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Jesus, Son of G-d or Satan's greatest trick?

Jesus, Son of G-d or Satan's greatest trick?

So Satan sitting in his home listening to the screams of the tormented with a smile on his face, decided the Jews were to close to G-d, and this really angered him, he had to find a way to divide the damned Jews, after all G-d decided they were his chosen people and what better target for his evil deeds than watering down the religion, Now Satan had great power, let us not forget that after all he was arch Angel, most high, one of the three named Angels that sat at G-ds side at one time.

So along comes this good man Jesus was his name, he had many good things to say and the people listened, so first Satan hardened the hearts of the Rabbis, made them jealous of Jesus and his huge following, then Satan allowed some minor so called miracles to happen, an easy task for one as powerful as Lucifer. Satan also knew of the prophecy of the Messiah, and he thought what a great idea if he could trick the Jews into believing that Jesus was the Messiah, he could one, break up the tribes of Israel, really anger G-d whom Lucifer hated beyond all things and of course lead people away from the one true faith of Judaism. Needless to say his plan worked the people of Israel {some} believed the Messiah had come, the Rabbis who Lucifer had tricked into believing this good man was a threat to their power played their part perfectly and had the Romans crucify Jesus {all part of the prophecy} Some years after the death of Jesus, Christianity was born, Jesus NEVER claimed to be a Christian, he was circumcised in the Jewish religion and took Bar mitzvah at 13 again following the Jewish religion. Never once did he or his disciples call what Jesus was preaching Christianity, what he was preaching was Judaism in it purest form, with stress on the 10 commandments as a way to live your life. Did this really happen? I have no Idea, but it is no more believable or unbelievable than Jesus being the Human Son of G-d. Meanwhile we Jews of the one true faith are still waiting for the Messiah to arrive and on that day there will be much celebrating, for we have waiting patiently a very long time for this to happen.

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Reply #226 Top
lula,

You not reading your bible out of fear that all you was taught was a lie?
I do not see anything in the Jerusalem Council giving Rome authority over the Assemblies,I do not see anything other then a set of guidelines for the new convert to start learning the Covenant,and besides who gave Man authority over the Most High and His Rules and Regulations,no one,for our High Priest is eternal and the last I looked the two witnessess of Covenant are still here,see catholic mithra worshippers fail tocomprehend when witnesses are called forth to witness something, that witness last as long as they are present,in this case the two witnesses are still around,Messiah even said if heaven and earth pass his Words will still endure for those Words are from the Almighty.

All I see is excuse after excuse justifying illigalism/lawlessness,you think if your still sold to sin you can achieve the Kingdom?
Pastor Terry
Reply #227 Top
Two that come to mind first off is they DO pray for the Peace of Jerusalem and as far as I know they DO NOT celebrate Easter.


If so, then I stand corrected.

I agree wholeheartedly your recalling the background of Easter and I'm well aware of the connection with all false pagan activities that stem from Nimrod.


Ever wonder why you continue to celebrate resurrection day on Easter Sunday especially since Passover and Easter can be found in two separate months of our Gregorian Calendar (ever few years)?

You said the first day of the week starts at Sundown on Saturday right? So the first day of the week could start at say 6pm Saturday night and go until Sunday night at sundown...according to Jewish timing.

Now it says in Acts they met on the first day of the week (could fall anywhere between Saturday Night and Sunday Night)and continued to past Midnight. So this midnight could be Saturday Night at midnight or Sunday night at midnight right?

So that's according to Jewish timing. Roman time started at daybreak. So according to the Romans the day started at 6 am and went until the next day at 6 am. So either way this first day of the week looks like Sunday and could very well be Sunday night.

Since Luke was a Gentile and the writer of Acts, I'm assuming he meant first day of the week (Sunday) as we read in the gospels....after the last Sabbath the first day of the week brought the Resurrection and that it may have started after the workday.


You've received my thoughts on this so I see no need to belabor this issue.

But it's more than that AD..... It's also made quite clear what was asked of these new Gentile converts to adhear to and it was NOT the law.


KFC, yes I agree it is more than circumcision and the Torah. It is linking the two with salvation as is found in Verse 1.

To further expound on this subject let me offer this as food for thought. When a new person converts to Christianity do you tell them that they must keep all the commandments right away?

Do you give them a list and say okay now that you are a believer here is your list of what you should do such as (no particular order):

1. Pray daily.
2. Attend church at least 3 times a week.
3. Read bible daily.
4. Stop thinking negatively.
5. Stop doing drugs
etc...

The reason I mention this to take this into perspective with the Jerusalem Council's final response.

