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Jesus, Son of G-d or Satan's greatest trick?

Jesus, Son of G-d or Satan's greatest trick?

So Satan sitting in his home listening to the screams of the tormented with a smile on his face, decided the Jews were to close to G-d, and this really angered him, he had to find a way to divide the damned Jews, after all G-d decided they were his chosen people and what better target for his evil deeds than watering down the religion, Now Satan had great power, let us not forget that after all he was arch Angel, most high, one of the three named Angels that sat at G-ds side at one time.

So along comes this good man Jesus was his name, he had many good things to say and the people listened, so first Satan hardened the hearts of the Rabbis, made them jealous of Jesus and his huge following, then Satan allowed some minor so called miracles to happen, an easy task for one as powerful as Lucifer. Satan also knew of the prophecy of the Messiah, and he thought what a great idea if he could trick the Jews into believing that Jesus was the Messiah, he could one, break up the tribes of Israel, really anger G-d whom Lucifer hated beyond all things and of course lead people away from the one true faith of Judaism. Needless to say his plan worked the people of Israel {some} believed the Messiah had come, the Rabbis who Lucifer had tricked into believing this good man was a threat to their power played their part perfectly and had the Romans crucify Jesus {all part of the prophecy} Some years after the death of Jesus, Christianity was born, Jesus NEVER claimed to be a Christian, he was circumcised in the Jewish religion and took Bar mitzvah at 13 again following the Jewish religion. Never once did he or his disciples call what Jesus was preaching Christianity, what he was preaching was Judaism in it purest form, with stress on the 10 commandments as a way to live your life. Did this really happen? I have no Idea, but it is no more believable or unbelievable than Jesus being the Human Son of G-d. Meanwhile we Jews of the one true faith are still waiting for the Messiah to arrive and on that day there will be much celebrating, for we have waiting patiently a very long time for this to happen.

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Reply #151 Top
sc posts #129
Really, though, the idea of celibate priests and the concept of celibacy being "Biblical and heroic" is laughable and best, and ridiculous at worst.



AD POSTS: Yes it would be a miracle to keep the priesthood from Aaron going on through generations through celibacy!


The Jewish Aaronic priesthood of the Old Covenant is a type of the priesthood of the New and Eternal Covenant.


Aaron was the grandson of Levi and elder brother of Moses. I think of him as the supreme pontiff of the Jews, that is their first High Priest, as St.Peter was of the Christians, both Divinely selected.

Aaron was selected by God to offer sacrifices at the altar to be mediator between the Jews and God and was chief representative of the 12 tribes of Israel before God. St.Peter, who was first pontiff, was selected by Christ to be the chief representative of the 12 Apostles.

According to Lev. 28, Aaron and his sons formed the Divine priesthood of the Old Law. St.Paul in Hebrews 7:17, said it was a priesthood "according to carnal commandment" and destined to give way to the priesthood according to Melchisdech (Ps. 109), a priesthood without genealogy, restored in Christ.

Moses consecrated Aaron as High Priest, his sons as priests and the other men from the tribe of Levi as ministers of the Sanctuary and the service of the Tabernacle. The priestly office was hereditary in Aaron's family.

The High Priest is the spiritual head of the people, the visible representative of God. He had the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies once a year, and later on of anointing kings.

The priests had the right and duty to offer sacrifices, to enter the Sanctuary, to keep the lights burning of the 7 branched candlestick and the sacred fire for the burnt offerings, to bless the people and pray for them, and to instruct them in the law.

the Levites were the assistants to the priests. They might not enter the Sanctuary, but had to guard the Tabernacle and later on the Temple. They assisted with the sacrifices, sacred canticles, and the instruction of the people, and purified the sacred vessels.

The priests were to be holy, the High Priest the most holy. "Let them, therefore, be holy becasue I am holy, said the Lord. Lev. 21:8. Whenever they had service to perform in the Sanctuary, they had under pain of death to keep away from their wives and guard against all defilement. This purity of life was signified by their white tunic, and purity of intention by their white turban or tiara. The bells on his tunic which sounded when he walked reminded him he had to be a witness to the true faith.

