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Revelation 7:9-17-The Rapture

Revelation 7:9-17-The Rapture

When The Trump Sounds-Will You Be Ready?

Continuing on where we left off we now come to Revelation 7:9-17 which says:

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16“They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17“for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


We start off with another worship service not unlike we saw in Chapters 4 & 5 and before the next seal, the 7th, is opened. This is the worship service that will precede the great wrath of God about to overtake the whole world.

In this chapter we see two scenes. First we saw, in the last segment, the 144,000 chosen Jews sealed by God to do the work of God for his special purpose.

This next scene seems to represent all the world. First, we see "after those things." So we can see we're moving along to a different scene. We're moving from one group of people to another. We're going from a specific number to a multitude, a number nobody can number.

The word "behold" is a word of amazement. It's as tho John is saying, "I looked and I can't believe my eyes." He has seen creatures, elders and angels. Now before him is a great multitude, more than he can even number.

We always see two positions before the throne; standing and on their knees. We never see anyone sitting. Notice this multitude is standing before the throne.

Do you remember the promise given to Abraham? Here we see the promise fulfilled. We need to go way back to Genesis 22:16-17 and read:

By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— “blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

So John sees all these that are clothed in white. Earlier we saw a rainbow. So in effect what is happening here is one big lightshow is happening. The light from the dazzling colorful rainbow all around the throne is being reflected off all these pure white robes. God's own glory reflects back to him.

The Palm branches are a symbol of victory. These branches were used in the Jewish feasts. The last of the seven feasts mentioned in Lev 23 is called the Feast of Booths, (tabernacles) or Gathering. I believe each one of the seven feasts corresponds to an event in Christ's first or second coming. This last one is associated with the very end of time. We read in Lev 23:40:

And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of beautiful trees, branches of palm trees, the boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days.

Notice in v10 a loud voice crying out about salvation. They are recognizing that salvation does indeed come from God. Have you noticed that nothing seems quiet in heaven. Everything seems to happen with a shout. We will see an exception tho soon.

In v11 we see all angels (lots) elders and creatures worship God. They are giving God the glory for what he has done for mankind. Notice the seven fold praise to God as they listed seven attributes of God in this remarkable description of Him. This scene should remind us of Luke 15:10 when Christ said:

“Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Imagine all heaven rejoicing when you finally came to God leaving the world behind. How awesome.

So now we come to v13 with two questions being asked of John. This is so reminiscent of how Christ operated when He walked the earth. He liked to ask questions to get them to thinking. It was also a typical Jewish format and one we see quite often in the OT. For example you can see this question and answer format in Ezek 37 and Zech 4:1-6.

So he asks John "who are these people"? We know they're saved. They have new garments exchanging the old filthy ones for fresh clean pure ones. These robes speak of purity and righteousness. They have been washed in the blood of the lamb. 1 John 1:7 says:

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The next question asks "where did they come from?"

The answer is they came out of the Great Tribulation. This is the only place and time where the tribulation is called the "Great Tribulation." This is the second half of Daniel's week. This is occurring right after the 6th seal and before the 7th. These are those who have entered heaven. I believe these could quite possibly be those that have been raptured. This would be another way of saying the rapture occurs "pre-wrath." It's not as popular as a "pre-trib rapture" but it may make much more sense when you take Matthew 24 and lay it side by side with what we've been reading thus far in Revelation.

Some say these are those that are saved thru all the ages. Some say these are those saved during the seven year tribulation. If you believe in the pre-trib rapture then you would place the rapture before Revelation 4:1. Others say it's right here. These people are those that have come out of the great tribulation as it is so stated right here in this section.

We can see quite clearly there is an interlude between the 6th & 7th seal. It seems as tho this is the time when God quite possibly is yanking his people out of the world.

This time is also the changing of the guard. It's back to the Jews again. That's why this all starts with the 144,000 Jews being sealed and explains why these questions are now being asked of John. When we look at v9 we see they come from all nations. Usually this speaks of Gentiles, not Jews. So now what we are observing here is the changing of the baton back to the Jews to preach the gospel to their fellow Jews. God is now going to turn back to israel. That's why he's gathered them and set them in their own land today.

The bible says we will have tribulation. He may allow the church to go thru the tribulation but will never allow the church to suffer thru his wrath meant only for unbelievers. The tribulation coming from evil men in this world is much different than wrath poured out from heaven above.

Going back to 6:17 we see that introduces us to chapter 7. When does this all take place? After the six seals have been opened. There will be no Christians on earth when the 7th seal is opened. This is when God's fury and wrath will be poured out and who will be able to stand? Only those 144,000 sealed and protected by God.

Going back to Matthew 24 we see Jesus is sitting with his disciples. These are his followers and whom he is addressing. They are looking for a sign (v3). A sign is something you see. In v13 he says he who endures to the end will be saved? End of what? The tribulation. This makes sense. Those who make it thru the tribulation will be pulled out and saved before the wrath of God. Notice in v22 it says:

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened"

What days shortened? It can't be the full seven years or Daniel's 70th week would be void. These shortened days would be the period of the tribulation. It will be cut short for the elect's sake when He will take them out.

