In the main article KFC WRITES:



Why do you use the future tense? Christ already conquered the world, death and sin during His First Coming. At the second Coming, He won't be coming to conquer the world, but to judge it.

KFC POSTS:

Yes, granted, this is a logical argument for those who think the rider is Antichrist and not Christ.

Yet, is this not the Lamb seated at the right hand of the Father ALmighty who has authority over the whole world? Who are we to limit what He can or cannot do?

This is apocalyptic language, with highly symbolic images that St.John is using. Believe it or not, I've also seen this rider and the bow as alluding to the Parthians on the eastern border of the Roman empire who were expert in use of the bow. They constantly harrassed the Romans and won a major victory in 62 AD.

I've also seen the explanation of passive form of "he has given" as having developed in Judaism in order not to call God by name and that St.John, well familiar with Judaism, reminds us that no manifestation or effect of the power of evil is autonomous, that it can only be at work becasue God permits it. This goes together well because the Old Testament imagery typifies the oppression of GOd's people at all times.

As to whom the rider is, I checked out the Douay Rheims footnotes which, as you know, were from the Latin Vulgate translation of St.Jerome in 342. He thought the Rider was Christ. Concernig this verse, and not at ch. 19, the notes are "He that sitteth on the white horse is Christ going forth to subdue the world by His gospel. The other horses that follow represent the judgments and punishments that were to fall on the enemies of CHrist and His Church. So, it's all very interesting.

The black horse signifies famine (St.Matt. 24:7) with outrageous prices for foodstuffs. A sudden, perhaps ten times, rise in the price of wheat and barley, part of the staple diet at the time, signals a period of famine.

Bear in mind that a quart (Greek choinix) was about one kilo or 30 ounces and a denarius a day's wages for a laborour St.Matt. 20:13.
These are clearly very high prices.

The Church teaches that famine and hunger are a consequence of sin and therefore can be intepretated as "punishment". The Church also constantly reminds us all that we have a strict duty to help alleviate the needs of others, for this is a way of combatting evil.

The Chruch asks individuals and governments to remember the saying of the CHruch Fathers, "Feed the man dying of hunger, becasue if you do not feed him, you are killing him". The Vat.II Council urges them according to their ability to share and dispose of their goods to help others, above all by giving them aid which will enable them ot help and develop themselves.

The famine's effects are widespread death.

Now to connect St.Matt 24:7, "There will be famines and earthquakes in various places". Jesus prophecied this to His disciples in the Garden of Olives 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD.

We know from St.Paul's secnd letter to the Corinthians 2Cor.8, there was a great famine that plagued the Jews in Jerusalem. He seems to have been regularly collecting donations from the Christians to ameliorate the suffering of the Chruch in Judea.

Eusbius also documents the famine. "Under Claudius the world was visited by a famine, which writers that are entire strangers to our religion have recorded in their histories."

There were earthquakes that erupted during the decades leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. The city of Colossae was destroyed in the 50s. That was the end of the Chruch there, the same one St.Paul addressed in his letter to the Colossians.

The most famous earthquake was the one in Pompeii in 63AD. The ruins have been excavated. This earthquake, alone with others, would have been the warning to the Christians about 3 or 4 years before the Jewish-Rome War began. All this was the beginning of sufferings St.Matt. 24:8. These signs were preliminary and the situation for them then would get much worse. I believe we can look to those days to understand better the future tribulation just before Christ comes again in Final Judgment.

The fourth horse is a sickly pale death-like color. Its rider is named Death and in this case Death's companion Hell (Hades or Sheol) follows him.

In the midst of this terrible chastisement GOd has pity on mankind and most will survive as many interpret this to show that 3 quarters of mankind will manage to survive. Survive what?

The Greek word thanatos besides death also means pestilence or epidemic disease in general. Since the end of V.8 is taken directly from Ezekiel 14:21, this is a clue to the wider meaning of death as pestilence or epidemic disease. Ezekiel "...my four sore acts of judgment: sword, famine, wild beasts, and pestilence"

Just as the 3rd rider, the 4th also has fixed limits which he may not transgress.

Agian, and this is important to remember when reading apocolyptic language. The apocalyptic riders in this vision are not regarded as harbingers of imminent end of the world, just as little as the parallel text, "the beginning of sufferings" is regarded as the sign of the approaching end.

In the whole of time between the Ascension and the Second Coming of our Lord, in the final time, which we are in, these devestating powers exercise their work of destruction in history. This is why it is so important to understand that they appear at the command of a created being and not that of GOd. Earthlyu pervisity, political and economic desire for power, hate and eny born of every need or pride again and again enter into the scheme of things.

Not God, but the world itself impedes paradise, happiness, and peace on earth. Even if the faithful are drawn by all this evil into suffering with the rest they will know, however, that GOd is master of all ages and all that happens in them. This certainity that all afflictions are intended by God as visitations for their good. Rom. 8:28.

