On Darwin and our Dangerous Times

With palms together,
Good Morning Everyone,

So, you are home, snuggled up with Your Little Honey, and someone breaks in through your door. Or. You are robbed at gunpoint in a parking lot. Or. Someone threatens you with a knife and is about to rape your partner.

We hear such scenarios whenever a discussion occurs surrounding non-violence. They are, essentially, emotional popcorn to chew in the move created by the scene.

Most of us rarely, if ever, encounter violent assault or overt threats of violence. Yet such scenarios are easily spun and far too easily are pictured in our mind's eye. Once there, our heart rate increases, our breathing becomes a tad more shallow, and we begin to think like an animal who wishes to survive. Instead of recourse to reason, negotiation, or other human avenues, we seemingly automatically go to a prehistoric response.

Some may point to Darwin and say, its the survival of the fittest, the law of the jungle or some other such lame excuse for throwing out civility. Yet Darwin, when actually talking about human beings rarely applied such terms. In fact, in his The Descent of Man, love and mutual aid are the key survival mechanisms. So, what is going on here?

We are trained to be this way. This is not something inherent. We are not born to be violent. We learn to be violent. The groundwork for violence is in our culture itself and the dominant religious models. Yet, these lessons turn us away from our more natural state, that of communal beings.

Darwin:
Social animals are impelled partly by a wish to aid the members of their

community in a general manner, but more commonly to perform certain

definite actions. Man is impelled by the same general wish to aid his

fellows; but has few or no special instincts. He differs also from the

lower animals in the power of expressing his desires by words, which thus

become a guide to the aid required and bestowed. The motive to give aid is

likewise much modified in man: it no longer consists solely of a blind

instinctive impulse, but is much influenced by the praise or blame of his

fellows. The appreciation and the bestowal of praise and blame both rest

on sympathy; and this emotion, as we have seen, is one of the most

important elements of the social instincts. Sympathy, though gained as an

instinct, is also much strengthened by exercise or habit.


What Darwin is calling "sympathy" more modern researchers might call "empathy" or the ability to feel what others are feeling or experiencing without have actually experienced the same ourselves. I discussed the physiological basis for this in an earlier note regarding "mirror neurons. Unfortunately for us, these neurons aren't particularly selective, hence if we watch a film with strong emotion and violent content we are likely to mirror the feelings expressed in our minds and thus create what Buddhists call "seeds".


Darwin: As all men desire their own happiness, praise or blame is bestowed on actions and

motives, according as they lead to this end; and as happiness is an essential part of the general good, the greatest-happiness principle indirectly serves as a nearly safe standard of right and wrong. As the reasoning powers advance and experience is gained, the remoter effects of certain lines of conduct on the character of the individual, and on the

general good, are perceived; and then the self-regarding virtues come within the scope of public opinion, and receive praise, and their opposites blame. But with the less civilised nations reason often errs, and many bad customs and base superstitions come within the same scope, and are then esteemed as high virtues, and their breach as heavy crimes.


The Descent of Man,(citation from Chapter 21 on-line edition)


My concern here is that civilization itself has turned on us. This is also a thesis of a recent book, The Death of Religion and the Rebirth of spirituality by Joseph Chilton Pearce. So, what was once an intermediary between our mirror neurons and our assumptions about civilized life, has now become something of a block to our growth and certainly a chill on our willingness to care for our neighbors.

One antidote is to create conditions within which we can deepen our already existing sense of prosocial humanitarianism. We do this by practice. Practicing Zazen, Practicing smiling, openness, and joyfulness. This is not really all that difficult. More importantly however, we must be willing to use reason in the face of emotional pleas to action. Will our behavioral choice bring about more good over bad for all concerned? Can the choice be accomplished with the least harm?

Knee-jerk responses rooted in fundamentalism and the reptilian mind are an anathema to civilization. We must be wiser than this.