That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (Acts 15:29)

Why would they begin by telling them to stay away from meats offered to idols, blood, etc?

Here's my basis about this question. The first part addresses dietary concerns and the second addressing abhorrent behavior both of which are based in Torah. Here's where I'm seeing inconsistency in what you proposed. Even in Christianity you allow for some time of the conversion to change the person wholy. Meaning they start with certain areas in their lives and progress.

This leads me to ask:

If the Gentiles were not supposed to keep Torah then why would they be encouraged to do two things that are based from Torah?
Reply #228 Top
Let's see if our discussion of the Jews keeping the Torah after they converted is cleared any by examining St.Paul's teaching to the Ephesians 2: 11-22.


Let's not get too far ahead. If I may request we take this one topic at a time. I appreciate you taking the time and writing about Ephesians 2. I'll be happy to respond once we finish with Acts 15.
Reply #229 Top
Re: keeping the Torah, I'd say that KFC has succinctly summed it up. Beyond that, you may want to consider my reply #229 concerning St.Paul's teaching to the Ephesians.


I'm not quite ready to leave Acts 15 just yet. Once we finish up there I'll be happy to proceed to Ephesians.
Reply #230 Top
Thankfully, my fall cleaning is just about complete and I'm getting into the Thanksgiving time groove.


Glad to hear that. Thank you Lula for taking the time to discuss with me.
Reply #231 Top
A.D. they really do not want to jump to Ephesians just yet anyway,for Paul enforces the torah and the covenant and how we who are outside can now come inside,most of the congregation just picks through this letter so they can justify sinfulness under guise of grace.
Pastor Terry
Reply #232 Top
A.D. they really do not want to jump to Ephesians just yet anyway,for Paul enforces the torah and the covenant and how we who are outside can now come inside,most of the congregation just picks through this letter so they can justify sinfulness under guise of grace.


Well, that may be true Terry. However, I think it is important to finish this discussion on Acts 15 before moving to a next bit of scripture. I clearly see that Paul supports and upholds Torah based upon scripture and not the writings of Marcion nor Justin Martyr to back my thesis. I want to fully examine each topic before proceeding to the next to see if there is a common theme after Paul's conversion.

I still remain in the stance that Paul either supported Torah or supported Lawlessness which would make him a liar. If Paul is indeed a liar then we should eliminate his writings and teachings from the text. I realize that there is no way a Christian would deem Paul a writer as then their religion is 'replacement' theology because it contradicts Torah.

I'm only 28yrs old and know enough that I have a LOT to learn.
Reply #233 Top
Lula suggests:
Let's see if our discussion of the Jews keeping the Torah after they converted is cleared any by examining St.Paul's teaching to the Ephesians 2: 11-22.

AD posts:
Let's not get too far ahead. If I may request we take this one topic at a time. I appreciate you taking the time and writing about Ephesians 2. I'll be happy to respond once we finish with Acts 15.


OK,


I'll repost then:

AD POSTS:
Acts 15:1 - And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.


LULA POSTS:
The Council at Jerusalem clearly separates itself from the activities of the Judaizers for we know the final decision was taken by only "the apostles and the elders".


AD POSTS:
Lula, I don’t see the Jerusalem council separating themselves from Torah. It seems to me that they were separating themselves from the two gentlemen’s preaching in verse



The Judaizers had brought unrest and complication into the churches. Here, the question, dispute and dissension arose between the Jewish and Gentile Christian converts over the Gentile Christian's freedom from specific parts of the Old Law.


AD POSTS # 204:
Hopefully you can see the issue wasn't about Torah observance here but about refuting what the 'certain men' were preaching as commands that were given by the Jerusalem Council. Then enclosing a note of encouragement to begin moving towards Torah Observance as these are Kosher Laws being mentioned in Verse 29.


[quote]Let's see if our discussion of the Jews keeping the Torah after they converted is cleared any by examining St.Paul's teaching to the Ephesians 2: 11-22.

This is how I see the Council of Jerusalem's decision and the way it was applied:

Acts 15: 22-29 concern the Jerusalem Council's final decree incorporating St.Jame's suggestions. The Apostles and elders of the Church say in v. 28 that their decision is the decision of the Holy Spirit Himself. In summation, the decision was guided by God so we know it was the correct one.

It is the Apostles and the elders, with the whole Church, who designate the people who are to publish the Council's decree, but it is the Apostles and elders themselves, (the Hierarchy), which formulates and promulgates it. The text contains two parts--one dogmatic and moral (that's v. 28, guided by the Holy Spirit and forever more unchangeable),and the other is disciplinary v. 29. (which can be changed).

