Racism at the BET Block Party

Misleading title - sort of - but whatever

from JoeUser Forums
Let's see...where to start with this one...

I guess with:

I have now met BUNCHES of Africans spanning a few countries in West Africa, namely Ghana, Togo, Angola, Gabon, and Sao Tome and Principe, and it taught me something funny. Afro-American is a really really silly term. I've met a lot of "Afro-Americans" spanning most of the continental United States, and after doing some elaborate math which I won't bore you with here, the number of relevant instances of resemblance between the two subsets of humans is...*checks notes*...ah yes. Here it is. Zero. (I don't count dark skin as relevant...in fact, I count that as obvious.)

I do realize that the "Afro" part of the phrase is supposedly due to pride in heritage, but I very rarely encounter it as such. What I usually observe is that it is a statement of resentment that won't die, and, in fact, a statement that some black folks don't WANT that resentment to die. And here comes the most recent example that will explain the title of this blog.

For the last few days, I was sent, with 23 other Navy band members, to Cannes, France to play a few gigs. We stayed on an air craft carrier. (Can't tell ya which one, although it might be published somewhere...I dunno, but Operational Security forbids me)

For sleeping arrangements, (which is a pretty funny joke since it was impossible to do any sleeping), they put us in the "hood." The berthing was mostly *cough* "Afro-americans" *cough* who were probably the most rude and obnoxious people I have ever seen. Up late at night until the wee hours of the morning shouting expletives at the top of their lungs while playing Xbox or watching porn while other people had the audacity to try and sleep.

So...I was in a bottom rack, and two racks above me was this little white guy. For those of you who don't really understand sleeping arrangements on ships' berthings, a "rack" is about the size of a coffin - in fact, the locker for your stuff which is accessed by lifting your bed up is called a "coffin locker." They are usually stacked in threes.

On the last night we were there, there was a VIP reception that I played some jazz at. They almost always have alcohol at these receptions which played into what happened.

After the gig, and we had packed and stowed all of our gear, I returned to my rack because it was going to be an early morning for our departure. The BET Block Party was already in full force...actually, it had never stopped since the moment we arrived, but let's not split hairs. One of the guys who had been a server at the reception returned shortly after proclaiming loudly to his niggas (his word, not mine) that he was drunk. I guess he considered the proximity of the alcohol he was serving the guests to be a license to get drunk on duty.

He proceeded to "nigga" this and "nigga" that at the top of his lungs for about an hour wherepon the little white guy two racks above me returned from liberty on shore. From my rack I hear him exclaim "Damn...someone stole my curtains!" (The curtains on your rack are all that you have to get a little privacy while in your rack - privacy that you obviously need when you need to beat one down, as we say.)

So he walks into the BET Block Party and after all of these "Afro-Americans" had been shouting "nigga this and nigga that" for about an hour, this guy says to them "I really would like to know who stole my curtains" and he was pretty nice about it. Laughter ensued, and the little white guy says "Listen, you know I love all you black people, and stealing my towel is one thing, but I NEED my curtains," to which I heard this astonishing response. "Oh you are NOT going to go there..."

I muttered "you've been shouting "nigga" at the top of your lungs for an hour, but if this guy says the word "black" he isn't supposed to? Why?

Well we all know the answer to that. It's because he's white.
3,061 views 32 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
I let my wife read this and listened to her commentary. As a result, just to clarify, this article is about the fact that all the REAL Africans I meet are really not happy about the term "African-American" because there is NOTHING African about African Americans. To be honest, they're pretty pissed at American blacks for using the phrase and don't want to be associated in any way. Just reporting the facts...don't shoot me.

Mari was concerned that the whole thing would be taken as some white supremicist statement on my part. She is a Japanese-American. The Japanese in her is evident...it has nothing to do with slanted eyes or yellowish skin...it has to do with the fact that there is direct relevance between the culture she grew up in and the culture of America where she has spent the latest part of her life. She is genuinely part Japanese, part American.

There isn't anything African about any African-Americans I've ever met - even the ones that try to dress the part.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Now regarding your response, I must admit I can find no fault with what you've said.

It is strange to me the guilt that white Americans feel (by and large) that sets them in this apologetic position to HUMANS that behave like animals. Why feel guilty? Did the guy scream nigga at the top of his lungs for an hour? Yes! Objective fact. But when my boys and I jokingly say "What's up my niggas?" to each other, we have to be careful. Some black person might be in earshot and get offended. Now what the fuck? Why IS that? Anyone want to shed some light on why white people, so many years later, are apologetic to racists?

Sheesh...this topic is gonna get me a slap or two from somebody, I'm sure.

Oh well.
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yeah, but they know what they'll get if they respond to you on these subjects. Not so with me.

