make it a requirement.

So what do you think?
metaverse
82,226 views 182 replies
Reply #26 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If so then perhaps I should resurrect the corpses of the Metaverse Council and we should figure out what to do within that framework.
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I feel the only members that would participate are the MVC members playing here, Mumble, TGE, DA and myself. Did i miss someone? Sorry, but the point is we have already more support from other MVL players than we would get from the rest of the council.
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Marshall.
This was more of an attempt on my part to inspire a bit more community involvement within the MVL than any real legitimate suggestion.

One aspect that I am/was a bit concerned about is how many folks we have in the league and whether we will be able to motivate a league wide sense of participation. The one aspect of the MVC that lended itself better to discussion and decision was that it was a smaller group of people that were in some sense more dedicated to the betterment of the Metaverse.

One of the attitudes that I've noticed within the League is one that doesn't want to be bothered with the details of rules or other ancillary discussion. Basically it seems that some want to play but otherwise don't have the time to deal with other things not directly related to game play. It's this attitude that I've tried to prod people out of and because of this I've received PM's regarding my tendency to be condenscending and dismissive. I can understand how some of the comments that I've made could be considered as such but that really wasn't my intent. My intent was to try to wheedle and conjole folks into greater participation.

At this point we do seem to have a bit more participation than we have previously had, however as I mentioned I still think we need a league wide vote to determine whether the league wants to be incorporated into the AltMeta. I think that vote can also tell us how much folks do want to participate. I would consider getting 10 votes out of 25 members like we did on the first vote a big failure for the league.
Reply #27 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
At this point we do seem to have a bit more participation than we have previously had, however as I mentioned I still think we need a league wide vote to determine whether the league wants to be incorporated into the AltMeta. I think that vote can also tell us how much folks do want to participate. I would consider getting 10 votes out of 25 members like we did on the first vote a big failure for the league.
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I agree. But we may have picked the wrong time to do this too. I know TA has taken alot of people's attention and that may continue for some time. So we may not get a true feeling of how much interest there is for this until TA is closer to release and people are tiring or until much after it's released.

Of course the impending holiday season may also take people away from the league.

Even if we don't get the super enthusiastic reaction we would like for our inclusion in the AltMeta, we should not discard the idea completely, timing may be the reason and trying again later may be more fruitful.



Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #28 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
But we may have picked the wrong time to do this too. I know TA has taken alot of people's attention and that may continue for some time.
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Perhaps, although last time we rushed into the vote without a lot of prep work. Also the topic of the previous vote was pretty much decided and not nearly as important as this one. I think if we all give it the prep it needs and encourage our teammates to participate we will have a much better turnout.

Even if we don't get the super enthusiastic reaction we would like for our inclusion in the AltMeta, we should not discard the idea completely, timing may be the reason and trying again later may be more fruitful.
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Also agreed. In fact as long as the League seems basically in favor of the idea we should probably move forward even if the participation on the "nuts and bolts" discussion is a bit light. It's probably just a natural extension of being bigger. It's always going to be more difficult to get 25 people to agree and participate than it is to get 12. In the end it doesn't really take 25 folks to get the job done, but you do want to feel like everyone did get the opportunity to express their opinion.

I think one of the important points brought out earlier is to not rush through this. Perhaps it's merely the appearence of a lack of participation because some folks simply haven't even seen the thread.

Anyway, I think a vote a day or two after the current round would be a good time. It gives people plenty of time to become aware of the issue and form an opinion. It also gives plenty of time for those of us that are aware of it to encourage our teammates to participate.



Reply #29 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I currently have just the 1 character that I submit games under so I could easily create a MVL character for an "AltMeta" empire. I would be in favor of that.
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Do that then. I agree that it is not a good idea to make membership in this empire mandatory. But I also believe we should try everything possible to make it easier to find our characters for calculating scores. I also like the graphical depiction of the empire in altmeta (it shows the span of posts we cover, which should encourage everyone to join).