Be well. "
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Reply #1 Top
We are trained to be this way. This is not something inherent. We are not born to be violent. We learn to be violent. The groundwork for violence is in our culture itself and the dominant religious models. Yet, these lessons turn us away from our more natural state, that of communal beings.

I would have to respectfully disagree here SoDaiho. As you know coming from a Christian POV I believe we are born sinners having inherited a sin nature. We are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are born sinners. I can think of only ONE person who has walked this earth who has NOT inherited this sin nature and HE was not prone to violence one whit.


You say we are trained to be violent. I say we need to be trained NOT to be violent. Just look at kids for an example. Take two year olds. They need to be trained NOT to bite, kick and hurt another child. Left to themselves most would kill each other eventually. Kids in general with no parental training tend to lend themselves to violence in comparison to those who are trained NOT TO by loving parents. I had three babies and saw this firsthand on a day to day basis. I didn't train them to be rebellious and violent but saw the rebellion in them from an early age. They didn't learn this. They were born with it as all children are.

My 11 month old started biting my two year old. Where did he learn this? He never saw me bite his father. He wasn't trained to do this. He was never around other kids at that stage other than his brother so he didn't learn it from another. I had to train him NOT TO bite. It took about a week. He never did it again.

I also look at the example of Cain and Abel. Four people on earth yet Cain killed Abel. How did Cain learn this violence? Who taught him to murder his brother when murder had not even been introduced?

Violence has it's beginning in anger whether it leads to biting or killing. We see first that Cain was angry with his brother. This anger gave birth to a murderous heart and it all originated with the sin sickness that he was born in.



Reply #2 Top
Good Evening KFC,

As you are aware through your own children, they do not start off biting or fighting and, as Darwin points out, we use reason to civilize, i.e. enculturate our offspring. Our children are animals, as we are adult animals. Children do not need to be taught violent interaction, on the other hand. I know of few adults who behave poorly, biting or fighting, in a natural state and without provocation. Our children and we as adults help each other, share, and generally enjoy each other's company. We see our social and familial relationships as not only important, but necessary for our survival.

Here's the thing, as we grow and mature, as we are taught to share and taught not to be violent, but we are also filled with images of violence through violence at home, on television, in film, and in the world at large. Some of our religions, including yours, teach fear, hate, and intolerance, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly. Some people suggest that to 'spare the rod, spoils the child' (an erroneous understanding of a biblical injunction). We want our children to not be bullied, so we teach them to (stupidly) stand up for themselves, rather than (smartly) learning skills to diffuse potentially violent situations. Even your Idol Jesus got enraged, as I have mentioned to you before and became violent in both action and language...or so the story goes. And the Church seems to grab onto this and rationalize his behavior to suit its teaching needs.

Cain and Abel are fairy tales at worst and archetypes at best. I would not put too much in their stories other than the tribal truths believed to be important to be passed on. So even these must be understood in the context of the times they were written. If you believe there were only four people on earth at the time, I have a bridge here to sell you.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that violence has its basis in anger, anger without due and reasoned restraint. As such, though, it is not only unnecessary, but a backward step, a step into primordial life, a step in the wrong direction. Each time we are angry and violent, we teach anger and violence. Those mirror neurons work at the speed of light.

My sense is that it will take a concerted effort by all people to abandon violence as a solution to any conflict. I fear that contemporary religion has lost its will in this effort and abandoned hope, abdicating its responsibility due to baser fears, pluralism, secularism, humanism, any perceived or actual threat to its existence.

Your Idol, Jesus, said we should learn to turn the other cheek if assaulted. I believe him. We should also offer our coat if asked. I believe that. I also believe brotherly love and the natural inclination toward mutual aid is our salvation should we choose to nurture it. Lastly, not only is Original Sin a great deceit, it is also a misanthropic one. It must be a seriously distorted heart that looks on a newborn and sees sin.

Be well.


Reply #3 Top
not only is Original Sin a great deceit, it is also a misanthropic one. It must be a seriously distorted heart that looks on a newborn and sees sin.