I'm actually a little surprised this thread didn't fill up fast. Either I have lousy readership (probably) or no one knows quite what to say (probably, as well).

What's up my niggas? Where you at, yo?
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

Not to be rude, But it really matters how the blacks perceive the whiteboy saying the word nigga or nigger, in my youth I was labeled a CWB by the blacks {CRAZY WHITE BOY ] so I used the term when ever I saw fit in the company of blacks or not and got away with it, simply because it was to much 'trouble' to start anything with me because I had a death wish and the black folks knew it.

A couple days ago {Last Saturday} my wife brought a tee shirt home from an Ora Lee Brown fund raiser, Ora Leee is a black lady that helps poor kids get into college, no matter what color skin they have,

 The Blacks in Oakland HATE HER, they think she should ONLY BE HELPING Black kids get into college. There is so much reverse discrimination going on it makes me puke.

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
i must be missing something here. other than allowing us to see the rather large chip on your shoulder (i'm trying to be polite here), your claim of racism is totally unfounded.


how many italians have you met in your travels?

how closely do they resemble the italian-americans you've known in the states?

ditto for irish-americans, german-americans, etc.

more importantly, could you please explain why or how your life would be better if you could freely indulge your need to use that word? are you equally frustrated by those social constraints which limit your freedom to openly address or refer to members of your audiences as 'assholes' even tho many of them frequently do it among themselves?
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
In Ockhams defense, the first part of his article is very true, the African-Americans I know in the States are nothing like the actual Africans I met in Italy. But Kingbee's comment is also very true, are any of the (insert nationality here)-Americans much like their native counterparts?

I always find it interesting when someone in the States tries to claim they know about Italians because they met some third generation Italian American...or that an Italian restaurant is "authentic" because it is run by someone whose ancestors came from Italy. Sorry guys, but the American cultural influence is WAY too strong.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
i must be missing something here. other than allowing us to see the rather large chip on your shoulder (i'm trying to be polite here), your claim of racism is totally unfounded.


We can agree to disagree, but I'm pretty sure that when a person is not allowed to do something because of the color of their skin, it's racism. It was clearly the case in the story I told, and had I ever just walked in to that little lounge area and said "What up niggas?" do you honestly believe the response would have been positive? I DO have a chip on my shoulder, but it's not the one you think.

how many italians have you met in your travels?
how closely do they resemble the italian-americans you've known in the states?


WAY closer than the African/African-American comparison. I believe it's because many of them still have a really good idea of what Italian culture is like. Here's an example, as well. I am married to a Japanese-American. She speaks Japanese fluently. She still eats and in many ways prefers Japanese cuisine. Her mother sends her care packages of Japanese foods she cannot buy here. When she speaks English, you can't detect a trace of Japanese accent. She's very Americanized, but she is quite clearly well aware of what it is like to actually live in Japan.

But Kingbee's comment is also very true, are any of the (insert nationality here)-Americans much like their native counterparts?


See above - the answer is an emphatic 'yes'.

more importantly, could you please explain why or how your life would be better if you could freely indulge your need to use that word?


I'm afraid I've misled you (generic) with my lack of being able to clearly convey a message in writing. I have no desire to use the word freely, and am well aware that it represents no potential increase to my quality of life. I'm just pointing out what I view is hypocrisy.

are you equally frustrated by those social constraints which limit your freedom to openly address or refer to members of your audiences as 'assholes' even tho many of them frequently do it among themselves?


I'm not sure what you mean by my 'audience' but I think I can address the question. Maybe. The word 'asshole' has no racial connotation, and so it doesn't really matter in this discussion.

Here's a fun fact (to end this reply with). I was talking to a Ghanaian last time I was in Ghana. (Or was it an Angolan in Angola?...ah well, matters not). THEY don't like it (he told me) that African-Americans call themselves that. They don't want that association because, as he told me, 'those black people know nothing at all of Africa and tend to give real Africans a bad name' So you don't have to buy what I'm selling, but I'm gonna go with my African friends' opinion on this one because what he says corroborates my observations.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
reverse discrimination


Forgive me MM, but this is sort of a pet peeve. There is no such thing as 'reverse discrimination,' but it just goes to show what time it really is that everyone understands the use of the phrase.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
How many Americans of european descent have YOU met that insist on that ancestry being referred to every time they're mentioned


within a mile-long x 3 short block wide area, beginning exactly where i'm seated at the moment and continuing due south, are located hall-sized buildings identified by their signs as a dalmation-armerican club, a croation-american dom (house?) and an italian-american club. there may still be a jugoslavian-american hall as well.

it's my understanding this little city within a metropolis is home to 45,000 residents of italian descent and another 35,000 who trace their origins to croatia, dalmatia and serbia.