I am not aware of having any special powers in this empire apart from choosing the logo and nominating senators - it is as open as possible. I do feel uncomfartable about being an Emperor, because my teaching of Englisch-speaking postcolonial literatures in rl tends to be rather anti-imperialistic (often it just strikes me as ironic). But then again, I believe that the MVL empire is not really an empire but more of a convenience.

I AM happy about the fine-tuned rules we now habe that make our game rounds enjoyable (thanks to our rulekeeper) - maybe the reduced forum participation only shows how smoothly things have been running lately. At the moment I cannot yet see the benefits of using altmeta in this new way - but I trust my more visionary collegues (YOU GUYS) that there is some added benefit and this is why I trundle along.

Whatever solution we find in the end - it is certainly acceptable for some people to focus on playing - administration can lead to frustration, so the altmeta solution should not include too much extra works for those players who are not into extra administrative work.

I am willing to participate as good as I can - if this means extra work for leading the "MVL league empire" - so be it - if it means handing over control over the empire to someone else - whatever...
Reply #30 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
AARRGGGHHHH! I wish I could do more, You guys are talking spreadsheets and stuff, and I can't even figure out how to get a stupid Avatar. Very Frustrating.
Reply #31 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I agree that it is not a good idea to make membership in this empire mandatory. But I also believe we should try everything possible to make it easier to find our characters for calculating scores. I also like the graphical depiction of the empire in altmeta
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Agreed on all points. We should consider it not mandatory but highly encouraged to join for the reasons you mention.

As far as "special" powers there's really not much. The ability to send an invitation email is emperor only. But the one thing that could become important is the ability to kick people out of the empire should someone join only to become an annoyance. The likelihood of this is extremely remote but it is possible. One suggestion would be to change the Empire status to "Moderated" that way new members must be approved however any Senator (i.e. current member) can approve the application. Has anyone every tried out this functionality?

Whatever solution we find in the end - it is certainly acceptable for some people to focus on playing - administration can lead to frustration, so the altmeta solution should not include too much extra works for those players who are not into extra administrative work.
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Absolutely. In the end being in the AltMeta should be less work for everyone as well as having a fancy display that includes the history of previous rounds.
Reply #32 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Do that then. I agree that it is not a good idea to make membership in this empire mandatory.
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This would be one thing I would be against, and if it came to a vote that incorporated this requirement, then I would certainly vote no.

Waht sort of tasks/responsibilites need to be delegated? I'm willing to lend a hand if need be.

Kzinti empire2.JPG Sentient species taste better...

Reply #33 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
This would be one thing I would be against, and if it came to a vote that incorporated this requirement, then I would certainly vote no.
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I see no reason or benefit for membership in any specific empire to be mandatory. It seems that most folks would be OK with it and it's a good idea to join just so everyone is in the same place but objection to things like this that are mandatory often get to be a matter of philosophy. I see no compelling reason to force anyone to join a specific empire.

However, I do believe that it is a requirement to be in some empire even if it's your own private empire of one in order to be listed on the AltMeta and being listed on the AltMeta obviously would be a requirement.

As far as tasks/responsibilities there are really nothing specific at the moment. It's more a matter of giving it some thought and suggesting details or actually drawing up a picture of some sort dipicting how you think this should be displayed. Any concrete idea that can be used as a sounding board could be very helpful. Without pictures it's difficult for folks to know what it is we're talking about. Even something that people don't like is beneficial because it forms a basis for discussion and simply articulating what it is you don't like about something often suggests alternatives.

It's really all the "what if's" that makes these kinds of discussions difficult to follow and I'm fairly convinced that the difficulty of following discussions like this can be a major contribution to why some folks might not want to participate.
Reply #34 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
wow, catch a little cold, be in bed for a week, and look at all the things you miss out on. Lots of things to take in here....generally, I would say I am for inclusion in the altmeta. I think i have questions and points of clarification that I need but I just finished all the posts above me and yeah...too much to take in at once.