As their was a graduation in the former Aaronic priesthood, there is the same in the New Covenant priesthood. In the order according to Melchisedeck, Christ is the Eternal High Priest, the Pope bishops are the High Priests, under the order of jurisdiction, and power of ruling, then priests, deacons or ministers.

The Jewish priesthood was propagated by natural descent, the Christian by a spiritual descent, by means of Holy Orders. The Jewish priests could offer only typical sacrifices, Christian priests offer up the true Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. See Malachais 1:11: "For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for My name is great among the Gentiles said the Lord of Hosts."

The Jewish priesthood partook of earthly meat-offerings, the Christian receive the priceless Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Divine Savior. The jewish priests prayed for the people, Christian priests remember them daily at Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and give their blessings to the faithful.



Reply #152 Top
Lula posts
refute your assertion that St.Paul continued practicing Old Covenant Judaism after his conversion to Christianity.

AD POSTS:

Lula,

I have listed several verses that support my assertion that Paul DID observe and continued to observe Torah after his 'conversion' which were HIS words not mine. My conclusion is either I am to believe Paul kept Torah or he is a liar.


AD,

You certainly have an interesting way of putting things.   

Well, St.Paul certainly isn't a liar becasue everything in Sacred Scripture is inspired of God. Please remember on St.Paul keeping the Torah, my initial reply was Yes and No...and I explained what I meant by that.

Saul of Tarsus became St.Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles. The religious teaching of St.Paul must be looked at first in the OT as interpreted by the Pharisaic rabbis of his time. The doctrines of prividence and athe divine ordering of the world, reward and punishment beyond the grave, the resurrection of the dead, the Decalogue, charity toward God and men, belief in angels and demons, were all part of the spiritual patrimony St. Paul inherited as Jew and as a Pharisee.

What is typically Christian in his teachings owes to the teachings of Christ. St.Paul developed his religious attitude first from the treasure of Old Covenant Judaism, and then perfected by Christ, St.Paul acquired a deeper sense of God and the sense of sin.

In proclaiming Christ, dead and alive, as the only power of salvation, St.Paul encountered 2 chief doctrinal obstacles--The "wisdom" of the Gentile, and the "law" of the Jew.

The Gentiles proposed reason as a saving power. St.Paul praises wisdom of God in Christ crucified. He tells us that salvation doesn't rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God in Christ. Therefore, the Gospel is essentially a divine force, not a form of human reasoning.

The Judaizers posed the Law, both moral and ceremonial as a cause of salvation. St.Paul saw that the Christian, by God's magnanimity, fully and personally recieves Christ, who alone becomes the principal of saving life. The Law leaves man without hope. It has no power in itself to save, rather it condemns.

Being itself holy, Rom. 7:12, and spiritual 7:14, it reveals man in his sinful state. Thus it works wrath, 4:15, makes sin abound, 5:20, is the power of sin 1Cor 15:56, brings knowledge of sin Rom 3:20; 7:7, and is a curse Gal. 3:13.

These aspects of the Law died in Christ Rom. 7:4, Gal. 2:19. and in St. Paul through Baptism. WIth Christ, the Law was nailed to the Cross and died, Col. 4:14. The Law is for the unjust not the just 1Tim 1:9. It serves as a negative, protective pedagogue Gal. 3:24, to those not fully in the faith. 3:25. or as an expression of the true faith informed by charity for those wholly committed to Christ. 5:6.

Such independence from the Law Rom. 3:21-28, is demanded by the gratuity of Redemption. Man, in Original Sin, is radically unable to save himself. History and Sacred Scripture attest universal sin Rom 3:1-18. At best, his egocentric autonomy inclines him to turn his law-keeping into a self-redemptive effort, Rom. 10:3, Phil 3:4-9. Only through that faith that is total committment to Christ can man accept salvation aka Justification.

