Revelation 6:12-17-Wrath of God Unleashed

This Will Be the Real War of Terror

from JoeUser Forums
We've already covered the first five seals opened by the Lamb of God and now we're about to read of the opening of the sixth seal which is to be the most frightening yet. Opening up this seal is like the first act of an end time play revealing a very disturbing scene with more to come. First the text:

12I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Why is He telling us this? It's very clear when one reads scripture that God is a God of many chances. He's not one to surprise us without giving us every chance available. Here, He's warning us. He wants us to know that there will be a day of wrath. There will be a day of judgment. The world says "no." The prevailing thought of today is the world will not end anytime soon. Certainly, a loving God will not close down this earth as we know it. There will be no final curtain call. Right?

Well if scripture is correct, this earth will end as we know it. There will be a day of judgment. We need to be motivated to tell the world there is a way out. We need to tell others there is a Savior who will save us from the wrath to come.

We see from the Epistles, mostly written by Paul, a sense of urgency. The first Christians were anxious for the day to come. They wished and waited for justice to be had in their lifetime. The desire was to be reunited with God.

So here the opening of this seal starts with an earthquake. In the latest news we've read of an earthquake in Peru and Jamaica, but this is just a small taste, a warning of what is to come. How many went into eternity without Christ after hearing the message?

Our Pastor believes the "Day of the Lord" starts here. Some say earlier, some say later. The opening of this seal initiates wrath coming from heaven, not the earth.

We know that scripture is clear that while the believer is to have tribulation in his life, wrath is only for the unbelievers. The believers will not be here. The believers will be saved from God's wrath. We read in Romans 5:9:

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Now going back to Matthew 24 as we have been doing with all these seals we see a connection here with 24:29 which says:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken"

Jesus gave a complete picture in Matthew as did John in Revelation and the two fit perfectly together. Here's the seals' timeline.


Beginning............................Middle.......................................End.

l______________________l____________________ l
#1,2,3,4....................................#5 .............#6

Birth Pangs.....................Persecution Wrath

So first we see nature responds with a great earthquake. This will be worldwide, not like what we are seeing today. This quake will receive the attention of the world. Every place will shake. This quake will put the insurance industry out of business. This will be an extreme world makeover like never before, and it will not be a good thing.

We see:
Sun turns black
Moon like blood
Stars fall
Sky recedes
Mountains and Islands move

We see the Sun turns black. What happens when the earth quakes? Dust, debris, gases rise blocking out the Sun. Remember Mt. St. Helens? Remember the stories of complete blackness that surrounded the whole area? It will be similar but oh so much worse than a local volcano spillover.

Sackcloth is a symbol of mourning, dark and drab and not a pleasant article of clothing by any means. Somehow the gases of the earth will even change the color of the moon to blood red.

The stars falling is likened to a shaken fig tree and reminds us of meteor showers. The earth is shaken with such force it seems as tho there will be meteorites crashing to the earth, as figs falling from the tree, as this whole thing takes place.

John also sees the earth split apart and every mountain and island moving out of it's place. Oh the fear and dread John must have felt as he took pen to scroll to capture this down in writing. His horror will never be fully known this side of eternity.

Now this must not have totally surprised John nor should it us. The prophets wrote about this. They looked ahead and saw these future events. but it was John who put it all together from start to finish. Here's a few examples in the OT.:

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord." Joel 2:30-31

The great day of the Lord is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out.That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,A day of trumpet and alarm Against the fortified cities And against the high towers.“I will bring distress upon men, And they shall walk like blind men, Because they have sinned against the Lord;
Their blood shall be poured out like dust, And their flesh like refuse.”Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the Lord’s wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured. Zeph 1:14-18

The unrepentant sinful people will not be saved. They had no wish to be so. They made it quite clear. Their wealth will be useless. It cannot deliver.

God wants us to know this stuff. He wants it proclaimed from the rooftops. This world will not last forever. We are now living in the age of Grace, but this will not last forever.

Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it. For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter. Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses,
And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.: Isaiah 34:1-4

When we look at the list of who's who in V15 we have to ask ourself, "Who are greater than these?" We see:

Kings (Political
Great Men (Princes)
Rich (Economic
Commanders (Military)

And with the mighty, slave and free we've just about covered everyone that would be on the face of the earth during this time.

