Revelation 6:1-8-The Four Apocalyptic Horsemen

What are the seals? What is this scroll? Will there actually be horses, or is that a metaphor for cars, or something? This book has always seemed like a bad acid trip, to me. Sorry.

Presuming God wants to get some message out, why make it so impossible to interpret? Why not just have office hours where we can ask questions...directly? If you say "prayer" and that God answers in your heart, I will quickly tell you that I DO pray, and this is what is answered.

Imagine you are the father of a child, and you tell the child "I have rules...don't break any of them" but some of the rules are ambiguous. You wonder, for example, if bearing false witness harms no one but spares someone's feelings, is it ok? You wonder if stealing from some guy that has an abundance of resources that you know were ill-gotten to help someone that is dying is ok. How do you get the right answer with the limitations you're BORN WITH?

You must do one thing to make everything black and white. You have to forsake thinking about it at all and live your life by the Book. But if you do that, you are forsaking the very thing that makes us human - the ability to cogitate. Is that not a sin? Before you answer, how many horrible things do you think would be averted if people really thought about them first.

I appreciate your dedication, KFC, but I could appreciate it more if I saw you launch cogent arguments that were YOURS, not the Book's. Granted, I haven't read all your stuff, so maybe it's there somewhere, but everything I have read is just a regurgitation of someone else's mind - like you have none of your own, or something.

Take heed that no one deceives you.

There's only one way to do that, and that's not to believe everything you hear. You have to *think*. So how are we unbelievers supposed to do that when you state no logical argument of your own. Maybe it's YOU doing the deceiving. How should I know that for sure? Do I have to have faith in you now, too?

One thing is fortunate. You know you're going to heaven for a fact because you've crossed all the 'T's and dotted all the 'I's according to your "don't think, just do" reference book. Maybe you should quit while you're ahead, because recruiting other people who also don't think is an easy job. Says so right here:

For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

The "many" that will be deceived are the same ones buying StayHard™ and BreastPlants™ because they share one thing in common. They don't think. At all. And they hold fast to the belief that there is a get out of jail free card for human suffering.

I DO think, and if hell is my reward for using the brain I was given, I have no interest in your heaven whatsoever.

Love,
Ock

Well, if you don't want to spend eternity with God, who are we to force you, Ock? God doesn't even do that.

"You wonder, for example, if bearing false witness harms no one but spares someone's feelings, is it ok? You wonder if stealing from some guy that has an abundance of resources that you know were ill-gotten to help someone that is dying is ok. How do you get the right answer with the limitations you're BORN WITH?"

Give an example of a case of bearing false witness harming no one but sparing someone's feelings.

"Stealing from someone with an abundance of resources that you know were ill-gotten to help someone that is dying?"

Use your own resources.

Give an example of a case of bearing false witness harming no one but sparing someone's feelings.

Your wife asks "Do I look fat in this dress?" She does, but you say "No"

She's hurt when she looks in the mirror and realizes I lied to her. Gimme another one.

Or, her reputation is hurt when she goes out in public and looks fat all night.

Well, if you don't want to spend eternity with God, who are we to force you, Ock?

That's not what I said, J. I said I have no interest in YOUR heaven. I think you've got it all wrong. God told me so.

She's hurt when she looks in the mirror and realizes I lied to her.

No offense...do you have a woman in your life? She already looked in the mirror...several times. What she wants is your approval, not the truth.

I've hijacked this thread...not my intent. I'll stop now

Oh, sorry, my wife doesn't look in the mirror before she asks me. She also wants to know what I really think. But, if she wants your approval, you don't say "No" you say "You look beautiful!" because she does, regardless of what she's wearing, right? So no more hijacking? Man... But Lula and KFC are going to argue for 20 pages anyway, why can't we have fun too?

Hey, Ock, can you show me where you said what is right? I'm interested now to see what it says and argue with you about it.

Hey, Ock, can you show me where you said what is right? I'm interested now to see what it says and argue with you about it

This one is a quote of someone else. but it sounds very reasonable to me. I can't find a logical flaw in it.

This one is mine. And you've already substantiated it by placing the wrongness or rightness of an event as being determined by the events that surround it. (Example, I tell my wife she doesn't look fat in a dress, and then you say but she goes out and her reputation suffers because I didn't say so. Perfect example of what this article speaks of.)

And you'll get no argument from me. If you'd like to think together, I can do that.

Thanks again, Ock, for taking the time. I read through Quantum Truth, but I am having trouble reading the second one. If he had not talked so eloquently it would have been easier to see all his flawed presumptions. I will not go into it here, nor will I resurrect an old thread. Perhaps I will start my own thread about it.