The life and death struggle for the early Church between the Law and Christian freedom in difficult to over estimate. Had the early Christian community succumbed to the Judaizer's insistence upon the law as a means of salvation, there would be no Christianity today. Providentially, St. Paul arose as the man preeminently qualified to transplant Christianity, without destroying any of its roots, from the ancient earth of Israel to fertile, Gentile soil.

Reply #153 Top

to answer the question about what we Jews do to pay for our sins we do Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, we fast completely from sunset to sunset, the have a feast to celebrate our rebirth.

 

Ok Kids I am leaving to Florida now, see you all Tuesday!! till then be kind to each other no matter what religion you are!!!!

Reply #154 Top
to answer the question about what we Jews do to pay for our sins we do Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, we fast completely from sunset to sunset, the have a feast to celebrate our rebirth.


MM, I'm not sure you can expel upon this more but in my research regarding the New Moons this was also a time to ask for forgiveness and repent. This is a hard area to find much information as a lot of it was lost after the second Babylonial Exile. I thought I would pick your brain about this subject.
Reply #155 Top
Ok Kids I am leaving to Florida now, see you all Tuesday!! till then be kind to each other no matter what religion you are!!!!


Have a safe journey my friend and be abundantly blessed!
Reply #156 Top
Ok Kids I am leaving to Florida now,


Yes, traveling mercies...and I'm sure LW will join with me in saying double check your luggage....don't bring any of those huge palmetto bugs back home.
Reply #157 Top
WIth Christ, the Law was nailed to the Cross and died, Col. 4:14.


So you are saying that Paul said the Law (Torah) was nailed to the cross. Then Paul is a liar.

My response:

The reference is Col 2:14 not 4:14 for those following this thread.

The greek has the word dogma - a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical) -- decree, ordinance. (biblebrowser.com).

If Paul meant Torah the greek word 'nomos' would have been used.

Here is my interpretation for this is Paul is again talking about salvation. It is written without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (Heb. 9:22). Jesus became our sin sacrifice. It is HIS ultimate sacrifice to pay for our sins once and for all! The sin sacrifice still exists but now through him the perpetual sacrifice (Heb. 10:12). So the Torah is still in existence here just the ceremonial aspect of sacrificing a lamb is no longer necessary.
Reply #158 Top
So the Torah is still in existence here just the ceremonial aspect of sacrificing a lamb is no longer necessary.


This is so totally Seventh Day Adventist Teaching.

I agree with alot you say as well AD, but our difference would be the keeping of the Torah. I'm with Lula on this one.

I was an Adventist so I'm familiar with their teachings and I disagree also with their take on the OT law. I also know they spend alot of time in the OT in comparison to the New.

The greek has the word dogma - a law


Yes, this is true. The word for 2:14 is dogma. Did you know that Josephus uses dogma for the Mosaic law? I'm not familiar with "nomos" and can't find it in my Greek dictionary of the NT. Can you tell me where it's used?

Further the word "handwriting" is "cheirographon" and literally means "handwritten." What does this mean to you? I got this from my Gk dictionary:

"specifically a note of hand or writing in which one acknowledges that money has either been deposited with him or lent to him by another to be returned at an appointed time....metaphorically applied in Col 2:14 to the Mosaic law which shows men to be chargeable with offences for which they must pay the penalty."

This has a sense of promissory note. The note which testifies against us is cancelled. The phrase is obviously based on a thought which is common to Judaism namely that God keeps an account of man's debt and that He imposes the penalty. God has forgiven sins. He has cancelled the note of indebtedness by taking it and fixing it to the cross of Christ.

Did you know that the idea of canceling a promissory note has been abundantly illustrated by the ancient Egyptian papryi discovered in modern times? I find it ineresting that it was generally customary to cancel a bond or other document by crossing it out with the Greek cross letter (X).

Reply #160 Top
Lula posts:
WIth Christ, the Law was nailed to the Cross and died, Col. 4:14.


AD POSTS:
So you are saying that Paul said the Law (Torah) was nailed to the cross. Then Paul is a liar.