Biggest concern off the top of my head: which game gets counted toward score. Kryo mentioned how he could make it so that it went for the highest score, but thats not *always* most desirable. There are times that I may be willing to give up points for game speed (ie a 1yr 7000pt game vs a 2yr 8000pt game). This extends into, AFAIK, that players could resolve this by only submitting one finalized game per round, and thats it, but that kinda hamstrings you. Also, for people that use an established character that also submits non MVL games concurrently, there could be possible overlap which would be undesirable.
Reply #35 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Biggest concern off the top of my head: which game gets counted toward score. Kryo mentioned how he could make it so that it went for the highest score, but thats not *always* most desirable. There are times that I may be willing to give up points for game speed (ie a 1yr 7000pt game vs a 2yr 8000pt game).
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Yes clearly we need to be able to submit games to the metaverse under our MVL character at will and then at some point with some mechanism say that *this* particular game is the one we wish to submit for the League.

I didn't catch where Kryo mentioned he could automatically select a game, if so then he's not quite clear on how we do things. He had mentioned of being able to filter all of the character's games for those that fit the criteria based on size, date and other info but then require an administrator to make the final selection. Of course that put's us right back where we are where we need to have a humongous thread where people scatter their posts indicating this month's submission along with all the other monthly conversations and taunts.

I'd really like to be able to get rid of the submission thread and have a mechanism where each player could do that himself directly with the AltMeta. That could save everyone a whole lot of trouble. The problem that Kryo has indicated with this is that he has no way to verify that any particular person "owns" any particular character. I've suggested the possibility of setting up usernames and passwords for MVL members to "logon" to the AltMeta to get around this issue but so far haven't heard any response to that idea.

Clearly people need the freedom to use their MVL character for submitting multiple games that they later select from as well as possibly submit games totally unrelated to the League. That's why I'm not even in favor of having software filter games based on a criteria simply there are so many settings we specify and we really could only filter for size and date. Everything else can't be determined from data available to the MV.

One thing we can't really support is if someone wished to submit under one character one month and a different character next month and back and forth. I don't think anyone has done this but it would have been fine under the old system. The other issue is that it would be far more difficult to somehow include a game that wasn't posted to the MV because of an Error 12 or Error 16. The problem is that the AltMeta gets all its data from the MV, if it's not in the MV then it's not in the AltMeta. Submitting a screenshot of the endgame screens is not really a good way to get data into the AltMeta.
Reply #36 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It would seem that inclusion in the AltMeta would have to come with the rule of 1 game per character per round. Which i'm sure most would agree is not the best way to play the league. It would seem like it might be more challenging but there would be little freedom to get better at the game unless we all reverted to practising each round in sandbox mode.

And that is not going to happen. So before we proceed any further we need to decide if we all agree on 1 game per person per round...or...find a suitable alternative.

Now i guess i have stated the obvious a bit there, but i think it gives us a clear idea of our first goal, and since there are just a few of us discussing this we may as well proceed. Further debate on whether we all want to be in the AltMeta seems fruitless if we have no way of implementing our inclusion should that be the consensus, which it seems it is.

Toshiro mentioned using an administrator to pick and chose which game each character choose as their submitted MVL game. Yes, this is not too different than what we have now, but it is also not going to be any harder than the current system, and with a nice interface to go with it. If this is our end solution, then that sits fine with me, even if i am the one sifting through the submissions. (Though i'd like a 2 or 3 person team to keep doing that work if need be)
Reply #37 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I don't know if I understood properly, but 1 game per round is not the way to go. I try different strategies for each round and then we discuss in our private forum. Going that route would take a lot of teamwork out of it.
Reply #38 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
One game per round is not much of a problem, is it?
Well, save your game when you know it's over (before hitting end turn for the last time).
Look at your score. play a few more games. Post the best.

Only problem: you get no medals and stuff for the games you dismissed.
Reply #39 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The problem that Kryo has indicated with this is that he has no way to verify that any particular person "owns" any particular character. I've suggested the possibility of setting up usernames and passwords for MVL members to "logon" to the AltMeta to get around this issue but so far haven't heard any response to that idea.
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There's really no way around that. Pretty much the only thing I could think of to allow a character to be 'linked' to a separate account would be something like giving the user a specific set of game parameters and require them to submit a game within a short period of time on the given character that matches those parameters. Any truly secure system would require the altmeta to have actual access to internal records on the metaverse, and that's not happening.