This will be a time of terror, fear, trembling. Notice they will try to hide themselves. Why? The guilty always hide before God. Remember Adam and Eve hiding before God after they sinned? It's interesting they will hide in the rocks. To a Christian Christ is THE ROCK. He is our Rock of Refuge. These people will know where this is coming from. There will be no "I didn't know."

There is a God. He's not happy. They will hide in caves as pure panic captures the earth. Isaiah says in 2:19-21:

They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily. In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver And his idols of gold,
Which they made, each for himself to worship, To the moles and bats,To go into the clefts of the rocks, And into the crags of the rugged rocks, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.

How about this from the lips of Christ himself? In Luke 23:28-31 he says:

28But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29“For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ 30“Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’ 31“For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?

While he was here on earth his message was fresh and green but now we are in the dry period. He's talking about now. The world says, "Nonsense, go read your book." And we do.

The word wrath is "orge" and means, "agitation of the soul, any violent emotion, anger, wrath, indignation, anger exhibited in punishment."

What we are seeing here is the lamb of God metamorphising into the Lion of Judah.

Sin has to be punished. A just God cannot leave sin unpaid. Who is able to stand? No one. Those who think they are going to stop God and are shaking their fist at Him all over the world haven't a clue who and what they are dealing with. Other scriptures that should give one pause are:

Psalm 2, 76:7, Malachi 3:2, Nahum 1:6 and Luke 21:25-26 we will end with:

25“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26“men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken








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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sin has to be punished. A just God cannot leave sin unpaid.


There will be a day of judgment. We need to be motivated to tell the world there is a way out. We need to tell others there is a Savior who will save us from the wrath to come.


God wants us to know this stuff. He wants it proclaimed from the rooftops. This world will not last forever. We are now living in the age of Grace, but this will not last forever.


Well said, KFC and so true.


The General or Final Judgment is coming, no one knows exactly when, but it's coming for sure. As you say, the prophets of the Old Testament call it the "Day of the Lord". Our Lord describes it in detail and His Apostles mention it most frequently as well.

The purpose of the General Judgment is to manifest before the whole human race the Mercy and Justice of God. Although only God knows the hour and the day of the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Judgment, we do know the chief events that will precede it are the universal preaching of the Gospel (St.Matt. 24:14), the conversion of many Jews (Rom.11:25), the great apostasy and the coming of Antichrist (2Thess. 2:3,)and many extraordinary disturbances of nature St.Matt. 24:29; 2St.Peter 3:10.

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hi Lula,

Yes, all you say I agree with. No argument here. heh! Where's Ock?

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Apoc. 6: 12-14 " And I saw when He had opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its green figs when it is shaken by a great wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a book folded up, and every mountain and the islands were moved out of their places."



The sixth seal is actually the final one since the 7th seal recapitulates these events in trumpets, thunders and woes.

Using apocalyptic language, this passage predicts the events that will happen just before Christ's Second Coming. It doesn't refer to the very End, but to the fact that the End is imminent.

The terrifying symbols used to indicate the events of the Final Judgment is imminent shows that St.John was familiar with the literary style and language of the Old Testament prophets. This was their way of warning the people (and of consoling them as well) that definitive victory would soon come.

We see:
Sun turns black
Moon like blood
Stars fall
Sky recedes
Mountains and Islands move


One generation of humanity will be the last. There is no doubt that what this generation will actually experience is proclaimed in apocalyptic images. How the reality will look, we do not know for sure. Some, like KFC, tend to describe these more in the literal sense while others say it's only to be taken symbolically.


Those who look at it symbollically would say the aim of the apocalyptic portrayal is to dramatically illustrate the interior condition and the reaction of those last people faced with God's Final Judgment. Either way, the cataclysms in history and nature of which the seal visions tell, mean that the "wrath of the Lamb" His Day of Judgment is proclaimed.


At the same time, I can just as easily see this describing the upheaval surrounding the Temple's fall where many Jews actually hid in caves around Jerusalem in fear of the Roman army, earthquakes and other heavenly disruptions, as well as the dislodgment of political and religious dynasties. All these events lead up to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. (Oh, man, I can hear KFC groaning now!).


Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Where's Ock?


I don't know maybe still trying to make some sense out of the white robes.   
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Some, like KFC, tend to describe these more in the literal sense while others say it's only to be taken symbolically.


Ok I'm a bit confused here Lula. Are you taking this literally or symbolically?

The reason I ask is because you mentioned AD 70 which I take to mean you mean it literal as well but backdating it to earlier times where I'm looking at future. Is this correct?


ya, I'm groaning. You were doing good until your last paragraph...lol.


Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
One generation of humanity will be the last. There is no doubt that what this generation will actually experience is proclaimed in apocalyptic images. How the reality will look, we do not know for sure. Some, like KFC, tend to describe these more in the literal sense while others say it's only to be taken symbolically.


Those who look at it symbolicly would say the aim of the apocalyptic portrayal is to dramatically illustrate the interior condition and the reaction of those last people faced with God's Final Judgment. Either way, the cataclysms in history and nature of which the seal visions tell, mean that the "wrath of the Lamb" His Day of Judgment is proclaimed.


At the same time, I can just as easily see this describing the upheaval surrounding the Temple's fall where many Jews actually hid in caves around Jerusalem in fear of the Roman army, earthquakes and other heavenly disruptions, as well as the dislodgment of political and religious dynasties. All these events lead up to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.


KFC POSTS:
Lula. Are you taking this literally or symbolically?




I can exegesis 6:12-14 in all three ways. In the literal sense, even elsewhere in Scripture we're told there will be some kind of extraordinary natural disturbances just before the Second Coming of Christ. Here in 6:12-14, these natural disturbances are described in apocalyptic terms to be sure. You did a great job using the historical event of Mount St.Helens to explain what they might be like which makes good sense to me.

Re: the symbolic sense. We know from the getgo that apocalyptic language does more than just use vivid imagery. It can use one image to symbolize more than one or different realities. One of those different realities is what I proposed above regarding the "cataclysmic" interior of the human condition.



KFC POSTS:
The reason I ask is because you mentioned AD 70 which I take to mean you mean it literal as well but backdating it to earlier times where I'm looking at future.



RE: applying that to the upheaval of political and religious dynasties in 70AD. We must ask ourselves how was 6:12-14 intended to be understood by readers of the days in which it was written. That's why I cited St.John's use of the OT terms. The prophets of OLd certainly used apocalypitc language and dramatic imagery of cataclysmic disruptions to describe changes within the human political sphere.

What happened in 70AD is true to history and fits the bill to a "T".

As far as "backdating", 1.) it wouldn't be back dating at all if St.John wrote this in 68AD. 2.) Nor do I have a problem with authorship at 90 AD. Either way, I think St.John was picking up where Daniel left off in 70AD. St.John's visions take us from 70AD to the End of Time and the consummaton of the world.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
APOC. 6: 15-16 " And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and commanders, and the rich, and the strong, and every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and they say to the mountains and rocks, “Fall upon us and hide us from the face of Him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! "


When we look at the list of who's who in V15 we have to ask ourself, "Who are greater than these?" We see:

Kings (Political
Great Men (Princes)
Rich (Economic
Commanders (Military)

And with the mighty, slave and free we've just about covered everyone that would be on the face of the earth during this time.


Yes, this passage actually does cover everyone. It's telling us that fear and panic will grip all mankind when it sees its world breaking up and convulsing into parts. Seven groups, a symbol of completeness, are listed, from the highest to the lowest social caste of society.

In the end, the dissolution of the order of nature shows frightened mankind what he himself had done by rejecting the rightful order entrusted to him which in essence has undermined his own existence.

The seal visions clear away the utopian idea that an external progress in man also signifies progress in humanity. That is all blown to bits becasue the breaking of the seals reveal the process of evil in history and the growth of chaos and anarchy which always corresponds to it.

At this point what confronts man now in his world is the frightening emptiness which means only destruction and end without any escape whatsoever....even though they try...

This will be a time of terror, fear, trembling. Notice they will try to hide themselves. Why? The guilty always hide before God. ...

These people will know where this is coming from. There will be no "I didn't know."
There is a God. He is not happy. They will hide in caves as pure panic captures the earth. Isaiah


The feeling of impotence in the face of nature, whose laws man has discovered and thereby regards them to a certain extent as under his control, drives men to despair. All pride has been crumbled under a hopeless fear. They try to escape, but there is no hiding place for their bad conscience and from the eyes of the Lamb appearing in Judgment. The day of His wrath will reveal that the Redeemer of the world is also the Judge.


While he was here on earth his message was fresh and green but now we are in the dry period. He's talking about now. The world says, "Nonsense, go read your book." And we do.

The word wrath is "orge" and means, "agitation of the soul, any violent emotion, anger, wrath, indignation, anger exhibited in punishment."