As for Quantum truth, your point was that a lie could be good or evil based on the circumstances. I say that regardless of what circumstances you put around it, a lie is still wrong. Also, you started with the premise that feelings being spared is good! Is it? Well, that's depends on the circumstances - but bearing false witness does NOT depend on the circumstances.

OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:



Hi Ock,

The answer to what is the scroll can be found in KFC's "Revelation 5: 1-7. Who is Worthy?" There is mention of the seals there too; I think enough to give you a foundational understanding.

If he had not talked so eloquently it would have been easier to see all his flawed presumptions. I will not go into it here, nor will I resurrect an old thread. Perhaps I will start my own thread about it.

You can start with the fact that it's a she that wrote that.

Hi Ock, The answer to what is the scroll can be found in KFC's "Revelation 5: 1-7. Who is Worthy?" There is mention of the seals there too; I think enough to give you a foundational understanding.

I'm sorry, you've misunderstood me. I've read the bible several times. I'm asking about the nature of these objects. Where are they from? Why do they need to exist? Why am I even asking? The only answers you'll have for me will be more of the same. See if you can answer without quoting from the book. Consider it an exercise.

He, she, what is a female? What is a male? Was it a he trapped in a woman's body? How do we know? What is truth?

OCKHAMSVIZOR POSTS:

Since both the scroll and the seals are found in the Book of the Apocalypse, we know they symbolize images which depict the course of the world towards its end. This is not mere happenstance that they are mentioned there or anything else that's in Scripture for that matter.

God, Himself, is speaking to us through the pages of Scripture. From it, we can learn how we ought to live, what will happen to us when we die and a myriad of other things.

Although externally history might appear as a chain of human decisions, as a linked series of human actions and omissions, this external view doesn't give a complete picture for history is determined by the decisions of God Himself. God as our Creator is bringing His Creation towards the goal He set for it. With the Incarnation of His Son, Jesus Christ, God Himself passed into history of His world and with this happening He has posited the real and decisive deed of history.

Scripture tells us about Christ, now raised at the right hand of God, has thus become the destiny of the world. In this Book, St. John tells the future eternal form of God's Creation.

For the most part, everything I write comes from Catholic commentary and interpretation.

A few basics:

The word "prophet" comes from the Greek pro-phetes and Hebrew, Nabi which means "to speak on behalf of someone", especially God. It therefore has nothing to do with predicting the future an activity described in Greek as mantis. Nabi came to mean "one chosen by God to speak in His name".

The Apocalypse or Book of Revelation is the only prophetical book in the New Testament. Both Jewish and Christian traditions hold the books of the prophets in high regard because prophecy was an integral part of the religious heritage of ancient Isreal, and these books record the Word of God addressed to His people through the prophets.

In order to avoid possible misinterpretation, we must not forget that all descriptions here are symbolic images which mean they do not predict future events as they might occur. Another thing to remember generally about Apocalyptic images is that only to a lesser degree can they be compared with a naturalistic portrayal of reality.


It's difficult and profound and yet focuses intense light of the figure of CHrist in glory, and builds up our hope of attaining everlasting life. The Revelation to St.John constitutes a strong call to conversion. Like oracles spoken by the prophets, it urges people to commit themselves to good and put their trust in God. It's a book of consolation written at a time of exceptional stress no matter whether you think it written in 67 or 90 AD.


The introductory vision, chs. 4 and 5, fix the standpoint from which the symbolic portraits of future development are to be contemplated if they are to be correctly understood. Presupposing the right orientation, the insight emerges.


Besides God, there are no independant forces which make history. All powers and figures which appear in history and who seem to determine it by their own power are in fact subject to God's disposition. St.John emphasizes that history is firmly within the grasp of the Lamb with the seven horns and seven eyes. Christ has been given full authority to guide and bring the world to its good end. The redemptive plan God has for His Creation is ever unfolding.

After describing the vision of Heaven, especially the risen CHrist empowered to reveal God's hidden plans, St.John now begins to disclose that Revelation little by little as each of the 7 seals are opened.

Strictly speaking, one could not look into the first part of the seals until all the seals have been opened. Why? The latter would mean that the entire plan of God for His world would be disclosed. Here disclosed would mean, in the focus of Revelation, the same as fulfilled , this is to say that to be completely disclosed would mean that the cousre of history has come to an end.

If, however, contrary to a technically correct conception, a course is already set in motion with the opening of each seal, this then indicates that we are dealing with preparatory events, which indeed are aimed at the fulfillment of God's final Will, the consummation of the kingdom of God, but they do not by themselves realize this kingdom step by step. In other words, St.John didn't write these visions in strict chronological order.