Yes clearly we need to be able to submit games to the metaverse under our MVL character at will and then at some point with some mechanism say that *this* particular game is the one we wish to submit for the League......Of course that put's us right back where we are where we need to have a humongous thread where people scatter their posts indicating this month's submission along with all the other monthly conversations and taunts.
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There are other ways as well to indicate which game the player desires, if it's not something that can be decided automatically when there are multiple matching games. Granted you guys may want the selection to be public though, so PM/email would be out then.

Personally though I think some way of having the selection performed automatically, (depending on how you guys score and rank everything) to achieve the optimal results for everyone would be the most preferable way to go, since that then eliminates any messy "extra" work to be done by the players--they just post their games, taunt their competitors, and wait for the results.

if so then he's not quite clear on how we do things.
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Admittedly I'm only vaguely familiar with the intricacies of the league, which is why we need to get things straightened out
Reply #40 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It would seem that inclusion in the AltMeta would have to come with the rule of 1 game per character per round.
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I don't see why this would be necessary and I would find it objectionable if it was required. At the worst we could still maintain a submission thread and then have the administrator do a manual selection of games. I'd really like to avoid that but I'd much rather have that than restrict people's characters to only one game per month.

Personally though I think some way of having the selection performed automatically, (depending on how you guys score and rank everything) to achieve the optimal results for everyone would be the most preferable way to go, since that then eliminates any messy "extra" work to be done by the players--they just post their games, taunt their competitors, and wait for the results.
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Automatic selection is really not desirable because we have a number of scoring criteria that work counter to each other. The speed/score decision is one, the new team average submission bonus is another. Also we're likely to change these scoring criteria at any point and so this selection programming would have to change along with it. Basically the game selection process is a major part of team strategy and so should definitely *not* be done automatically.

I'd be far more interested in having everything scored automatically once the selections are somehow made but even this may be too changable over time to be worthwhile.

There's really no way around that. Pretty much the only thing I could think of to allow a character to be 'linked' to a separate account would be something like giving the user a specific set of game parameters and require them to submit a game within a short period of time on the given character that matches those parameters. Any truly secure system would require the altmeta to have actual access to internal records on the metaverse, and that's not happening.
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I'm still not quite understanding the issue here. I see no real need for the AltMeta to have access to internal metaverse records. All that is neccesary is for the AltMeta to know is who has the right to say which game of any particular character should be submitted.

So how would the "administrator" function work? I would assume that an account would be setup on your site that hosts the AltMeta with normal password access and that account would have certain privileges that would allow the adminstrator to perform certain functions. I guess I'm making the assumption that the AltMeta is like a normal website where people can register and be given various levels of access. If that is the case then all MVL members could setup an account with password access with a very limited set of actions they could perform. The only action they could perform would be to define a game from games that "their" character has already submitted to the MV as their MVL submission.

It would probably be fine if there was only a single global MVL submitters account that all MVL members could use and we could trust that any member would only "submit" games from their character and not mess around with other peoples characters. After all if you mess with someone's character then someone could mess with your's.

Again I'm guessing as to how the AltMeta works and this may just not be practical.

Granted you guys may want the selection to be public though, so PM/email would be out then.
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The selection itself need not be public, simply the fact that such and such a game has been submitted should be public. What did you have in mind? If the PM would merely be to the administrator who then would define the game as submitted and currently submitted games would be listed then that would be OK but it still has the issue of everything going through an administrator. This does at least eliminate the need to search through a long complicated thread to extract the information but it still is a manual operation. If a PM from a defined user account from either here or the Core could somehow automatically "submit" a game already listed in the AltMeta then that would actually be perfect.

Admittedly I'm only vaguely familiar with the intricacies of the league, which is why we need to get things straightened out
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Yep. Also we have no real clue as to what capabilities the AltMeta has or doesn't have which is why both sides are grasping at straws.


