What if there really is no hell?

If there really was no hell, then we've all been wasting our lives with this religion stuff.

Basically, if there's not...then we're good either way. If there is, then some of us are boned.

I think I'll just play it safe until I die.

~Zoo

If there really was no hell, then we've all been wasting our lives with this religion stuff.

This is definitely a most logical conclusion!

I think I'll just play it safe until I die.

A good thing to do! I don't think we should chance it!!

The way I see it, if there is no hell, WONDERFUL!  What's the worst that could mean?  If you read my Plan of Salvation article, you might notice there wasn't a place called "hell" in the whole thing.

The thing is, if this whole "Jesus Religion" is a lie, or "God is not real", I still say it's been a great way to live.

You raise some very stimulating thoughts, and being as it is a topic I have been studying for five to seven years, I will grant you some of my own.

I've always been told, or understood that good people go to heaven and the bad people go straight to hell!

The classification 'good people' and 'bad people' is an idea that is often misleading. All of us deserve to go to hell, because we break God's law. We are in our core rebels and children of wrath. If someone ends up in heaven it will not be because of being good or bad, but because of the grace of God.

I believe that is what is known as purgatory right?!

This idea originates from Greek Mythology and Egyptian ideas, which are expressed quite well in Dante's Inferno. It however is not a doctrine of Christianity, but rather one that came out of Roman Catholicism.

Hell, the place of fire and brimstone, where the devil lives, where anything that is evil dwells, where exactly is this bottomless pit?

It is quite easy to confuse Hell (Hades/Sheol) with the Lake of Fire (Gehenna/Tophet), many do. Satan does not live in Hades. He was cast down upon our planet and is God's worst enemy and should be ours to. He will eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire, but it is only Hollywood who places Satan in Hades/Sheol. The other crazy thing I have seen in the movies, especially Scary Movie (which is a spoof), is to damn satan to hell, and to damn demons to hell. Jesus taught that when they go out they go to dry places (wildernesses seem to be places that devils like.) and then when they have linked up with their brothers they try to come back into the home (body of a person).

Don't you think it probably takes a long time for people who die to actually get to heaven, I mean, it's not like it's around the corner right?

You need to remember that our world is bound by time and space and function. Yet the world we are going to is infinte and therefore everything is wound up already. Those who are in the Lake of Fire are there arleady, those who are in Heaven are all there already. It might be strange to think it but you and I are already at our chosen destinations. Is this stretching it a bit to far? I don't think so. Great question for a Tuesday.



.A.

I still say it's been a great way to live.

Ted,
Pascal's wager has always fascinated me too.

If we have the Spirit of Christ in us, we are definitely HIS and wherever He is we will be. Whether we are changed or we die, we will ever be with the Lord. Those who have not the Spirit of Christ are none of His, and will go to a lonely place out of the presense of the Lord.

.A.

No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

------john lennon, "imagine"

john lennon

Have you read the biography by his ex-wife and son Julian? It is an eye opener and changed the way I look at songs like this.

.A.

"There's a lot of cruelty (his) and bitterness (hers) in this book by the late Beatle's first wife and mother of his elder son, Julian Lennon. A rehash of the Beatles' beginnings from the wife's point of view, the book reveals that Lennon was a pretty messed-up guy who preached universal love for the world and ignored his own family. Saddest, of course, is the effect of all this on Julian, who writes the introduction and praises Mum for her courage and love. Three marriages later, though, Cynthia still burns with anger — mostly at Yoko Ono, whom she believes brainwashed John. When asked if she was sorry she'd fallen in love with the singer-songwriter in the first place, she writes, 'If I'd known as a teenager what falling for John Lennon would lead to, I would have turned round right then and walked away.' If only she had let him be." Publishers Weekly (Copyright Reed Business Information, Inc.)

Kingbee (smoking da blues ay),

I got a chance to read the introduction while I waiting for the mixes of my new album, and it was actually quiet startling. I don't think I will ever look at pictures of John Lennon the same.

The book was simply called, 'JOHN' by Cynthia Lennon, with the forward by Julian. (...they loved John, but the question is...did John.... all that 'Love, Love, Love' stuff was rooted in the Shakespearian myth of falling in love, plus John so heavily into himself.) What am I saying, John was the best...he wrote such great songs...but...oh, man, I shoudn't have read that book...it spoiled the illusion.)

As Neil Young sings, 'It was a HIPPIE DREAM'...all that LSD and TM really screwed up so many young minds. I read something lately about George Harrisson's reaction when he arrived in the US, to view psychedelia and it's apparent revolution and all he saw was burned out drug addicts, losers on the human highway, vegetable carnage...not all the stuff that had been broadcasted as art, music and love, peace and joy...it was all just a HIPPIE DREAM....power to the people, imagine there's no heaven, no hell below us, above us only sky...oh please.

