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Revelation 6:12-17-Wrath of God Unleashed

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Revelation 6:12-17-Wrath of God Unleashed

This Will Be the Real War of Terror

from JoeUser Forums
We've already covered the first five seals opened by the Lamb of God and now we're about to read of the opening of the sixth seal which is to be the most frightening yet. Opening up this seal is like the first act of an end time play revealing a very disturbing scene with more to come. First the text:

12I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Why is He telling us this? It's very clear when one reads scripture that God is a God of many chances. He's not one to surprise us without giving us every chance available. Here, He's warning us. He wants us to know that there will be a day of wrath. There will be a day of judgment. The world says "no." The prevailing thought of today is the world will not end anytime soon. Certainly, a loving God will not close down this earth as we know it. There will be no final curtain call. Right?

Well if scripture is correct, this earth will end as we know it. There will be a day of judgment. We need to be motivated to tell the world there is a way out. We need to tell others there is a Savior who will save us from the wrath to come.

We see from the Epistles, mostly written by Paul, a sense of urgency. The first Christians were anxious for the day to come. They wished and waited for justice to be had in their lifetime. The desire was to be reunited with God.

So here the opening of this seal starts with an earthquake. In the latest news we've read of an earthquake in Peru and Jamaica, but this is just a small taste, a warning of what is to come. How many went into eternity without Christ after hearing the message?

Our Pastor believes the "Day of the Lord" starts here. Some say earlier, some say later. The opening of this seal initiates wrath coming from heaven, not the earth.

We know that scripture is clear that while the believer is to have tribulation in his life, wrath is only for the unbelievers. The believers will not be here. The believers will be saved from God's wrath. We read in Romans 5:9:

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Now going back to Matthew 24 as we have been doing with all these seals we see a connection here with 24:29 which says:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken"

Jesus gave a complete picture in Matthew as did John in Revelation and the two fit perfectly together. Here's the seals' timeline.


Beginning............................Middle.......................................End.

l______________________l____________________ l
#1,2,3,4....................................#5 .............#6

Birth Pangs.....................Persecution Wrath

So first we see nature responds with a great earthquake. This will be worldwide, not like what we are seeing today. This quake will receive the attention of the world. Every place will shake. This quake will put the insurance industry out of business. This will be an extreme world makeover like never before, and it will not be a good thing.

We see:
Sun turns black
Moon like blood
Stars fall
Sky recedes
Mountains and Islands move

We see the Sun turns black. What happens when the earth quakes? Dust, debris, gases rise blocking out the Sun. Remember Mt. St. Helens? Remember the stories of complete blackness that surrounded the whole area? It will be similar but oh so much worse than a local volcano spillover.

Sackcloth is a symbol of mourning, dark and drab and not a pleasant article of clothing by any means. Somehow the gases of the earth will even change the color of the moon to blood red.

The stars falling is likened to a shaken fig tree and reminds us of meteor showers. The earth is shaken with such force it seems as tho there will be meteorites crashing to the earth, as figs falling from the tree, as this whole thing takes place.

John also sees the earth split apart and every mountain and island moving out of it's place. Oh the fear and dread John must have felt as he took pen to scroll to capture this down in writing. His horror will never be fully known this side of eternity.

Now this must not have totally surprised John nor should it us. The prophets wrote about this. They looked ahead and saw these future events. but it was John who put it all together from start to finish. Here's a few examples in the OT.:

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord." Joel 2:30-31

The great day of the Lord is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out.That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,A day of trumpet and alarm Against the fortified cities And against the high towers.“I will bring distress upon men, And they shall walk like blind men, Because they have sinned against the Lord;
Their blood shall be poured out like dust, And their flesh like refuse.”Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the Lord’s wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured. Zeph 1:14-18

The unrepentant sinful people will not be saved. They had no wish to be so. They made it quite clear. Their wealth will be useless. It cannot deliver.

God wants us to know this stuff. He wants it proclaimed from the rooftops. This world will not last forever. We are now living in the age of Grace, but this will not last forever.

Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it. For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter. Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses,
And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.: Isaiah 34:1-4

When we look at the list of who's who in V15 we have to ask ourself, "Who are greater than these?" We see:

Kings (Political
Great Men (Princes)
Rich (Economic
Commanders (Military)

And with the mighty, slave and free we've just about covered everyone that would be on the face of the earth during this time.

This will be a time of terror, fear, trembling. Notice they will try to hide themselves. Why? The guilty always hide before God. Remember Adam and Eve hiding before God after they sinned? It's interesting they will hide in the rocks. To a Christian Christ is THE ROCK. He is our Rock of Refuge. These people will know where this is coming from. There will be no "I didn't know."

There is a God. He's not happy. They will hide in caves as pure panic captures the earth. Isaiah says in 2:19-21:

They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily. In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver And his idols of gold,
Which they made, each for himself to worship, To the moles and bats,To go into the clefts of the rocks, And into the crags of the rugged rocks, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.

How about this from the lips of Christ himself? In Luke 23:28-31 he says:

28But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29“For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ 30“Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’ 31“For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?

While he was here on earth his message was fresh and green but now we are in the dry period. He's talking about now. The world says, "Nonsense, go read your book." And we do.

