Revelation 7:9-17-The Rapture

KFC,

Well, I must admit, that I expected that you would pull out the Rapture Theory some time...and here it is...in the interlude between the 6th and 7th seals.

I cannot agree with your interpretation. I'll get into specifics as to why not in a little bit.



Yes, there is. The six seals view the judgments of God from the perspective of Christ, and the 7th seal views these same events from the perspective of mankind.

Again, and I can't emphasize this enough, St.John is writing to the Christians of his day who are undergoing severe tribulation and God's wrath (judgements). What he writes is intended for comfort, encouragement and solace of the readers in his day and beyond for all those in the ages to come. We read the Apocalypse to better understand the future.


When reading chapters 6-9, we see St.John's use of colorful, vivid, apocalyptic literary drama unfolding to assure us that God is aware of our suffering, pain, and feelings of injustice, etc. that comes from evil doings here on earth. Through the Apocalypse and other Scriptural books, we have His solemn promise that He will right all wrongs when He comes again to usher in His final victory at the end of the world.

Apocalypse 7:9-17 says:

9 After this I saw a multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palm branches in their hands:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!”
11 And all the angels stood around the throne, and the elders (ancients) and the four living creatures; and thye fell down upon their faces before the throne and adored God,
12 Saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, and thanksgiving honor and power and strength to our God for ever and ever. Amen."
13 And one of the elders answered, and said to me: “These that are arrayed in white robes, Who are they and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him: “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me: “These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple: And He, who sits on the throne shall dwell over them.
16 “They shall no more hunger nor thirst, neither shall the sun fall on them, nor any heat.
17 “for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shall rule them and shall lead them to the fountains of the waters of life, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”


So here we have the second half of chapter 7 which is the interlude between the 6th and 7th seals. It depicts a multitude of God's loyal followers, now saints in Heavens, as those who have gone through great tribulation and come through it, persevered by relying on God's power and protection. They are our example. It shows us that, like them who have died in the faith before us, we too, can stand firm with hope and confidence and persevere to the end---of our natural lives or to the end of the world, whichever comes first.

Rapture teachers claim that Christians must be snatched from the world becasue God has promised them an escape from 'great tribulation' of the last days. But actually Scripture knows nothing of Christians being snatched away, or "raptured" in this sense.

Apoc. 7:9-12 is the inspiring word of God that strengthens, encourages and consoles, as well as challenge, us to think about our own life and death. Jesus prophecied that the Chruch will suffer tribulation, and He promised the one who in the time of trial, "who perseveres to the end will be saved."

KFC,

I disagree that we are moving from one group of people to another. It’s the same people one scene in the interlude describes them on earth and the second scene describes these same people victorious in Heaven.

One interpretation has the first part of St. John’s interlude, Apoc. 7: 1-8 , the 144,000 described as the complete number ( in this instance a huge multitude) the people of the New Covenant, the New Israel on earth. V. 9-17 is the second part of the interlude in which St. John is shown the same multitude “clothed in white robes” at the throne of God. After they had battled victoriously, with God’s help and protection (seal), through all the ordeals and tribulations of the earth, arrived at their final goal...eternal life in Heaven.

The second part compliments and finishes the symbolism of 144,000 insofar as the promised deliverance in the first is completed and realized in its fullest and final sense.

It certainly makes sense to the reader of both St.John’s time as well as beyond in any age. The intention of the final outcome awakens the conviction to persevere in the faith if need be even to the extent of giving one’s life.



the specific number in the first scene is the same number in the second, only we now learn a little more about that specific number--- it’s a great multitude which no one can number.

KFC POSTS:






Pope John Paul II has commented on v. 9-17 and seems to be one of those who thinks the “great multitude” includes all the saved.

He writes in his homily in 1981, the people dressed in white robes are the redeemed. ...the Blood of the Lamb who has been offered in sacrifice for all, has exercised its most effective and universal redemptive power from every corner of the world extending grace and salvation to the great multitude.

After going through trials and being purified in the Blood of Christ, the redeemed are now safe in the Kingdom of God whom they praise and bless for ever and ever. This great multitude includes all the saved and not just the martyrs, for it says that they washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb, not in their own blood.

In v. 14-17, we see two different situations. V. 14 is before the resurrection of the body.
and then in v. 15-17, it’s after it, when body and soul have been reunited.