My response:

The reference is Col 2:14 not 4:14 for those following this thread.

The greek has the word dogma - a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical) -- decree, ordinance. (biblebrowser.com).

If Paul meant Torah the greek word 'nomos' would have been used.


Here is my interpretation for this is Paul is again talking about salvation. It is written without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (Heb. 9:22). Jesus became our sin sacrifice. It is HIS ultimate sacrifice to pay for our sins once and for all! The sin sacrifice still exists but now through him the perpetual sacrifice (Heb. 10:12). So the Torah is still in existence here just the ceremonial aspect of sacrificing a lamb is no longer necessary.


AD,

Thanks for the correction. It is Col 2:14, not 4:14.

Yes, St.Paul tells us in Col 2:13-14 that the law was nailed to the Cross. V. 14 indicates how Christ acheived by dying on the Cross is the only mediator between God and men. All who were under the yoke of sin and the Law have been set free through His death. V. 15 makes it clear that at the Cross Christ triumpthed over the "principalities and powers" (fallen angels) are totally subordinate to the triumpth of Christ.

Here it is:
"And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiving us all our tresspasses, 14 having cancelled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this He set aside, nailing it to the Cross."

The reason St.Paul is writing is becasue the Colossians are being told the erroneous idea that the rite of circumcision is a necessity for Gentiles to embrace Christianity. Against this, St. Paul that only Baptism, the "circumcsion of Christ" has the power to give us eternal life and to forgive sins and the reason for this is that we have been liberated from the slavery of sin and the Law, and therefore it is no longer necessary to observe the countless precepts which OC Judaism added to the Decalogue over the years, making the law something impossible to adhere to --a kind of sentence of condemnation.

The Mosaic Law, to which the scribes and Pharisees added so many precepts as to make it unbearable, had become (to use St.Paul's comparison) like a charge sheet against man, becasue it imposed heavy burdens but did not provide the grace needed for bearing them. The Apostle very graphically says, that this charge sheet or "bond" was set aside and nailed to the Cross---making it perfectly clear to all that Christ made more than ample satisfaction for our sins.


Colossians v. 16-18 might be of interest re certain feasts. the text point to the abuses which were in evidence at COlossae due to the inroads of pre-Gnostic heresies. These abuses had basically to do with abstention from certain kinds of foods, celebration of certain feasts, and exaggerated veneration of angelic spirits.

The days of the new moon Lev. 23:24 were Jewish festivals which went back to the nomadic period. In Saul's time they had become traditional feasts celebrated with a sacred meal and the offering of sacrifice. 1 Sam 20:24. Later, Ezekiel 46: 3 specified certain liturgical and sacrificial rites to be celebrated in the Temple at the start of each month.

The "sabbath" was the weekly Jewish holy day, a day kept for Yahweh, which He Himself had sanctified Ex. 20:11, It was a day devoted to rest, and prayer, and was marked by religious rites and ceremonies.

Abstinence from certain food and drink was carefully regulated in the OT. Lev. 10:9; 11:1-47; Num. 6:3. as were the festivals to be celebrated in Yahweh's honor Num 28:1-6, These prescriptions were not meant to be permanent, they were designed to prepare the chosen people for the coming of the Messiah. In the new stage of salvation history inaugurated by Christ it is no longer necessary to continue to burden men's consciences with out of date regulations. Gal 4:9-10.

St.Paul explains this by using a simile: the Old Law is as it were the shadow of the New Law promulgated by Christ. A shadow indicates that a body is present. The Mosaic law, the shadow, had the function of marking the way until the coming of Christ. But now that He has come and promulgated the New Law, it would not make sense to give greater impirtance to the shadow than to the body which casts it.