I wholeheartedly agree!

As a Christian I know my God does not see children in this way. Violence is learned, being a sinner is learned, it is not an inherrant trait in innocent children regardless of what others preach. If this is so then there IS NO HOPE for mankind!
Reply #4 Top
If this is so then there IS NO HOPE for mankind!


Yes, there IS HOPE and his name is Jesus.

I'm basing my answers on scripture understanding that not all take that as authority like I do. Scripture is quite clear that we all are sinners and born that way. Our only hope was sent to die for these sins. Otherwise, what did he die for?

"Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." Col 1:13.

As a Christian I know my God does not see children in this way.


Then as a Christian, surely you have something to back this up with?

"Behold I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5

"shapen"=brought forth (in birth). From the moment of conception a person possesses a sinful nature.




Reply #5 Top
The psalm doesn't quite say that.

From the Hebrew, "For I know my transgressions; And my sin is ever before me." 51:5

Early Christian translators (and later one's, I understand) often re-interpreted the Hebrew to make a point.

Your understanding of "shapen" is only one, it could easily be that a person is shaped by his transgressions and, in the case of David, seeks cleansing from God. There is absolutely no biblical evidence of original sin understood the way Christians understand it. Moreover, people (Christians) in my perspective, wuld be a whole lot better off if they took the Hebrew understanding of this psalm and began seeking purity through an honest and present moment relationship with God.


Yes, there IS HOPE and his name is Jesus.

I'm basing my answers on scripture understanding that not all take that as authority like I do. Scripture is quite clear that we all are sinners and born that way. Our only hope was sent to die for these sins. Otherwise, what did he die for?


Even if they did, we should look at how Jesus lived, his principles, his values for our model. And then we should make these ours. Fundamentalists put far too much weight on the lines of text suggesting Jesus, the person, is some sort of passport to God. Be Jesus and there you are, no need for a passport. It is this model of gentleness, peace, love, and compassion that are your salvation, not the man.

Its always odd to me how some Christians talk on one side about Jesus being the prince of peace, turning the God of the Torah into a God of love, then going about in the most inhumane, violent, and barbaric ways convincing others to follow them into sin.


Jesus died because he was executed under Roman law. He became a martyr in a time when people needed martyrs. He was thought of as a messiah because it was a time when people needed a messiah. Now, the Church has done a lot with all of this and spun it into quite a fairy tale. The trouble is that in the spin they lost the message Jesus shared with his people, the message of non-violence, compassion, and peaceful resistence to oppression.


Be well.
Reply #6 Top
From the Hebrew, "For I know my transgressions; And my sin is ever before me." 51:5


What are you reading? Not what I am that's for sure. Read the following..... Are you saying they are ALL wrong? The last one is the literal version meaning it's exactly what the Hebrew says put in English. Believe me....there have been many Hebrew scholars behind these translations. So again, I ask you what are you reading?

Modern Hebrew
הן־בעוון חוללתי
ובחטא יחמתני אמי׃

Paleo-Hebrew (Before 585 B.C.)
51:5 -
Hebrew Transliterated
51:5 HN-B'yVVN ChVLLThY VBChT'a YChMThNY 'aMY.


Latin Vulgate
51:5 ecce in iniquitate conceptus sum et in peccato peperit me mater mea

King James Version
51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

American Standard Version
51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Bible in Basic English
51:5 Truly, I was formed in evil, and in sin did my mother give me birth.

Darby's English Translation
51:5 Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Douay Rheims Bible
51:5 For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Noah Webster Bible
51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

World English Bible
51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. In sin did my mother conceive me.

Young's Literal Translation
51:5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.


Reply #7 Top
Even if they did, we should look at how Jesus lived, his principles, his values for our model. And then we should make these ours.


Yes, agree and it's the call of the Christian.