The dogmatic part speaks imposing no burden other than what is essential and therefore declares the pagan converts are free of the obligation of circumcision and of the Mosaic Laws, but are now subject to the Gospel's perennial moral teaching on matters to do with chastity. Again, this part is permanent Gospel and therfore permanent Catholic Chruch teaching becasue it has to do with a necessary part of God's salvific will it cannot change or be changed. Period.

The diciplinary part of the decree lays down rules of prudence which can change, which are temporary. It ask Christians of Gentile background to abstain, in charity (love) towards their brethren, Jewish Christians, from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood and from meat of animals killed by strangulation. The effect of the decree means that the disciplinary rules contained in it, although they derive from Mosaic Law, no longer oblige by virtue of that Law, but rather by virtue of the authority of the Church given by Christ to His Apostles, which has decided to apply them for the time being.

What matters is not what Moses says but what Christ says through the Holy Spirit to His Church. St.John Chrysostom wrote: The Council seems to maintain the Law in force, because it selects various prescriptions from it, but in fact it suppresses it, because it does not accept all it prescriptions. It had often spoken about these points, it sought to respect the Law, and yet establish these as coming not from Moses, but from the Apostles through guidance of the Holy Spirit.


Reply #234 Top
To further expound on this subject let me offer this as food for thought. When a new person converts to Christianity do you tell them that they must keep all the commandments right away?



AD,

I just posted on the Ten Commandments and the Old and New COvenants on another thread that may be helpful in our discussion.


The OLd Covenant was sealed with the blood of victims; the New Covenant (Testament) with the Blood of God made man, (This is My Blood of the New Covenant").

The Old Covenant was made through Moses, the New Through Christ. The OC was made for only one nation, the New with all mankind. The OC was made to last for a limited time, the New will last until the end of time. In the Old Testament severe laws were made, but the power of observing them was not given.

The New Testament has not only its own holy laws, but abundant grace is given (through the Holy Eucharist and other Sacraments), by which to observe them. And the New COvenant is therefore called the Covenant of grace.

The Ten Commandments are an expression of the Natural or Moral Law, which God has written in every heart, and which every man can know if he listens to the voice of reason and conscience. That's why the Ten Commandments apply to all times and will until the end of time. And for this reason Almighty God wrote them on stone to signify that they were as durable as stone and are to last for all ages. We, Christians, (and yes, A, Catholics are the first Christians) ought to observe the Commandments more perfectly than was expected of the Israelites for our Lord has said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfill."

I've been studying the Decalogue and what they are to mean to us for only by our observance of them will we find happiness....by giving them God has shown us the road to Heaven.

The first three say to us: Thou shalt worship God, thou shalt honor and keep His name and thou shalt respect and keep holy His day.

The Fourth Commandment is a transition from one division to another. The next four protect our most valuable possessions, and forbid any injury to life (including the babe in the womb and old disabled people), innocence, property and honor. The last tow forbid evil desires, becasue they corrupt the heart and lead to evil deeds (sin).

Ask yourself which commandment you have most sinned against, and pray to the Holy SPirit for the gift of holy fear. "If thou will enter life, keep the commandments, says the LOrd. Deut. 5


The OLd and the New Covenant..one written in stone the same written upon our hearts...More on this is found in Hebrews 8 I believe.

Reply #235 Top


I can't believe this is still going on . . .
Reply #236 Top
The OC was made to last for a limited time,


Lula, what about when you see a rainbow? Do you still see a promise to come?

The Ten Commandments are an expression of the Natural or Moral Law, which God has written in every heart, and which every man can know if he listens to the voice of reason and conscience.


Here's the verse Lula is referring to:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. - Jeremiah 31:33.

Oddly though the Hebrew word for law here is "Torah" not Mitzvot which is the word for Commands.

That's why the Ten Commandments apply to all times and will until the end of time. And for this reason Almighty God wrote them on stone to signify that they were as durable as stone and are to last for all ages.


What about the 4th one Lula? The Catholic Church promotes Sunday which is a complete violation?
Reply #237 Top
Acts 15: 22-29 concern the Jerusalem Council's final decree incorporating St.Jame's suggestions. The Apostles and elders of the Church say in v. 28 that their decision is the decision of the Holy Spirit Himself. In summation, the decision was guided by God so we know it was the correct one.


Agreed, they gave them two things to work on both from the Torah. As I mentioned before, the first one being Kosher and the second being from the Torah as well.

The Council seems to maintain the Law in force, because it selects various prescriptions from it, but in fact it suppresses it, because it does not accept all it prescriptions. It had often spoken about these points, it sought to respect the Law, and yet establish these as coming not from Moses, but from the Apostles through guidance of the Holy Spirit.