The immeasurable anxiety which grips all is portrayed in the flight and hiding and the consciousness of moral responsibility once more draws upon him, but only in the form of a fear of Judgment.





Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
APOC 6:17 “ For the great day of their wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand? ”


Both the NAB and Douay Rheims Bibles have "their" wrath; not "His wrath." Interesting isn't it...the difference between the pronouns 'their' and 'his'?


KFC POSTS:
Sin has to be punished. A just God cannot leave sin unpaid. Who is able to stand? No one.


You think no one shall be able to stand, KFC?

In v. 15, we read the reference to seven social groups embracing all mankind ranging from the highest to the lowest. It doesn't distinguish between believers and unbelievers. And there is nothing here that indicates the believers will not be there; to the contrary the seven groups indicates completeness--all mankind.
I think those believers who persevered and fought the good fight of Faith are those who shall be able to stand.

KFC POSTS:
We know that scripture is clear that while the believer is to have tribulation in his life, wrath is only for the unbelievers. The believers will not be here. The believers will be saved from God's wrath. We read in Romans 5:9:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."


I think that all mankind who are living at the time will go through this great upheaval of nature. It will be 'their' wrath and some shall stand it and some won't.
So, therefore I disagree that no one shall be able to stand and the believers will not be here.

This is the course of the eschatological process that all mankind is going to experience. "Who shall be able to stand?" Of those who dwell on earth at that time, the unbelievers will be filled with despair and that is set up against the preservation and hopeful expectancy of the faithful.

To the question: How will it stand with the elect in this time of collapse? The answer comes with God's special protection they will not perish on earth and will be guided through turbulent transience of this world to their final goal before the Throne of God in Heaven. The Book of Revelation is the story of the Church in the midst of the chaotic world-time and the same Church in the light and peace of eternity with God.

This thread of encouragement and consolation runs through the whole structure of the Revelation and here is enuciated in the midst of an atmosphere of destruction St.Luke 21:28. To the readers of Revelation in St.John's day who thought the End was near, this contrasting answer was very hopeful just as it is to us today.

This is the awe and wonder of Sacred Scripture. It's God's hopeful message to people of all times.

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
No Lula, I was never trying to make sense of the white robes. I don't try to get water out of rocks, either - well, that may not be completely true, I suppose, since I came here to ask questions.

Actually, I started my own bible interpretation thread and started from the beginning. With Genesis, King James version.

To be honest, I didn't do a very good job of it. I left out lots of things that should have been included in Chapters 1 and 2, and pretty much started at the end of Chapter 2 and went through Chapter 3. You might have missed it since I put it in humor and not religion.

I actually respect folks that are trying to make sense of things, certainly enough not to make cracks behind their backs, and I didn't feel religion would have been a respectful choice for where I placed the thread. And someday, when the purple moose passes across the son and mysteriously utters "Nymbu niva sanachicaKA!", you'll understand that. (Which *really* means that when the Ancient holy one dressed in the color of royalty comes down from heaven, briefly occluding the sun in his descent, then the time will have come for the Holy Words to be revealed to all.) How do I know this? Well, sheesh...it's right there in black and white for all to see, isn't it?

Y'all have fun now, ya hear?
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
I actually respect folks that are trying to make sense of things, certainly enough not to make cracks behind their backs,


What I said wasn't meant in a derogatory sense at all. I'm sorry, Ock, that you take it as such.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
In v. 15, we read the reference to seven social groups embracing all mankind ranging from the highest to the lowest. It doesn't distinguish between believers and unbelievers. And there is nothing here that indicates the believers will not be there; to the contrary the seven groups indicates completeness--all mankind.
I think those believers who persevered and fought the good fight of Faith are those who shall be able to stand.


Like I said, it's the unbelievers who hide from God not believers. God said back in Rev 3:10:

"because you have kept the word of my patience I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which shall come upn all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."

The question is how is he going to "keep" them? The language in v17 strongly suggests the fact that NOBODY will be able to stand unless God protects them. Also Paul said in 1 Thess 5:9

"For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is the time of God's wrath finally coming upon the earth. This is similar to Noah's day. Noah was kept from the wrath of God upon the earth as I believe the future believers also will be kept from it here.

God's wrath is ALWAYS directed at unbelievers. Never directed at believers anywhere.

If God saved Noah like he did back then, how do you suppose he's going to save us all should his wrath begin to break out today?