Fundamentalists put far too much weight on the lines of text suggesting Jesus, the person, is some sort of passport to God


Not exactly. If we are putting too much weight it's only because he told us he was. He said he's the only way. There is no getting around him and he said so with his own words.

Its always odd to me how some Christians talk on one side about Jesus being the prince of peace, turning the God of the Torah into a God of love, then going about in the most inhumane, violent, and barbaric ways convincing others to follow them into sin.


Have I done that? God is the God of love of the NT as well as the Torah, and I've shown this many times around here on other threads devoted to the subject.

Jesus died because he was executed under Roman law. He became a martyr in a time when people needed martyrs. He was thought of as a messiah because it was a time when people needed a messiah. Now, the Church has done a lot with all of this and spun it into quite a fairy tale


you chalk everything you wish not to believe to fairy tales. Well, what if they are true? What then? Have you actually investigated this? I have. I find the claims to be true and there is ample enough evidence and eyewittness accounts to verify these things to be so.

The trouble is that in the spin they lost the message Jesus shared with his people, the message of non-violence, compassion, and peaceful resistence to oppression.


I agree to a point here with you. But who are you looking at? The real deal or the imposters? We are to test the spirits. Keep this in mind....Jesus said:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another as I have loved you that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another." John 13:35
Reply #8 Top
What are you reading? Not what I am that's for sure. Read the following..... Are you saying they are ALL wrong? The last one is the literal version meaning it's exactly what the Hebrew says put in English. Believe me....there have been many Hebrew scholars behind these translations. So again, I ask you what are you reading?

______

KFC, My translation is from the The Holy Scriptures translated by the Jewish Publication Society of America. I think they know their Hebrew.

All of the translations you are using are Christian sources, including Young. I've seen enough fudging with Hebrew by Christians to have any Christian translation be suspect. Let me slip this through our Hebrew teacher and the rabbi. I'll see what they have to say.

Thanks for all those references!

_________

Have I done that? God is the God of love of the NT as well as the Torah, and I've shown this many times around here on other threads devoted to the subject.


I don't doubt that you have and that your intent is in lovingkindness, but as they say regarding a benevolent dictator, he's still a dictator. When you hold out that you have the only way to God at the expence of all of the marvelous diversity God has given us in terms of ways to worship, I see that as an assault on the integrity of other's faith.

The faith you are associated with did all manner of atrocities to my people and others in your God's name, from upholding slavery to burning witches, lynching, torturing to convert, shunning, pogroms. I am not accusing you, personally. I know you to have a good, though misguided, heart. Yet, it is very difficult for me to separate the belief system and its historic application and those who profess it. I try. Most of the time I am successful, but the occasional misanthropic tendencies of Christianity as shown on these threads sometimes just get to me.

I pray you will one day open your heart to the true infinite God.

Be well.


Be well.
Reply #9 Top

All of the translations you are using are Christian sources, including Young. I've seen enough fudging with Hebrew by Christians to have any Christian translation be suspect. Let me slip this through our Hebrew teacher and the rabbi. I'll see what they have to say.

Thanks for all those references!


Yes, Christian sources based on original Hebrew Scriptures. Check them out including any of the Jewish Scholars behind them. I've also seen some cults have their own versions outside of these not faithful to the GK and Hebrew scriptures. These mentioned here are not among them. So I would encourage you to check your version which is so very different to the many others that say the very same thing using diff words to do so.

The faith you are associated with did all manner of atrocities to my people and others in your God's name


but that's not my faith. I'm not associated with them. That's not who I follow. You can't tag me with that or them honestly. That's not fair and is unreasonable. Obviously they were not following their leader. Like I've said, it was power, money and control they were following...not Christ.

There are still some out there saying false things in the name of Christ today and I don't associate with them either. It doesn't make them authentic because they mention Christ. I can call myself anything...it doesn't make it so.

We were warned via scripture that there will be many false Christ's out there and to not go out and follow. That's what you're talking about. Not the real deal. He's going in a diff direction. They are not following the real thing.