The word wrath is "orge" and means, "agitation of the soul, any violent emotion, anger, wrath, indignation, anger exhibited in punishment."

What we are seeing here is the lamb of God metamorphising into the Lion of Judah.

Sin has to be punished. A just God cannot leave sin unpaid. Who is able to stand? No one. Those who think they are going to stop God and are shaking their fist at Him all over the world haven't a clue who and what they are dealing with. Other scriptures that should give one pause are:

Psalm 2, 76:7, Malachi 3:2, Nahum 1:6 and Luke 21:25-26 we will end with:

25“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26“men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken








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Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Christians will be "taken out" before God's wrath comes again. That's where the rapture comes in. We'll get into that more in the next one I do which is 7:9-17.


Before God's wrath comes again? What does that mean?

The four last things are Death, Judgment, Hell or Heaven.

There is no God's wrath coming in between any of these. Unless my judgment is your wrath. Is that possible?
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
They will be "raptured" or taken into heaven while God unleashes his wrath on the earth. Here in this particular blog they "haven't" been taken up yet, but it's momentarily. We left here with God's wrath just about to be unleashed or the beginning of it. His wrath really is fully unleashed with the opening of the next seal. We'll see silence in heaven first...8:1. Here with the earthquake, stars, sun and moon it's like the last chance. It's his final warning. It's here. The time has come.


Where does this fit in with the four last things: Death, Christ's Second Coming i.e. General or Final Judgment, Heaven or Hell?

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Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top

They will be "raptured" or taken into heaven while God unleashes his wrath on the earth


This is the sentence I cannot agree with..and is troubling even if, as you say, there is a distinction between tribulation and wrath.

We've seen in the OT that tribulation and wrath always precedes God's judgments. The same is true of the Final or General Judgment at the End of the world.

So, therefore, tribulation and wrath are both signs that precede the Second Coming for the Last, General and Final Judgment.

There is nothing in Scripture that says believers won't be here aka 'raptured' or taken into Heaven while God unleashes His final wrath.

And 1 Thess. 4:16-17 doesn't apply here. The timing of 1Thess. (Parousia)concerns the resurrection of the dead first and those alive rise to meet Christ at the Second Coming, the Final Judgment which is when all the tribulation and wrath is over and done with.

The Parousia (Rapture) in 1Thess. 4:16-17 doesn't take place prior to tribulation or wrath. This event is always identified with the Second Coming of Christ at the Final Judgment.
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
Unless my judgment is your wrath. Is that possible?


yes, this whole wrath period is really the judgment of God coming down on the earth. Remember it's similar to Noah's day. We saw the wrath of God there (judgment) on the whole earth.

So, therefore, tribulation and wrath are both signs that precede the Second Coming for the Last, General and Final Judgment.


tribulation comes from the world. Wrath comes from God. We will have trials and tribulations so said Christ. We will not escape this. He had tribulations while on earth so should we expect any less? No. But we will escape God's wrath. Wrath is only for the unbelievers. Remember God took out Noah and Lot before he unleashed his wrath on their world. First on the whole world and later on Sodom. He will do the same for us in the future. Most likly after the Anti Christ starts to make things very uncomfortable for the Christians. We are already seeing a forerunner to this now.

There is nothing in Scripture that says believers won't be here aka 'raptured' or taken into Heaven while God unleashes His final wrath.


Yes there is. We will get to this soon.

the Final Judgment which is when all the tribulation and wrath is over and done with.


the final judgment at the end is only unbelievers. This great white throne judgment is NOT believers. They have a separate judgment. They are not put together.

The Parousia (Rapture) in 1Thess. 4:16-17 doesn't take place prior to tribulation or wrath


I say it comes after tribulation but before God's wrath. Some believe it comes before both. That would be pre-trib. What I'm writing here is more mid-trib or another word for this would be pre-wrath.

We'll just continue on and see if it makes more sense as we go. Before you go to the next section always read the section before it so one goes right into the other for better clarity.

Before God's wrath comes again? What does that mean?

The four last things are Death, Judgment, Hell or Heaven.


Generally speaking yes, for all of us so far. But not all are going to die in the end times. Remember Paul when he said that some will be caught up ALIVE? He also says that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. He's speaking of those of us alive here on earth when God begins to unleash his wrath. We who are alive will be "caught up" (raptured) before he judges the earth.



Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
Forgive me KFC---you know what I'm like: How can an old book, quaint though it is, foretell any events? If any wrath is going to come down upon this World (and there's plenty already),it will be the wrath of greedy, bloodthirsty,animal man. If God has a role then let's say He created man. I have every respect for your study of the Good Book but I fear it is skewed by your own interpretation of a library of different tomes disconnected from one another and, indeed, out of date. I believe that a studious examination of the Bible, welcome as it is, should be confined to finding answers about how people lived and thought in the ages past. To read prophesy and wrath and condemnation into the scriptures is tantamount to believing what you want to believe.

There are no prophecies in the Bible just as we have no prophecies today--apart from the "kooks" who think they can see into the future. I would love to debate more but I doubt you would like to take a Realist head on.This realist, unfortunately is not prepared to discuss out of date texts!

With much respect.
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
If Lula's right, the Bible IS out of date. If all this stuff happened in 70 AD, the Millenial Kingdom has been over for almost 1000 years. Don't know why we're here.