i attended a high school in a community downriver from detroit. in the neighborhood around that school were located scores of 'polish-american' enterprises. about a mile away, a neighborhood surrounding the city's other church-school complex contained roughly the same number businesses proclaiming themselves to be irish-american or hiberian-american markets, taverns, etc.

i've never used the word african-american in real life as a reference, description of or euphemism for black people when speaking with them or in their presence. i've never received even the subtlest suggestion from anyone--black or white--that i should.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
when a person is not allowed to do something because of the color of their skin, it's racism


forbidden by statute to do something which members of other races are permitted qualifies racism.

do you honestly believe the response would have been positive?


no less so than if you were to walk into a room fulla marines and address them by whatever derogatory term for their branch of the military is currently preferred by members of the navy.

speaking of the navy, are sailors permitted to party loudly at all times aboard ship? from your description, it seems mchale was born 40 years too soon.

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am not Japanese-American. I am an American Japanese. There is a huge difference. I am not trying to be separate, unique and different from other Americans. I am an American.


I think that was the point, if I didn't understand it before. The Africans are offended by the term "African-American" because these people aren't even remotely African. They have a culture all their own. Am I right?
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

I believe Africans would embrace American Africans, proudly share their heritage with their American brothers and sisters, and take pride in knowing their culture will not be pushed aside just because he/she lives on another continent. "African-Americans" have their own culture and language and it is as varied as the communities across the United States. Then, of course, we have Americans...the community without the need to differentiate oneself based upon skin color, some past wrong committed upon them, or insisting upon being "fill in the blank" when they are not in their country of heritage. If I want to be Japanese, live like other Japanese, and be surrounded by the culture of Japan, then I will move back to Japan. Otherwise, I am happy being an American Japanese who celebrates the holidays of my childhood, practices the religion I was raised in, speaks Japanese with my family (but only English when non-Japanese speakers are present), and goes about my day as an American in Neapolitain surroundings.


I hope I didn't offend you. Just from the little I have read on here I think you are an amazing person. Being a miscellaneous white person of random European descent so far back that it doesn't count, I am jealous! What an incredible gift to be able to not only experience but assimilate so many cultures. Not everyone handles it so well, but seems like you have done beautifully!

I am not really into semantics and don't know what the "politically correct" thing is to do, but I teeter between thinking we are all American and should be called just that and not wanting us (or really "you") to loose our heritage. My point was just that there are those, as you said, who are really more American than anything else and then there are those, like you, who truly are bi-cultural.

Wow OckhamsRazor, is this at all where you saw this post going???
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
OckhamsRazorJuly 29, 2007 06:13:57


reverse discrimination


Forgive me MM, but this is sort of a pet peeve. There is no such thing as 'reverse discrimination


actually there is. but if this is a sensitive subject I Shall leave it alone.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
asaxygirl


what wonderful replies, and to think all this time you have been here reading and I have never had the pleasure of reading how you think and feel.

You gave concise, well structured statements of facts {to you} without taking anyone to task, nor putting anyone down for how they might think and feel.

Again, a pleasure to 'meet you.

elie aka MM
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Time for the Axis child to insert her two cents.


Ladies and gentlemen...Mrs. Razor.

Wow OckhamsRazor, is this at all where you saw this post going???


To my knowledge, Mari aka "asaxygirl" (because aside from being a scientific genius, she's also a mad bari sax player) has never posted anything here at JU. I'm honored she showed up to weigh in...and did so with such clarity. Did I see it going there? I pushed it there, and when it got there, Mari showed up and nailed it to the floor. Very cool. She'll get a kiss for that one She's been at the desk across from me working on psychopharmawhatchamacallit all day. I had no idea she had paused to jump in here and post, but I'm happy she did. She said, much better than I could have, exactly what I was driving at.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
but if this is a sensitive subject I Shall leave it alone.


Not a sensitive subject...just a pet peeve. I believe discrimination is discrimination. I would be interested in hearing how the definition of "reverse discrimination" differs from that of "discrimination." Maybe I missed something.

Edit: After I posted this, I googled up "definition of reverse discrimination" and then I saw clearly the disparity between our statements.

See, I agree that "reverse racism" is an established phrase, and it has legal definitions. I just don't agree with the concept. (Which is: "Discrimination against members of a dominant or majority group, especially when resulting from policies established to correct discrimination against members of a minority or disadvantaged group." Source In fact I find the very concept to be racist.

I may change my mind when it's established that I can be reverse murdered, reverse lied to, or reverse stolen from.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
OckhamsRazorJuly 29, 2007 16:35:39


but if this is a sensitive subject I Shall leave it alone.


Not a sensitive subject...just a pet peeve. I believe discrimination is discrimination. I would be interested in hearing how the definition of "reverse discrimination" differs from that of "discrimination." Maybe I missed something.