We know this becasue in this second situation the nature of risen bodies is highlighted. They cannot suffer pain or inconvenience, of any kind. They are out of harm’s reach, they have the gift of impassiblity.

Again, to St. John’s readers who were going through severe persecution and to us today knowing that we will have future tribulation, this is a very consoling scene encourageing believers to imitate those Christians who were like us and now find themselves in Heaven becasue they have come through victorious.

oh my gosh Lula. I haven't read a word you said.....yet. I just wanted to say WOWZA. I know I'm going to be in for it aren't I?

St.John is writing to the Christians of his day who are undergoing severe tribulation and God's wrath (judgements).

ok let's start here. Show me anywhere in scripture where it says that believers will go thru God's wrath. I've shown you many specific scriptures that say they won't including 3:10.

Rapture teachers claim that Christians must be snatched from the world becasue God has promised them an escape from 'great tribulation' of the last days

No, NO, NO. Lula. I've said repeatedly they WON"T escape tribulation but ONLY God's wrath. Two diff things. I keep saying this. Why can't you hear this? So no....rapture teachers like me DON"T teach this. You're reading this aren't you? From somewhere? Now, pre-tribulation rapture believers would believe they are escaping the trib and the wrath of God. But that's ONLY pre-trib rapture believers.

Jesus prophecied that the Chruch will suffer tribulation, and He promised the one who in the time of trial, "who perseveres to the end will be saved."

yes, I agree with you here. But the question is.....the end of what? Tribulation? God's wrath? If you look here you see all these people standing before the throne.....BEFORE God's wrath is poured out on the earth (read 3:10 again). Who are they?

I disagree that we are moving from one group of people to another.

I understand that. You have to to come up with what you're coming up with. But it's very clearly two diff people groups. One has a number; one is too numerous to number. Not the same. But you're being told they are....right? But the plain reading shows they are not one and the same. It's clear. Just read the text. There's a definite difference.

the specific number in the first scene is the same number in the second, only we now learn a little more about that specific number--- it’s a great multitude which no one can number.

are you serious? Are you saying this with a straight face? What you're saying is the 144,000 is really not specific but later when the "great multitude which no man can number" is specific and is the same as saying 144,000? This sounds backwards to me Lula. Also then think about this...... how come it says 12,000 OUT OF each tribe? Isn't that specific? So when God said he created the earth in 7 days he didn't really mean it? When Christ was in the tomb for three days, he really didn't mean it? When it rained for 40 days and nights with Noah in the ARK it wasn't really that amount of time? At one point do you take one number literally and another symbolically?

Can't... read... eyes... burning... gah...

awwwwwh Jay I was all excited to see ANOTHER name here but Lula.

You're copping out on me.

I still can't believe you're only 23!!! I thought you were much older. You seem a bit wiser than some around here much older than you!!

That's only because I agree with most of what you say, and I am also adept at holding my tongue. Man, if I let loose like I really wanted to instead of holding back for Christ's sake... well, I'd probably be a lot more controversial, and less wise. When I get controversial, I tend to get things very wrong (as you probably noticed).

I also make a point to try to see what people are REALLY trying to say, though I enjoy making jokes about what they really didn't mean. I try to understand what people are talking about before making comments, by asking questions and rephrasing their main point into easy to understand language. I'm sure it drives people crazy, but it's also really hard to argue with someone's wording when their point is nicely summarized in the first comment and it's perfectly rational...

Now, maybe I'll actually take a run at this thread.. but it's REALLY long, guys... and about the Rapture... which we know what you believe, and we know what Lula believes, so will I really learn anything from it all? Well, we'll see. Or not!

I definitely take exception to Lula saying that 144,000 is also a great multitude which no-one can number. If 144,000 was not numberable, it would not be numbered. It was. End of story.

I think that the numbers represent something for sure. How many apostles were there? 12. That number means something. But there were only 12. There weren't 100 and they just put in the Bible "12" for the sake of the number having special meaning. The meaning doesn't come from just a number written - it comes from the number of whatever it is. So the 144,000 is either a meaningless number representing a multitude, or it's a meaningful number and will be followed exactly when it happens. The number of hairs on your head may be significant, too, but you can't say "I have 144,000 hairs on my head" unless there are that many, and you've counted. You also then couldn't refer to those 144,000 hairs as a multitude of hairs which no-one can number, because you just numbered them.