Going onto 24:25 Jesus uses the pronoun "you" meaning his disciples. He goes on to say in v31:

"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He's telling them he will take them out via the Rapture before it gets really bad. Yes they will go thru tribulation. Yes it's going to be bad. But we are never to worry about what man can do to us. It's what God is able to do to man that should have us trembling. Notice the trumpet is mentioned again as it is in 1 Thess 4:16. The trumpet is very well known in Jewish times to gather God's people together. That's a picture of what we see Jesus is explaining to his disciples here.

Today the church today is mostly teaching a pre-trib rapture theory thanks in part to Tim LaHaye and others. What will happen if the tribulation starts to happen and we're still here? They may start to think they are not believers or that God's promises are not true. Don't be surprised if we do start to go thru some pretty unsettling tribulation to come. We must endure and wait it out and know he will cut short the days when he deems it to be the right time. All in his timing.

After coming out of much turmoil and tears God will comfort them promising them no more hunger and no more thirst. He will shepherd them. A shepherd in the Gk is another word for Pastor. What a day that will be when we finally have Jesus as our Pastor forever.

For thus says the Lord God: “Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12“As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13“And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14“I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15“I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,” says the Lord God. 16“I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.” Ezek 34:11-16



12,651 views 95 replies
Reply #26 Top
KFC pOSTS:
What you're saying is the 144,000 is really not specific but later when the "great multitude which no man can number" is specific and is the same as saying 144,000? This sounds backwards to me Lula. Also then think about this...... how come it says 12,000 OUT OF each tribe? Isn't that specific?



Apocalypse is filled with symbolism especially the numbers.

RE: the 12,000....

Just as 144,000 is, that's symbolic too.

Apoc. 7:3-4 first tells us the number 144,000 sealed "servants of God", a symbolic number to illustrate the symbolic sense of the Christian Church and its battle against evil in the world. The 12 tribes as numbered in Numbers 1:20-46 total 603,550. In 2:1-34 this number is repeated in divisions of 4 groups. But we don't see that 603,550 warriors are sealed, only 144,000. In other words, symbolically representing all those who have been sealed, (I'd say baptised) Christians and conscripted in God's service and serve Him faithfully.

The 144,000 seems small in comparison in the battle against the world's numbers. Similiar thing in Judges 7:1-18, Gideon desired 32,000 men and God gave him only 300. With God's help and protection, the enemy will be soundly defeated.

V.6-8 gives us more detailed information of the same tribes sealed with the symbolism of the 12,000. There were actually 14 tribes since the tribe of Joseph was split. Yet, St.John's vision lists 12 tribes probably due to the significance of the numbers 12 and 144. We'll see the numbers 12 and 144 again in Apoc. 21:12-27.
Here there is also a connection regarding the 24 ancients, of Apoc. 4-5.

Another comparison is just as there were 14 tribes, there were also 14 Apostles, since the addition of St. Matthias and St.Paul to the orignial number.



The most we can say with complete assurance is that everything is somehow connected together for God's plan of salvation to come to its fullness at the end of the world which is what the Apocalypse's main theme is. All of the reading in-between are parts of the main theme. Sometimes I liken it to going through a maze to put a puzzle together.

PS

Regardless of whether or not we agree or disagree on some of the finer points of interpretation, which I think is par for the course in discussing Revelation, I want to thank you again for your writing and giving us an opportunity to read St.John in such an interesting manner.


Reply #27 Top
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You asked :Show me anywhere in scripture where it says that believers will go thru God's wrath. I've shown you many specific scriptures that say they won't including 3:10. and that's what I did.


No you didn't. You gave me NO scripture. You just keep bringing up 70 AD. God said many times his own will NOT go thru his wrath. We have examples of this in NOAH, ABRAHAM, LOT. When God's wrath came down from heaven they were TAKEN out first. That's what I'm saying about end times as well. Before this 7th Seal, his own WILL BE taken out first. I've given you 3:10 as well as many other scriptures along the way that says we will not be included in God's wrath. You have NOT given me anything to back up your thought other than 70AD. That was NOT God's wrath being poured out from heaven BTW. That was a time of tribulation (one of many) that come to people on the earth. God just takes his hand of protection off and let's man do to man whatever it is they desire to do (usually not a good thing) for whatever reason he has in mind.

Even in 70AD the Christians fled and settled in and around Asia Minor. I believe they DID HAVE the hand of God protecting them even during this destruction of Jerusalem, but it still was NOT God's wrath poured out on Jerusalem.

You think believers will be raptured away and not have to persevere through this coming time of persecution, and I say we'll all be here but through God's grace and mercy protected in some way.


yes that's right. But it's not persecution but God's wrath. Big diff.

Some way? What way? I'm talking about God's wrath coming down on the earth from above.


To me, the "great multitude which no man can number" means the number of those who pesevered to the end in the good fight of faith and are now in Heaven. It is the very same as the 144,000 when taken symbolically to mean the whole, complete number


you say "to me" so it's your opinion? I'm saying it's very clear right there. It says these are those who have come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION. This is the only time where this is called the "Great" tribulation. So while we agree they are in heaven we seem to disagree on WHO they are.