We know from St.Paul's secnd letter to the Corinthians 2Cor.8, there was a great famine that plagued the Jews in Jerusalem. He seems to have been regularly collecting donations from the Christians to ameliorate the suffering of the Chruch in Judea. Eusbius also documents the famine. "Under Claudius the world was visited by a famine, which writers that are entire strangers to our religion have recorded in their histories."There were earthquakes that erupted during the decades leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. The city of Colossae was destroyed in the 50s. That was the end of the Chruch there, the same one St.Paul addressed in his letter to the Colossians.

Hey Lula,

Not sure if you're trying to say that these earthquakes and famines that happened between say 30AD-70-AD are what Christ predicted here in Matthew and putting it with what John wrote here in Revelation, but I'd have to say it's not quite what he had in mind. In other words what we see today as in the African Countries and other parts of the world today are much worse than any other time in history. Just by the sheer number of deaths alone have surpassed already what would have happened back then. Also we've had earthquakes and famines since the days of Abraham and Moses. Remember the Exodus? Or how about the 3 1/2 year famine in Ezekiel's day...a time with no rain at all? Or in Ruth's day. The famine was so bad her husband moved the family to Moab.

What John is saying here with these three horsemen are yet still future, especially going by the numbers and the fact that Christ said it will be unlike anything we've ever seen before. Unlike any other time in history. I believe we are on the cusp of this right now. It's going to start tho, with the rider on the white horse....which is the Anti-Christ.

Another thing to think about......if you think the rider is Christ, think about this. Why would Christ follow the command of a living creature? If you think logically here, you'd see that we just followed an awesome praise service where Christ is found worthy in Chap 5. No one else can compare to him. Then we come to these seals with Christ opening the seals and an angel commanding the rider to come. A living creaturel would not be commanding the one who is worthy to come. A creature is not ushering Christ here to go into the world to conquer. These riders are going out in succession. How could it be Christ going out if he has to open up the other three seals? Also, if this were Christ, he would come with the sword (as in Rev 19) not a bow.

Logically speaking it doesn't make sense that this first rider is Christ. The only thing that you're looking at is the fact that he's riding on a white horse. Satan is a liar and a deciever and is a Christ imitator. He is going to come AS Christ, but will not be Christ. Many will be deceived.

There are other religions that also believe that this rider is Christ so it's not just the CC who believes this way. But it doesn't make sense logically to put him there. I agree that some in past history have believed this to be true but again, as I've said before, God only gives us limited light revealing more to us as time marches on. He seems to give every generation a bit more light than the generation before. Things about Revelation make much more sense today than they would have before modern technology became reality. I think we'll see that as we move along in Revelation. These things wouldn't have made sense back then.

This is one reason he wanted Daniel to seal up what he wrote until the time was right for us to understand. We can't understand Revelation completely without Daniel and vise versa.

Hi KFC,

Yes, of course I'm saying that these earthquakes and famines that happened between 30 and 70 AD are what Christ predicted in answer to His disciples questions in St.Matt 24. They fit exactly with what He predicted, of that there is no doubt.

Now, as for what St.John says here about death, famine, earthquakes, and war, and attributing those as the signs of the future final tribulation, I agree. It stands to reason that these things that happened as a fulfillment to Jesus' prophecy in St.Matt. can certainly and was meant to be applied to or point to what we will be leading up to and during the final tribulation.


Having said that, at the same time, I see no problem with dating St.John's writing as being around 68AD (before the destruction of Jerusalem when all these same events took place while the fledgling Christian Church was going through great tribulation with suffering, and persecution, etc.) Here St.John's prophecy could very well be describing both the tribulation going on during his time and similiar events as these occurring in the future final tribulation.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that some scholars believe the historical background of the Book of Revelation (The Apocalypse) was the reign of Nero from 54-68 AD. The preparatory vision ch. 4-5 serves as a second prophetic investiture for the revelation of God's interventions from the Resurrection of Christ to the fall of Jerusalem. Some scholars find the apocalyptic allusion to different phases of the Jewish War of 66-70 AD. This is what makes sense to me too...but I qualify that at the same time, I see double fulfillment in some of the earlier prophecy.

There is no doubt in my mind that some of the events that St.John is referring to was meant to be decipherable to its original readers. We must remember that God is merciful to these people who were undergoing intense persecution and tribulation at this time if not under Nero then under those who followed him.

So, St.John's Book is not primarily speaking of events in our own day or beyond; he was writing to also encourage and warn the people of his own time. The language he uses makes this crystal clear. He includes the repeated assertion that these things will happen "soon". Remember the Book starts with this: 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must 'soon' take place." In verse 3, St.John re-emphasizes that "the time is near".

The contrast with Daniel's statement regarding these events should be understood to go along with this idea the time is near. Daniel is told that "the words are shut up and sealed until the end of time." 12:9, becasue the time of its fulfillment was five centuries away. The angel tells St.John, Do not seal up the words of prophecy of this book, for the time is near." 22:10.

We can't place the fulfillment twenty centuries later as that wouldn't be honest interpretation.