How does a book foretelling a future that has not come go out of date? It's either accurate and true, or inaccurate and false. Never out of date though. The only thing that would make it out of date is if something happened after it was written that would make it wrong. Well, everything that it says happened, happened. Everything that it says will happen, it did not put a time limit on. So it may still happen. Nothing has happened to preclude it from happening, either. So it's not out of date.

Anyone who does not want to take the Bible into consideration is welcome not to.

What makes someone a realist, anyway?
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
How can an old book, quaint though it is, foretell any events?


Actually Adnauseam this book is old, but not dead. It's alive. There are many many prophetic things that have happened. I can show you going back many prophecies that have already come to pass. I can show you how the great world powers came to be after a dream that a Babylonian King had and was interpreted by Daniel. I can show you how Tyre was destroyed by Alexander the Great prophesied hundereds of years before exactly as predicted.

I can show you how Israel was to become a Nation which they did in 1948. Anyone writing in the 1800's laughed at that idea. JC Ryle wrote an article in the 1800's about Israel coming into being as a nation because he was reading scripture and could see it. Many said it would never happen. The Jews were disbursed for about 2,000 years with no country. This was the greatest prophecy that came true in our lifetime. Read Ezek 37 for that one and get back to me.

I can give you page after page. The OT was full of prophecies concerning the upcoming Messiah. The Jews knew and were expecting a Messiah to come but when Jesus came they didn't accept him because he didn't fit their agenda. He wasn't the type they expected.

I would love to debate more but I doubt you would like to take a Realist head on.This realist, unfortunately is not prepared to discuss out of date texts!


you keep hanging onto that description (realist) and I've told you before I am a realist as well. So what? A realist can't believe the bible is the true word of God?

I have no problem taking a realist head on Adnauseam. I say this with a smile.....bring it on!! But it's in no way an out of date text. The words in this bible are still fresh and revelent for us today.



Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
LULA POSTS:


The four last things are Death, Judgment, Hell or Heaven.


KFC POSTS: Generally speaking yes, for all of us so far. But not all are going to die in the end times. Remember Paul when he said that some will be caught up ALIVE?


Yes, I know this. 1Thess. says, "and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together.."


LULA POSTS:

the Final Judgment which is when all the tribulation and wrath is over and done with.


KFC POSTS:

the final judgment at the end is only unbelievers. This great white throne judgment is NOT believers. They have a separate judgment. They are not put together.


Whoa! This what you say is definitly a Rapturist belief. We are going to have a battle over this one.

Everyone will face the Final Judgment. Jesus' parable about the Master rewarding His servants is a good one to illustrate this. After the final, cosmic upheaval of the world, Christ comes again for the Final Judgement of everyone which, I'm quite certain, is called the Great White Throne Judgment. At our death, we go through the Particular Judgment and then we go through the Final, Last Judgment.

I say it comes after tribulation but before God's wrath. Some believe it comes before both. That would be pre-trib. What I'm writing here is more mid-trib or another word for this would be pre-wrath.


This is where you lose me, big-time. I can't keep up with all these Rapturist terms. I never know whose doing what when.   

He also says that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. He's speaking of those of us alive here on earth when God begins to unleash his wrath. We who are alive will be "caught up" (raptured) before he judges the earth.


No, I can't agree here either. In the twinkling of an eye is the time when we receive our glorified bodies meaning it's going to happen very quickly. He's speaking of all of those who have died, are resurrected and those who are alive will be "caught up" together and go up to meet Him at His Second Coming.

Then those with Him will go down and He will Judge them (unleash His wrath, as you say) and the saved will go on His RIght side and the wicked will be placed on His left side. After the Final and universal JUdgment, those on His right go to Heaven where they glorified in body and soul, will reign forever with Christ, and those on His right are condemned to Hell.



Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
JYTHIER POSTS:
If Lula's right, the Bible IS out of date. If all this stuff happened in 70 AD, the Millenial Kingdom has been over for almost 1000 years. Don't know why we're here.


No, the Bible is far, far from out of date. Remember, it's salvation history according to God Himself through His chosen sacred writers.


St.John's Revelation is prophecy. KFC views it as still needing to be fulfilled. Yet, the only part of the prophecy that still must be fulfilled in Christ's Second Advent for the Final Judgment of the living and the dead at the End of the World.

It really doesn't matter whether St.John wrote it during Nero's percectuion in 68 or under Domitian's persecution in 90AD. Study Sacred Scripture and you will see that all OT prophecy was God's way of warning His people about troubling times ahead and of a coming judgment.

That's exactly what's happening here with St.John who writes very similiarly to the apocalyptic style of Daniel, the 6th century Jewish prophet who wrote to encourage God's people when they were being severly persecuted. They had been defeated and dispersed by the Babylonians.

Daniels' visions take in time periods amounting to 70 weeks. KFC believes Daniel's 70th week, which is the coming of God's kingdom is still in the future.

Daniel's visions overall message teaches the timing and meaning of Christ's First Advent (not future Second Event) and God's spiritual kingdom appeared during the ancient Roman Empire. The 70th week vision was fulfilled in 67-70AD by which time the blessings bestowed upon His Church were evident to the world. (By this I mean the Old Covenant sacrificial Judaism was abolished and the people of the New and Everlasting Covenant in Christ's Blood were free to grow). Christ's Birth, Death, and Resurrection and founding of His spritual kingdom, the Church, are the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies.