Yet, it is very difficult for me to separate the belief system and its historic application and those who profess it. I try. Most of the time I am successful, but the occasional misanthropic tendencies of Christianity as shown on these threads sometimes just get to me.


well you have to because we all will be held accountable as individuals..not groups for what we say and do. I've already told you what the test of authenticity is spoken by Christ himself. That's how you know who is truly a Christian and who isn't. I've seen the diff between those who say they do and those who really and truly do love others. They can be sitting side by side in chuch even. We still have Pharisees among us. No change.

When you hold out that you have the only way to God at the expence of all of the marvelous diversity God has given us in terms of ways to worship, I see that as an assault on the integrity of other's faith.


I understand that. But it's not me making the claims. When Christ said...."I am the way" I believe it to be true because he proved himself in many ways to be the Messiah that the OT prophets spoke of.

Also to clarify...it's not me "having" the only way to God. It's God having his way with me. I came kicking and complaining.



Reply #10 Top
KFC, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I sense we are more deeply appreciating each other. This is good. A bow to you.

Be well.
Reply #11 Top
Interesting KFC, all of our quotes are off. In confering with a Hebrew scholar friend, I find Is. 51:5 is the wrong stanza. We should be looking at 51: 7. Iniquity means mistakes, wrongs, etc. The second line is of interest regarding his mother's sin. For your reference, you might want to Google "Sin Hebrew." There is a link there to MyJewishLearning.com that explores howsin is variously understood. When we translate we are not always aware of the nuances which may lead to substantial diffrences in meaning, especially if we are trying to build a case cherry picking biblical text.

See ya.

BTW, I hope you blushed when you typed the last two sentances of above.
Reply #12 Top
In confering with a Hebrew scholar friend, I find Is. 51:5 is the wrong stanza. We should be looking at 51: 7.


51:7 says: Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean; wash me and I shall be whiter than snow.

So not sure what you mean we "should" be looking at v7? What do you mean wrong stanza?

ha I was just thinking.....not snow white but snow whiter.....

The second line is of interest regarding his mother's sin


well it's both his mother's sin and his because he inherited his sin nature from his mother as well as his father.

When we translate we are not always aware of the nuances which may lead to substantial diffrences in meaning, especially if we are trying to build a case cherry picking biblical text.


I agree we shouldn't cherry pick when it comes to scripture but I can give you many other scriptures. The principle is all throughout. I just picked this one because it is so clear that David was admitting his sin (iniquity) before God. I would never build a theology or belief out of a single scripture especially if it could be an unclear one (which I don't think 51:5 fits this).

How about Job? He said this:

"Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble (don't laugh). He comes forth like a flower and is cut down he flees also as a shadow and continues not. And do you open your eyes upon such a one and bring me into judgment with you? Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one."

and also:

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astay as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3

BTW, I hope you blushed when you typed the last two sentances of above


huh?

I'll be sure to check out your links soon.




Reply #13 Top
Even after having it blatantly pointed out to her, she doesn't get it. You're so pure, KFC!

"It's God having his way with me. I came kicking and complaining."
Reply #14 Top
Hey So.....can I call you that?

I came across something interesting today while packing up my books. I found (I forgot I had them)a set of Hebrew Interlinear Books I had on hand for reference. So I looked up that Psalm 51:5 and saw exactly what I quoted you, but it was under v7 as you said. So now I know what you were saying when you mentioned this diff stanza not understanding you at first.

So when the translators translated scripture over to English, when the Chapters/verses were put in much later, they must have set it up this way.

But it's clear that the modern translations, cited above, from the Hebrew are correct.

Reply #15 Top
But it's clear that the modern translations, cited above, from the Hebrew are correct.


Yes, but it is their meaning that is in question. KFC, thank you for taking the time to discover the issue. I really appreciate it. It would seem the different traditions have somewhat different source texts and clearly differeing interpretations of them.

