deBeers?

De beers!!

Hell and heaven. What makes you think there's a difference? They're both exactly what you want, seen as it really is.

Well, if there is such a place, its where I'll be going. So I may as well pretend there is...

No hell? then it's.... PARTY TIME!

Ooo, looks like the double-up demon is on my case already...

JYthier posts:

Agree, the process of which we are made holy "sanctification" is an ongoing process.


Jythier posts:

Yes, becasue of CHrist's Cross, those who acknowledge (confess)their sin and truly repent, Christ will forgive them as far as the east is from the west. But Christians often die in venial sins upon their soul. The punishment of their sins are still unpaid and Catholics believe they must be purified of them in Purgatory before they enter Heaven.

And remember Revelation 21:27, "Nothing unclean shall enter it (Heaven), nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood..."

Take the person who has not completely expiated his sins, that is, not just had them forgiven, but made up for them, been punished for them, in this life, is to some extent "unclean". Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to qualify for heaven (which is to say his soul is spiritually alive), but that is not enough. He needs to be completely cleansed. Not "covered" and thereby declared clean, but actually be clean. It's not contrary to the Redemption by Christ to say we must be suffer (punished) of our sins, it is a matter of justice. We can and do suffer here, or hereafter, or in both places as St.Augustine wrote. For those who say that God doesn't demand expiation after having forgiven sins...think of King David. When David repented, God sent Nathan with a message to him. "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." 2Sam.12:14. Even after David's sin was forgiven, he had to undergo expiation. Can we expect less? Many may say yes, but Scripture sure doesn't teach that anywhere.. Having one's sins forgiven is not the same thing as having the punishment for them wiped out.

This same works in a similiar way in our natural life here on earth. If we hit a ball and break the window...we are forgiven, but we must makes amends...pay for or replace the window. The thief who steals and is caught is forgiven, yet, in justice--must must make amends and receive his punishment. When we are young and disobey our parents, we are forgiven and yet, in justice--punished for the wrong-doing.





Jythier, there is no condemnation for our sins according to who? Scriptures tell that nothing defiled can enter Heaven. Wisdom 7:25, Isaias 25:8, Hab. 1:13, and Rev. 21:27.

If I understand fundamentalism correctly, the main reason for your thinking Purgatory makes no sense is that it simply can't co-exist with fundamentalism's notion of salvation. For Fundamentalists, salvation comes by "accepting Christ as one's personal Savior". Aside from that one act of acceptance, no acts--meaning no good deeds and no sins---make any difference with respect to one's salvation. If one is "born-again" in fundamentalism's sense, salvation has already occurred, and nothing can keep one from heaven. If not 'born again", then one is damned. In this scenario, Purgatory would be superfluous since cleansing before entering Heaven would be unnecessary, on the notion that every soul is unclean and God ignores the uncleanliness by "covering" or "cloaking" the soul's sinfulness.

Purgatory makes sense only if there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered" or "cloaked", if its' sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then, for all the protestations that may be given, it's still a guilty soul--still "unclean". Someone who hasn't bathed in a month isn't cleansed by putting on clean clothes, as clean clothes don't remove the dirt. Likewise, "covering" or "cloaking" a soul will not purify it; it's dirty state is merely hidden from view. Catholic theology takes seriously that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this is is inferred that a less than clean soul, even if "covered", remains a dirty soul, and is not fit for heaven according to Rev. 21: 27. It needs to be cleansed or purified of its remaining imperfections, the purification comes in Purgatory.





Jythier posts:


Christ speaks of the forgiveness of sins in "the world to come". StMatt. 12:32 which refers to Purgatory according to St.Augustine and other Church Doctors.

LULA POSTS:

If you read the entire passage from v. 10, you'll find that St.Paul was speaking in the context of his metaphor of building and just as fire reveals the solidity of the construction, so God's judgment will show up the actions of each person, his "works" in their true light; they will become manifest. We understand that everyone will be rewarded according to his works and when speaking of retribution, St.Paul mentions fire and this is seen as a reference to the punishment meted out in Purgatory. Why Purgatory and not Hell? This loss, this penalty, can't refer to Hell since no one is saved there, and it can't mean Heaven, since there is no suffering (fire) there.