KFC POSTS:

I agree that for St.John, these 3 horsemen and what they signifiy are still in the future...whether that immediate "future" was the great tribulation of 66-70 AD or whether that future is the final tribulation that proceeds the Second Coming of CHrist of which no one knows when that will be. Prophecy has it that both events will have very similiar signs that preceed them from which we believers can orientate ourselves. The Second Coming will be a revelation with the last veil drawn away.

I know many people think as you that we are getting close, very close and yet, isn't that how just about every age of people felt? Seriously, all we can do is what Jesus said, be ready, keep watch take heed and let no one deceive us, and pray, pray, pray. We must arrange our life in view that any day could be our end, or 'the end' and prepare ourselves for the Parousia of Our Lord and Saviour.

A little caution is required here about understanding the terrible wars, famines and earthquakes that we are experiencing now...and those that will proceed the end of the world. Those at the end will be on a much vaster scale where whole nations will march against each other. Do you think those calamities we are experiencing today should be regarded as heralds of the end..or are these wars and natural disasters part of nature and have to be expected?

You do realize that it's very common for people of various sects, i.e Jehovahs' Witnesses, etc. to predict the end whenever the world is a tough crisis, don't you?

You say it's going to start ....."with the rider on the white horse....which is the Anti-Christ".

I can't agree that here in this verse, the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist. Yes, the AC is coming, but not in this passage, I simply don't see the mention of him yet, although I know it's surely coming.

Why? Becasue, we know of signs that preceed the AC and they haven't been met in these passages. (If they have, then please show me.) Where are the claims of some one to be the Messias for we know he/they will claim this name and mislead many?
To launch this process, this must happen that some one will claim to be the Messias.

You say it's going to start ....."with the rider on the white horse....which is the Anti-Christ".

ok so you don't like my answers thus far eh? So I'll give you some new things to think on here.

If this rider is Jesus doesn't it seem strange that He isn't named until the end of the book....and not at the beginning?

Also the word for crown in Revelation 6:2 is "stephanos" which means "the victor's crown." The crown that Jesus wears in Rev 19 is diadema "the kingly crown." 19:12. The AC will never wear the diadem because it belongs only to the Son of God.

The thought is here, that the AC by having a bow (with no arrows) is coming in peace but will soon exchange the bow for a more lethal weapon as the rider on the red horse will attest. He will go from victory to victory and finally control the whole world...much like Hitler almost did.

Also notice this parallel with Matthew 24. By looking at this you'll see that first the AC has to come before the other horses do their thing.

Matthew 24 / Revelation 6

False Christs (v4-5) / White horse rider (v1-2)
Wars (v6) / Red Horse-war (v3-4)
Famines (v7a) / Black Horse-famine (v5-6)
Death (v7b-8) / Pale horse-death (v7-8)
Martyrs (v9) / Martyrs under the altar (v9-11)
Worldwide Chaos (v10-13)/ Worldwide chaos (v12-17)

So right in Matthew with Jesus laying it all out, he said first the AC would come. He would be the final of many that will precede him. Even today, there are some that think they are the real deal. Dateline did an expose' a few months ago on one who swore he was Jesus who has returned and there are thousands that believe him and are following him around.

We would expect the AC to resemble Christ because he is Satan's great imitation.

I don't quite get your meaning by this question.

For starters, when you think of it the entire Book of Revelation is all about Christ from beginning to end.

Ch. 6 is no different. In my view, it begins with the Rider who is Christ and ends with the Rider who is Christ. Everything begins and ends in Christ in salvation history. The Book of Revelation's overall message is intended or meant to be hopeful to the Christians suffering under great tribulation of the day, is hopeful to those who are presently suffering tribulation (persecution all over the world today), as well as to those who will endure (and hopefully persevere) the final tribulation when Satan is loosed just before at the end of time.


In this sense, St.John transports us from the tribulation of 70AD to the tribulation just before eternity by beginning with the events just as Daniel's 70 week and then extends his outlook to the final eschaton. As his visions progress, he uses anticipation.

The technique of anticipation starts with the seals, next will be the trumpets, then the dragon, etc. With the first seal, the Rider of a white horse appeared, like the marriage supper of the Lamb, was a promise of later hope. At the end Ch. 19:11, 13, 16 He reappears---"I saw Heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judge and makes war...The name by which He is called is THe WOrd of GOd..on His robe and on His thigh He has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords."

This dovetails perfectly with Daniel's Son of Man, and with the words of Christ in St.Matt. 24 and both of these refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and of the Temple in 70AD. The rider symbolizes Christ's victory over the Sanhedrin.

Daniel's prophecy was that the "Son of man" would come in the clouds in judgment and this was fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD, Christ prophecied the destruction of Jerusalem in St.Matt. 24.

Now let's connect it all since you brought up Christ being named at the end of the book....

19:15, The sword coming out of His mouth is a symbol of the eternal Truth He speaks and embodies. That's the battle strategy of the Lamb. The truth of the word of GOd is so powerful that it conquers the physical kingdoms and breaks the dragon's power over people's minds. This is the "stone" of Daniel that crushes the statue (Dan.2:45). This is the "Son of man" coming to judge Dan. 7:13; St.Matt. 24:30) This is the breaker of the scroll's 7 seals Apoc. 5:9. This is the Child who will rule with a rod of iron". Apocl 12:5. This is the treader of the "winepress of the fury of the wrath of God" Apoc. 14:20. This is the nemisis of the dragon and its 2 beasts.