From Daniel's perspective, other than the Final Judgment of mankind, there is nothing in these visions still awaiting fulfillment except in the sense that all these events still point to a future death and resurrection of the world itself at the final eschaton.

Where Daniel's 70th week ends, St.John's begins...following Daniel's theme. The scroll's opening reveals the mystery of the Messianic kingdom. The first 7 chapters in Revelation reveal the judgment from the perspective of Christ. They describe the intense persecution that the God's New Covenant kingdom is going through in the 7 years Great Tribulation leading up to God's judgment (wrath) of Jerusalem by the Roman Army in 70AD.

The trumpets view these same events but from the Sanhedrin's eyes.
This follows Daniel's vision of the statue closely and what St.John does here is give more details about what we've just been told in the seals. That's why it's called recapitulation.

The last Chapters will get into the final eschaton. They only ones of St.John's prophecy that are not fulfilled.

You say, if all this stuff happened.....

Well, yes, it did in the events leading up to 70AD and then beyond. Can we examine what happened then and apply that as hope and encouragement for the future? I say yes, absolutely, yes.

On the other side is KFC's view, and I'm not going to change hers any more than she will change mine, so all this should be very interesting reading.








Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
Whoa! This what you say is definitly a Rapturist belief. We are going to have a battle over this one.

Everyone will face the Final Judgment.


Really? Then what do you do with this (jumping ahead a bit here)...Revelation 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that has part in the FIRST resurrection on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priestss of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years."

What is this FIRST resurrection? Then continuing on AFTER the thousand years we see:

"And I saw a great white throne and him that sat on it from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them (they couldn't hide). And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God and the books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life."

It goes onto say they will be judged according to THEIR WORKS. What's going to happen is they will be found wanting. Their WORKS will not get them into heaven. ......and whoever was NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (v15).
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top

Everyone will face the Final Judgment.


Really? Then what do you do with this (jumping ahead a bit here)...Revelation 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that has part in the FIRST resurrection on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priestss of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years."

What is this FIRST resurrection?


Upon their death, the Christian saints soul is taken straight to Heaven. The 'first resurrection' is not a physical resurrection, but the taking of the soul to Heaven by God. They are the Chruch Triumphant.

Those who experience the first resurrection will never experience "the second death", the lake of fire 20:15. Remember the letter to Smyrna, "He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death." 2:11. The Christians in Smyrna were fighting the temptation of those in "the synagogue of SaTAN." The Jewish leaders were persecuting Christians tyring to get them to forsake their Faith in Christ and return to the Old Covenant sacrifices. St.John writes assures the Chruch in Smyrna that those who die in the Faith will not be hurt by the second death; that is they won't be eternally separated from God after the Final Judgment.

The first resurrection has been occurring throughout the Chruch age which is now, the Millenium. As Christian saints have died, their souls enter Heaven. The rest of the dead do not come to life until the end of the thousand years. ( a symbolic number meaning a long time).

The second resurrection is when ALL, including these saint's souls, will be raised up and their bodies joined to their souls and all will be judged at the Final Judgment.


Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
Upon their death, the Christian saints soul is taken straight to Heaven. The 'first resurrection' is not a physical resurrection, but the taking of the soul to Heaven by God. They are the Chruch Triumphant.


No Lula. This doesn't make sense. You've already quoted 1 Thess 4;16-17 so I know you know it. It says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then we which are alive will be caught up to meet him"

This is the first resurrection. The dead who will rise first are all those who preceded us. We will all receive glorified bodies together at this time. The dead will be reunited with their DNA somehow and recieve their new bodies.

I found the whole DNA discovery fascinating when they started talking about the whole cloning issue because I think it's related to this end time belief. They say you can even take the dust and ashes from an old cemetary burial spot and revive the DNA even after hundreds of years later. My guess is that's what's going to happen at the first resurrection. But notice ONLY believers are included in this. NOT unbelievers.

The first resurrection has been occurring throughout the Chruch age which is now, the Millenium. As Christian saints have died, their souls enter Heaven. The rest of the dead do not come to life until the end of the thousand years. ( a symbolic number meaning a long time).


Their souls have entered heaven BUT they have NOT received their glorified bodies yet, so no resurrection has taken place yet. The souls being released from the bodies is NOT a resurrection. Paul says in Corinthians that our souls go back to God. I don't think the 1,000 years is symbolic either. It can make sense to be taken literally so we do.

Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
The 'first resurrection' is the taking of the soul to Heaven by God.


1 Thess 4;16-17 so I know you know it. It says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then we which are alive will be caught up to meet him"


For starters, not one of my 5 different Bibles links 1Thess. 4:16-17 with Apoc. 20:5-6 and rightly so. 1Thess. 4:16-17 is connected with Christ's Second Coming and the second resurrection which is the one that takes place at the end of time

1Thess. 4:16-17 is the Parousia or rapture of those who have died in Christ and those still alive at the time of the Second Coming of Christ just before the Final Judgment. 1Thess. 4:16-17 has nothing to do with "the first resurrection" of Apoc. 20:5-6.