Reply #41 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
All that is neccesary is for the AltMeta to know is who has the right to say which game of any particular character should be submitted.
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That's the nub of the issue. The altmeta just scrapes the data from the metaverse--and one thing that data lacks is what user owns any given character. Without some sort of confirmation process like I described, there's no way to securely and genuinely identify that a person on [any yet to be added] altmeta forum actually owns a character, and thus can legitimately make choices pertaining to it.

Also we're likely to change these scoring criteria at any point and so this selection programming would have to change along with it.
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Well, any such rules need to be codified either way, or at least designed in such a format as I can make a system for an administrator to easily modify weights/points for various attributes of the games. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to do much besides a pretty frontend for the league results.

So how would the "administrator" function work? I would assume that an account would be setup on your site that hosts the AltMeta with normal password access and that account would have certain privileges that would allow the adminstrator to perform certain functions.
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Short of adding the altmeta to my project forums (forums.kryofx.com, presently only used for my game projects)--not a bad thing in and of itself since it would also expose you guys and potentially get you to play in those--and developing a confirmation system for linking characters to users and determining permissions, it'd probably just be something very simple such as password protecting the location of the admin page on the server level (via htaccess).

The selection itself need not be public, simply the fact that such and such a game has been submitted should be public. What did you have in mind? If the PM would merely be to the administrator who then would define the game as submitted and currently submitted games would be listed then that would be OK but it still has the issue of everything going through an administrator.
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Basically the thought was that if a thread is too cumbersome, and automatic selection is out, players could PM the admin with which game they wanted to use, if they had submitted more than one (if they only submitted one, then the script would already have that filtered out.

Yep. Also we have no real clue as to what capabilities the AltMeta has or doesn't have which is why both sides are grasping at straws.
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Basically, it scrapes the RSS feeds off the metaverse empire pages (to get empire names and character lists) and character pages (to get game info). It stores that data and performs various calulations and interpretations based on it to give the stuff you see. That's pretty much it at present. So if you want to know what the altmeta knows, just look at those feeds.
Reply #42 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
ok, so, let's see if i at least got this much right LOL, and this should help you Mumble. A concern that was raised was that submitted games in the AltMeta couldn't be confirmed to be from a player, since it just reads the character. Now, as I understand it there isn't anyway for a person to change things actually in the AltMeta since its just reading the MV scores under a given Empire. That being the case we shouldn't have to worry about confirmation too much since a person has to log in and use a password to post to the actual Metaverse anyway. Now, that being said, I *think* the concern Kryo was trying to mention was that if we used a particular empire or that empire plus individual character empires, that if someone who isn't in the MVL but say, joined the MVL Empire without notification, and then uploaded a game to the Metaverse it would appear in the AltMeta and affect overall scores. (for example, John Doe decides to join the Tyranny of Evil today, and submits 10 defeats, I mean at least he's playing LOL, but something like that would adversely affect MVL scoring for sure)

There is another way of looking at this too; we could in effect have both systems work concurrently. The AltMeta for raw score tracking and submission time, which would be awesome; and then also the Administration team (Neilo, FireBender, and myself) that would also check game time and whatever other point systems we have in place. The AltMeta would save us on time figuring out who has top score and such stats, and also as a safety against human mistakes, but basically would be an added feature rather than the end-all, be-all of our scoring system.

The biggest benefit of course is the MVL being up in front for more people to see, which is definitely not a bad thing.

The more I think about all this, the more I am for a hybrid system. There would be some changes that would be mandatory obviously such as only a single character can be used, a game would HAVE to be posted to the MV to count, and non-submittals, even if we are given notice, have a much higher detriment to a team (since it would be factoring a "0" into the averaging).

Also to Neilo and Mumblefratz about multiple threads...this could be remedied by Neilo only using one thread for Round Specifications, that is say on Dec 1st/2nd when Round 5 begins, he would edit the OP for Round 4 and it would become Round 5. This has pro's/cons, it limits the amount of various threads we have but also adds pages. The OP could reflect what page, roughly, the current discussion begins on, ie Round 5 discussion begins on Page 12. This also has some benefit to me and I think other captains too actually, as it would make it MUCH easier to look back over past trends and see how players have performed. Actually...I'm really liking that idea. LOL, of course I always like my ideas.
Reply #43 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Actually...I'm really liking that idea. LOL, of course I always like my ideas.
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That pretty much goes by definition, everyone always likes their own ideas.