I think we may agree on believers not escaping tribulation, but don't understand when, how, where, why believers will escape God's wrath


Yes we do agree on this first part. Believers have in the past had tribulations in the world and will continue to do so. There is going to be a GREAT tribulation tho that Christ and John spoke of. We who endure to the end will be saved thru it. Others will die first. Then the rapture will happen (1 Thess 4 and right here during this time in Revelation) to get the believers out before the wrath of God is unleashed. Then there will be silence in heaven (8:1) before God's wrath comes down.

Regardless of whether or not we agree or disagree on some of the finer points of interpretation, which I think is par for the course in discussing Revelation, I want to thank you again for your writing and giving us an opportunity to read St.John in such an interesting manner.


My pleasure Lula. It sure is interesting.

Reply #28 Top
God said many times his own will NOT go thru his wrath. We have examples of this in NOAH, ABRAHAM, LOT. When God's wrath came down from heaven they were TAKEN out first.



No, KFC, they weren't taken out; they were protected from it.

Noah and his family weren't taken out from the flood. They went through it. They listened to God and by His protection, they endured the 40 days and nights of rain, they endured the deluge.

God's wrath came down on the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot and his family weren't taken out. They listened to God and by His protection they knew when and in what way to leave the city.

In the days of Moses, God's wrath came down upon the Egyptians. The Israelites weren't taken out. They went through it. They listened to God and by His protection, they signed their houses with blood.


Christians, at the end of the world, won't be taken out from God's wrath but be protected from it...much the very same way He has been protecting His people all through salvation history.
Reply #29 Top
To me, the "great multitude which no man can number" means the number of those who pesevered to the end in the good fight of faith and are now in Heaven. It is the very same as the 144,000 when taken symbolically to mean the whole, complete number


you say "to me" so it's your opinion?


Yes, it's my opinion...nothing dogmatic stated at all.
Reply #30 Top
No, KFC, they weren't taken out; they were protected from it.


You might be interested to know that some believe that Noah is an example of one who will be on the earth during those end times, yet protected, as Noah was protected and sealed in the boat. Enoch was an example of one "taken out" of the world similar to what is to happen in the ent time rapture.

But I see Noah was taken out and protected via the ark. Lot was "taken out" of Sodom before God's wrath came down. Now they weren't raptured. I understand that but regardless they were removed before God's wrath was unleashed. He moved them out.

I believe from reading scripture the Christains will also be "removed" via the rapture instead of an ark. That's the only diff.

Another thought here (sidetrack) I imagine Noah was very poor using all his resources in building that Ark. He gave it all to God, his time, energy and money. But after the flood he was the richest man alive. He owned the whole earth. Imagine that!!

Christians, at the end of the world, won't be taken out from God's wrath but be protected from it...much the very same way He has been protecting His people all through salvation history.


How? God's wrath is nothing like what has been happening in salvation history. It's totally different. It's going to affect the physical world. His wrath will be poured out "without mixture" it says in Revelation.

I believe he'll have to remove us before he does these upcoming things.

Reply #31 Top
Lot was "taken out" of Sodom before God's wrath came down. Now they weren't raptured. I understand that but regardless they were removed before God's wrath was unleashed. He moved them out.


Well, technically speaking, literally speaking, Lot was not removed nor did God move them out. God protected them by telling them what to do and when. While the son-in-laws didn't heed God's advice, Lot and his family did and fled the Sodom and Gomarrah before God's judgment came down upon them. Very similiar the first Jewish Christians whom God saved by telling them what to do and when. When they saw the signs Jesus has prophecied, they took Jesus' advise and they fled Jerusalem in 70AD before God's judgment through the Roman army came down upon the city destroying the city and Herod's Temple.

LULA POSTS:
Christians, at the end of the world, won't be taken out from God's wrath but be protected from it...much the very same way He has been protecting His people all through salvation history.


How? God's wrath is nothing like what has been happening in salvation history. It's totally different. It's going to affect the physical world. His wrath will be poured out "without mixture" it says in Revelation.


God's wrath that you're talking about here is at the very end of time and of the world...this is followed by the Second Coming and the General Judgment, then it's eternal life spent in Heaven or Hell.




Enoch was an example of one "taken out" of the world....


Yes, we've got agreement that (H)enoch was "taken out" of the world...   however, no agreement on this...

he'll have to remove us before he does these upcoming things.
  

and the beat goes on.....I see you have Revelation 8 posted.   

Reply #32 Top
Well, technically speaking, literally speaking, Lot was not removed nor did God move them out. God protected them by telling them what to do and when.


He sent two angels to bring Lot out. When Christ comes back he's coming back to lead us out as well.None of us will be taken by force.

If God was only going to protect Lot like us in the end time, why didn't he just protect Lot right there in the middle of Sodom? That's what you're saying about us right? God is going to protect us somehow you say. How is that I want to know. He didn't do that with Lot. He took him out, then wiped out Sodom. He will take us out, then wipe out earth.

Reply #33 Top
The answer is they came out of the Great Tribulation. This is the only place and time where the tribulation is called the "Great Tribulation." This is the second half of Daniel's week. This is occurring right after the 6th seal and before the 7th. These are those who have entered heaven. I believe these could quite possibly be those that have been raptured. This would be another way of saying the rapture occurs "pre-wrath." It's not as popular as a "pre-trib rapture" but it may make much more sense when you take Matthew 24 and lay it side by side with what we've been reading thus far in Revelation.