Actually Jay. I was a dye in the wool pre-trib person for years. I'm still not totally out of those woods yet, but this pre-wrath theory here makes a good lot of sense to me now espeically when you take Matthew 24 and hold it side by side as you read this. So I'm still learning and when I look around at what's been happening I'm starting to think we could very well be in the very beginning stages of the tribulation.

One can't really be dogmatic until after it happens. But it's all in there. We just need to dig around for it.

I tried to make them as short as I can, but there's so much in each section to cover.



hahahah by the looks of it around here, I'm not so wise. I'm too controversial. But hey, I look at the prophets like John and realize he was so controversial he lost his head. So I guess I'm not that bad yet. Last I checked it was still attached.

They think your head's so big it wouldn't fit in the gallows...

Regardless, I don't know what to think about the Rapture. I thought 'come out of the Tribulation' refered to the people who were saved but died during the Trib, which does not necessarily mean a rapture before or during this passage.

Yup, and by your own doing. That's because the Rapture theory is extra-Biblical and you must dubiously interpret Scripture to fit whatever your particular persuasion of the theory is..



Oh, KFC, it promises to be a fun discussion.   

Me too. I think perhaps becasue of the maturity of his thinking, I imagined him somewhere in the early 30's. I'm impressed that he is 23...just keep up the good work, Jythier.



OKay, Jythier, I'll try to explain further. From what I can tell, St.John writes the Apocalypse much along the same lines as Daniel. And what we see over and over again in apocalypitc language is that in one vision, he'll describe an event or a scene and then in a later vision, he'll decribe the same scene but with much more detail. Remember, just as Daniel, St.John's visions were BIG, REALLY BIG ON SYMBOLISM.

That's how I view the two scenes of the interlude in Chapter 7.

In 7:1-8, the 144,000 is described as the complete number of warriors (symbolic of a huge multitude vs. KFC's literal interpretation)that God has chosen. This enumeration of 144,000 seems small compared to the world's numbers but who with God's might and protection will prevail.

In 7:9-17, the second part of the interlude, St. John is shown what I think is the same multitude “clothed in white robes” at the throne of God. After they had battled victoriously, with God’s help and protection (seal), through all the ordeals and tribulations of the earth, arrived at their final goal...eternal life in Heaven.

The second part of the interlude compliments and finishes the first part. The symbolism of 144,000, meaning a complete number, is completed and realized in its fullest and final sense with the promised deliverance of eternal life in Heaven.

All I'm saying is, life is big on symbolism too. So I really can't see a number in the Bible being MORE IMPORTANT than the number of actual people involved.

LULA POSTS:

Let's start by agreeing that when you say God's wrath, it means the same as God's judgements.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple is 70AD is a good example of first Christian believers going through tribulation and God's judgments or wrath.

You cite 3:10 when He was addressing the Chruch at Philadelphia. "Becasue you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

Does this mean He 'raptured' them out of the world? I don't think so. It means that for those who stayed faithful, He will protect them from the hour of trial.

Now, just for fun, let's discuss how God protected those who were faithful at the hour of trial aka the great tribulation leading up to God's judgment (wrath) in 70AD...the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple at the hands of the Roman army. Remember, that Jesus assured His disciples that they were on the winning side of the battle with evil, but there would be a time when their prospects looked bleak. They would suffer from the effects of famine, persecution, and war in the Great Tribulation. We know the Christians suffered under the Neronian persecution and from the Roman army persecution just before the Temple's destruction. Virtually no one escaped the Roman army alive once the seige began. Those trying to escape were caught, whipped, and then crucified by the Romans. Eusebius writes 500 people or more each day and there weren't any trees left. He also notes not a single Christian was caught within Jerusalem when Titus successfully surrounded the city.
The early Chruch had seen the signs of the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. Their faith in Christ's words saved the fledgling Chruch from extinction.

Jesus predicted the total destruction of the Temple and He gave them 8 signs to indicate when to flee to the mountains, to prevent the decimation of His infant Chruch when Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed in 70AD. Jesus told them when to flee the city of Jerusalem. St.Matt. 24:17-20. Right down to not fleeing on the Sabbath. Why? becasue the gates of Jerusalem would be locked for the Sabbath and prohibition of traveling would be enforced by the Temple authorities.