To Catholics, this means some must be in a third place...at leasttemporarily...that time would be between the Particular Judgment immediately upon a person's death and at the end of time when the General or Final Judgment occurs. It is between these two judgments that the soul expiates its sins: Christ said, "I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny." St.Luke 12:59.


The Catholic doctrine is most reasonable. It follows logically from the fact that many die with the burden of venial sins on their soul and conscience, or die with temporal punishment due to their forgiven sins still unpaid. The average Christian commits many a venial sin in his lifetime, for which he never craves pardon. The sinner of many years standing, who in God's mercy is pardoned on his deathbed, must in the hereafter satisfy to the last farthing (penny) his debt of temporal punishment.

No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

------john lennon, "imagine"

I remember John Lennon making the comment " the Beetles were more popular than Jesus Christ "? Ever wonder where he got that? If we could talk to him today, I wonder what he would say?

hamartanō

at the time--certainly over the next 10 years or so--a greater percemtage of the planet's population were more familiar with the beAtles than they were jesus. it's even possible more people liked them better than they did jesus.



he'd probably forgive the christo-fascists, kkk members and the tyrant governments of south africa and the philipines who threatened bandmembers' lives, destroyed their records and prohibited broadcast of their music. he'd prolly still be shaking his head over elvis, driven by his obsessive jealousy and severe opiate addiction, offering to entrap them for richard nixon in return for nixon making elvis an honorary officer of the bureau of narcotics and dangerous drugs. i'm guessing he'd savor the ironic fact that--on the night of august 13, 1966; the very night it launched its very own beatle record burning event---texas radio station klue was struck by lightning.

'Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.' (Luke 6:26)



I strongly doubt that.   

Love,
.A.

X,

It really depends upon where the seed lands.

.A.

Silver Beetles...became The Beatles. Get it BEAT-LES ? I am getting 'beet-root' from you, or is it 'beet-route' Very cosmic, H. Now the truth is that they were actually very popular and kids would rather come and get the energy that these four evangelists (pardon, the sweet tooth comment) were giving off. Okay, it was spurred on by the 'falling in, falling out love writings' of old Willy Shakespeare, but they certainly had learned a lot about playing those guitars and singing together, when they returned from Germany. I mean they were probably the greatest harmony group that this world has ever listened to. To most they were just a group of young boys, singing like a choir. They must have seemed angelic. Just young lads who got the chance to take the first big ride on the magic of Rock 'n Roll...and well you know that Elvis was AOG, and that Sir Cliff Richard, is the oldest living Christian bacheolor boy in the Universe, so why not say...'We are bigger than Jesus,...they were.'

Whether it was theologically correct or not, really does not matter. It was an accurate observation on John's part (with the Anglican Church being so boring an all) and certainly even today, there is not one Church that has not benefited from Rock 'n Roll. We just forget how groovy it is to twist and shout, and shake it on baby now....you got to work it out. The breath of fresh air that first blew through the three Liverpuddlians filled this world with enchanting hope and love, love me do's...it is what happened later that became a bit of a problem....

What would you do if you had missed your teenage years and gone from poverty to extreme wealth. They were successful, they were popular and people not only loved them but rightly said, many hated them. I am not sure who the religious fanatics were who burned the albums because of John Lennon's statement...went out and bought new copies or caught up with them when they let the public not only ride with them through Beatlemania, but on to BeatleMaharishnia...the whole world got a chance to see what LSD did to a band...it's old hat now...but they also got to enjoy the Magical Mystery Tour, the white album, the mantras, breath prayers and meditation...all in the public eye and of course the sad collapse for fab four moptops with Rolls Royces....it all crashed down...the Kingdom of Beatledom came to an end. (and in it's wake, the incredible 'Abbey Road,' and 'Let it be.' - Musical masterpieces, that have not since been topped!)

Sadder was the 1980 slaying by a religious lunatic (irony?) of John Lennon...it was a very sad day, and I remember dreaming that I was in John's flat crying before it all happened. We hated John, we loved him, in the end ... the love you make is equal to the love you take. (Sang Pauly)

Then Georgie porgie left us and more tears. These were the music makers in a world that is often cold and grey, they brough musical colours to our hearts and minds, they were sinners, they were lost teenagers, they lived openly before us and showed us that people are all different...now it is just Sir. Paul and Ringo Starr...and we know how much we still love them. They sang and danced at a time when it was not entirely acceptable to show one's primal feelings so openly, but now it is old news.