If I understand correctly, Rapurists believe the “great tribulation” hasn’t occurred yet, but will occur during the seven years immediately after the secret rapture.

In the Douay Rheims, besides this one, the “great tribulation” is used 3 other times in the NT---- in Acts 7:11, Apoc. 2:22, and St.Matt. 24:21.

It seems to me that the “great tribulation” of Apoc.7 and St.Matt. 24 has already been fulfilled.

Apoc. 7:13-14, “Then one of the elders addressed me saying: ‘Who are these clothed in white robes, and where have they come?’ I said to him: ‘Sir, you know. And he told me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’"

St.Matt. 24:21-22, "For there shall be then great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. 22 And unless those days had been shortened, no human being should be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened."

Here, when answering His disciples’ 2 questions, Jesus, using similar language to Daniel 12:1, prophesied the “great tribulation” was referring to a time when the Roman Empire would persecute Christians before destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

To protect the first Christians, He gave them 8 signs to look for...false messiahs...wars...famines and earthquakes...tribulation..apostasy...the world wide gospel...and Daniel’s desolating sacrilege. V. 21, Jesus' 5th sign is the “great tribulation” of His infant Church first under the persecution of the Jewish authorities then under Nero from 64 to 67AD. The 5th sign is a warning that His young and small Church is about to enter into a battle for virtual survival.

Was the “great tribulation” the worse that has ever been and will be (until the end of the world and Christ’s Second Coming) ? I think yes. If Nero’s full might against the newly formed, young and small Church (still considered a sect within Judaism) had been able to continue much longer or if Jerusalem Christians had not fled to the mountains, they would have easily been completely destroyed.

Concerning v. 22, “And unless those days had been shortened, no human being should be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened."

Could there be a supernatural (spiritual) explanation of the survival of the Infant Church? I think so. Nero’s persecution of the Church started in 64 after the burning of Rome and continued unabated until 67 when Rome’s wrath shifted from the Christian community to Jerusalem. The timing of these events has supernatural meaning because the Christians couldn’t have endured this type of state persecution much longer. God mercifully intervened; He “shortened those days”. To me, this was the Church’s “Great Tribulation” that both Apoc. 7 and St.Matt. 24 refer to. Why? Because never again will God’s New Covenant people be in such a vulnerable position. Following this, history tells us that Rome would once again focus its hatred on the Church and persecute it for two more centuries. By this time, it had already grown much stronger and was able to survive. It is in this sense that I see the “great tribulation” that Jesus prophesied as fulfilled. We know there were a great many martyrs that came out of the “great tribulation” and these are who St.John is writing in Apocalypse 7:13-14.

St.Matt. 24: 21’s description of a tribulation so terrible that it was never experienced before also fits numerous OT prophecies concerning God’s judgments upon the Jewish people. God punished the Jews by means of the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. But at Christ’s death, the Jews experienced the physical destruction of their nation at the hands of the Roman armies followed by their expulsion from their homeland within 40 years of Christ’s death.

Besides the physical destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, there was a spiritual judgment as well first initiated by Christ’s death on the Cross, the Temple veil was rent from top to bottom, and the 40 year time span where the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple ended the Old Covenant sacrifices, ceremonies and rites (biblical Judaism) once and for all time.


The major fulfillment of St.Matt. 24 was accomplished in 70AD. Since the references to events in the Apocalypse which are said to “shortly come to pass” suggests the chronological proximity of Jerusalem’s destruction, I view much of the Apocalypse as having been fulfilled in the first century.

According to Biblical principles concerning prophecy, the “great tribulation” can also stand for the prophetic event of the final test of the Church at the end of the world when Christ will come again in Final Judgment.

Therefore, St.Matt 24 can also be an application to future events as in multiple fulfillments. This is also true of the Apocalypse. Why? because the spiritual battle between good and evil wages on and will until the end of the world. The Apocalypse always pointing to the Second Coming of Christ tells the battle will continue throughout salvation history, and at the same time, it’s already been won for “Christ has overcome the world”.




Reply #34 Top
I think we should make a list of all the foretold judgements/wraths and then Lula can tell us each event that corresponds to 70AD.
Reply #35 Top
If I understand correctly, Rapurists believe the “great tribulation” hasn’t occurred yet, but will occur during the seven years immediately after the secret rapture.


You're partly right Lula. Rapurists don't believe the Great Trib has started yet. But it's only going to be for a short period of time, not the whole seven years. The Great Tribulation is actually defined in Matt 24:15-21. Notice when the Great Tribulation starts according to Christ. He said it will happen AFTER the abomination of desolation.

Most of the time people use the word tribulation for all of the 7 years. It's not right tho. While we will have tribulation in the beginning it turns into a Great Tribulation after the AC takes power. Then shortly after that comes the wrath of God which as I've said is totally diff. Most just lump it all in as the same. I heard Adrian Rogers (whom I love) on the radio yesterday say we will escape the tribulation (wrong) and then he went on to quote verses that said that God has not appointed us to wrath. They are not the same thing.