The Apostle corrects the abuses which have developed in conncetion with fasting and abstinence, but he is not saying that these penitential practices are wrong. for Jesus Himself practiced them. St.Matt. 4:2. and taught His followers to do so. St.Matt. 16:16-18.
Reply #161 Top
Response to Lula:

These abuses had basically to do with abstention from certain kinds of foods, celebration of certain feasts, and exaggerated veneration of angelic spirits.


therefore it is no longer necessary to observe the countless precepts which OC Judaism added to the Decalogue over the years, making the law something impossible to adhere to --a kind of sentence of condemnation.


it is no longer necessary to continue to burden men's consciences with out of date regulations.


Are you suggesting that Torah is out of date and is no longer necessary to observe?


Reply #162 Top
Are you suggesting that Torah is out of date and is no longer necessary to observe?


No, never out of date. The Torah in and of itself is timeless because it's the Pentateuch, the first Five Books of the OT which forms the constitution of the Jews, our ancestors in faith. The Torah is part of the historical core of the priceless Judeo-Christian religious heritage. We can derive much profit if we see it as setting the pattern our ancestors followed in their worship of God, the first part of God's plan of salvation history.

The Torah is full of lessons for us to learn today. It tells us that God wants to be close to us, for us to observe the Commandments for they keep us in His presence..obeying them keeps us from the bondage of sin which is what it means to be truly free.

Yes, many of its laws, ceremonies, rites and liturgical practices are no longer necessary for us to observe for they had to do with the Temple and Temple worship. The theology is limited as it was for special people in a very special time. They didn't have the fullness of Revelation granted through Jesus Christ. THe Old Law was brought to its fullness once and for all by the teaching and life, Death and Resurrection of Christ.

Reply #163 Top
Yes, many of its laws, ceremonies, rites and liturgical practices are no longer necessary for us to observe for they had to do with the Temple and Temple worship. The theology is limited as it was for special people in a very special time. They didn't have the fullness of Revelation granted through Jesus Christ. THe Old Law was brought to its fullness once and for all by the teaching and life, Death and Resurrection of Christ.


Lula,

Here is what I gather from your statements regarding Paul. Which are direct violation against Torah. I am still concluding that you say Paul is a liar.

-Not to add or SUBTRACT from Torah (Deut 4:2)
-To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3)
Reply #164 Top

Yes, this is true. The word for 2:14 is dogma. Did you know that Josephus uses dogma for the Mosaic law? I'm not familiar with "nomos" and can't find it in my Greek dictionary of the NT. Can you tell me where it's used?


Matt 5:17
Romans 3:31
Matt 7:12
Gal. 5:14

These are just a few.


Reply #165 Top
Laws of Torah:

Not to add or SUBTRACT from Torah (Deut 13:1) If what you say about Paul is correct than Paul is subtracting from Torah.


My, you're a stickler for details.   

Technically speaking, couldn't we say there was no adding or substracting going on in St. Paul's day...the Old Law was a phase that was fulfilled, completed by Christ.

Through Moses came the Law, the ceremonial and judicial precepts of God, as well as the prohibitory mandates. Through Christ came grace, the unmerited love and favor of God. Moses was the teacher of Isreal, Christ, the Teacher of all nations. The COmmandments are Moses in the teaching sense, whereas the Sermon on the MOunt is Christ; one forbids, the other enjoins, one is the negative, the other is the positive phase of God's law of life.

The Commandments, being basic Divine principles, are eternal being applicable to all peoples during all times. But they were not new to man when Moses brought them down from Mt. Sinai on tablets of stone, as God had implemented them in the hearts of all human beings..(called the Natural, Moral Law). What was new came after 15 centuries after Moses, when Christ gave the Commandments new spiritual import, calling the application of them at a higher moral level than is natural to man.
Reply #166 Top
What does this mean to you?


I see this as I do in our modern day system. If I am given a ticket for speeding then my 'written offense' is the ticket not the law. I received the writ against me because I broke the law of the land.

It was our disobedience that we receive a writ against us (by the two witnesses of Heaven and Earth Deut. 30:19). For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23, Cross Gen 2:17). With out the shedding of Blood there can be no remission of sin (Heb 9:22 cross Lev. 17:11).