.A.

I hate that hymn to the slave state of Communism... but I have to admit, Lennon was one heckuva song writer.

It's pretty much the business card of Saturn. ('Our money says in God we trust, but it's against the laws to pray in school, they say we beat the Russians to the moon, and I say you starved your children to do it, they say all men are equal all men are brothers, but tell me why are the rich more equal than others, don't ask me for the answers, I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.' - Larry Norman).

.A.

The question of hell is basically the same as the question of God.  If there is none, then no problem.  If there is one, best to walk the straight and narrow. For in the end, we will all leave this life.  And if there is no God or Hell, then we are no worse off than the people who live evil lives.  If there is, we may be better off.

If you read my Plan of Salvation article, you might notice there wasn't a place called "hell" in the whole thing.

I'll have to go seek it out!

The thing is, if this whole "Jesus Religion" is a lie, or "God is not real", I still say it's been a great way to live.

Can you imagine if it wasn't, seriously?! I don't want to think about that!

The classification 'good people' and 'bad people' is an idea that is often misleading. All of us deserve to go to hell, because we break God's law. We are in our core rebels and children of wrath. If someone ends up in heaven it will not be because of being good or bad, but because of the grace of God.

Yeah, the definition on who is good and who is bad would be according to what each of us have learned.

No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today

I love this song! It does delve into the realm of imagination. It goes to show how many people have wondered at the same thing!


I haven't read that book.

If there is none, then no problem. If there is one, best to walk the straight and narrow. For in the end, we will all leave this life. And if there is no God or Hell, then we are no worse off than the people who live evil lives. If there is, we may be better off.

What if we were all actually angels who got caught up and blind-sided by the ways of Lucifer and were kicked out of heaven to live our lives as humans until we get it right? Those of us who repent and live the way God wants us to live find our way back home, those of us who don't still get a chance to try and try again.....God's grace. And if we don't repent then hey, we're thrown in to the fire! How's that for imagination?! Not to mention how that would mess up the idea of the Creation story! Of course this is all just my imagination at work!lol!

Ah, Pascal's wager in modified form.

But is a faith based on Pascal's wager a genuine faith? I can't decide this, I'll have to leave it up to the individual.

I thought gambling was sinful?

Depends upon who you are. I mean, Catholics-Bingo? No restrictions on us!

Yes, there certainly is a hell. That hell exists on earth and people who endure hell are usually from two distinct groups: Children and women who endure hell due to abuse and neglect (and many endure this hell daily). The other group consists of people who make/find life a living hell due to their bad choices, depression caused by life pressures and circumstances (depression makes hell look cosy), and those who make life difficult for themselves.

That's a very rough summation of hell but it exists on earth not in a cavern with fiery ovens or a horned satan. It exists in our lives.

FOREVERSERENITY,

Thank you for writing the article; it's good and jammed packed with thought provoking questions.

You ask:




As a baptized member of Jesus' religion, I was taught that there are four last things: Death, Judgment, Heaven or Hell. For me, it makes perfect sense to believe in the existence of God, of Heaven, of Satan and Hell.

The eternal nature of Hell is stressed in the New Testament. In the Gospel of St.Mark, Christ Himself warns us "it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." In the Book of the Apocalypse, we read, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

So, if one believe Christ, Hell isn't just a theoretical possibility. He warned us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hared, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." These are very sobering words and not from some movie actor or famous singer, wouldn't you agree?

What do Christ's words mean? They are unequivical in affirming the existence of Hell and its eternity. In St.Matt. 25:46, Christ speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment. Elsewhere, Scripture tells that immediately after death, our soul is judged and if found in the state of deadly sin, descend into Hell, where they suffer the punishments of "eternal fire"; the chief one of which is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

We are to judge one another as "good" or "bad" according to our words and actions as in behavior, that's all. That's what our laws are designed to do...and to take it further, if our laws are 'good', then they are harmonial with GOd's laws.

We are not to judge one another's heart or soul, that' up to God alone, the Supreme Judge.

How God will judge us is laid out in easy to understand terms in St.Matt. 25: 31-46. Well worth the read.

FOREVERSERENITY POSTS:


AERYCK POSTS:

Aeryck,

You say that Purgatory originates from Greek mythology and Egyptian ideas? Got any specifics, ie back-up on that? I say Catholic teaching on Purgatory is based on many passages from Scripture and on the uninterrupted Jewish tradition of prayer for the dead carried forward in the Church.

Really, Aeryck---Purgatory is not a doctrine of Christianity??? And if I read you correctly----you seem to be asserting that Roman Catholicism isn't of Christianity either! If so, whoa your horses! That's under the lid for another discussion.