So, yes indeed I remember, how can I forget, but he apologized, moved on and so must we, eventually. I watched the last video, 'Imagine' and wondered to myself as John beetled around with Yoko, if he had despite all his outspoken rejection of God, finally made peace with God, through Jesus. The true Peace Maker, as Stephen Stills said once, 'The first non violent revolutionary.'



I often wonder if it was not just a wake up call. "Wake up Christians!" God has used those who are not yet his to accomplish his ends, remember Judas.



We are told not to talk too folks who have gone over to the other side, but I guess he would more than likely say something like, 'I did it my way,' unless the pathway had reached up to grab him from his imaginationing.

Love, Love, Love, all we need is JESUS! or Pascal's Wager.

.A.

There was another English band that sounded just like the Beatles. (can you imagine that), their names were 'Alwyn Wall and Malcolm Wild' and they sang a song called, 'Heaven and Hell' from their album called, 'Fool's Wisdom'

Foreverserenity,

If there was really only heaven for everyone afer we die, then we would have to scrap the Bible, most of ancient History, and all the accounts of people who have been to the otherside.

However, we have one rather awkward event that proves there is life after this one and that is the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and he taught that there was a place of eternal torment for the wicked. So whose to argue with that?

.A.
 

LW POSTS:


Hey, LW,

You may be confusing Purgatory with Limbo. The Pope recently approved a document entitled Hope of Salvation, that further explains and clarifies the Church's teaching on Limbo that infants dying without Baptism are excluded from the Beatific Vision.


The Catholic Church has infallibly defined the existence of Purgatory from Scripture and the ancient Jewish tradition and of the Church Fathers such as Origen, St.Jerome, St. Ambrose, and St. Augustine in the General Councils.

LW, think about it. Isn't it strange that the Protestant forefathers should set aside a body of testimony, both in Scripture and tradition such as for Purgatory and prayers for God's mercy of the souls there? In Christ's teachings one dogma is interwoven with another and the denial of one meant the denial of many others... and so it went back then in 1517. Luther's false theory of "justification by faith alone" led him to deny the distinction between deadly (mortal) and venial sin, the fact of temporal punishment, the necessity of good works, and the usefulness of prayers for the dead.

Furthermore, if sin is not remitted, but only "covered", if St.Paul's "new man" of the Gospel is Christ imputing His own justice to the still sinful man, it would indeed by useless to pray for the souls after death that they may be loosed from their sins. Luther's denial of Purgatory implied either the cruel doctrine that the greater number of devout Christians were lost, which accounts in some measure for the modern denial of eternal punishment, or the unwarranted assumption that God by some magical change purifies the soul at the instant of death. Now, that, when thought through to its logical conclusion is what doesn't make sense!

Most anyone can understand St.Augustine's teaching on this:

"that there are some who have departed from this life, not so bad as deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness." St.Paul speaking of slight sins to be burned away and the "soul saved so as by fire." Origen defined this as Purgatory.

"that there are some who have departed from this life, not so bad as deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness."

Where's the line, then? How bad do you have to be to be unworthy of mercy? How good do you have to be to be entitled to immediate happiness? I read James and Collosians last night, and in there somewhere it said that breaking one part of the law is breaking all of it. There isn't a middle ground. There isn't even bad and good, because all have sinned. Everyone broke the law. That's why there's no salvation in the law, only in Christ.

Hell and heaven. What makes you think there's a difference? They're both exactly what you want, seen as it really is

Good response!! For some people there is no difference! I think that would be sad for that person though. What kind of life are they living if that's their outlook? You know what I mean? Is it one of too much pain (and that's pain in the broad sense of the word that it refers to) to have hope at all.

Well, if there is such a place, its where I'll be going. So I may as well pretend there is...

Aw no way! I can't imagine you would end up there Mark! Of course in my rosy-colored glasses I don't see many of my friends or even myself there, but one never knows! It's like this, if we don't do what God says, live our lives is way, exactly his way, then we are all going there! If it's under those terms then sure enough, we're screwed! But as Gideon wrote, (not verbatim), there's God's grace, that I firmly believe in! If there's one person out there who has never sinned in their lives, I would like to meet him/her!