How can you respect the law and yet establish them as no longer important?
Reply #238 Top
In summation, the decision was guided by God so we know it was the correct one.


Agreed, as they encouraged them to observe two aspects of Torah. To eat clean meat and to abstain from fornication. Both first found in Torah.
Reply #239 Top
(Citizen)SanChoninoNovember 16, 2007 17:17:50


I can't believe this is still going on . . .


me either, I might rename this article to "THE BLOG THAT WOULD NOT DIE!!"
Reply #240 Top
This post is ongoing because there are some here who are struggling with crossing over,see if we want the promises which are Israels we need to live by Israels rules as laid out in the Bible.

If we are to become of Abrahams family we have to learn to live by the family rules as laid out by the Redeemer of Israel and Judah,nothing about Rome being mentioned much less Greece having the promises.

So believe we can live as romans in the commonwealth of Israel and find out on that day what happens.
Pastor Terry
Reply #241 Top
I'm not quite ready to leave Acts 15 just yet.


AD,

Mostly unpacked so I'm back!! With hopefully some new thoughts....

How can two groups from diff cultures live together in one church without on the one hand compromising the grace of Christ in legalism or on the other offending the sense of decency of some good Christian brothers and sisters? That is exactly the issue that this early church is struggling with in Acts 15. This would be no different than if I were to worship say in Bulgaria today. There would most likely be an immediate cultural clash because of customs very strange to me.

We've already established the cultural issue here was whether circumcision was necessary for salvation (15:1). Peter voiced the solution..."we believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (v 11).

James agreed referring to "all the Gentiles who bear my name" (v17). In other words, the Gentiles might remain Gentiles and still be saved. Circumcision was not necessary.

We must be clear what this council did not do. It did not require circumcision or the keeping of the sabbath or tithing or the kosher regulations. These rules marked out a Jew from a Gentile and in the end were not enforced upon Gentile Christians.

Paul would have been satisfied with the ruling for his concern with "works" and "law" in Romans and Galatians is not with moral rules, but with those practices that marked out Jew from Gentile. That they were not necessary for salvation is a point of agreement between Paul and the council.

We also need to be clear about the nature of worship in the early church. Christians met in homes. A city church would have many cells each with perhaps a maximum of 60 people depending on the size of the house. At each service the central feature was a meal with a loaf of bread broken in the beginning and shared with a cup of wine at the end. In between would be a potluck meal. So Jew and Gentile believers would be eating together.

Therefore Pauline discussion of food in 1 Cor 8-10 and Romans 14 was to assist a church in living together. It had nothing to do with regulating private behavior.

So what does this all mean in the context of Acts? All of them have to do with the Mosaic law drawn from Leviticus 17-18. The first issue in those chapters in Lev is the sacrificing of an animal to anything other than Yahweh or even sacrificing it to him outside the appointed place. Thus a Jew would find it impossible to eat meath that came from a sacrifice to a god other than Yahweh. Most meat found in pagan markets was in some way associated with idols. Paul does not believe that this contaminates the meat (1 Cor 8-10) although he rules out going to a meal in an idol temple. He stated clearly that love would make one refuse to offend a weaker brother (a Jew) on this issue.

The other issue in Lev is that of blood. There were two ways in which blood might e eaten. In many cultures blood was eaten directly as in blood sausage and pudding. In some cultures the manner of slaughter might lead to retention of blood in the meat maybe even deliberatly to keep it tenderer. But neither of these ways were acceptable to the Jews. It must be poured out.

The third issue in Lev 17-18 is that of inappropriate sexual relations. It would be highly disturbing to a Jew to have table fellowship at the Lord's table with a person who had an inappropriate relationship. Paul opposes just such a relation in 1 Cor 5.

What we are talking about then is Paul's rule of love in Romans 14 summed up...."The kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteeousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Rom 14:17).

If the Gentile Christians would keep the minimal food standards not so much in what they did privately at home but in what they brought to church or served Jewish believers, and if they would observe minimal rules of sexual decency, then Jews and Gentiles could live and function together in the church. As long as the principles were based on love and unity Paul had no problem. Only when the legal rituals became a means of salvation then he put his foot down.

Go to Rev 2:14,20 and you'll see a similar rule put here. There are examples of Christians in the early church who felt bound by the rules. But at the same time there is often an observing of the rules and an ignoring of the reasons for them. Even now in different cultures these things still can come up with strange culture clashes. In some cultures it might be the way a woman dresses that might offend. If we adopted their cultural patterns we might feel a rigid legalism upon us that would stifle our growth.