It seems to me that the “great tribulation” of Apoc.7 and St.Matt. 24 has already been fulfilled


Then you'd have to answer when did the Abomination of Desolation happen according to Matt 24:15.

I've shown you how it fits exactly with Revelation as we've gone along. It's actually part of the 5th seal.

Was the “great tribulation” the worse that has ever been and will be (until the end of the world and Christ’s Second Coming) ? I think yes.


how can you say this Lula with two WW's behind us not that long ago? So you're saying the "Great Trib that the world has never seen" before happened already? That was 2,000 years ago. So that was it? Well I'm glad at least you said "you think" instead of you "know" this to be true. This only affected a small part of the world, the Great Trib is going to affect the whole world as we will continue to see.

Therefore, St.Matt 24 can also be an application to future events as in multiple fulfillments.


Sounds like you're talking about double fulfillment which I would agree with.

I think we should make a list of all the foretold judgements/wraths and then Lula can tell us each event that corresponds to 70AD.


go for it Jythier. I still haven't figured out when every mountain and island fell into the sea in 70AD. Now I can imagine it's about to happen with all the latest news about tsumanis and earthquakes.....but 70AD? Don't see it.



























Reply #36 Top
The Great Tribulation is actually defined in Matt 24:15-21. Notice when the Great Tribulation starts according to Christ. He said it will happen AFTER the abomination of desolation.


St.Matt. 24: 15-22 Here, Christ is answering His disciple's question concerning when the Temple in Jerusalem shall be destroyed. He gives them 8 signs...the Abomination of desolation is the last sign. Christ says,

15 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: (he who reads let him understand);
16 Then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains;
17 He upon the housetop, let him not come down to take anything out of his house;
18 And he in the field, let him not go back to take his coat;
19 and woe to those who are pregnant and who give suck in those days.
20 But pray that your flight is not in winter or on sabbath.
21 For then there shall be great tribulation such as the world has not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither ever shall be
22 And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: bit for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.


No, I can't agree with your reading of these passages. V. 15-21 doesn's describe when the "great tribulation" starts; rather it the time very close the actual destruction of destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD which was the end of great tribulation for the first Christians.

The "abomination of desolation" was the 8th and last sign that Christ prophecied. He said when the Christians in Jerusalem saw Daniel's desolating sacrilege (that is the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem) to immediately flee to the mountains, that is not take time to go back to their house or even pick up a coat...(my reply #33 describes this.)

Lula posts:
It seems to me that the “great tribulation” of Apoc.7 and St.Matt. 24 has already been fulfilled


KFC POSTS: Then you'd have to answer when did the Abomination of Desolation happen according to Matt 24:15.




Here in verse 15, the “abomination of desolation” aka “the desolating sacrilege”, Jesus is referring to a prophecy in Daniel (9:27; 11:31; 12:11) where Daniel foretold that the Syrian king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, would occupy the Temple. This came to pass and the idol was set up on the altar--a sign of abomination (idolatry) and desolation. Our Lord applies this episode to the future destruction of Jerusalem ---asking people “let the reader understand” to pay more heed to the text of Daniel. Jesus tells them that a new "abomination of desolation" will occur ruining the Temple to make way for idolatrous worship---as happened in 70AD when the Roman armies destroyed and profaned the temple, and later, under Hadrian, who ordered the erection of a statue of Jupiter on the ruins.

So, in short, Daniel's "desolating abomination" is what Antiochus did to the Temple in Jerusalem and the new "abomination of desolation" that Christ refers to in St.Matt. 24:15 occured in 70AD, Daniels' 70th week, when the Roman army profaned the Temple.

I've checked both the Latin and the Greek "abomination of desolation". As used here, it's a phrase that is neuter gender implying the abomination does not necessarily apply to a person, but to an event. Daniel has three places where he uses the phrase which denote intense desolation. It seems to me that the huge Roman army destroying Jerusalem and the Temple, first profaning it and then tearing it down stone by stone, fits the meaning of "intense desolation". The Temple itself, the Temple sacrifice and ceremonial rites was/is no more...that's intense.
Reply #37 Top
No I don't agree with what you said above at all. It's a preterist view. Yes, you can APPLY some of this to 70AD (the fleeing to the Mountians etc) but the whole discourse is about the end times. I noticed you didn't put v14 in there. It says before all what you wrote about:

And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and THEN SHALL THE END COME.

The gospel preaching was in its infancy back then with the scriptures just barely being finished with some not quite finished. Not even remotely close to being preached thru the whole world in 70AD.

He then goes right into the answer to the question put to him in v3:

"Tell us WHEN shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world."

While some of what you think or believe could be applied to 70AD it wasn't about then but for the end times. The Abomination of Desolation will be the Anti Christ taking over the world being successful for a season. Think Hitler, Think Alexander the Great, etc. Only this time Satan's man will be finally able to accomplish what Satan has been waiting to happen but only because God allows it. It's all his timing.

I agree the abomination of desolation is an event. Where we differ is the fact that you think it's over and I think it's future. Although there was another time with Epiphanes back before Christ that this happened as well. Daniel mentions this time also.

Reply #38 Top
Then the rapture will happen (1 Thess 4 and right here during this time in Revelation) to get the believers out before the wrath of God is unleashed. Then there will be silence in heaven (8:1) before God's wrath comes down.