Take the person who has not completely expiated his sins, that is, not just had them forgiven, but made up for them, been punished for them, in this life, is to some extent "unclean". Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to qualify for heaven (which is to say his soul is spiritually alive), but that is not enough. He needs to be completely cleansed. Not "covered" and thereby declared clean, but actually be clean. It's not contrary to the Redemption by Christ to say we must be suffer (punished) of our sins, it is a matter of justice. We can and do suffer here, or hereafter, or in both places as St.Augustine wrote. For those who say that God doesn't demand expiation after having forgiven sins...think of King David. When David repented, God sent Nathan with a message to him. "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." 2Sam.12:14. Even after David's sin was forgiven, he had to undergo expiation. Can we expect less? Many may say yes, but Scripture sure doesn't teach that anywhere.. Having one's sins forgiven is not the same thing as having the punishment for them wiped out. This same works in a similiar way in our natural life here on earth. If we hit a ball and break the window...we are forgiven, but we must makes amends...pay for or replace the window. The thief who steals and is caught is forgiven, yet, in justice--must must make amends and receive his punishment. When we are young and disobey our parents, we are forgiven and yet, in justice--punished for the wrong-doing.

So it's not just about forgiveness and forgetting and hopefully not sinning again, it's about pay back? No wonder many people are confused by Christianity! And don't want to know it!

salvation comes by "accepting Christ as one's personal Savior". Aside from that one act of acceptance, no acts--meaning no good deeds and no sins---make any difference with respect to one's salvation. If one is "born-again" in fundamentalism's sense, salvation has already occurred, and nothing can keep one from heaven. If not 'born again", then one is damned.

This has always been my understanding! Then as I've always said, it's what each church/religion/division believes. It is what they are teaching their members. We all need to be on the same page!

The sinner of many years standing, who in God's mercy is pardoned on his deathbed, must in the hereafter satisfy to the last farthing (penny) his debt of temporal punishment.

And what would that be - the payback - are they aondering around lost forever, not finding peace?

I remember John Lennon making the comment " the Beetles were more popular than Jesus Christ "? Ever wonder where he got that? If we could talk to him today, I wonder what he would say? hamartanō

Perhaps because people heard thier music more than anything about God, and were more willing to hear them and not the Word of God? I'm only guessing here!

at the time--certainly over the next 10 years or so--a greater percemtage of the planet's population were more familiar with the beAtles than they were jesus. it's even possible more people liked them better than they did jesus.

Good answer!

he'd probably forgive I strongly doubt that.

But you can't speak for him so how would you know that?

We are told not to talk too folks who have gone over to the other side,

Who said that? I talk to my mom all the time!

However, we have one rather awkward event that proves there is life after this one and that is the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and he taught that there was a place of eternal torment for the wicked. So whose to argue with that?

Nope, not arguing that one at all! Just hypthetically speaking, is it here and not there? Jesus was in the wilderness and was tortured for 40 days and 40 nights, that was his hell; hell on earth! It's my belief that we all walk a thn line. It doen't take much to get anyone to slip and be on the otherside of bad or evil.

To answer the question...what if there is no hell...my initial reaction was 'so?'I don't believe in hell myself, therefore my behavior isn't influenced by the fear of it.Hell is the condition of having no alternatives.

Yes, many don't believe there is a hell. I think a lot of christians and believers have the "fear of God" put into them with the notion of a fire burning hell!

Where's the line, then? How bad do you have to be to be unworthy of mercy? How good do you have to be to be entitled to immediate happiness? I read James and Collosians last night, and in there somewhere it said that breaking one part of the law is breaking all of it. There isn't a middle ground. There isn't even bad and good, because all have sinned. Everyone broke the law. That's why there's no salvation in the law, only in Christ.

We like to have it our way, there is a middle line for a lot of people. That is how they live their lives, what makes them be able to face themselves in the mirror everyday. If there's no definition between bad and good, no distinction, then Houston, we have a problem!

There's a distinction between bad and good behaviours, but not people.