"the first resurrection" has been occurring throughout the Church age which is now, the Millenium. 20:4 Upon death, the righteous Christian soul goes to Heaven while their physical bodies go to the grave. These souls are said to "live" in Heaven, and this coincides with the Gospel teaching of "life" as the spiritual sense of Baptism which regenerates us and gives us "new life". The souls of Apoc. 20:4 "live" becasue they experienced the first resurrection of 20:5b while they were alive on earth. The first resurrection refers to the resurrection of the human soul out of its spiritual death inherited from Adam which resurrection occurs at Baptism.

Being "born" into new life is synomous with the first resurrection. This truth is found in Eph. 2:1, 5-6; 5:14; Rom. 11:15; Jm. 5:15; Col. 3:1; 2: 12-13.
Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
Their souls have entered heaven BUT they have NOT received their glorified bodies yet, so no resurrection has taken place yet. The souls being released from the bodies is NOT a resurrection. Paul says in Corinthians that our souls go back to God.


KFC POSTS: The souls being released from the bodies is NOT a resurrection. Correct, it is not. When the soul is released from our physical body is our actual Death.

Upon our death, our soul is immediately judged by Christ, our Particular Judgement. If we are found righteous, our soul goes to Heaven and this is known as the "first resurrection". Apoc. 20:4-6 speaks of the souls in Heaven who have died fighting the good fight of faith and some have even been beheaded for it. They are reigning with Christ in Heaven.

After Christ's Second Coming, all the dead will rise and be joined with their physical bodies.

I don't think the 1,000 years is symbolic either. It can make sense to be taken literally so we do.


Well, this is Chapter 20 and we can wait and haggle over the literal vs. symbolic interpretation of the 1,000 years then.   
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top
Upon our death, our soul is immediately judged by Christ, our Particular Judgement. If we are found righteous, our soul goes to Heaven


I agree with this. First there is death then judgment. Not the great white throne judgement tho. That's at the very end and only for unbelievers.

this is known as the "first resurrection


I don't with this. How can you say this in light of 1 Thess 4:16-17? The resurrection DOES NOT happen until Christ returns. Until then we are spirits awaiting the resurrection.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMP of God AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together WITH THEM (those that died before us) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Where in the heck do you see the first resurrection BEFORE this in scripture? Can you show me?

Let's break this down. We see clearly here:

1. A return of Christ IN THE AIR
2. A RESURRECTION of the dead in Christ
3. A rapture (caught up) of living believers
4. A reunion with those who have died before us

Now compare what I just said to 1 Cor 15:51-52: Paul says:

"Behold I show you a mystery We shall not ALL sleep (spirits gone on) but we shall ALL be changed. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible and we shall be changed."


Again, I'll say Lula the dead IN Christ and we who are alive are going to be the first resurrection. All together at once. Where is the mention here of unbelievers? They are part of the second resurrection like I showed you at the end of Revelation.
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
Lula posts:
Upon our death, our soul is immediately judged by Christ, our Particular Judgement. If we are found righteous, our soul goes to Heaven


KFC POSTS: I agree with this. First there is death then judgment. Not the great white throne judgement tho. That's at the very end and only for unbelievers.


Believers and unbelievers go through the Great White Throne Judgment (what I call the General, Final or Last Judgment). Don't imagine for a minute that it does not concern believers, for it does. All mankind will be summoned to Christ on His Judgment-Seat and everybody will witness it with their bodily eyes.

When Christ in His chariot of fire has reached Mount Olivet, He will pause in the air at such a height that He can be clearly seen by everyone, until the angels have prepared the throne of Judgment and the Books are opened. Daniel 7:9-10 describes this as does St.Matt. 25:31 and St.John 20:11 tells us that besides all men, even heaven and earth won't be able to bear to meet the eye of the Judge's stern countenance.

Christ won't sit in Judgment alone. The 12 Apostles will be with Him judging the 12 tribes of Israel. St.Matt. 19:28.

The Church Fathers write that even the angels will be filled with apprehension and fear. St.John writes here that blessed saints are struck with awe and trembling. Remember St.John was so awestruck that he fell at His feet as dead and our Lord had come then to console him not judge St.John! Even the saints are going to be terrified when they are called upon to give Him an account of their whole life...St.Paul says this is so.

When the Judge is seated upon the Throne of His Majesty, ALL who have assembled in the valley of Josaphat, angels and devils, the redeemed and the lost, will all have to adore Christ, as St. Paul says, "We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: As I live says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Rom. 14:10-11.

Thousands of millions of angels, together with the blessed, in visible form will prostrate themselves and the evil spirits with their inhappy victims, and all the damned will be forced against their will, to adore Christ and acknowledge Him as their God and Judge. The principle reason why Christ's appearance on the day of Final Judgment will be so terrible is becasue He has been most grieviously outraged by the mortal sins of men. theologians assert that every mortal sin is in itself an infinitely evil.

No one knows how the outpouring of the wrath of God will be upon sinners. Psalms 89:11. Through His prophet Ezekiel the Judge Himself says, "Now, thou son of man, is an end come upon thee, and I will send My wrath upon thee, and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and I will set all thy abominations against thee, and My eye shall not spare thee, and I will show thee no pity." 7:3-4.