Um, actually I had a response written up to Kryo's last post but had to go out with the wife before I posted it. The issue's you bring up were not the one's related to the concern's that I had. It also seems that my, Kyro's and your interpretations are all somewhat skewed from each other. There seems to be a lot of talking but not much understanding of what the other guy's concern is.

I really didn't want to have to write a thesis here in response but I see no option but addressing each thing individually. No one is trying to change things in the AltMeta. The AltMeta as it is currently simply lists all the games of a character that have been submitted to the metaverse. The current AltMeta then allows the display of that characters data either individually or as part of their empire. None of this really has anything to do with the proposal of incorporating the MVL into the AltMeta. What I would like to do is for each player to be able to pick one particular game that is already in the AltMeta in it's normal format and be able to display the set of all MVL games in a totally separate display.

The whole idea of confirmation is not that the submitted MV game is valid but that there needs to be some kind of confirmation that it is really Mumblefratz that specifies that the game submitted under the Toshiro Mifune character on such and such date and time is actually Mumblefratz. There is no doubt that any game under Toshiro Mifune is played by Mumblefratz because I own the character, but we have no idea of who said which specific game should be considered this months submission.

Your passage about someone joining the MVL empire with no notifaction and that messing up the league stats makes no sense. People in any particular empire are not members of the league. Members of the league are the people that we define to be in the League.

Your second paragraph is closer to what I have in mind except that the AltMeta would also provide a dedicated display for the MVL only. A display that would be totally separate from the normal display. Also I would expect that a human administrator would still calculate score or at least approve the calculation of score simply because our scoring system has so far been very changable. However all of this about the scoring is still jumping the gun and mudding up the waters on a still unresolved issue which is how to allow people to specify which of their characters games should be used as this month's MVL game.

I'm trying to first off concentrate on one single issue so that this complex discussion doesn't get totally confusing, however I begin to fear that it's already too late.

I want to concentrate on the one single issue of trying to submit games as automatically as possible without requiring the intervention of an administrator.

Regardless of the things that have been said I still think that if we had a user account system with passwords on the AltMeta then each MVL player could logon to the AltMeta and submit the game from their character and that would be all they could do. I still haven't heard in words I can understand why this can't be done. Is whatever the AltMeta is hosted on not setup to have user accounts and passwords? I'm just still not understanding the issue.


Reply #44 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Another way to possibly to think about this would be to consider hosting this at the Core as opposed to whatever hosting the AltMeta is on.

I mean I would prefer that this all be bound up with the AltMeta on the basis of making the AltMeta a one stop shopping location but if it lacks the ability to setup accounts that can be validated with passwords we could possibly get kryo to sort of duplicate the functionality of reading the MV RSS feeds to get the original data and then allow people the access to specify which game of their character to use.

Of course we'd have to run this past the current owners of the Core but I suspect they would be OK with this. Kryo would still of course "own" the AltMeta functionality and concept and this may cause more work or otherwise be unworkable for a whole raft of issues but at least the ability to password protect access based on a user ID is already present.
Reply #45 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
ah ok, now I'm following...slightly better So we need confirmation on who is stating which game is being submitted for the MVL. We don't want to do the thread cuz thats what we are doing now so that defeats the purpose really, but since there isn't a way a user can go into the AltMeta securely to select a game we have the possible case of others selecting a game from another player and stating it as the submission. I think.

We could just use PMs to the administrator(s), since you have to log in for that anyway, and it doesnt take up thread space, or some such manner that a member would be able to easily notify the administrator(s) of what game they are using. just a thought.
Reply #46 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The whole idea of confirmation is not that the submitted MV game is valid but that there needs to be some kind of confirmation that it is really Mumblefratz that specifies that the game submitted under the Toshiro Mifune character [is the one to be used for the league]
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Precisely.