You're dogmatically reading the Rapture Theory into the Scriptural text. I couldn't disagree more. It doesn't fit, it doesn't belong there and it doesn't make sense with the rest of Scripture or with Christ's teachings.

When we examine Scripture to see what it plainly tells us about Christ's Second Coming for the Final Judgment, it says nothing of getting believers out and it promises no escape from the persecution of the Antichrist.

Instead Scripture predicts that Christ's coming will be a glorious public event. It warns Christians that until He comes, they will suffer tribulation and if they are living on earth when Antichrist comes, they will suffer great tribulation. It promises that if they endure to the end by God's grace, they will be saved.


It's your timing of when 1Thess.4:15-17 occurs that I call into question. The timing and the order of each different event at the final eschaton is important to understand.

It seems to me that the rapture described in 1Thess. 4:15-17 occurs at the General Resurrection. Here it is:

15For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not proceed those who are asleep
16 For the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with a word of command, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are IN Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. Comfort one another with these words."


I view Scripture describing the timing and order of the events proceeding Christ's Second Coming and the Final Judgment as follows:

Now: The millenium Church age--battle between good and evil--beginnings of sorrows, sufferings, natural disturbances, wars, universal Gospel-- constant call to repentance and belief in Christ, conversion of Jews; Church age ends

Days of the End of world: Satan unchained for short time--Antichrist--great apostasy, great martyrdom, great tribulation, extraordinary disturbances of nature..this is where I would place the short time of silence in Heaven--followed by the end of the whole world by fire....after this the whole appearance of the earth will be completely changed.

The Last day:General Resurrection of the just and unjust---
The first event that will happen upon the end of the world is the general resurrection of the dead v. 16. God will send out His angels who will blow a mighty trumpet blast that will re-echo throughout the whole world and cause the earth to tremble. Everyone must obey the sound. Every one, including those conceived in the womb, that has died, will rise again in the general resurrection of the dead. St.Paul says, “We shall indeed all rise again, but we shall not all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible; and we shall be changed.” 1Cor. 40: 51-52.

V. 16 tells us the first to be resurrected from the dead are those who have died IN Christ. This is the resurrection of the just; good or elect. Concerning this Christ says, “He shall send His angels with a trumpet and a great voice; and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.” St.Matt. 24:31.

The general resurrection begins while the trumpet sound still re-echoes over the globe. Awakened by the sound, all the souls of the just will come down from the farthest parts of heaven accompanied by their guardian angels. The grave site where their bodily remains were will be opened and through the power of God the body made incorrupt will be reunited with the soul. This on the authority of God’s omnipotence and His word, no matter how long ago the body of a man may have turned into dust, whatever changes it went through, every portion and particle will unite to form again the same body which was during his lifetime. “And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them.” Apoc. 20:13.

That the just will take precedence over the wicked is told by Christ, “Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh where all that are in their graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have done good things shall come forth to the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” St.Jn. 5:28-29.

The resurrection of the wicked follows immediately upon that of the just...but it’s different for them. In every burying ground of the lost souls the bodies will resemble devils more than men, thus soul and the body will mutually anathematize each other.


If the good and evil are found together in the grave sites, that will come to pass which our Lord predicted, “So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall go out and shall separate the wicked from among the just.” St. Matt. 13:39. Since the good are laid to rest amongst the wicked, it follows that at the general resurrection , they will be found amongst the wicked as well. Accordingly, after the general resurrection, the holy angels will come and separate the just elect from the wicked reprobate.

This is where v. 17 applies, “Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord......"

“shall be taken together with them” that is those elect who have just risen from the dead in the General Resurrection. St.Paul tells them that those who are alive, who are left, will be caught up, that is changed, made from being corruptible and mortal to being incorruptible and immortal, and together with those elect who have just risen from the dead, will be taken in the clouds to meet Christ in the air. So, all the just, good, elect, will be carried on the clouds in splendor and great glory by the holy angels to the place of judgment.


CHrist's Second Coming for Final Judgement of the living and the dead: With the solemn blast of the trumpet, God will cause all men, the living and the dead to be summoned to the Last Judgment. All of us, everyone everywhere, will come before Christ at the Last Judgment.

St.Matt.25: 31-46 describes how Christ judges each one and then separates the just, good, the elect from the wicked and what happens to each one after that.

Reply #39 Top
Attempting to stop the bold . . .
Reply #40 Top
Maybe this will work . . .
Reply #41 Top
Arrgh! Nothing seems to work!

Stupid bold.
Reply #42 Top


I just assumed everyone wanted to make bold statements.
Reply #43 Top
You killed it! How come you could do it and I couldn't?!?!?!
Reply #44 Top
10 End Bold Tags.
Reply #45 Top

St.Matt. 24: 15-22 Here, Christ is answering His disciple's question concerning when the Temple in Jerusalem shall be destroyed. He gives them 8 signs...the Abomination of desolation is the last sign. Christ says,

15 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: (he who reads let him understand);
16 Then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains;
17 He upon the housetop, let him not come down to take anything out of his house;
18 And he in the field, let him not go back to take his coat;
19 and woe to those who are pregnant and who give suck in those days.
20 But pray that your flight is not in winter or on sabbath.
21 For then there shall be great tribulation such as the world has not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither ever shall be
22 And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: bit for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.