Jesus paid the penalty for my sin at Passover about 1,974 years ago. It HIS blood that is paying the price of my sin when I ask for forgiveness.
Reply #167 Top
My, you're a stickler for details.


I like things to be clear.

Reply #168 Top
Technically speaking, couldn't we say there was no adding or substracting going on in St. Paul's day...the Old Law was a phase that was fulfilled, completed by Christ.


[stickler on]

Technically speaking I have said Paul neither added nor subtracted Torah stating that upheld and upholds Torah.

With all due of respect it is you I am trying to get a clearer understanding from. If the 'Old Law' as you say was a phase then what about:

-Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant (Ex 31:16).
-It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood (Lev. 3:17).
-And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even (Num. 19:21).
-And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations (Gen 9:12)

And for the Grand Finale!

-One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD (Num 15:15)
-And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month (Lev 23:41).

What does 'for ever' mean to you Lula?
Reply #169 Top
The Hebrew word in the previous verses is 'Olawm' with the Strong's definition:

alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Compliments of biblebrowser.com
Reply #170 Top
WIth Christ, the Law was nailed to the Cross and died,


it is no longer necessary to continue to burden men's consciences with out of date regulations.


It tells us that God wants to be close to us, for us to observe the Commandments for they keep us in His presence..obeying them keeps us from the bondage of sin which is what it means to be truly free.


It is hard to imagine that these ideas and concepts coexist in the same huamn's brain.

The Law died, no longer necessary And God wants us to obey it to free us from our sins. Ooh .... and Christ removed our sins by his Crucification and by his blood.

what a contradiction !!!!!
Reply #171 Top
With all due of respect it is you I am trying to get a clearer understanding from. If the 'Old Law' as you say was a phase then what about:

-Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant (Ex 31:16).


I know you're addressing Lula AD but can I interject here? I'm hoping you're saying ok...lol. I'll take your first entry and your last.

31:16

The Sabbath was made a sign of God's unique relationship with Israel as his own people. The importance of this sign is seen in the insistence of later prophets that Sabbath keeping was an indication of the spiritual condition of the people (Jer 17:19-27, Ezek 20:12-24).

Now if you go back to where the Sabbath was first given to Israel 20:8-11 you'd see in v 11 the word for (waw). This verse explains why they were to keep the Sabbath.

The Sabbath served as a holy day and a day of rest for both man and animals commemorating God's rest after his work of creation. The Jews celebrated God's finished work of creation and the Christians God's finished work of redemption. That's why the Christians started to celebrate on the Lord's Day or the First Day of the Week. The Sabbath was NEVER given to the Christians. Never. In fact this is the only one of the 10 Commandments not repeated after the day of Pentecost.

Christ was the reality of the shadow of the OT Sabbath. Christ is our Sabbath. He is our rest. Come all that are heavy burdened, I will give you rest he said.

Paul said in Romans 14:5:

"One man esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

In this whole section in Romans Paul discusses the proper attitude Christians should have toward each other in debatable areas of conduct. He says that we are not to judge one another in such matters because God has received both the weaker and stronger believer because we can differ in good conscience and because we shall all be judged by God.

And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month (Lev 23:41).


I did a wonderful study (still have the notes) spending a whole year or more studying the seven feasts of Lev 23. I used both a Christian and Jewish source to get both sides of this. It was very interesting probably the most interesting of all my studies combined. In these seven feasts spoke the whole redemptive career of Christ. Four fulfilled the last three not yet. Have you seen this to be true AD?

This Autumn feast will be celebrated during the Millennium and I believe as it says here forever. You can see this in Zech 14:16. You can see there all the nations Jews and Gentiles will celebrate this then.

Reply #172 Top
That's why the Christians started to celebrate on the Lord's Day or the First Day of the Week.


KFC,

Do you believe Paul observed and taught that Sabbath is on first day or on the seventh day?

If so then based on your words, Paul contradicts himself and makes himself either untrustworthy or worse a liar (speaking with a forked tongue).

Four fulfilled the last three not yet. Have you seen this to be true AD?