There is no doubt that any game under Toshiro Mifune is played by Mumblefratz because I own the character, but we have no idea of who said which specific game should be considered this months submission.
End of quote


*We* know in an academic sense that that character is owned by Mumblefratz. Unfortunately that knowledge is not available to the altmeta--nowhere in the RSS feeds is it indicated what username a character belongs to. So that really compounds the issue of linking a character to an owner.

Regardless of the things that have been said I still think that if we had a user account system with passwords on the AltMeta then each MVL player could logon to the AltMeta and submit the game from their character and that would be all they could do.
End of quote


This can't work so simply for exactly the reasons you yourself stated and I elaborated on. I'll try an example.

Let's say Mumblefratz submits two games under Toshiro that both qualify for the current MVL round. He wants to pick the one that will count for the scoring.

The altmeta knows ONLY that Toshiro has two new games, and the various parameters about those games.

The altmeta does not know that Toshiro is owned by a user under the name "Mumblefratz" on this site. We know this ourselves, but that information is flatly not available to the altmeta (it's not in the RSS feeds).

The altmeta has no way to identify that a user under the name "Mumblefratz" on the altmeta forum is one and the same as the same username here.

So you see, there are two levels of uncertainty/potential insecurity involved here, and no simple (read: automatable) solution.

----

Detour: A simple solution that comes to me just as I'm composng this reply (far better than the aforementioned 'post-a-game-with-these-settings-to-prove-its-you' method, which I had just written about in further detail but discarded upon thinking of this) would be to allow the MVL admin to issue passwords to the team captains. The captains could then log in to a form listing the games submitted for their team, and resolve any multiple-submissions (assumably after discussion with their team members). The admin could simply distribute the passwords via PM here, so there's no question that they go to the right people.









Reply #47 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I mean I would prefer that this all be bound up with the AltMeta on the basis of making the AltMeta a one stop shopping location but if it lacks the ability to setup accounts that can be validated with passwords we could possibly get kryo to sort of duplicate the functionality of reading the MV RSS feeds to get the original data and then allow people the access to specify which game of their character to use.

Of course we'd have to run this past the current owners of the Core but I suspect they would be OK with this. Kryo would still of course "own" the AltMeta functionality and concept and this may cause more work or otherwise be unworkable for a whole raft of issues but at least the ability to password protect access based on a user ID is already present.
End of quote


Kinda moot now given the thought I detailed at the end of my above post, but feel a need to address this. The issue isn't one of having user accounts with passwords (that's easy to do via a forum, and in fact I already do that with my games--log in on the forum and you get appropriate access in the game), but as above it's rather one of determining that those forum users are who they say they are, and that they really own the characters.

Anyway. Like I said, I think just having the MVL admin grant access manually via PM here to the team captains, and having the captains responsible for selecting games from those that qualify for the round is the simplest solution.
Reply #48 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Most of this discussion goes above my head on the coding side, but it sounds like we're getting closer to a solution to the "which game" issue. Kryo's suggestion seems like the most amicable and the team captains would be able to do something to earn their salt besides being a messenger for team passwords and occasional cheerleader .

All this time and I never knew you had a forum Kryo. I knew you were working on a game, but didn't realize the info on it was right there the whole time   (I'll have to learn more   )
Reply #49 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Fine by me. I must admit I was a little lost but it cleared with explanations about wrong games being posted.
Reply #50 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
allow the MVL admin to issue passwords to the team captains. The captains could then log in to a form listing the games submitted for their team, and resolve any multiple-submissions (assumably after discussion with their team members). The admin could simply distribute the passwords via PM here, so there's no question that they go to the right people.
End of quote

This is precisely what I was talking about except instead of limiting password access to team captains just expand the concept to include everyone in the league. I don't see how it makes much difference between having 5 people with password access responsible for selecting games for 5 different people instead of having 25 people having password access simply being responsible for selecting their own submissions. I don't really see the issue preventing this.

If PM's here to specific characters is a secure method for distributing passwords to 5 folks I can't see why the same is not true for 25 people.