No I don't agree with what you said above at all. It's a preterist view. Yes, you can APPLY some of this to 70AD (the fleeing to the Mountians etc) but the whole discourse is about the end times.


KFC,
You surely know as well as I do that the entire discourse is not only about the end times. Verse 2 of the discourse begins with Christ saying of the Temple, "Do you see these things? Amen I say you, there shall be not left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed." The disciples then ask two questions, one concerning the signs of the destruction of the Temple and the Second Coming of Christ and end of the world.

I have shown how these verses both apply to and some fulfilled in 70AD. The great tribulation Jesus predicts here has already come to pass including v. 22, the significance and explanation of why those days were shortened. The abomination of desolation was the sign that told the Jewish Christians to save themselves by after seeing the abomination of desolation immediately fleeing to the mountains.

The reliability of Jesus' first answer gives us confidence in His second answer, which is still unfilfilled. It seems at least some of the events surrounding 70AD act as a prophecy pointing to the Second Coming.

We've seen the "abomination of desolation" re-occurred throughout OLd Covenant and it's Temple history. But there is no longer an Old Covenant, no longer a Temple, no longer Temple sacrifices. It is in this sense that I am pointing out that these passages are already fulfilled. We are now under the New and Everlasting Covenant of grace. I don't see anywhere in Scripture of going back to the Old Covenant, the Temple or the Temple sacrifice. Perhaps you do...


Reply #46 Top
Attempting to stop the bold . . .


Hi guys....

Could it be that the bold comes from ...

The original article (which is in bold at least on my computer)...

If I copy from that, then the bold seems to hold sway...


Reply #47 Top
I don't see anywhere in Scripture of going back to the Old Covenant, the Temple or the Temple sacrifice. Perhaps you do...


no, I don't either. There is no going back. Christ when he pointed to the abomination (Matt 24:15) was talking future. It was a sign of the end. You think it's about 70AD and I read from scripture that it's future end times.

It doesn't fit, it doesn't belong there and it doesn't make sense with the rest of Scripture or with Christ's teachings.


it actually fits perfectly and the reason I've gone from being pre-trib to pre-wrath. It fits much better than pre-trib does.

When we examine Scripture to see what it plainly tells us about Christ's Second Coming for the Final Judgment, it says nothing of getting believers out and it promises no escape from the persecution of the Antichrist.


I never said anything about us escaping the AC. I said repeatedly now many times that it's about escaping God's wrath. We WILL go thru Tribulation and even GREAT Tribulation but we WILL NOT go thru God's wrath. It's for the unbelievers only.
You seem to be having a hard time with this Lula. I don't know how else to say this.

It promises that if they endure to the end by God's grace, they will be saved.


YES. OF THE TRIBULATION. I've already covered this as well. Not God's wrath (who will be able to stand...remember?) Rev 3:10 and 1 Thess 5:9 for starters:

"FOR GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

Let's just agree to disagree Lula. I don't hold to nor do I think the Preterist view makes any sense. You totally skipped v14 in Matt which very clearly states before all this happens the gospel will be reached to the whole world. This hasn't even happened yet. Ever hear of the 10/40 window?

V15 is a clue. It had nothing to do with 70AD. Nothing. The abomination is someone else standing in God's place and God's holy city (Zion) and declaring himself God. This will be the AC in the future.







Reply #48 Top
I don't see anywhere in Scripture of going back to the Old Covenant, the Temple or the Temple sacrifice. Perhaps you do...


no, I don't either. There is no going back. Christ when he pointed to the abomination (Matt 24:15) was talking future. It was a sign of the end. You think it's about 70AD and I read from scripture that it's future end times.


OKay, good.

Of St.Matt. 24:15, Christ is speaking in 33AD. The destruction of the Temple which He predicted was the future, just not the distant future...

Are these 8 signs the signs of Christ's Second Coming?

It doesn't fit, it doesn't belong there and it doesn't make sense with the rest of Scripture or with Christ's teachings.


it actually fits perfectly and the reason I've gone from being pre-trib to pre-wrath. It fits much better than pre-trib does.


It ONLY fits if one believes in the Rapture theory...

I place the timing of all the Scriptural passages that you refer to the rapture occuring at Christ's Second Coming and the General Resurrection on the Last Day.

If the rapture of 1Thess.4 occurs on the Last Day, then the only wrath of God that is occurring after that is the Final Judgment (which, btw, I've never seen referred to as GOd's wrath.)


I never said anything about us escaping the AC. I said repeatedly now many times that it's about escaping God's wrath. We WILL go thru Tribulation and even GREAT Tribulation but we WILL NOT go thru God's wrath. It's for the unbelievers only.
You seem to be having a hard time with this Lula. I don't know how else to say this.


I'm sorry about my confusion understanding your position. But with this, I think I understand better. For up until now, I thought your position was that believers escape AntiChrist by being raptured out of here. Here you are clearly saying otherwise.

Now, when you say that "We WILL go thru Tribulation and even GREAT Tribulation but we WILL NOT go thru God's wrath. It's for the unbelievers only."