When the Tribulation comes, men will ACT as if they believe the end of the world is at hand, not simply talk as if it were. They will hide trying to escape.



Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes, this passage actually does cover everyone. It's telling us that fear and panic will grip all mankind when it sees its world breaking up and convulsing into parts. Seven groups, a symbol of completeness, are listed, from the highest to the lowest social caste of society.


The diff between what you believe and what I believe is that yes I believe it will happen to all mankind left on earth but I believe the rapture will occur first so the belivers will not be here. You have both believers and unbelievers going thru this time and I do not. If we are the bride of Christ, does it make sense that the bridgroom bashes up the bride before the wedding supper?

This group mentioned shows that no class or group of people are exempt. None will be so big in status they will escape this wrath from above. God is no respector of person. It's not what we know, but who we know that matters. Isn't that always the case?


The feeling of impotence in the face of nature, whose laws man has discovered and thereby regards them to a certain extent as under his control, drives men to despair. All pride has been crumbled under a hopeless fear. They try to escape, but there is no hiding place for their bad conscience and from the eyes of the Lamb appearing in Judgment. The day of His wrath will reveal that the Redeemer of the world is also the Judge.


hmmmmm I'm kinda confused here Lula. I agree here with what you wrote but you said believers are included (above) as "all" mankind is included in the hiding under the rocks(which I don't agree) so how does this apply to them? It seems here as tho you only are including "unbelievers" (which I agree with).





Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
What happened in 70AD is true to history and fits the bill to a "T".


Really? So you're saying that "every mountain and island" moved during the 70AD seige of Jerusalem? The sky receded then also? Stars fell from heaven? I don't see how this fits to a "T" at all.



Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
APOC 6:17 “ For the great day of their wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand? ”


The language in v17 strongly suggests the fact that NOBODY will be able to stand unless God protects them.


The question is how is he going to "keep" them?


If God saved Noah like he did back then, how do you suppose he's going to save us all should his wrath begin to break out today?


So here you say nobody will be able to stand unless God protects them...and then go on to ask how is He going to do that?

I can only answer that I don't know how God is going to protect His people at this time of great natural disturbance just before His Second Coming. It's a matter of Faith. All Christ has told us is to watch and pray and persevere in the Faith.

Christ does not intend for His Chruch to be kept out of harms way by a secret rapture. In St. John 17:15, He says, "I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil one." And in 16:33, Christ tells us "in the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." Scripture is brim full of passages that tell us the Chruch will endure tribulations, including the biggest tribulation of all, St.Matt. 24:21. The Chruch will come through all of them purified and holier by the ordeal. Rom. 12: 12, 2Cor. 4:4; 1Thess. 3:4; Rev. 1:9, 2:10, 7:14.


The diff between what you believe and what I believe is that yes I believe it will happen to all mankind left on earth but I believe the rapture will occur first so the belivers will not be here. You have both believers and unbelievers going thru this time and I do not.




It's not going to be because believers have been raptured away(for these natural disturbances that is being described here is just before Christ's Second Coming and for believers to be secretly raptured means that Christ came at least once before this and would thus make this one His 3rd coming....No so, KFC, that's unbiblical.) Furthermore, it's so secret that St.John never mentions it...and after that remember that nothing soiled will enter Heaven.

If we are the bride of Christ, does it make sense that the bridgroom bashes up the bride before the wedding supper?


The Church is the bride of Christ who right now is bashed and soiled in sin. The last days before the Second Coming are a time of purification...that way the bride will be pure.

The Rapture theory as it is commonly understood today is only a novelty. It became really popular toward the end of the 19th century which saw the rise of feverish end times sects like the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, and various Adventists groups.

If God saved Noah like he did back then, how do you suppose he's going to save us all should his wrath begin to break out today?


I see Noah and has family as the complete opposite of the Rapture theory. The one's who were "left behind" in Noah's day are the one's who are saved, and those who God would destroy with the earth by flood were taken to judgment, not to safety.

Perhaps, at this time of great natural turmoil the wicked ones are going to die and go to their judgment, the Particular Judgement.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
So you're saying that "every mountain and island" moved during the 70AD seige of Jerusalem? The sky receded then also? Stars fell from heaven? I don't see how this fits to a "T" at all.


We both agree there will be natural disturbances like earthquakes and volcanoes, etc. as signs before Christ's Second Coming.

Yes, I see the same things as signs that happened as warning to the Christians not during the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD, but prior to that.