Paul should be our guide. He clearly prohibits sexual immorality for ALL Christians everywhere, leaving the dietary rules to our own conscience before God and our love for our fellow Christians.

Reply #242 Top
AD POSTS #204
Since you bring up Acts 15 for a closer look let’s address the actual issue here.

Acts 15:1 - And certain men came down from Judaea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."

This is the underlying reason that the Jerusalem Council met. Salvation wasn’t ever given through or by circumcision.

The teaching of these ‘certain’ men was incorrect and needed to be addressed with the Jerusalem Council as these men preaching in Antioch were from Judea. So the congregation sent Paul, Barnabas, and others to Jerusalem (V 2).

Acts 15:5 - But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

The issue wasn’t about keeping the Torah.



Hello AD,

I'd like add some more thoughts on the matter of Acts 15 in an attempt to close this part of the discussion before I break away from JU for the Thanksgiving holiday.

V. 1 "certain men" are those Jewish Christians who had belonged to the sect of the Pharisees.

"teaching the brethren" are those Gentile Christians.

"Unless" Means you observe the Law of Moses generally, in all its regualations as food, purifications, etc.

The matter in dispute was an important one and it was decided to submit it to the APostles as a body. If the opinion held by the Jewish Christians had been generally accepted, the admission of the Gentiles into the early Church's fold would have resulted in dissension and utter disunity. The Chruch's growth would have been fettered and the Old COvenant itself would have lost its real character as an introduction to Christianity being fulfilled by CHrist's Cross and the New and everlasting Covenant in His BLood.

In order to settle the question, Sts. Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to consult with Peter and the other Apostles. After much discussion, St.Peter rose up and said, "Men, brethren, you know that in the former days (about 9 years previously) GOd made choice among us, that the Gentiles, by my mouth should hear the word of the Gospel, and believe. ANd God who knoweth the hearts gave them testimony, giving to them the Holy Ghost as well as to us, and made no difference between us (who were circumcised Jews) and them, (the uncircumcised Gentiles)purifying their hearts by faith. Now, therefore why tempt you God to put a yoke upon the necks of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear. But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we believed to be saved, even as they." When St. Peter finished speaking, "all the multitude held their peace. v. 12.

Then James, the apostles known as James the Less, and bishop of Jerusalem, spoke (which KFC has already well explained). It was then decided by the whole Council of Jerusalem, the decree written down. Again, the decree has two parts, one dogmatic and moral; the other disciplinary. After this, Sts. Paul and Barnabas travel to ANtioch and delivered the decree to the Church there.



Reply #243 Top
Mostly unpacked so I'm back!! With hopefully some new thoughts....


Paul should be our guide. He clearly prohibits sexual immorality for ALL Christians everywhere, leaving the dietary rules to our own conscience before God and our love for our fellow Christians.


So good to see you back, your thoughts here are "sharp as a tack."

My Thanksgiving prayer for all...

Good and gracious God we come before You united with all who give You thanks and praise. Fill us with gratitude for Your many blessings both physical and spiritual. In Jesus, your Son, Our Lord who gives all things freely according to our needs. Continue to bless us and give us Your peace. Amen.

Reply #244 Top
The BLOG that would not die!!! da! da! da! DAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
Reply #245 Top
The BLOG that would not die!!! da! da! da! DAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!


The (boring) blog that would not die!
Reply #246 Top
Hey wash your mouth out SC.....  
Reply #247 Top

Reply By: SanChoninoPosted: Wednesday, November 21, 2007
The BLOG that would not die!!! da! da! da! DAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!


The (boring) blog that would not die!

is not {boring}

Reply #248 Top

Reply By: KFC Kickin For ChristPosted: Wednesday, November 21, 2007
Hey wash your mouth out SC.....

yeh! wiff the white stuff you scrape off of battery posts!!

Reply #249 Top
Jeez, what are you guys talkin' about here.

Clearly Jesus was neither Jewish nor Christian, but was a noble prophet of Allah the Mighty, as is taught to us by Mohammed. After being spirited away by the Imam Ali, (unlike the false teaching of his crucifixion, clearly God substituted someone in his place)he remains in paradise, until the day when he returns at the head of the Mahdi Army alongside of the twelveth Imam, to cleanse the earth of foul unbelievers.

And as to whether he was real, I mean come on, you can see his footprints in the stone at the Dome of the Rock, and his fingerprints etched into one of the pillars.

Allah Karim dudes,
I'm going downstairs to eat a nice juicy ham sandwich........
Reply #250 Top
Jesus definitely was not a Christian, as Christians follow Christ and Jesus WAS Christ. He did not have to follow himself, since he WAS himself.