Lula posts:




Scripture itself teaches which sins are deadly. St.Paul explicitly teaches that those who commit these sins and die in a state of unrepentence will suffer the loss of eternal life in the kingdom of Heaven 1Cor.6:9-20. The Ten Commandments also come to mind.



Right. They are talking about the Old Law though as not salvific, right? Christ by His Cross changed all that by establishing His the New and Everlasting Covenant. Salvation now comes in in Faith, (believing), hope and Charity (loving) Christ, Incarnate God and keeping His commands. That's what He said, If you love me, keep my commandments. Yes, we all sin...and everytime we do, we are to immediately get ourselves back to Christ, by acknowledging our sins, by truly being sorrowful of having committed them, and by persevering in Christ not to commit them. We will be given the necessary graces to persevere, Christ promised. We are not tempted to sin beyond our capability to overcome it through Christ's grace. That's what we pray for everytime we pray the Lord's prayer..we pray "Lead us not into temptation"

Lula posts:

Foreverserenity posts:


Not so much pay back, but the first is about God's Mercy, the punishment is about His Justice.

The same can be applied to everyday life...if we do the crime, we are forgiven but must do the time...it's called temporal punishment.

We don't have to do the time, though - Christ took the penalty in our place.

So, what happens to the Christian man who accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior, and is weak and dies on his way home from committing adultery (deadly sin according to St.Paul)? Does his soul "do everlasting time" in Heaven or Hell?

So, what happens to the Christian man who accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior and is weak and dies on his way home from committing adultery of which he was immediately and truly remorseful from committing, pleaded for God's forgiveness and was determined to never do it again? Does his soul do everlasting time in Heaven or Hell?

"So, what happens to the Christian man who accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior"

Heaven.

I'd say this Christian goes to Purgatory which means Heaven eventually after paying his punishment.



Both cases go to Heaven, you say?

Did Christ die so Christians can go on sinning with impunity?


And if both go to Heaven, how do you reconcile Rev. 21:27, "there shall not enter into it (Heaven), anything defiled, or that worketh abomination, or maketh a lie"?


Or how does St.Matt. 7:21-23 apply? Here Christ says that not all those who say to Him, "Lord, Lord, will be saved, but only those who do the will of the Heavenly Father."

Is the Christian who accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior doing the will of God when he commits adultery?

I reconcile Rev. 21:27 with Christ having cleansed us, therefore we are undefiled.

No, He didn't die to let people sin. He died to set them free from sin.

As for doing the will of the Father, if you define the doing the will of the Father as never sinning then you're still stuck with nobody going to heaven.

snicker   

This is true...that's why Christ warned Christians that they'll say, "Lord, Lord,....

Yes, doing the will of the Father is not sinning..."If you love me you will keep my commandments". A Christian who commits adultery violates the Sixth Commandment of God, is not doing the will of the Father.

This is the content and meaning of walking the hard walk and entering the narrow gate. Christ did His part...now we must do ours and that is besides having faith is keeping the commandments. There is no magic formula of sinning with impunity and still entering the kingdom of Heaven. There is only faith, hope (not presumption) and charity of God and our neighbor and doing the will of the Father.

Jythier,

If I understand Protestant Fundamentalism correctly, fundamentalist's have varying views of the relationship between justification and sanctification. For some Fundamentalists, salvation comes by one-time "accepting Christ as one's personal Savior". Aside from that one act of acceptance, no works, no good deeds and no sins---make any difference with respect to one's salvation. If one is "born-again" in Fundamentalism's sense, salvation has already occurred, is assured and nothing, not even being in a state of deadly sin can keep one from heaven.

Even though St.Paul doesn't use the word sanctification in Galatians, he does speak of "falling from grace" in reference to justification which shows that he considers it an event that can be reversed. It is true that the Galatians had trouble with the ceremonial law of Israel, but they also had a moral problem. We see this in St.Paul's warning that they will lose their inheritance in the kingdom of God for moral disobedience. Gal 5: 14-21.

IN the interest of not hijacking this thread, I'll not develop this any further, just really wanted to recommend reading Galations and my reasons why.   

He died to set them free from sin.

That's what I always believed!

dies on his way home from committing adultery of which he was immediately and truly remorseful from committing,snicker

! That's so bad!lol!