When all of those whom Christ has chosen to share with Him His office of Judge take their seats, His Apostles being the first ones, the Final Judgment will begin.

From what St.Paul says no person, not even the saints will be exempted from this ordeal. "We shall all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ." Rom. 14:10.

This standing before the Judgment-seat will fill everyone with fear even the just to a certain degree. Even thought the just may not be conscious of any sin, they won't be without apprehension. St.Paul says this speaking of himself, "I am not conscious to myself of anything, yet I am not hereby justified, but He that judges me is the Lord." 1Cor. 4:4. Isn't St.Paul saying, my conscious doesn't reproach me, but this does not prove to me to be one of the just. I must wait and see what sentence the Eternal Judge will pass on me?

Everyone shall be rewarded according to his works. Those who have done good will go with Christ to their eternal reward and those who have done evil shall go into the abyss of eternal torment and anguish.
Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top
From what St.Paul says no person, not even the saints will be exempted from this ordeal. "We shall all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ." Rom. 14:10.


you are talking something totally diff here. This is the BEMA seat of Christ. Here what you just quoted is for believers only. This is talking about believers judging other believers. Something totally diff than what we are talking about here in Revelation.

Believers are NOT judges of other believers. We will be judged by God. The whole chapter 14 of Romans is on this subject matter. Totally diff than the last judgment so you're talking apples/oranges here Lula.

Believers have already passed from death to life when they accepted Christ on this earth. So in effect they have escaped the judgment to come. What they haven't escaped tho is the bema seat of Christ where their works will be judged. 1 Cor 3:10-15 is the go to chapter on this. Also 2 Cor 5:10 says:

"For WE must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done whether it be good or bad."

But this is talking about rewards not eternal life. This also has to do with the believers, not the unbelievers. The bema (judgment seat) was well known to the Corinthians (Acts 18:12). Believers will be judged in a review of their works for the purpose of rewards only. Unbelievers will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment which is different and will be judged eternally by their works and will be found wanting. Their works cannot get them into heaven. Only the work of Christ gets us into heaven. It's not what WE do, but all what HE HAS DONE.

Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
Everyone shall be rewarded according to his works. Those who have done good will go with Christ to their eternal reward and those who have done evil shall go into the abyss of eternal torment and anguish.


Our going to heaven has nothing do do with us doing good or bad as you have stated. There will be some "good" people who will not go to heaven. People we esteem to be "good" that is. It's not about goodness Lula, it's about "belief."

Those who believe in God will go to heaven. Those who don't won't.

What you are speaking of Lula is legalism. Here's a devo I got today that helps put it into perspective.

The key to living a victorious Christian life is to discover who you are in Christ. Many Christians have never discovered this. They remind me of the man who had an identity problem and an energy crisis at the same time. He didn’t know who he was and he was too tired to find out. God doesn’t work from the outside in. He works from the inside out. God doesn’t modify our behavior in order to change us. He changes us in order to modify our behavior. You’re never going to purify the water by painting the pump. That’s legalism and that’s a dead end to discovering who you are in Christ.

"There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ JEsus. Romans 8:1.





Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
Lula posts:

Upon our death, our soul is immediately judged by Christ, our Particular Judgement. If we are found righteous, our soul goes to Heaven and this is known as the "first resurrection". Apoc. 20:4-6 speaks of the souls in Heaven who have died fighting the good fight of faith and some have even been beheaded for it. They are reigning with Christ in Heaven.


KKC POSTS:
I don't [agree] with this. How can you say this in light of 1 Thess 4:16-17? The resurrection DOES NOT happen until Christ returns. Until then we are spirits awaiting the resurrection.


I say this because the timing of 1Thess. 4:16-17 event occurs just after the general resurrection of the living and the dead at the Second Coming of our Lord in Judgment. This is a completely different event from the "first resurrection" of Apoc. 20:4-6.

KFC,

Here you say, "The resurrection DOES NOT happen until Christ returns. Until then we are spirits awaiting the resurrection."

Yes, quite true. However, we must distinguish the resurrection that happens at Christ's return is the general resurrection of the living and the dead. This is quite different from the "first resurrection" of Apoc.20:4-6.

Then you say, "Until then we are spirits awaiting the resurrection." Yes, KFC and where are these spirit souls awaiting this general resurrection? They are in Heaven right? When souls go to Heaven (is the "first resurrection") and these spirit souls are His saints reigning with Christ awaiting the general resurrection of the living and the dead at the Second Coming of our Lord in Judgment.

There are two resurrections: the "first resurrection" (only our soul judged in Particular Judgment and in Heaven) and the general resurrection (our soul joined with body just before the Final Judment.)

Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC POSTS:
Believers have already passed from death to life when they accepted Christ on this earth.


This is sort of what I was describing as "the first resurrection" in terms of baptismal regeneration. From reply # 38

These souls are said to "live" in Heaven, and this coincides with the Gospel teaching of "life" in the spiritual sense of Baptism which regenerates us and gives us "new life". The souls of Apoc. 20:4 "live" because they experienced the first resurrection of 20:5b while they were alive on earth. The first resurrection refers to the resurrection of the human soul out of its spiritual death inherited from Adam. In this sense, the "first resurrection" occurs at Baptism.