Rather than seeing the seals and the trumpets as chronolocially related, we could/should view the passages as portraits of this period from different angles. For example, I would posture that the seals look at these events from the perspective of the Lion/Lamb who opens them. After all, the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation) is addressed to the seven Churches that are in Asia and it's commonly agreed that since the number 7 is symbolic for complete, this means that St.John is addressing the entire Church. But what is the Chruch going through in 67 or 90-96 AD which ever time you think that he is writing? Either time, it's going through great tribulation (persecution) either from the reign of Nero ( 67 AD) or from that of Domitian (96 AD).

From the outset, St.John informs us of his purpose. He hopes to encourage an appropriate Christian response, "patient endurance" to the "tribulation" which they are undergoing. Apoc. 1:9. Now, we know that Christ's Church has been ruthlessly persecuted and justice is finally being meted out upon the persecutors.

Can we read the Apocalypse with an understanding that some of it will be prophecy that refers to the past times of tribulation in order to prepare us for what is coming at the end of the world? Of course we can.

The Lamb opens one seal after another. The course of events
which is triggered off by it, is each time set in motion by one of the four living creatures with a cry of command like thunder. It's always one of the four living creatures that calls up the horsemen with a cry of command like thunder. The Almighty power of God and of the Lamb in this picture revealed a majestic silence.


First Seal---Rider on a white horse



The opening of the first seal reveals a message of hope, given by the King for the encouragement of the persecuted Christian community. The first rider is difficult to interpret. And this is obviously where KFC and I depart...right at the beginning..  

His features suggest that He is some type of power in the service of God. The color white is symbolic of belonging to the heavenly sphere and of having won victory with God's help. Rev. 3:4, 5, 18; 14:14; 20:11.

The crown he is given and the words "he went forth conquering that he might conquer" would refer to victory of good over evil 2:7, 11, 17, 28, 3:5, 12. The bow indicates the connection between this horse and the other three: in that these latter will be as it were arrows loosed from a distance to implement God's plans.

The first rider goes forth "conquering and to conquer" refers to Christ's victory in His Passion and Resurrection, as St.John has already mentioned in 5:5 and also annnounces the final victory of the Word of God which first will come about later. Christ appears on a white horse riding in victory over His enemies again at the end of the Apocalypse 19:11. The first seal is anticipation of that event.

The horseman will provide a kind of key which provides a specifically Christian meaning for all the terrifying scenes in the Book. Apropos of this, Pope Pius XII wrote, "He is Jesus Christ" armed with the conquering Truth He proclaims. This picture of Christ on a white horse is reminiscent of Wisdom 18:15-16, "Thy all powerful Word leaped from Heaven, from the royal Throne, into the midst of the land that was doomed, a stern warrior carrying the sharp sword of Thy authentic command."

So, the vision of the Apocalypse begins and ends with the white horse Rider. The first seal reminds the Christian community that even though there is much suffering to undergo first, the final outcome is assured: Christ will be victorious. From Heaven's perspective He already is.

OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:

I can't really tell if you're joking or being serious! In any event, I'd say in response that God has gotten His message out. He did that by having Christ come to earth, preach and teach and then send His representatives out on a mission to finish the job He started contiuning His message without changing one iota of the truth He proclaimed Himself and through His apostles.

After Christ ascended into Heaven, those whom He had given His authority went about proclaiming His message. Before Christ ascended into Heaven, He established His Church and gave His Chruch the authority to teach and preach in His name. This Revelation is called Sacred Apostolic Tradition. They went to all nations preaching and teaching His message. Catholics believe written Revelation---Sacred Scripture is the Word of God and granted by God to the Church, it's maker and it's her office therefore to declare what it means.

So, in this sense, the Bible is not impossible to interpret and understand what it means. Now, some of what is in the Bible is not ready for us to fully understand as I have just written. Parts of the Apocalypse is prophecy and thus hasn't been fulfilled and so the Chruch hasn't declared definitively what this passage or that passage means. We aren't ready to receive the fullness of Revelation, if we will ever be ready to receive it. Time will tell.

What are the seals? What is this scroll? Will there actually be horses, or is that a metaphor for cars, or something? This book has always seemed like a bad acid trip, to me. Sorry.

hahahah well I'd say John would agree with you as well as Daniel. Both were very disturbed at this vision. John fell as a dead man when he was approached with all this.