Here is the hope of the Book of Revelation (The APocalypse): Christ's victory is inexorable because His weapon is Truth. I think St.John makes it clear that the rider on the white horse "will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of GOd the Almighty." Apoc. 19:15.

Christ's prediction in St.Matthew 24 was fulfilled. (I'll go over that in a separate post, if need be.) That was Daniel's 70 week and earthly evidence that Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled while CHrist was in Heaven where He was given dominion. Remember, KFC, that Christ Himself applied this prophecy of Daniel to Himself in His trial before the Sanhedrin St.Matt. 26:64? He told the priests who were conducting the trial that they would see this occur. He promised that "this generation will not pass away till all these things take place." St. Matt.24:34-35.

His coming on the clouds here is not His Second Coming, but it is His predicted coming on the clouds to judge the Sanhedrin. He judged them with the desolating deeds of the Roman army under Titus in 70AD. There was great tribulation at this time with the signs you mention above.

The visions of the Apocalypse begin and end with the white-horse Rider. The first seal reminds the Christian community that even though there is much suffering to undergo first, the final outcome is assured. St.John wants us to be absolutely certain that Christ kept His promise; the final outcome is assured and that we can endure in the assurance that He will come again.

I don't quite get your meaning by this question.For starters, when you think of it the entire Book of Revelation is all about Christ from beginning to end.

well of course. The whole bible is about Christ from beginning to end, but it doesn't mean every character mentioned is Christ. This rider is not Christ just looking at it all logically. You are insisting he is, and the only thing you can go on is the white horse. The rest doesn't add up and that's why many believe this is not Christ but the anti-christ. Notice how he's named (as you wrote above) and compare it even with Chap 6. They don't even sound alike....other than the white horse that is. It's deception that's why.

The rider symbolizes Christ's victory over the Sanhedrin.

HUH? You can make it anything you want if you wish. But it doesn't make it so. Where do you get this from? Think logically. The White Horse comes first. Then comes war as a result of the first horse, then comes famine as a result of the second horse, then comes death as a result of the third horse. Go to Matthew 24 and you see the same sequence which is what Christ is warning us to watch for. This is at the end of the age he said. Also you have to ignore the fact that Christ is the one opening the seal here in Revelation. He opens each one and a command is issued by one of the angels. An angel is NOT going to COMMAND Christ to COME. It makes no sense especially in lieu of what was just announced after the great worship service in Chap 5.

Now look at the crowns. Two different crowns are mentioned because these are two different personalities each wearing their crown. Look at their weapons. Christ ALWAYS has a SWORD. This rider (the AC) is brandishing a bow with no arrows. He's coming in peace just before war breaks out because it's a false peace just like Christ foretold in Matthew 24.

It all makes sense Lula. To say otherwise you have to ignore logic and grab onto symbols and make it whatever you wish it to be.

Daniel's prophecy was that the "Son of man" would come in the clouds in judgment and this was fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD, Christ prophecied the destruction of Jerusalem in St.Matt. 24.

Actually there are at least two cults I'm aware of that believe that Christ came back in the clouds as well but more recently after they messed up predicting the end of the world. they got the dates wrong but now believe that he really came back in the clouds and is working on our behalf...doing something...I can't remember what. This was all done to save face for predicting (more than once) the second coming. So now, it's "well he came, and we were right, but he came invisibly in the clouds." So you're not alone here.

of course we've been over this before. I don't agree here with ya!! It doesn't dovetail with scripture at all. Remember Acts 1? You agreed remember? He will come back the same way he left....visibly with the clouds just like it said in Acts 1. Not hidden and secret.

See what you're doing Lula, is you're symbolizing this by making it or trying to get it to fit, but you are going to run into scriptural problems when you do it this way. When he said he's coming back visibly.....I believe it to be true. He never said he was coming back in the "clouds of judgment" anywhere. So not sure where you're getting that from. When he comes back we will all know it. Jerusalem was destroyed many times. This was not the only time.

So now we know how each one of us takes this passage. We should tuck this away and see how it fits with the next section which I'll do when I get back.

I've never heard of Jesus with a bow. The armor of God has a sword, not a bow. Why would Christ wear any armor but the armor of God?

Yes, Jythier, good point!!

KFC POSTS:


And I could say the very same back to you...Antichrist is the rider of the white horse is you trying to get it to fit with the Rapturist theory. According to your interpretation of 4:1, the believers have already been "raptured" ...and now according to the theory..Antichrist and the great tribulation must follow; that is it will occur during the 7 years immediately following the secret “rapture”.

But is that what the text teaches? Does this text point to the Antichrist? I don't see that it does and here's why...

and it’s more than the fact that it's a white horse. It's Scripture that points out the Rider is Christ. When Daniel's 70th week prophecy of the Son of man coming on the clouds as Victor is put together with Christ's prophecy (referring back to Daniel) in St. Matthew 24, we can understand that St.John is describing Christ as victor on the white horse.