"So" means "priest" so, since I am a priest, I guess calling me "So" works   

Be well.
Reply #16 Top
not only is Original Sin a great deceit, it is also a misanthropic one. It must be a seriously distorted heart that looks on a newborn and sees sin.



KFC POSTS:
we are born sinners having inherited a sin nature.


FOREVERSERENITY POSTS:
being a sinner is learned, it is not an inherrant trait in innocent children regardless of what others preach.



So Daiho, KFC, and Foreverserenity,

It's a given that all those who believe in the scientific hypothesis become dogmas of Godless Origins and Godless Evolutionism disbelieve the revelation of Adam's sin becoming the sin of all his descendants known as Original Sin. From this standpoint, it's predictable that you would think Original Sin is a deceit. Darwin's Evolution theory rejects Genesis, Adam, Original Sin...therefore, rejects Christ and the Redemption of all humankind.

But what you said in the above indicates you misunderstand Original Sin.

By the revelation of Genesis we come to understand the doctrine of original justice and original sin which constitutes the foundation of Christianity.

Adam had received original justice and holiness, not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yeilding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal (actual) sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would transmit in a fallen state. When we say newborns are born in sin, we mean by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original justice and holiness. That's why Origina Sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it's a sin "contracted" and not "actually committed" ---Original Sin is a state and not an act.

Take the newborn baby. Although it is proper to each individual Original Sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendents. It is a deprivation of original justice and holiness, but human nature has not been totally corrupted (as KFC suggests). It is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, it's subject to ignorance, suffering, and the dominion of death and inclined to sin---an inclination to evil that is called "consupiscence".

Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace erases Original Sin and turns a man back toward God, the but consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Reply #17 Top

Darwin's Evolution theory rejects Genesis, Adam, Original Sin...therefore, rejects Christ and the Redemption of all humankind.


Not necessarily so, unless, of course, you are a literalist. There is no reason to believe that science and scientific theory cannot inform religious belief, but we on the religious side must be open and willing to be informed. Te problem with literalism is that it completely shuts off dialogue, thus the deepest understandings, the understandings that arise from the power of mythos, cannot be realized.

Adam had received original justice and holiness, not for himself alone, but for all human nature.


I can see the first, but not the extrapolation. How is this so?

By yeilding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal (actual) sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would transmit in a fallen state.


OK. A Christian effort at understanding karma. Got it. Yet, we know, from a Jewish perspective, at least, that one way to understand what Christians call "the Fall" is that by eating of the tree of knowledge, man is now awake to the fact that he was created with two inclinations, the inclination to do good and the inclination to do evil. In effect, there was no fall, only an awakening. It is this awakened state that is transmitted from generation to generation. It was God's jealousy that man had become "like one of us" (Gen 3: 22...interesting, is that the 'royal' 'us' or a reference to a plurality?)   

When we say newborns are born in sin, we mean by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original justice and holiness.


So, as you then say, born in sin is a state rather than an act, would mean that God would send a newborn to hell having done nothing. God's creation, through the fall, as you see it, lost perfection and passed this lost perfection on, so that every pear coming from the tree is blemish even as its born? And due to this blemish, the reward is eternal damnation?

I think human beings are born in perfection. I think they are perfect just as they are and that part of this perfection is their knowledge that there is good and evil and that they have the capacity to choose one over the other.

Be well.




Reply #18 Top
Wow! Reply #17 is loaded with food for thought. I'll start at the beginning.....


Lula posts:
Darwin's Evolution theory rejects Genesis, Adam, Original Sin...therefore, rejects Christ and the Redemption of all humankind.


Not necessarily so, unless, of course, you are a literalist.


When you say, not necessarily so, you may be thinking of Theistic Evolution Theory which is different from Evolution Theory drawn from Darwin's ideas and those of his collegues. Darwin's Evolution Theory is nothing less than unwavering faith in macroevolution (one species changing to a different one). My point is that in Darwin's Evolution Theory of the origins of man, God was not required, thus the rejection of Genesis, Adam, etc.