One of the 8 signs that Christ predicted that ultimately lead to the destruction of Jerusalem was disastrous earthquakes. St.Matt. 24:7.

The most famous earthquake was the one in Pompeii in 63AD exactly 7 years before the destruction of Jerusalem. This earthquake along with others, would have been a warning to the Christians to get ready. Christians endured intense persecution under Nero. 2/3 of Rome burnt in July 64AD and Christians were made the scapegoat.

TImes were very difficult during the Great Tribulation of 64-67AD. But even the Roman Empire couldn't snuff out Christ's fledgling Church. Just like then, Christians who endure trials to the end, who fight the good fight of faith, are assured of salvation. Christ said, "He who endures to the end will be saved." St. Matt. 24:13. This is the same promise we encounter right here in the Apocalypse.

Why would Christ say this and all the while be planning to secretly rapture away believers? No way...it's bologna.

We haven't seen the first mention of anything that necessitates a secret rapture before a future 7 year Great Tribulation.

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
So you're saying that "every mountain and island" moved during the 70AD seige of Jerusalem?


Yes, read 11:13, the earthquake in the sixth seal exactly mirrors the earthquake in the sixth trumpet.

The Temple occupied about a tenth of the land in Jerusalem and it was August of 70AD when this tenth of the city fell. On the day the Temple was torched, 7,000 Jews also died. 7,000 is ten cubed multiplied by 7, a symbollically large number. When the outlaw Zealots slaughtered 8,400 Jews who had taken refuge in the royal palace. This killing of Jew by Jew is referred to as the sinat hinam that came just before the defeat of the Temple.

In 33AD, the earthquake on the day of our Lord's crucifixation, the day the Temple veil was rent from top to bottom. Within that generation, 40 years later, just as Christ prophecied, on this August day in 70AD, another earthquake marked the end of biblical Judaism.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
in 16:33, Christ tells us "in the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." Scripture is brim full of passages that tell us the Chruch will endure tribulations, including the biggest tribulation of all, St.Matt. 24:21. The Chruch will come through all of them purified and holier by the ordeal. Rom. 12: 12, 2Cor. 4:4; 1Thess. 3:4; Rev. 1:9, 2:10, 7:14.


I will get into the diff between tribulation and God's wrath in the next blog. There is a diff. You are right tho. The church will NOT escape tribulation. But they will escape God's wrath. That's what I'm saying. Noah was protected and "taken out" when God's wrath came down. The same will happen in the end. The Christians will be "taken out" before God's wrath comes again. That's where the rapture comes in. We'll get into that more in the next one I do which is 7:9-17.

that Christ came at least once before this and would thus make this one His 3rd coming....No so, KFC, that's unbiblical.) Furthermore, it's so secret that St.John never mentions it...and after that remember that nothing soiled will enter Heaven.


First off he never comes to the earth (1 Thess 4:16-17). We meet him in the air it says. When he comes back (2nd coming) his feet touch the mount of Olives as we've seen in Zechariah many times before..you and me. Two diff happenings.

John does mention it. We'll see that in the next session. I'll show you. Don't get caught up in the fact the word "rapture" (modern term) isn't used. If you go by that logic, then you might as well get rid of the concept of the trinity as well. It's not mentioned either, but the principle is. Same with the rapture.

he Rapture theory as it is commonly understood today is only a novelty. It became really popular toward the end of the 19th century which saw the rise of feverish end times sects like the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, and various Adventists groups.


Nope. You can see in scripture they were expecting him any moment. Paul believed in it. He wrote about it. So didn't John. Besides those groups you mentioned? They DON'T believe in the Rapture.

Perhaps, at this time of great natural turmoil the wicked ones are going to die and go to their judgment, the Particular Judgement.


but Revelatin says they can't die. They try and death won't come. Besides what happens to the Christians then? Are you suggesting the wicked ones go to their judgment and the Christians' just sit around and wait for God to show up? That's what the JW's believe. So you're more in line with that thinking.













Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
One of the 8 signs that Christ predicted that ultimately lead to the destruction of Jerusalem was disastrous earthquakes. St.Matt. 24:7.


Again,......I don't agree. There were NO earthquakes in the taking of Jerusalem. He's talking about the end of the age here in 7. I already covered that in Seal #2,3,4.

Why would Christ say this and all the while be planning to secretly rapture away believers? No way...it's bologna.


you're mixing the two. You're trying to take Revelation and put it with 70AD. So if that's the case, why would he put in the rapture? This chapter has NOTHING to do with the rapture. The Rapture has NOTHING to do with 70AD.