I shall tie it all together which should explain why Christ is the Rider. Is it possible that apocalyptic language can use one image to symbolize 2 realities?

Let’s go back to St.Matt. 24 by first understanding what just has happened in Ch. 23, the 7 woes where Christ indicts the scribes and Pharisees for their vices. In v. 36, the chapter ends by Christ saying, “Truly, I say to you , all this will come upon this generation.” Note the word “this” and “this generation” as it’s very important in understanding it’s not about the future final tribulation or about the Antichrist. In v. 37-39, Christ admonishes Jerusalem big time for killing the prophets and stoning them. He tells them Jerusalem is forsaken and desolate. Why? because the holy city has resisted all the unique graces offered it.

Then we read St.Matt. 24 where Christ has just left the Temple when His Disciples came and pointed the Temple out to him and He told them every stone on the Temple would be thrown down. The disciples ask 2 questions. “Tell us when this will be and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the close of the age.” 24:3.

In response Christ predicts 8 signs warning the early Christians when to flee to the mountain to prevent the decimation of His fledgling Church when Jerusalem’s Temple is destroyed.

So here, Christ gave various signs to warn His followers of a tribulation about to break over them. Those signs would be the ones you cited in St.Matt. 24. They are the appearance of false messiahs,v. 4-5, wars and rumors of wars v. 6, famines, earthquakes v. 7, persecution (Great Tribulation) v 9, ; apostasy v. 10-12; Daniel’s desolating sacrilege v. 15-19. Christ states, “There will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no and never will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” St.Matt. 24: 21-22. Daniel’s vision 12:1 speaks of severe tribulation during the reign of Antiochus, and now Christ states there’s going to be the greatest tribulation, far worse than that of Antiochus. Those who follow the Rapture theory believe this has not yet been fulfilled but St.Matthew argues against this.

Jesus is speaking to His followers elaborating on the 8 signs, warning them that they are soon to be in an intense battle for survival. (Those signs were fulfilled in 70AD. The Great Tribulation of His Church in v. 9 occurred under Nero (Antichrist type) from 64-70AD.)

And then in the middle of this He promises the coming of the Son of man within a generation by saying, “they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory...Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. 24:30, 34.

How do these texts dovetail with Christ being the rider on the white horse? How is St. John’s Christ as Victor connected to Daniel and this passage of St.Matthew?

Daniel 7:13-14, tells us that “with the clouds of Heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days, and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him, his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away and His Kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.”

So here in the prophecy of Daniel and St.Matt., the Son, Christ (as Victor) is traveling in the clouds to His Father (the Ancient of Days) in Heaven, seated at His right hand, for the bestowal (given dominion) and glory of His Kingdom. In other words, Christ, because of His Cross, is recognized as Victor over sin and death.
Jesus, during His trial before the Sanhedrin, applied this prophecy to Himself. St.Matt. 26:64, He said, “I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of Heaven.” Here Jesus told the men judging Him they would see the coming foretold by Daniel. Some undeniable evidence of the Son of man’s victory must be seen and must have occurred within the generation of the Sanhedrin. The lifetime of the Sanhedrin overlaps with the time from of Daniel’s vision and the public event that the Sanhedrin would see when Jesus was the spiritual Victor over the Old Covenant and it’s leadership in the days of Nero occurred in 70AD when Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed by the Roman army. Jesus told the Sanhedrin that they would see the day when He would come and judge them.

This isn’t the Second Coming and all these signs of the Great Tribulation in St.Matt. proceeded the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in 70AD. Christ came on a cloud while in Heaven at the right hand of His Father and judged Jerusalem in 70AD. The public event which evidenced the coming of Christ in Victory was the destruction of Jerusalem as instigated by the little horn, Nero aka the Antichrist type. It was a public judgment that proved Christ was Victor in Heaven over His enemies on earth.

From this we understand that a conquering army around Jerusalem ended the 7 years of Great Tribulation, persecution by Nero, famine, war, earthquakes, would all fulfill the Son of man prophecy of Daniel’s 70th week 9: 24-27 as expanded by Christ in St.Matt. 24.

These parallel events between Heaven and earth is what we see covered in the Book of Revelation, The Apocalypse.

Christ is the Victor.
Christ reigning in Heaven is Victor.
Christ is the victory Rider on the white horse and at the same time the victorious judgment of Christ in Heaven as evidenced in the event of 70AD (now part of history), certainly point to a final prophetic event.

In my view this can't be the 7 year Great Tribulation because that already occurred thus fulfilling Daniel’s prophecy.

Even though the interpretations of these visions have been argued over the centuries and will continue as they are right here with us, we can appreciate St.Gregory who said, “Scripture transcends all other sciences by the way it uses one and the same discourse to tell history and reveal mystery.”

KFC,

I have a favor to ask of you. Can you please email me at: [email protected]? )Your old email addy was in the gmail account that got stolen).

So, Lula, Christ came again to judge Isreal, but it wasn't the Second Coming?