There is no reason to believe that science and scientific theory cannot inform religious belief, but we on the religious side must be open and willing to be informed. Te problem with literalism is that it completely shuts off dialogue, thus the deepest understandings, the understandings that arise from the power of mythos, cannot be realized.


Interesting that you should say this as if it doesn't work both ways!   Religious literalists aren't the only ones with "closed minds" on this!  Again, the belief in Darwin's Evolution Theory is nothing less than unwavering faith in macroevolution, and faith by definition, as you well know, tends to be rather impervious to arguments disagreeable to one's beliefs.

If the science of genetics had been known in the times of Darwin, then his ideas, especially of macro-evolution, would have been seen as obviously mistaken. The theme of descent with modification has in fact failed Darwin's own test of credibility, and without the elusive mechanism, "the missing link", Darwin's Evolution Theory should now be redefined as faith in the myth of Evolution.

So Daiho, as far as I'm concerned there are no deep understandings that arise from the power of myths that can be realized. Deep understandings come from truth, not myths.

My point in bringing this up is that the influence of the philosophy in the myth of Evolution Theory extends to other fields besides religion, like politics, sociology, anthropology, etc. and we are currently discussing these in other forums. What follows if one believes in the myth of ET which rejects God and Creation? (Remember, if Creation is true, then people were created by God and He gets to make the laws, the standards of right and wrong).

What becomes vital to believers in the myth of ET is that they take control of man's evolutionary progress. They believe that since people are the highest form of animal, they can make up their own rules about right and wrong to live by (without God and His rules in the consideration.)

We've seen that people can be corrupt. Governments can force people to have only one child. Governments and organizatons like the UN and EU can implement policies of population control, abortion on demand, genetic engineering, financial aid to poor countries being conditional upon implementation of these policies.


Reply #19 Top
Yet, we know, from a Jewish perspective, at least, that one way to understand what Christians call "the Fall" is that by eating of the tree of knowledge, man is now awake to the fact that he was created with two inclinations, the inclination to do good and the inclination to do evil.


The Jewish perspective on the Fall is faulty. Adam and Eve were not created with two inclinations. God had given Adam and Eve reason that they might what is right and good.
God forbade of the tree which would lead man to a knowledge of evil, not to an inclination to evil. What Adam and Eve and all of mankind had been awakened to is the sad knowledge of what it means to be at variance with GOd.

Reply #20 Top
So.......SO it is!!   


Yet, we know, from a Jewish perspective, at least, that one way to understand what Christians call "the Fall" is that by eating of the tree of knowledge, man is now awake to the fact that he was created with two inclinations, the inclination to do good and the inclination to do evil. In effect, there was no fall, only an awakening. It is this awakened state that is transmitted from generation to generation. It was God's jealousy that man had become "like one of us" (Gen 3: 22...interesting, is that the 'royal' 'us' or a reference to a plurality?)


I'm thinking of blogging on this soon...but some thoughts here. This whole scene you're describing here has its roots in lies. Just one of the lies the serpent was hissing was for Eve to think suspiciously about God. He tried to get her to forget about God's words and just go with her emotions. God said not to eat of ONE tree of the garden, but all she had was his word. Satan comes along and says "how do you know it's wrong? All you have is what God said. He's cornered the market on God. Make up your own mind and you'll be just like God."

God wanted them to know about good and evil from what he told them, not what they experienced. It had nothing to do with his jealousy. But of course for man to have a choice he made a choice possible. No man can be loyal unless he has opportunity to be unloyal. No one can love until he has the opportunity to dislove. This tree was a test. It wasn't a threat but a warning. He warned them, the devil enticed them and God gets the blame.

That's why Jesus said right in the beginning that Satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

So, as you then say, born in sin is a state rather than an act, would mean that God would send a newborn to hell having done nothing.