Does this mean you think believers will not be judged at the Final Judgment? Is that what "will not go through God's wrath" means to you? If it's not the Final Judgment, then when is God's wrath that will be for only unbelievers?

Not God's wrath (who will be able to stand...remember?) Rev 3:10 and 1 Thess 5:9 for starters:

"FOR GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."


Citing Rev. 3:10 is of no help becasue if I recall correctly, we disagreed on the interpretation of "who will be able to stand"....

what does "FOR GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH? mean to you? What is wrath here? I clearly don't understand your meaning of wrath.
Reply #49 Top
Does this mean you think believers will not be judged at the Final Judgment?


Yes they will NOT be judged at the Final White Throne Judgment at the end of Revelation. They have passed over from life to death when they accepted Christ on THIS side of eternity. That's why it's so important to make a decision for Christ now while we are in the flesh and before we pass over.


For up until now, I thought your position was that believers escape AntiChrist by being raptured out of here. Here you are clearly saying otherwise.


That's a pre-trib position Lula and one that I have hung onto for many years but now that I understand better there's a diff between God's wrath and tribulation I can see it makes more sense that the rapture is AFTER the tribulation.

Is that what "will not go through God's wrath" means to you? If it's not the Final Judgment, then when is God's wrath that will be for only unbelievers?


No, God's wrath is the trumpet judgments that we are just getting into. His wrath really begins with the 7th seal after the time of silence. After the silence comes the wrath of God and the timing of all this is about 3 years (or so). It's over a period of time and we will talk about that in the next segment. but it's after Chap 7 where we saw the multitude in heaven (raptured). It goes like this.

1. Great Tribulation (AC led)
2. Rapture
3. Multitude seen in heaven
4. God's wrath poured out
5. Final Judgment of all unbelievers

Does that help?

Citing Rev. 3:10 is of no help becasue if I recall correctly, we disagreed on the interpretation of "who will be able to stand"....


I don't see the problem here Lula. The question demands a "negative" answer. The answer is no one is able to stand.

what does "FOR GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH? mean to you? What is wrath here? I clearly don't understand your meaning of wrath.


I can see that. You don't understand what the "wrath of God" means or looks like Lula? I'm sure your kids have seen the "wrath of mom" on occasion. I know I've shown my kids that wrath from time to time. It's when you've said...."enough!" No more and then start acting on that statement.

It looks like what happened in Noah's day. It looks like what happened in Lot's Day. It's God saying, ENOUGH! I'm done with this. I'm taking my people, the door is shutting and I'm destroying the earth. God shut Noah up himself and poured his wrath down on the earth via the flood.

Only in Lot's Day it was two cities that were totally corrupt. So it was more of a local thing. But in THAT day it will be a world-wide event. We are just starting to hit upon the wrath of God in Chap 8. We will continue in the next segment.





Reply #50 Top
Let's just agree to disagree Lula. I don't hold to nor do I think the Preterist view makes any sense. You totally skipped v14 in Matt which very clearly states before all this happens the gospel will be reached to the whole world. This hasn't even happened yet.


I didn't respond to v. 14 because I was pressed for time. I will address that now.

The Preaching of the gospel was the 7th sign that Jesus warned His disciples that would be linked to the "end" of the Temple. The early Chruch in those days leading up to 70AD certainly understood that the Gospel had been preached to the whole world. My heavens, they all thought Christ's Second Coming was very near, even though He had insisted that the time is unknown. They all thought the end was near. 1Thess. 4:15-17 is a very good example of this as St. Paul was assuring the Thessalonian Christians that those who were alive when the end came wouldn't have any advantage over those who had already died. Thus came the instruction of the General Resurrection.


Besides that, writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, St.Paul states in his lifetime, the faith of the Chruch in Rome, "is proclaimed in all the world." Romans 1:8.
Col. 1:5-6, he writes, "You have heard..the gospel...as indeed inthe whole world it is bearing fruit and growing."

Clement was bishop of Rome in 67-73 AD, wrote that St.Peter and Paul had been martyred but not before "they taught righteousness to the whole world and they came to the extreme limit of the west."

I can go on with quoting this same understanding from the writings of the Chruch Fathers, particularly St.Justin Martyr, Eusebuis, and St.Bede.

Also, there are two Greek words used for "world". IN St.Matt. 24, the word "oikoumeme" which specifically means the civilized world delineated at the time by the boundaries of the Roman Empire. To them, in those days, the Gospel was preached to the entire world. Kosmos appears later "from the beginning of the world until now." 24:21. The Apostles certainly knew the usage of the 2 words. Jesus taught His disciples that the 'end' of the Temple would follow the preaching of the Gospel throughout the civilized world, which then, was the Roman Empire.


Does this mean you think believers will not be judged at the Final Judgment?


Yes they will NOT be judged at the Final White Throne Judgment at the end of Revelation.


We will have to agree to disagree upon this one. All will be judged. Christians know that God's judgment can also come upon them, "for the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God." 1St.Peter 4:17.

I agree that if one lives in loving faith and hopes for the Lord, then he will not experience the wrath of God's judgment as eternal damnation. He will be judged and go to eternal bliss...right now to me, everyone will be judged....but, hey, I'm still learning, ...