This is a logical question. No, Christ didn't "come again" when He judged Israel. After He had ascended into Heaven in the clouds toward His Father, from there, He judged Israel with the Roman army of Titus. That's how we speak of events from between Heaven and earth.

Let's go over it. Because we firmly believe in the Second Coming when Christ comes again to judge, we tend to automatically assume that any passage that speaks of Christ's coming always refers to that Blessed Hope of His Second Coming at the final eschaton. At that time, Christ will come again in the clouds, but then He'll be traveling toward earth to judge all mankind.

Christ said that Daniel's Son of man would come in judgment during the Sanhedrin's generation. We have 3 choices at this point. We know Jesus wasn't lying or that He was mistaken about His timing so that leaves that the "coming" in judgment of Daniel 7 and Matthew 26 occurred before the close of the first century AD and this prophecy has already been fulfilled.

Christ judged Jerusalem with the ROman army in 70AD. He predicted it, "For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you...they will not leave one stone upon another in you becasue you did not know the time of your visitation." St.Luke 19:42-44. From this we know that Jesus fulfilled Daniel's SOn of man prophecy while in Heaven.

So, Daniel's event and prophecy is thousands of years (and counting) before Christ's Second Coming.

Jesus told the Sandhedrin that they would see evidence of the coming of the Son of man as predicted in Daniel 7:13. Yet, those who believe in the Rapture place the second half of Daniel's vision in the future even for our time. This is to justify a still future 7 year Great Tribulation. This isn't Scriptural becasue for that to happen the Rapturist is forced to believe
that on the eve of His Crucifixation, Jesus made a promise to the Sanhedrin, but His timing was off by at least 2,000 years!!! That's why noting the word "this" and "this generation" is so important in understanding this prophecy.

Christ said that Daniel's Son of man would come in judgment during the Sanhedrin's generation

That's why noting the word "this" and "this generation" is so important in understanding this prophecy.

but you're making assumptions here. You're assuming he's meaning THAT generation standing is the one he's talking about. He could also be talking about the generation that will see these things will also be the generation that will see his second coming...which will be in judgment (not 70AD).

Now looking at Luke 19:42-44 I agree it's talking about 70AD there. No question. Notice v42 says ......"If thou had known even thou at lease in this THY DAY, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes."

He's talking about the 69th week. This is the end of the 69th week that Daniel foretold about the Messiah being cut off. Here Christ was weeping over Jerusalem knowing that he came for his own, and they accepted him not. He's about to die here.

There is nothing about "this generation" here at all. That is in Matthew 24:34 and says in the middle of a passage there:

"Verily I say to you, "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled."

He's speaking of a parable and then he speaks about the generation that will see this happen. They will see the start, middle and finish of it. He's not talking about those living then. The Greek word can mean "race" or "family" as well which makes good sense here, i.e. the Jewish race will be preserved in spite of terrible persecution when the Lord comes. You're assuming it means that particular generation standing. Obviously it can't be because these things didn't happen yet. When did "lightening coming out of the east and shines to the west so shall the coming of the Son of man be happen?" V27

Antichrist is the rider of the white horse is you trying to get it to fit with the Rapturist theory. According to your interpretation of 4:1, the believers have already been "raptured" ...and now according to the theory..Antichrist and the great tribulation must follow; that is it will occur during the 7 years immediately following the secret “rapture”.

NO, this has NOTHING to do with the rapture. So that's not correct. Actually 4:1 is pre-trib but we're in Chap 6 now so this has nothing to do with the rapture at all and I'm not totally sold on pre-trib. Mid-trib or "pre-wrath" may even make more sense.

And then in the middle of this He promises the coming of the Son of man within a generation by saying, “they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory...Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. 24:30, 34.

exactly, that's why it CAN"T be the generation then, but HAS TO be the generation still future. The same generation that sees these things happen (24:4-28) will be the same generation that will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. That's why it CAN'T be past, but HAS TO be future. In a 7 year period this is easily well done, with or without the rapture belief.

I have a favor to ask of you. Can you please email me at: [email protected]? )Your old email addy was in the gmail account that got stolen).

done Gid. Now looking forward to hearing from ya!

lula posts:


KFC, the only way this HAS To be the generation still future is for the Rapture theory to hold. According to Rapture theory, Daniel's 70th week which is Christ coming in the clouds in judgment hasn't been fulfilled yet and will occur in our future. In order to accomplish this, Rapture theory puts a 2,000 plus time span in between Daniel's 69th week, (Christ's death) and his 70th week which is when the Son of man comes on the clouds in judgment. I'm saying this prophecy in St.Matthew describes Daniel's 70th week to a "T", and that has already been fulfilled in 70AD, God's judgment on Israel through the Roman army.




Assumptions you say.

There is no doubt that St.John's Book of Revelation is closely tied with the Book of Daniel. In my view, where Daniel's prophecy ends (the 70th week being fulfilled in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem), St.John's begins. I've just shown in reply #38 how St.John's Rider is Christ, the Victor, by tieing our Lord's prophecy in St.Matt 24 in which He quoted Daniel's "Son of man" coming on the clouds in judgment. To me, Daniel's prophecy has already been fulfilled by Christ, as Victor, coming in the clouds in judgment at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD.