We are NOT talking rapture here. You are bringing it up but it's not really coming into play yet. I kind of mentioned that this time is focused on unbelievers but haven't really gotten into the Rapture part yet. We will get to that in the next session. Let's wait until then, shall we? You're confusing the whole message here with all this Rapture speak.

Yes, read 11:13, the earthquake in the sixth seal exactly mirrors the earthquake in the sixth trumpet.


huh? You're saying the earthquake here in 11 is the same as the one we're reading about in Chap 6? I don't. Two diff time periods, two diff earthquakes. If you're right, then who are the two mentioned in v11-12 right before this earthquake? This is clearly a resurrection of two men. Who are they? They were SEEN going up into heaven by their enemies. Who are they? This happened in 70AD? I don't think so.

We'll touch on that later anyhow. But no, I don't put the two earthquakes together as the same.

another earthquake marked the end of biblical Judaism.


there was NO earthquake in Jerusalem in 70AD. Not one. You bring an earthquake up in Rome 7 years before so what? Big deal. There were lots of earthquakes around that area for years. Some I've written about in the early part of this series. You just can't pull an earthquake of your choosing and try and make it fit here Lula. What I'm writing about here is future. It has nothing to do with 70AD. Nothing.

The earthquake in 33AD did bring about an end to the Jewish sacrificial system. I wouldn't and don't like it when you say biblical Judaism. I think the correct term would be sacrificial system. God did away with the old system but God isn't done with the Jews. You make it sound like he is.

You keep insisting this in 70AD. It's not. I'm writing about future Lula. Not 70AD. .......GAH!!!!










Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Lula posts:
he Rapture theory as it is commonly understood today is only a novelty. It became really popular toward the end of the 19th century which saw the rise of feverish end times sects like the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, and various Adventists groups.

KFC POSTS:
Nope. You can see in scripture they were expecting him any moment. Paul believed in it. He wrote about it. So didn't John. Besides those groups you mentioned? They DON'T believe in the Rapture.


Yes, whenever we read in Scripure that they were expecting Him at any moment, it's always, always refers to the glorious hope of Christ's Second Coming which won't be secret at all, but a very public event.

Neither St. Paul or St.John, nor anywhere in Scripture is there the slightest reference to a two-stage coming where Christ will take up believers and leave others behind.

KFC, Scripture tells us that Christ will come again and that all of us will experience it, believer and unbeliever alike. It will be glorious. It will be final. It will be accompanied by the General Judgment.

I think we'll not find anything from St.John or St.Paul that indicates a "Rapture" of believers before a future tribulation.


Certainly these groups mentioned above have come up with some kind of end times "rapture" idea. Don't they predict a future physical reign of Christ centered in the Middle East for a 1,000 years or something like that? Isn't this similiar to what you are thinking St.John is prophecying in the Book of Revelation? (This may be jumping too far ahead, we can discuss it later.)


Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
another earthquake marked the end of biblical Judaism.


there was NO earthquake in Jerusalem in 70AD. Not one.


You need to read the famous Jewish historian Josephus and more of the writings of the Church Fathers.

We've already discussed that, other than prophetical references, Sacred Scripture has very little to nothing whatsoever about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD....a main event in salvation history wouldn't you agree?


There were NO earthquakes in the taking of Jerusalem. He's talking about the end of the age here in 7. I already covered that in Seal #2,3,4.


Yes, I will agree that he's could be talking about the end of time, that is from the standpoint that everything, every event that happened in the 7 years of Great Tribulation leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple point to similiar tribulation events in the future.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top




We are NOT talking rapture here. You are bringing it up but it's not really coming into play yet. I kind of mentioned that this time is focused on unbelievers but haven't really gotten into the Rapture part yet. We will get to that in the next session.


Well, KFC, if you aren't bringing the idea of the rapture into it yet, then you sure are confusing me.

You write:


The diff between what you believe and what I believe is that yes I believe it will happen to all mankind left on earth but I believe the rapture will occur first so the belivers will not be here.


You have entitled this article , Wrath of God unleashed, and say

We know that scripture is clear that while the believer is to have tribulation in his life, wrath is only for the unbelievers. The believers will not be here.


If the believers will not be here, then where will they be? Haven't you indicated here they were already 'raptured' away becasue they will not undergo the wrath of God?





Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes, read 11:13, the earthquake in the sixth seal exactly mirrors the earthquake in the sixth trumpet.


huh? You're saying the earthquake here in 11 is the same as the one we're reading about in Chap 6? I don't. Two diff time periods, two diff earthquakes. If you're right, then who are the two mentioned in v11-12 right before this earthquake? This is clearly a resurrection of two men. Who are they? They were SEEN going up into heaven by their enemies. Who are they? This happened in 70AD? I don't think so.


The symbolism of the two witnesses is definitely taken from Zecharais 4. But remember the OT events are meant to foreshadow the NTestament.


These witnesses might also represent the ministries of Saint Peter and Paul who were both killed by the beast, when they were martyred in Rome during the Great Tribulation. Daniel expects the beast is Rome, and both St.Peter and St.Paul were martyred before these 1, 260 days began. This happened in the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
The earthquake in 33AD did bring about an end to the Jewish sacrificial system. I wouldn't and don't like it when you say biblical Judaism. I think the correct term would be sacrificial system. God did away with the old system but God isn't done with the Jews. You make it sound like he is.




Almighty God isn't done with the Jews any more than He is done with any of us. We are living the time of the universal preaching of the Gospel St.Matt. 24:14 and the conversion of many Jews Romans 11:25.

Remember, those who belong in the New and Eternal Covenant in the Blood of Christ are without distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
Neither St. Paul or St.John, nor anywhere in Scripture is there the slightest reference to a two-stage coming where Christ will take up believers and leave others behind.


Well it's there, and I've shown you MANY times so not going to get off the Rapture trail right now.

I think we'll not find anything from St.John or St.Paul that indicates a "Rapture" of believers before a future tribulation.


well we'll see when we get to this soon. Besides, it's not tribulation it's wrath. Think wrath of God. Not tribulation.

Certainly these groups mentioned above have come up with some kind of end times "rapture" idea.


Nope.

Don't they predict a future physical reign of Christ centered in the Middle East for a 1,000 years or something like that? Isn't this similiar to what you are thinking St.John is prophecying in the Book of Revelation? (This may be jumping too far ahead, we can discuss it later.)


They all believe differently and none of the groups you mentioned are Rapturists. So you'd agree more with the Mormons and JW's and Adventists than you would me on this matter anyways.

You need to read the famous Jewish historian Josephus and more of the writings of the Church Fathers.


They mentioned an earthquake in 70AD?

We've already discussed that, other than prophetical references, Sacred Scripture has very little to nothing whatsoever about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD....a main event in salvation history wouldn't you agree?


Yes, I agree, there is a little, but not alot mentioned about this.

Well, KFC, if you aren't bringing the idea of the rapture into it yet, then you sure are confusing me.


I think I am too. Not so much in the main topic here but in the comments. It's like this:

With the opening of the sixth seal (end of Chap 6), we see God's wrath starting to take place. Before this it was man directed. The church suffered persecution (tribulation) from men led by the Anti Christ. Now God is saying "enough" and his wrath takes over. So now it's God directed. So we ended it here with the curtain call (so to speak) of God's wrath being unleashed. It even says so in v17.

Now, we go into Chap 7 with the explanation of who will be able to stand (next blog already written by me). It will be those 144,000 that are protected. All others are fair game. The question is what about all the others (the believers) how do they manage? That's what we are going to talk about when we get to 7:9-17.

Does this help?










Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
If the believers will not be here, then where will they be? Haven't you indicated here they were already 'raptured' away becasue they will not undergo the wrath of God?


They will be "raptured" or taken into heaven while God unleashes his wrath on the earth. Here in this particular blog they "haven't" been taken up yet, but it's momentarily. We left here with God's wrath just about to be unleashed or the beginning of it. His wrath really is fully unleashed with the opening of the next seal. We'll see silence in heaven first...8:1. Here with the earthquake, stars, sun and moon it's like the last chance. It's his final warning. It's here. The time has come.

Almighty God isn't done with the Jews any more than He is done with any of us. We are living the time of the universal preaching of the Gospel St.Matt. 24:14 and the conversion of many Jews Romans 11:25.


I think the real conversion of many Jews is still to come. We're just seeing the tip of the iceburg now.

Remember, those who belong in the New and Eternal Covenant in the Blood of Christ are without distinction between Jew and Gentile


Yes, "neither Jew nor Gentile, nor bond or free, all are one in Christ Jesus."