Well if you read all of scripture you see scrolls and seals used many times. To seal something means it's legitimate; it's binding and is not to be opened until it reaches it's final destination. Sealing denotes ownership. If you read Eph 1 you'd see that the HS seals believers until the day appointed when we reach our final destination. Our eternal life is legit, binding...it's like escrow or deposit for what's to come. The book of Esther is a historical book and you can see alot of this in that time period as well. When a decree was given, signed, sealed and delivered, it had to go forward. There was no going back.

Horses? I'd say they were horses. It says horses. We see horses in Zech 1 as well patrolling the earth.

"I saw by night and behold a man riding upon a red horse and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom and behind him were there red horses speckled and white. Then said I, O my Lord what are these? And the angel that talked with me said to me I will show you what these be. And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord has sent to walk to and fro through the earth."

God wants to get some message out, why make it so impossible to interpret? Why not just have office hours where we can ask questions...directly?

Isn't that a bit like the pottery asking the potter why he made him such and such and not like so and so? We don't know they "whys" quite often. Our ways are not like his ways. We just know what is revealed to us. The best way to answer your question is to go to God and let him answer: Matthew 13:11-17

Jesus was asked....."why do you speak to them in parables?" He answered them, "Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever has to him shall be given and he shall have more abundance; but whosoever has not from him shall be taken away even what he has. Therefore speak I to them in parables because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "by hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive. Tor this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart and should be converted and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. For verily I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see and have not seen them and to hear those things which you hear and have not heard them.

Imagine you are the father of a child, and you tell the child "I have rules...don't break any of them" but some of the rules are ambiguous. You wonder, for example, if bearing false witness harms no one but spares someone's feelings, is it ok?

THis is a good question. In Exodus the mid-wives were told by the Egypians to kill all the male babies as they were being born. They feared God more than the government and not wanting to disobey God they let the babies live. When asked why they were still alive, the mid-wives lied. So the question was...was it ok for them to lie?

I believe they didn't have to lie. God would protect them. A good example of this is in Corrie Ten Boom's book "Hiding Place." Her sister would NEVER tell a lie. When the Nazi's stormed their home in search for hidden Jews, Betsy, the sister when asked admitted they hid the Jews under the table. But before she spoke, an unnatural urge to giggle hit her and when asked she pointed under the table. Under the rug which was under the table was a hideout for the Jews. She told the truth, but they didn't believe her. God protected her and blessed her truthfulness.

It's never right to do wrong.

You must do one thing to make everything black and white. You have to forsake thinking about it at all and live your life by the Book. But if you do that, you are forsaking the very thing that makes us human - the ability to cogitate. Is that not a sin?

Believe me Ock....much thinking has gone on here. More than you think. In fact, I believe those who do not believe and search out these truths are the ones who are not thinking. Most just don't want to think about these things. If they do, they would realize it's not all about them. It would mean change. Change can be hard.

I appreciate your dedication, KFC, but I could appreciate it more if I saw you launch cogent arguments that were YOURS, not the Book's

Well it's not about me Ock....that's the whole point. My job as a Christian is to point to God. Not to myself. I do my fair share of giving out my opinion or arguments as well. I can be quite opinionated actually.

There's only one way to do that, and that's not to believe everything you hear. You have to *think*. So how are we unbelievers supposed to do that when you state no logical argument of your own. Maybe it's YOU doing the deceiving. How should I know that for sure? Do I have to have faith in you now, too?

I agree with you here. We should think. Do you realize the first commandment is to love God with our whole heart, soul and MIND? God gave us a mind and expects us to use it.

I have an acronym for Think....we are to think on whatever is T-rue, H-elpful, I-nspiring, N-eedful, K-ind.

Yes, it could be me doing the deceiving...that's why I ALWAYS encourage others to seek out what I'm saying...I ALWAYS say don't believe me just because....you need to know this for yourself. No, you should not have faith in me.....not by any means. I don't have all the answers but I can point you to the one who does.

For believers we are to "test the spirits" from where they come. For unbelievers? They have to go directly to God in all sincerity and ask him in all genuiness to show himself to them. He will. But he will not to a mocker. That's why Christ didn't reveal himself to unbelievers as I showed you in the above passage.

I DO think, and if hell is my reward for using the brain I was given, I have no interest in your heaven whatsoever.Love,Ock

I DO think and Heaven is my reward for using the brain I was given and I DO have an interest in heaven. If you ever change your mind.....you know how to find me.

Blessings

KFC

Hey Ock, in your "Quantum Truth" you say this:

because we can never see ALL of the events surrounding this event, we can never discover with absolute accuracy the "goodness" or "evilness" of this event without an accompanying arbitrary choice of a definition of "good". This arbitrary choice, as much as many people wish to try to prove is not at all arbitrary, is what is called "faith."