Jesus' admonition to His disciples was opposed to the instincts every other Israelite. He told His followers to flee to the mountains immediately when they saw the desolating abomination of Daniel, which St.Luke identifies as armies surrounding Jerusalem. The Christians knew then and there they were to flee Jerusalem immediately, not to take what is in the house, or who is in the field, etc.

God's wrath happened in 70AD, and the believers went through it.

First even if were God's wrath (which it wasn't) this affected the Jews, not the Christians. You keep bringing up 70AD and that's not what we are discussing here. You bring that up every single blog on Revelation. It's not about 70AD. It's future.

God's wrath is quite evident because it concerns things outside of man. Like the earthquakes, stars falling from heaven, sun not shining, locusts, the islands falling into the sea etc. We havn't even opened up the 7th seal yet. That's when it really gets going.

What happened in 70AD was tribulation for the Jews. God withdrew his hand of protection over them and in a sense he was allowing this to happen as a logical consequense for thier behavior, but it WAS NOT God's wrath the bible speaks about.

Tribulation usually comes from men against men. We are to expect that. God's wrath is coming down from heaven when he unleashes all nature against man (example: the flood) This is future. We are NOT to expect that.

hahahahah I think this is very wise Jay! Very logical.



how appropriate coming from a "numbers guy." I agree with you.

I like how you take a physical picture to explain things. I've seen you do this before. I try to do that as well but I think you do it better than I do.

LULA POSTS:

KFC,

This shows a case of pure stubbornness on your part.

You asked :


and that's what I did.

You seem to want to attribute all the happenings, events, tribulations, etc, only to the Jews in the years leading up to 70AD. Why?

The Book of Acts tells us much about the people of the New Covenant and how they went out and spread the Gospel converting many and history itself tells us more. The Jews and Gentiles who converted to Christianity by 70AD WERE THERE TOO. They lived through suffering, earthquakes, trials, etc. including God's judgment on the Sanhedrin. He saved those who would listen (the fledgling Chruch) when to flee Jerusalem. The Jews who died there were amongst those whom wouldn't listen to Him. Jesus quoted Daniel at His trial before the Sanhedrin that they would see the day when He comes to judge them. And they did. Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. God came to judge the Jews in 70AD in the form of the Roman army...(and the Christians already warned by Jesus had fled to the mountains and were saved.) How can you say it WAS NOT God's wrath the bible speaks about?

Same thing in Isaias 19:1-2 and 20: 1-6. "The Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence." In the fullfillment of this passage, God comes to judge the false idols---how--in the form of the Assyrian army. God promises He is coming to Egypt and the Egyptians witness a conquering army.

This is the same language as Daniel, "with the clouds of Heaven there came one like a son of man." This can't be a coincidence. God came to as Judge and here at His trial, quoting Daniel, He's telling the Sanhdedrin the Son of man is coming to judge. Just as God judged Egypt with the Assyrian army, He judged the Jews with the Roman army. It's all there, don't be stubborn on this one.   

St.John's Apocalypse focuses mainly on the battle between good and evil of God's New Covenant people (which include those Jews who converted) starting at the time of his writing going forward through all the ages until the consummation of the world.

Yes, this is true..but what's it going to tell us?

The scroll's opening reveals the mystery of the Messianic Kingdom.

The opening of the six seals is linked with the trumpets by having the seventh seal contain all seven trumpets.

So what does that mean? To me, it means that we are going to get more details of the same events but from another perspective.

Just as we examined the seals from the standpoint of St.Matt. 24, the same with the trumpets. In the trumpets, we are going to look at the same things we saw in the seals only from a different perspective.

The six seals view the coming judgment of Christ from Christ's perspective, the trumpets view these from the view's of those judged first through the eyes of the Sanhedrin and then to future mankind.

These smaller themes build up to Apocalype's main message which is in chapter 20.

You read Apocalypse as, except the first few chapters, all in the far distant future and I read it as looking to the future by examining the past and near future. Only the very last couple of chapters are meant to be looked at as future.


KFC POSTS:

So here tribulation would be persecution..as in what Nero and Domitian (antichrist types) persecuted the early Christians. IN the future, the Antichrist will persecute Christians.