One out of three ain't that bad though! You are correct that Catholicism defined Purgatory.

First of all, we know from Scripture, Apoc. 21:27, that nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in Heaven and while we may die with our deadly sins forgiven, there can still be venial sins upon our soul. Purgatory is that state of purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of Heaven, which is only experienced by those who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified.

True, the word Purgatory is found no where in Scripture and neither are the words Trinity and Incarnation, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Same thing with the existence of Purgatory. St. Paul tells that when we are judged each man's work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man's work fails the test? "he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire". 1Cor.3:15.

Why would anyone go to Purgatory? To be purified, for "nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. ANyone who has not been made completely freed of sin and its effects is to some extent "unclean".

Aeryck, just so you know, I do believe that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the Cross. But that doesn't settle the question of how His redemption is applied to us. Scripture tells us that it is applied to us over time through the process of sanctification through which the baptized Christian is made holy.


FOREVERSERENITY WRITES:

ADNAUSEUM ALSO:



This is how I would address your mention that Hell is on earth becasue of suffering and pain.

In continuing my comments to Aeryck, sanctification involves suffering, Romans 5:3-5, and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we can enter Heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ's applying to us the purifying redemption that He accomplished for us by His death on the Cross.

There is no contradiction in this. OUr suffering in sanctification does not take away from the Cross, rather, the Cross produces our santification which results in our suffering, becasue "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness." Hebrews 12:11.

Anyway, Purgatory makes sense becasue there is a requirement that a soul dnot just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean before a man can enter into eternal life.

Purgatory makes no sense, because Jesus separated our sins from us as far as the east is from the west, our sins are cleansed by His blood. Sanctification is something that happens on Earth, the process of living more and more like Christ. Basically, what you're saying is that by works you go to Heaven but if your works aren't there you go to Purgatory then to heaven? Either works get you into heaven or they don't. This third option of having a little stop off to be burnt in fire before going to heaven doesn't make sense. The scriptures you bring forth are referring to life on Earth, not the afterlife. Discipline is only for sanctification as we live - there is no condemnation for our sins.

At least, that's what I understand of it.

No hell? then it's....


PARTY TIME!   

But is a faith based on Pascal's wager a genuine faith? I can't decide this, I'll have to leave it up to the individual.

I would do the same Gid, be undecided because it would be up to the individual and what they believe, it would be their choice.
Jythier:

I thought gambling was sinful?

Doc:

Depends upon who you are. I mean, Catholics-Bingo? No restrictions on us!

Doesn't most churches gamble anyway? Not just bingo night or some other form of raffle for charity purposes, but in the people they are trying to convert? Taking chances is quite a game!


AD:

Yes, there certainly is a hell. That hell exists on earth and people who endure hell are usually from two distinct groups: Children and women who endure hell due to abuse and neglect (and many endure this hell daily). The other group consists of people who make/find life a living hell due to their bad choices, depression caused by life pressures and circumstances (depression makes hell look cosy), and those who make life difficult for themselves.That's a very rough summation of hell but it exists on earth not in a cavern with fiery ovens or a horned satan. It exists in our lives.

Lula:

This is how I would address your mention that Hell is on earth becasue of suffering and pain. In continuing my comments to Aeryck, sanctification involves suffering, Romans 5:3-5, and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we can enter Heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ's applying to us the purifying redemption that He accomplished for us by His death on the Cross. There is no contradiction in this. OUr suffering in sanctification does not take away from the Cross, rather, the Cross produces our santification which results in our suffering, becasue "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness." Hebrews 12:11.

Thanks AD! That's what I referred to as well. The possiblility that hell is not somewhere else, it is here. It is what each person experience in their lives when they go through trying times, pain, anything that drains the human spirit! Could this be what Jesus was referring to then, hell on earth because isn't this where Lucifer was thrown when he was thrown out of the Kingdom of God? Who decided that there was fire, and all that, who created this place of continuous pain, and torture? Wouldn't that be man? Man's religion? The many that there are out there, aren't they the ones who created these imagiry?

Sure all those quotes from the bibles and the scriptures that were written have their own interpretation. But could it be anything more simple than here on earth itself? Why else do we go through all that we do?

Thank you for writing the article; it's good and jammed packed with thought provoking questions.

Thx! It's a topic I've thought about from time to time.

Basically, what you're saying is that by works you go to Heaven but if your works aren't there you go to Purgatory then to heaven? Either works get you into heaven or they don't.

I think it's a bit of both Jythier, works and of course the requirement of being born again.

Hell yeah!



~Zoo

No hell? then it's....PARTY TIME!

! Bring on the beers!

Beers? Or deBeers?