To me, Daniel's 70th week has already been fulfilled and is now history...and that blows a big hole in the Rapture theory.

I tend to agree with those biblical scholars who say that St. Matthew most probably regarded the denunciation of the scribes and Pharisees in Ch. 23, and the eschatolgical discourse in chapters 24 and 25 as a single unit. This ties in well with St.Mark who btw also quotes Daniel 7:13, the Son of man coming in judgment.

As you know, St.Matt. 24 is the discourse between Christ and His disciples that begins with Christ telling His disciples that every stone on the Temple would be thrown down. Now such a catastrophe as the destruction of the Temple to their minds could only happen as part of the end of the world. They see the end of the Temple and the end of the world as coinciding. And so, the disciples ask 2 questions. “Tell us when will THIS be (meaning when the Temple will be thrown down) and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the close of the age.” 24:3.

The rest of the chapter tells how Christ answered these questions and ends by warning them (and us) to be watchful and pray. Throughout the discourse, 3 prophecies are interwoven---1--the destruction of Jerusalem by the invading armies of Titus in 70AD---2--the end of the world---3--the Second Coming of Christ .

Each of the 3 events have characteristics of their own and Christ describes the signs preceeding these. It’s easy to confuse the signs and times of the destruction of Jerusalem and those of the end of the world and of the Second Coming. It’s not surprising at all given that the destruction of Jerusalem itself symbolizes the end of the world. Our Lord speaks here very much like in style and language of the prophets who announced the future events without specifiying the order in which they would happen. We’ve also seen that apocolyptic language with its profusion of symbols and images is not all lined up in chronological order. Every prophecy about the future seems quite obscure at first, but as events unfold, especially with actual history behind us, everything fits into place.

The Old Testament prophecies were not well understood until they were fulfilled during Christ’s First Coming; and NT prophecies will not become clear until His Second Coming.

We know the Temple was standing when Jesus spoke this prophecy and even when St.Matthew wrote his Gospel account in 50AD, right? In Rev. 11, St.John writes of Jerusalem and its Temple as though they are still standing and functioning. He’s instructed to measure the Temple and its altar. It’s not referred to as the former Temple, nor is there any reference to its past destruction or the future rebuilding of a third Temple and it’s not referring to the heavenly Temple either.

These are just some of the reasons why I see that these signs which Christ reveals refer to the then-coming destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD; that they apply to the Jews then living during the generation (within 40 years) of Jesus.

As for wars and rumors of war, Christ explains they must come to pass and doesn’t imply that the end of the world is imminent v. 6. Wars aren’t a sign of the end, but only the normal course of judgmental events God brings to the earth.

I used to be a proponent of the view that St.John wrote the Apocalypse around 95-96 AD, however, after researching, I’ve changed my mind. I found that Irenaeus (Against Heresies) and Eusebuis (Church History) are lone witnesses and many references that their research was ambiguous.

Either way, I deduce that the entire NT was written prior to 70AD, since there is nothing to the destruction of Jerusalem or that the Jews had been judged, destroyed and dispersed by Titus’ army. The references to events in The Apocalypse which are said to “shortly come to pass” suggest the destruction of Jerusalem (1:3; 19; 22:7, 10, 12, 20) and that much of the Book would have been fulfilled in the first century.

I know that many, including you, think the Apocalypse was written about 95-96AD well after the destruction of Jerusalem and interpret the signs and these events as all being fulfilled in the future.

Lula posts:

KFC POSTS:

Yes, I do interpret 'this generation' as meaning that particular generation standing, that is the generation within 40 years of Jesus.

St.Matt. 24 ends by Christ saying, “Truly, I say to you , all this will come upon this generation.”

I think that the word “this” and “this generation” is not about the future final tribulation or about the Antichrist, rather it’s regarding the Jews of the first century and the fulfillment of St.Matt. 24 was accomplished at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD which is none other than Daniel’s 70th week.

Jesus promised that He would come again in judgment on His accusers within their lifetime. Since those who heard Jesus make this prophecy were well versed in the Old Testament, the destruction of the Roman army over Jerusalem would have been universally understood as the fulfillment of this prophecy. This is the same as He came in the clouds in judgment to the Egyptians via the Assyrian army. Later, King Belshazzar witnessed God’s coming in the Persian army as meted out His Judgment on Babylon. The tribes of the land did see in the destruction of Jerusalem an mistakeable sign that the rejected “Son of man came in the clouds”, that is enthroned in Heaven, in judgment of them. All the Jews would have understood the Roman destruction as exactly that.

That's why it's important to note the words "this" and "this generation" in understanding this prophecy.

Christ told His disciples that within their generation, 8 signs would point to the destruction of the Temple. These all occurred. The signs warned of His judgment upon the Sanhedrin--the "Son of man " coming in judgment that Daniel foresaw 6 centuries earlier. The judgment occurred within a generation, just as Jesus predicted it would.