You think believers will be raptured away and not have to persevere through this coming time of persecution, and I say we'll all be here but through God's grace and mercy protected in some way. I say this is happening right now as we speak...as the Millenium began with Christ and will continue until the consummation of the world.

Scripture has shown that God's wrath (judgments) can come to man by means of men against men as you say. When He unleashes all nature it will be future; indeed it will be at the very end of the world. Throughout the Millenium, there will be natural disasters, the hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. The people of Indonesia have suffered through its 3rd earthquake in the last two days.

LULA POSTS:

I'm telling you true that I get all dis-combobulated when I see words, like pre-trib, mid-trib, post, etc!

So, let's discuss what you keep saying....cause I know you believe somewhere in here you'll be raptured away...

So help me out.

You say, "they WON"T escape tribulation but ONLY God's wrath. Two diff things."

Assuming that Tribulation is persecution and God's wrath is God's judgment.

I think we may agree on believers not escaping tribulation, but don't understand when, how, where, why believers will escape God's wrath.

Lula Posts:

KFC,

Persevere to the end means: to the end of either your life or persevere to the end of the world and Second Coming which ever comes first. Those who persevere to the end of what: the the end of the battle of good vs. evil (sin).

If with our Lord's grace and protection, we are successful in persevering in the faith, that is, if we stand the test, run the race to the finish, through trials, suffering, persectuion, tribulation, etc. whatever evil or trial comes our way, then our Lord tells our fidelity will be rewarded in Heaven.



KFC, you say, If you look here you see all these people standing before the throne.....BEFORE God's wrath is poured out on the earth (read 3:10 again). Who are they?

To say this, you must be taking St.John verse by verse, chapter by chapter chronologically. Yet, we know that sometimes events overlap, duplicate and are even isolated from one another chronologically.

You cite 3:10 "Becasue you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."


This is Christ's assurance that for those who stay faithful and persevere in faith to the end, He will protect them from the hour of trial. This doesn't mean He 'raptured' them out of the world to avoid His judgments upon the world.

In 7:9-17, the second part of the interlude, St. John is shown the great multitude “clothed in white robes” at the throne of God. Here St.John is shown all the people who are in Heaven.
After they had battled victoriously, with God’s help and protection (seal), through all the ordeals and tribulations of the earth, arrived at their final goal...eternal life in Heaven. Its the vision given to St.John where God is showing him HIs promise delivered in its fullest and final sense.

Those people in the first century, the second, the third, all suffering great times of persecution, and yes, forwarding through all times to now and in the future can be absolutely sure that God keeps His promise, by this vision of St.John's --who was shown and wrote down that those who persevere in faith to the end will be in Heaven around the throne forever praising the Lamb of God.

LULA POSTS:




You know me..I'm a serious, straight faced...but fun type of person..


and this is the fun people have when one thinks the number is literal and the other one thinks it's symbolic to mean a complete number that only GOd Himself knows what number that is.

To me, the "great multitude which no man can number" means the number of those who pesevered to the end in the good fight of faith and are now in Heaven. It is the very same as the 144,000 when taken symbolically to mean the whole, complete number.

To me, the great multitude comes from "every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues", is symbolic of the population of Heaven, the Church Triumphant.

Apoc. 6:9-11 in which the martyred saints are given white robes as they wait for their brethren on earth to die and join them in Heaven. This latest vision completes this one giving more details and descrition of this heavenly population. These are the same matryred saints only this time they are said to come out of the great tribulation. This is an added description to 'those who had been slain for the word of God." in Apoc. 6:9.

The 'great tribulation' is the battle on earth that the Chruch Militant is presently waging against the forces of evil. When the saints have died and fulfilled their part in the battle, they will be rewarded with heavenly bliss. On earth there is only 144,000 taking part in the battle, (again to me this is symbolic of a small and specific number of people) but of the Chruch Triumphant in Heaven there is a multitude from every nation, since this population comprises all the OT and NT saints of history that have died and whose souls have gone to Heaven.

Since the number of the saved is unknown it is characterized here as a number no one could number.

In other words, it's a symbolic way of saying that the number of heavenly saints is vastly greater than the small army of Christians on earth.

oh c'mon...you are really straining after gnats here!

Besides, you don't want to get me going on who takes what verse literally, do we? I'm thinking of St.John 6:25-59.