God sends NOone to hell. We send ourselves to hell. It's our sin that sends us to hell. We choose to rebell against God. Someday when we sit back and see just how far we were in rebellion as we watch our lives play out before us, we'll hang our heads in shame and truly understand.

And due to this blemish, the reward is eternal damnation?


First off it's much more than a blemish. To a Holy God, this sin is a great offense. Sin is rebellion against him. So it's not reward but recompense. We are in debt to God for this sin for which we CANNOT repay.

I think human beings are born in perfection. I think they are perfect just as they are and that part of this perfection is their knowledge that there is good and evil and that they have the capacity to choose one over the other.


and I think this is a lie from Satan himself according to the law and the prophets and Jesus himself. The liar wants you to believe this. Have you ever done a study on King David? Just by studying his life and his words you'd see that he didn't believe this to be true.

Jeremiah, Job, Isaiah etc will all tell you the same. Man is wicked and sinful and the heart is most deceitful above all things.







Reply #21 Top
It was God's jealousy that man had become "like one of us" (Gen 3: 22...interesting, is that the 'royal' 'us' or a reference to a plurality?)


Think Trinity....  
Reply #22 Top

I see I left out a word in the last post...it should read God had given Adam and Eve reason that they might know what is right and good. They already had knowledge of good.


Yet, we know, from a Jewish perspective, at least, that one way to understand what Christians call "the Fall" ......In effect, there was no fall, only an awakening. It is this awakened state that is transmitted from generation to generation.


Ah yes, deny the Fall, deny Original Sin. Oh yes, there was The Fall...The Fall is Adam and Eve's prideful disobedience of God's probation to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Through their fallen state, sin entered the world. God created us and He certainly has a right to lay down laws according to which we must conduct oursleves. Sin is a crime against God or the laws of God.

It was God's jealousy that man had become "like one of us" (Gen 3: 22...interesting, is that the 'royal' 'us' or a reference to a plurality?)


Of Gen. 3: 22 This was spoken by way of reproaching him with his pride, in affecting a knowledge that might make him like to God. St. Augustine wrote "These are the words of God, not insulting over man, but deterring others from an imitation of his pride."

Becoming as one of "us" goes back to Gen. 1:26 "Let us make man in Our image and likeness"......This image of God in man is not in the body, but in the soul, which is a spiritual substance endued with understanding and free will. God speaks here in the plural number to insinuate the plurality of persons in the Deity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Reply #23 Top
The Jewish perspective on the Fall is faulty


This is what I mean, Lula. A different perspective is not "faulty" it is just a different perspective.
Reply #24 Top
God sends NOone to hell. We send ourselves to hell. It's our sin that sends us to hell. We choose to rebell against God. Someday when we sit back and see just how far we were in rebellion as we watch our lives play out before us, we'll hang our heads in shame and truly understand.


We were referring here to an infant. An infant chooses to rebel against God?

Or is my assumption incorrect, an unbaptized infant does not go to hell if it dies before baptism?

Reply #25 Top
We were referring here to an infant. An infant chooses to rebel against God?


We are all born with a sin nature...even an infant has inherited this trait. At his first opportunity when he rebells against his parents he rebells against God. Even something as small to us as the arching of the back or a temper tantrum is evidence of this sin nature.

Or is my assumption incorrect, an unbaptized infant does not go to hell if it dies before baptism?


well if you're talking to Lula maybe. I don't believe any splashing of water saves anyone!! I don't even believe in infant baptism so that's not even on my radar.

An unbaptized infant is left in God's hands. Afterall, he's their creator. I believe all infants will go to heaven if they die before they get a chance to "accept" or "reject" God as their Lord and Savior. Some call this the "age of accountability."

Not because I believe in freewill when it comes to salvation, (I don't) but because I think God has put that baby on earth for a purpose sometimes only known to him. Sometimes this purpose can and is revealed but not always can we know the reason why.