Last point in rebuttal to your #42 and 43 posts...



I think He is talking about those living then.

Once we understand the first century context, we can say that Jesus kept His word in St.Matt. 24. The coming of the Son of man in judgment can certainly be veiwed as already fulfilled in 70AD.

Christ finished His answer to the first question with a parable, the fig-tree analagy and this is where this quote 24:34 you cite follows. “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know the summer is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.”

Here Jesus uses the fig tree because it’s plentiful in Judea and when it puts out its leaves, summer is upon Israel. The disciples all know this well. Same thing when the 8 signs occur, the coming of the Son of man in judgment will be near as well, so near He will be at the very gates. Yes, KFC, all 8 signs appeared and were fulfilled in the first century.


Does this parable have eschatological implications, sure it does. The future application of the 'fig tree with leaves but no fruit, could likely point to a national, but non-spiritual re-gathering of Israel as a sign of the end of the age.

It's safe to say, without assuming, that St. Matt. 24 should be interpretated on multiple levels each with its own historical fulfillment. The very same can be said about the Apocalypse.

Multiple applications of the APocalype's prophecies would include both an imminent fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem along with chastisements upon the apostates in the Church and nations, both which certainly occurred in the first century and throughout the Church age.

It seems to me that so far we have seen the Apocalypse portrays these judgments (chastisements) in detail. Ch. 1 introduces Christ as judge of the Churches. Ch. 2 and 3 warns the Churches that the Lord's judgment will come upon them if they do not repent of their deeds. These chastisments are amplified in increasing intensity in Ch. 4, 5, 10 and 15. We see how the chastisemsnts are ordained by the watchful eye and decree of Heaven.

I'll be looking at Ch. 6, 8, 9, 11, 13, 16, 17, 18 as showing how Heaven brings the chastisements upon the Churches for their misdeeds, and the misdeeds of nations who collaborate with her. Interspersed among these chastisements are assurances from heaven that the faithful within the Chruch will be saved Ch. 7, 10, 12, 14, 19, 21, 22.

The judgments upon the Church are the anti-type of the same judgments upon OT Israel, including the final judgment as St.Matt. 24 details.

No it doesn't have to be. You don't have to believe in the rapture at all to believe that Christ is talking about the future generation being there and seeing these things come to pass. "This generation" makes more sense for end times not for 70 AD for a few reasons. One you run into Matt 24:27 and another it's put there right in the middle of the parable of the fig tree. It's talking about the fig tree (Israel) being yet tender. When you see Israel (a very young nation by all standards today)as a tender tree sprouting then this would be the time. This generation will see these things. Can you see it this way at all?



Yes, I agree. But again, it's nothing to do with the Rapture. That's totally separate. The only part I disagree here with you is that you have put this with 70AD. The rest I agree.



Yes, I agree Christ was talking 70AD in the beginning of Matthew 24 but switches to the discourse of the end times starting in v4. This answer from v4 on is in reply to the question in v3. What shall be the sign of your coming and the end of the age. You keep insisting that v4 onward is about 70AD. I don't believe it, neither do many others. Try to read it again, thinking this way and see if it makes more sense.

LULA POSTS:




KFC POSTS:



KFC, I can't see how the words "this generation" can be applied to the future at all. It was just before His Passion when Christ answered these 2 questions. This places the event at the halfway point of Daniel's final week. Christ predicts the events that will take place at the end of those 7 decades of covenantal transition. Daniel's 70th week has been fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD which was the generation of Christ, the Sanhedrin and His disciples.




I did...and this is what I came up with...

Christ answers the questions in the order in which they are asked. The disciples first ask, When will the Temple be destroyed? In St.Matt. 24:4-26,32-35 Christ prophecies 8 signs (events) describing the Great Tribulation that encompassed 7 years of upheaval, suffering and persecution for the early Christians in Judea that led finally to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The same is laid out in St.Mark 13:1-31 and St.Luke 21: 5-33. St.Matt. 24:36-44 and also St.Mark 13:32-37 and St.Luke 17: 22-37 answers the 2nd question.

As I read it, all the details of the first question should be fulfilled in one generation, as Christ predicted, and the details of the second question are still in the future at the Second Coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ.


Notice the word "you" in the following verses and think twice whether or not they mean the disciples and Christians alive then or someone 2,000 or more years away in the future. St.Matt. 24: 9, 15,20, 25,26,32, 33, 34.

9, "then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake."
15, "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;"
20, "Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath."
25 "Lo, i have told you beforehand."
26, "So,if they say to you, Lo, he is in the wilderness.."
32, "From the fig tree learn its lesson" as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near."
33, "So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
34, "Truly, I say to you, this generation will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

All of these you's preceed "this generation". Even grammatically, this seems to mean that Christ was referring firstly to the generation alive at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.



Granted, we do. Interwoven with the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem comes Jesus' mysterious words whose meaning is obscure of His Second Coming. This is really no problem though, since the signs in the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem are symbolic of the end of the world so the Lord was speaking not only of the generation then living, but also of the generation of believers who would follow.