I see Messiah in the spring feasts, I am in agreement with you here. Where I know we disagree is....

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me (Luke 22:19).

Luke records this account of Passover.

My take is that Do is an active verb. The question here is do what?

I believe KFC we had a not quite so in depth discussion about this a while back. Jesus was observing Passover a feast that is perpetual (Lev 23:21 regarding all feasts).

In the Passover Seder the third cup is about redemption Jesus' blood redeeming us from sin. The fourth cup in a seder is the cup of Messiah's return to us to take us out. This is the cup the Jesus was unable to drink from because it couldn't be fulfilled yet (since we still be here).

You can see this in Zech 14:16. You can see there all the nations Jews and Gentiles will celebrate this then.


Here's what I perplexes me the most about you KFC. You said earlier that the Torah is done away with but NOW you are telling me that the fall feasts (Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles) are not fulfilled.

-Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill (Matt 5:17).
- For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (nomos), till all be fulfilled (Matt 5:18).

You just said that ALL is not fulfilled but earlier you did.
Reply #173 Top
AD,

Now with this latest, you are attempting to parse out my every word so that you can somehow make your point that St.Paul kept every word the Torah after he was converted and baptised in the Christian faith.

We've been up, down and all around on this.

The Old Law was the first phase of God's salvation plan for His first chosen people. It was which was completed by Christ's Redemptive work which opened up salvation to all nations.

Those who believe in Christ, which certainly describes St.Paul, are not engrafted into the defunct nation of Old Israel, but rather into Christ Himself, who is the seed of Abraham and the perfection of the Abrahamic covenant. This new covenant people which is the Mystical Body of Christ, includes all nations that follow Him.

The New Testament does not speak of one Old Covenant with stages of development, but rather the dramatic end of the religious ceremonies and rites of OLd COvenant and the beginning of the New and Eternal Covenant in the Blood of Christ. St.Paul teaches infallibly upon this...Gal. 3: 16-27.

In short, the fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham is seen in Christ, who is Abraham's seed, not in the law of Moses.

The purpose of the Law was to teach, to be a pedagogue and to punish transgression UNTIL CHRIST SHOULD COME. The Law could not of itself give life, but it did prepare the way for the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham and the giving of life (sanctifying grace) and faith with the coming of Christ.

That is, since Christ we are no longer under the Mosaic Law, the Pedagogue. For now, faith has come and the baptized who have faith in Christ are the children of God and the heirs to the Abrahamic covenant perfected in Christ.

There is no separate group of unbaptized Jewish children of God living alongside baptized Christians within the same covenantal people. For while the Jewish people remain "most dear to God for the sake of the patriarchs, especially Abraham and Moses, nevertheless, becasue of unbelief they are broken off the olive tree which is Christ. But, "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to grant them in again." Rom. 11:20-23, 28.

It seems to me that St.Paul is saying that by conversion and baptism the Jews can be reincorpated into the New COvenant.

So, of the Jewish race, "there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace" Rom. 11:15, and that remnant consists of those Jews who repent, are baptized, and become as St.Paul.



Reply #174 Top
And for the Grand Finale!

-One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD (Num 15:15)
-And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month (Lev 23:41).

What does 'for ever' mean to you Lula?


I'm glad you asked, AD.

You of course are referring to the religious Jewish feasts. They had double meaning for the Jewish people, a retrospective and a prospective or prophetical. The feasts served immediately to remind the people of the wonderful gifts and benefits which they had received from God. They are types of Christian feasts which are also intended to remind us of and make us grateful for the grace of sanctification and redemption.



The significance of the religious Jewish feasts lies in that they were types of the Christian feasts and point towards the manifestation of grace. It is no small thing of the connection of the Jewish feasts of the Pasch and Pentecost and our celebration of Christ's Resurrection and Pentecost.

The Feast of the Tabernacles corresponds to our Corpus Christi, which is solemnized in the open air and is a Feast of Thanksgiving to GOd that Jesus Christ, God made man, has given Himself to be our Leader through the wilderness of this life, feeding our souls with the true Bread from Heaven.