If Quantum Mechanics (QM) proves that there is no such thing as absolute certainty, how then you ask for absolute knowledge of Good and Evil?

I said this many times but here it is again: it is very strange that when scientists discuss religious or moral issues they dont use THEIR OWN RULES. the ones they use and apply when discussing scientific issues. Then they turn around and say science and religion cant co-exist.

it is very dishonest to not use the SAME RULES in discussing any issue.

You accept QM with all its uncertainties and believe its texts and the people who wrote them without even meeting or talking to any of them. AT the same time, you INSIST on meeting GOD and talking with him PERSONALLY in order to believe in HIM. You dont treat the prophets and messengers and the texts they provide in the same way you treat Schrodinger's Heisenberg's, Dirac's or Born's text. You even take an equation that no one can say what it Physically represent as a valid one. All that but a text delivered by someone who had no personal gain in falsifying its source is all nonsense to you. why? because God didn't talk to you personally and you have no bases to believe the person who delivered the message.

did you ever wonder how in the world did a system like that (i.e. QM)ever existed?

How did this happen? who made it that way? It doesnt make any sence but there it is we see all its magical results.

who created that? itself?

Science is the first to admit it cant create itself because of the following:

If it created itself it will be a perfect system since it is a Creator and also it exists then it is a creation. That is perfection.

However, according to Godel's Incompleteness Theory that perfection CAN't Exist within this universe.

Therefore QM cant be a Creator. It exists but did not create itself.

So who did?

The logical answer is: it must be a Higher Authority above this unuverse and its laws. Believers call that God.

Consistency is a must in any science or logic. double standards are the tool of bias.

And this is obviously where KFC and I depart...right at the beginning..

but it makes no sense Lula. How can "He give to the rider" if the rider is himself? He's giving permission to the rider to do what he needs to do. After the rider leaves, he then gives to the next rider and so forth.

I think those that believe the rider on the white horse is Christ are being fooled by the "white" of his horse. Remember Satan deceives and will come as an "angel of light."

I don't know how many deceivers out there I've seen over the years (Benny Hinn comes to mind) who walk out all dressed in white with their arms up as if they were God. The white of their garment does nothing but hide the blackness of their heart....but NOT from God.

Jesus will come on a white horse, but that will not be until Rev 19.

Apropos of this, Pope Pius XII wrote, "He is Jesus Christ" armed with the conquering Truth He proclaims. This picture of Christ on a white horse is reminiscent of Wisdom 18:15-16, "Thy all powerful Word leaped from Heaven, from the royal Throne, into the midst of the land that was doomed, a stern warrior carrying the sharp sword of Thy authentic command."

see your pope was wrong!! He wasn't carrying a sword. The rider on this horse had a bow. I made that point in the main body of the article. That's one of the reasons we believe he's the AC and NOT the real thing. The rider in Rev 19 has a sword. The Pope is wrong Lula.

LULA POSTS:

No, he wasn't wrong in the cntext of which he was referring to the Word which is Jesus Incarnate and also the Good Book.



Notice that Jesus is armed with the conquering Truth He proclaims. By Scripture we receive the conquering Truth and this reminds us of the passage from Wisdom which I quoted and has the reference of the sword. I could be mistaken in that I read this with the understanding the sword, in this case, can be understood to be Sacred Scripture.

KFC POSTS:

Another thing, please note where I put the quotation marks.



I'm the one who cited the Book of Wisdom to the meaning through by connecting the sword with the Truth He proclaims through Scripture.

I agree with Pope Pius XII who wrote in his Nov. 15, 1946 address, of the Rider, "He is Jesus Christ".

I accept that you think he's wrong.

[quote]APoc. 6: 3-4 "When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 And there went out another horse that was red. And it was granted to the one who sat on it that he should take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.[/quote]


The next three seals are also horses with riders. The red horse signifies war St.Matt. 10:34.




I'm glad to see that you brought up St.Matt. 24, KFC. We should note that the seals are opened in the same order that Jesus used in warning His disciples about the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD. (signs 2 and 3 in Jesus' discourse of St.Matt.24). Here, St.John is describing the fulfillment of our Lord's predictions spoken about 4 decades earlier.

The second rider carrying the sword is clearly recognizable as a bringer of calamity. Red, the color of blood and fire, is in the Apocalypse, the mark of powers hostile to God 12:3; 17:3-4.

By using the words, "kill one another", St.John could easily be referring to his own time to the civil wars being waged at the time of the Roman Empire but also to war in general, where rebellion and upheaval have their driving power from evil, which at the time of the End will be a signal of imminent destruction of the whole world. St.Matt. 24:6.