Being "born" into new life is synomous with "the first resurrection". This truth is found in Eph. 2:1, 5-6; 5:14; Rom. 11:15; Jm. 5:15; Col. 3:1; 2: 12-13.




Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
Those who believe in God will go to heaven. Those who don't won't.


Well, it's not quite this cut and dry.

What of those who believe in God but refuse to do the will of GOd? What of those who believe in God, but mock Him? What of those who believe in God, but not in Christ? What of those who believe in God, but do not love Him? What of those who believe, and say they love Him but do not keep His commandments? What of those who believe in GOd, but never acknowledge or repent of their sins? What about those who believe in God, but die with mortal sins on their soul?


We must know, love and serve God in this life to be with Him in the next.

ST.John 14:15, "If you love me you will keep my commandments."

Genuine love must express itself in deeds (works). St.John Chrysostom wrote, This indeed is love, obeying and believing in the loved One."

What Jesus is teaching is that He wants us to understand that love of God, if it is to be authentic must be reflected in a life of generous and faithful self-giving obedient to the will of God.

St.John says, "He who accepts God's commands and obeys them he it is who loves Him."

St.John exhorts us not to "love in word or speech, but in deed and in truth." 1St.Jn. 3:18 and he teaches us that "this is the love of God if we keep His commandments." 5:3.

Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top
LULA POSTS:
Everyone shall be rewarded according to his works. Those who have done good will go with Christ to their eternal reward and those who have done evil shall go into the abyss of eternal torment and anguish.


KFC POSTS: Our going to heaven has nothing do do with us doing good or bad as you have stated.

It's not about goodness Lula, it's about "belief."

Those who believe in God will go to heaven. Those who don't won't.


When I said that "Everyone shall be rewarded according to his works. Those who have done good will go with Christ to their eternal reward and those who have done evil shall go into the abyss of eternal torment and anguish" I based that on St. Matt.31-46.

Here it is:

In St. Matt. 25:41 Christ will judge each one of our thoughts, words and actions and separate us according to our deeds. He will tell the wicked to depart from Him into everlasting fire and in 25:24, He will say to the just (good) come to everlasting life.

In understanding that we will be judged by our works, let's go over what St.Matt. 25:31-46 means in regard to the description of the Last Judgment which every one of us will be a part of.

31 When the Son of man shall come in His majesty, and all the angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the seat of His majesty:
32 And all nations shall be gathered together before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left.
34 Then shall the King say to them that shall be on His right hand: Come ye, blessed of My Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
35 For I was hungry and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me to drink, I was a stranger and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick and you visited me: I was in prison and you came to me.
37 then shall the just answer Him saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty and gave thee drink?
38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked and covered thee?
39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?
40 And the King answering, shall say to them: Amen, I say to you, as long as ye did this to the least of my brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then He shall say to them also that shall be on His left hand: Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave Me not to drink:
43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered Me not; sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also shall answer Him, saying: Lord, when did we see Thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison and did not minister to Thee?
45 Then He shall answer them saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to the least, neither did you do it to Me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just into life everlasting."

V. 35-46, All the various things listed in this passage become works of charity when the person doing them sees Christ in these least of his brethren. Here we can see the seriousness of sins of omission. We must learn to recognize Christ when He comes out to meet us in our brothers, all the people around us. No human life is ever isolated...it is bound up with other lives. We will be judged on the degree and quality of our love for God for His own sake and for our neighbor. Our Lord will ask us to give an account not only for the evil we have done but also for the good we have omitted.

Yes, for many of us, we can't be sure if we are loving God, although we may have good reasons for believing we are...but we can know quite well if we are loving our neighbor. It goes hand in hand..the further advanced we are at loving our neighbor, then , the greater the love we will have for God.

V. 46, Christ will come at the end of the world to judge the living and the dead; and He will reward ALL, both the lost and the elect, according to their works. At the general resurrection, all these will rise with their own bodies (which they now have) and be joined with their soul so that they may recieve according to their works, whether good or bad. The wicked, will be awarded a perpetual punishment with the devil; the good, eternal glory with Christ.


Reply #48 from JoeUser Forums Top
What of those who believe in God but refuse to do the will of GOd?


It's not about just believing him with our minds Lula. It's a belief that comes from the heart. Even the demons believed in God. Satan believes in God. But none of these will inherit eternal life. It's not about a head knowledge but is all about a heart knowledge. That's the diff.

It's like I may believe in a person because I know them but somebody else who is closer to this same person "believes" in him as in totally in whatever he does.

Our works do NOT get us into heaven. We enter heaven because of our belief in the Son of God and what he has done for us. His finished work of the cross is HIS work and it's our belief in him and what he's done. Our works are worthy of rewards. There is a diff between inheriting eternal life and inheriting reewards.

It is God who judges the heart. He does not judge the external but the internal. That's why Peter was fully reinstated after his denial. While his external needed work, his heart was soft for God. If we were to look at the works (as you're saying) of Peter up until that point, he would have deserved hell.

Some may come to God with NO works but was saved near the end of his/her life. According to your logic, they would not deserve heaven. They have NO works to show for their entrance.





Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top
LULA POSTS:
From what St.Paul says no person, not even the saints will be exempted from this ordeal. "We shall all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ." Rom. 14:10.