Our great day of Expiation is Good Friday, on which day Jesus Christ was crucified outside the walls for the sins of the world. Even as the Jewish High Priest went into the HOly of Holies on the Day of Atonement, to carry there the blood of the sacrifice, so Christ, "being come an High Priest of the good things to come", by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, ie Heaven, not made with hand, niether by the blood of goats and of calves, but by His own Blood, entered into the Holy of Holies, having obtained eternal redemption. Heb. 9:11-12.

This means that Jesus Christ, having won for us by His death on Good Friday, jusification, sanctification, and salvation, entered into Heaven, where He continually offers the merits of His Passion and Death, to His Heavenly Father.

the great year of Jubilee, which began with the Day of Atonement, is a beautiful type of the Christian era, which will last till the end of times, and in which man, by the atoning death of Christ, is freed from the slavery of sin and Satan, and is once more made heir of the Kingdom of Heaven.

The recurring years of Rest and Jubilee correspond with our years of jubilee, in which the Church throws open her treasures of grace and offers to us the remission of the temporal punishment of sin, so that we may be cleansed from all guilt and made partakers of the heavenly inheritance. So, all of the religious Jewish feasts find their fulfillment in the Catholic Chruch which alone is the true Chruch of Christ, founded by God and foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

Reply #175 Top
Do you believe Paul observed and taught that Sabbath is on first day or on the seventh day?


Exactly what text are you referring? That might help me answer your question better. Paul taught neither that I'm aware of. We see the early church meeting on the first day of the week. We see many references to this first day. None of the NT writers encourage Sabbath day keeping at all. Not one of them.

I think back to Col 2:16. I just literally finished teaching Colosians to my group here. Here in this section we talked about false teachers who were evidently insisting on abstinence from certain foods and observance of certain days. These Paul says are shadows that have been dispersed by the coming of Christ.


Luke records this account of Passover.

My take is that Do is an active verb. The question here is do what?


Four expressions were used in Ex 6:6-7 describing His promised deliverance from Egypt. Each is expressed with a cup at Passover.

1. “I will bring you out”
2. “I will rescue you from their bondage”
3. “I will redeem you”
4. “I will take you as My people”


This third cup in Luke you're referring is called the cup of redemption or blessing. This is where the Lord instituted the Lord’s Supper, Luke 22:20 shows it was after the dinner. You mentioned Luke 22:19 but verse 20 is very important

"Likewise also the cup after supper, saying This Cup (third) is the new testament in my blood which is shed for you.

So the Passover has a new meaning now. He called it a "new" testament. Now they were to understand the real meaning of redemption, similar to the time of Egypt. But this redemption was for eternal life. He was redeeming them from sin which leads to death, paying the price they could not pay.

So the answer for us as Christians is we are to commemorate, not Passover but what we now refer to as communion. This new testament or new covenant is God's new arrangement with men based on the death of Christ. He is the lamb that was slain.

To look at this even closer you can look at 1 Cor 11:23-34. It was called the Lord's Supper not Passover. He wrote as often as you eath this bread, and drink this cup you show the Lord's death. He doesn't mention Passover or the once a year celebration that Passover is. There was no "as often" mentioned in the description of Passover. Passover was a required feast for all Jewish males to observe.

As far as the rest of the feasts are concerned. It's really a message for the Jews. I mean it is for us as well but the feasts were given to them back in the day of Moses and will be totally fulfilled in the second coming. It's then that the Jews will have a Day of Atonement like no other. Hasn't happened yet for them.


You just said that ALL is not fulfilled but earlier you did.


all that pertains to his first coming. Of course I know and agree there is still more to be fulfilled for his second coming including the meaning in those last three feasts.

Paul makes it very clear in the NT in many places that we are NOT under the law but under Grace. While I believe the law is good and even perfect it's unattainable and God wanted us to realize this. He knew we couldn't keep it. Paul said where sin abounds grace abounds even more.