KFC POSTS: you are talking something totally diff here. This is the BEMA seat of Christ. Here what you just quoted is for believers only. This is talking about believers judging other believers. Something totally diff than what we are talking about here in Revelation.

Believers are NOT judges of other believers. We will be judged by God. The whole chapter 14 of Romans is on this subject matter. Totally diff than the last judgment so you're talking apples/oranges here Lula.



KFC, you say that believers will be exempted from the Final Judgment. I disagree and cited what St.Paul was teaching in Rom. 14:7 which clearly states that ALL stand before the judgment seat of God. Yes, he's giving them a lesson on judging one another's opinions and finalizes the lesson by telling them we will all stand before the Judgment seat, that is the Great White Throne judgement seat at the Final Judgment.


Reply #50 from JoeUser Forums Top
LULA POSTS:
Upon their death, the Christian saints soul is taken straight to Heaven. The 'first resurrection' is not a physical resurrection, but the taking of the soul to Heaven by God. They are the Church Triumphant.


No Lula. This doesn't make sense. You've already quoted 1 Thess 4;16-17 so I know you know it. It says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then we which are alive will be caught up to meet him"

This is the first resurrection. The dead who will rise first are all those who preceded us. We will all receive glorified bodies together at this time. The dead will be reunited with their DNA somehow and recieve their new bodies.


1Thess. 4:16-17 must not be confused with "the first resurrection".

The timing of IThess. 4:16-17 is at the general resurrection of the living and the dead which is the first event at the end of the world.

I Thess. 4:15-17 goes along with St.Matt 25:31-46 which I just outlined above.

Both the events of 1 Thess. and St. Matt 25 take place at the Second Coming of the Lord for the Final Judgment. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 concerns the general resurrection of the dead which occurs before St.Matt.25: 31-46 (Christ separating the elect from the wicked ) and both occur on the Last Day.

1Thess. 4:15-17,

15 For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not proceed those who are asleep
16 For the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with a word of command, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are IN Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. Comfort one another with these words.

St.Paul and the Thessalonians assume that the Second Coming (Parousia) will occur within their lifetime, yet he insists that the time is unknown 5:1-2. One of the doubts of the Thessalonians is whether or not the dead will be under any disadvantage from those who are still alive when the Parousia of the Lord happens. St.Paul tells them that those who are still alive will have no advantage over those who have died v. 15-18. St.Paul tells the Thessalonians the order in which things will occur during the general resurrection of the dead which proceeds the Last Judgment.


At the end of the world, with the solemn blast of the trumpet, God will cause all men, the living and the dead to be summoned to the Last Judgment. All of us, everyone everywhere, will come before Christ at the Last Judgment. Scripture tells the order of the who, the how and where this will occur.

The first event that will happen upon the end of the world is the general resurrection of the dead v. 16. God will send out His angels who will blow a mighty trumpet blast that will re-echo throughout the whole world and cause the earth to tremble. Everyone must obey the sound. Every one, including those conceived in the womb, that has died, will rise again in the general resurrection of the dead. St.Paul says, “We shall indeed all rise again, but we shall not all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible; and we shall be changed.” 1Cor. 40: 51-52.

V. 16 tells us the first to be resurrected from the dead are those who have died IN Christ. This is what KFC calls the "first resurrection" but it is the general resurrection of the good or elect (their bodies) Concerning this Christ says, “He shall send His angels with a trumpet and a great voice; and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.” St.Matt. 24:31.

The general resurrection begins while the trumpet sound still re-echoes over the globe. Awakened by the sound, all the souls of the just will come down from the farthest parts of heaven accompanied by their guardian angels. The grave site where their bodily remains were will be opened and through the power of God the body made incorrupt will be reunited with the soul. This on the authority of God’s omnipotence and His word, no matter how long ago the body of a man may have turned into dust, whatever changes it went through, every portion and particle will unite to form again the same body which was during his lifetime. “And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them.” Apoc. 20:13.

That the just will take precedence over the wicked is told by Christ, “Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh where all that are in their graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have done good things shall come forth to the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” St.Jn. 5:28-29.

The resurrection of the wicked follows immediately upon that of the just...but it’s different for them. In every burying ground of the lost souls, the bodies will resemble devils more than men, thus soul and the body will mutually anathematize each other.

Next is the manner in which the good and the wicked will be conducted to the place of the Last Judgment. According to OT prophet Joel 3:2-12, the Last Judgment will be held in the valley of Josaphat, not far from Jerusalem.

If the good and evil are found together in the grave sites, that will come to pass which our Lord predicted, “So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall go out and shall separate the wicked from among the just.” St. Matt. 13:39. Since the good are laid to rest amongst the wicked, it follows that at the general resurrection , they will be found amongst the wicked as well. Accordingly, after the general resurrection, the holy angels will come and separate the just elect from the wicked reprobate.

This is where v. 17 applies, “Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord......"

“shall be taken together with them” that is those elect who have just risen from the dead in the general resurrection. St.Paul tells them that those who are alive, who are left, will be caught up, that is changed, made from being corruptible and mortal to being incorruptible and immortal, and together with those elect who have just risen from the dead, will be taken in the clouds to meet Christ in the air. So, all the good, all the elect, will be carried on the clouds in splendor and great glory by the holy angels to the place of Judgment.