Edit: After I posted this, I googled up "definition of reverse discrimination" and then I saw clearly the disparity between our statements.

See, I agree that "reverse racism" is an established phrase, and it has legal definitions. I just don't agree with the concept. (Which is: "Discrimination against members of a dominant or majority group, especially when resulting from policies established to correct discrimination against members of a minority or disadvantaged group." Source In fact I find the very concept to be racist.

I may change my mind when it's established that I can be reverse murdered, reverse lied to, or reverse stolen from.


I understand the point you make, from now on I will call it what it really is. Discrimination and racism.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
OckhamsRazorJuly 29, 2007 16:27:46


Time for the Axis child to insert her two cents.


Ladies and gentlemen...Mrs. Razor.


for real? She is Mrs. Ock?
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
for real? She is Mrs. Ock?


Hard to believe when she "gave concise, well structured statements of facts {to you} without taking anyone to task, nor putting anyone down for how they might think and feel," which I do fairly often? (Well, actually I don't - I just write in such a way as to separate readers into two or more groups - usually just two - those that want to discuss/dig down a bit and those that want to be Joe Cool User/work with just the surface of everything. I believe I may blog on that later in an attempt to explain it, but for now, it's work time again *booooo*)
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Kingbee can talk about all the 'polish american' or 'croatian' clubs he wants to, but he's being intellectually dishonest when he does.


hardly. you posed a question, i answered it.

since you mention it, so far this thread contains plenty of intellectual flaws (whether one or more qualify as deliberate dishonesty or accidental negligence, overstatement, etc. is up for discussion i guess).

examples:

a.
all the REAL Africans I meet are really not happy about the term "African-American" because there is NOTHING African about African Americans.


)I was talking to a Ghanaian last time I was in Ghana. (Or was it an Angolan in Angola?...ah well, matters not). THEY don't like it (he told me) that African-Americans call themselves that. They don't want that association because, as he told me, 'those black people know nothing at all of Africa and tend to give real Africans a bad name'


it may be true that all the real africans you've met share exactly the same sentiment or opinion on any subject. so what? do any of them claim to speak for an entire continent or even their own nation? their own village or tribe? or is it only you?

even if the answer to all of the above was a resounding yes, why would it matter? you're talking about foreigners' opinions no? are you saying americans should concern themselves with what the rest of the world may think?

b.
What I usually observe is that it is a statement of resentment that won't die, and, in fact, a statement that some black folks don't WANT that resentment to die


they put us in the "hood." The berthing was mostly *cough* "Afro-americans" *cough* who were probably the most rude and obnoxious people I have ever seen. Up late at night until the wee hours of the morning shouting expletives at the top of their lungs while playing Xbox or watching porn while other people had the audacity to try and sleep


The BET Block Party was already in full force...actually, it had never stopped since the moment we arrived


HUMANS that behave like animals


the 'hood'? bet? animals?

Mari was concerned that the whole thing would be taken as some white supremicist statement on my part


well...at least she's able to see you a lil more clearly than you do yourself.

c.
if you mention that more qualified whites are routinely passed over in favor of affirmative action, a practice that has cost untold numbers of lives,


untold as in so many they can't be counted? or there are no statistics to support this but it sounds significant?

Careers, reputations, and lives have been ruined by a slip of the tongue, and you don't even have to go as far as uttering the dreaded N word to suffer these consequences.

Ask Don Imus. Bill Bennett. Trent Lott. Or, or, or...


it wasn't a slip of the tongue in imus' case. trent lott said pretty much the same thing when addressing the citizen's council (to which he belongs) so it can hardly be considered a slip of the tongue. bennett suffered no damage (you can bet on it).

The word retains it's power PRECISELY because it's ok for blacks to use, but catastrophic when uttered by whites


both races use the word as we both know. only one uses it hatefully.

if it were up to me, that word would never be used by anyone again.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
i'm still curious about the constant partying you described. is there no discipline aboard navy ships or were their superiors derelict in their duties? are we to assume those sailors outranked you and the lil white guy? are thefts by members of the ship's company no longer considered a serious offense?
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
one more (unrelated) question.

on another thread you posted a link to your site. after reading it, i was curious enough to make my way to your index page. within seconds avg went nuts about js/payne.

what's up with that?
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
i'm still curious about the constant partying you described. is there no discipline aboard navy ships or were their superiors derelict in their duties? are we to assume those sailors outranked you and the lil white guy? are thefts by members of the ship's company no longer considered a serious offense?


The total of our number were divided into two different berthings. The one that my 8 folks were in were inhabited mostly by CS's. These people work weird hours. So I don't slight them staying up all night, because it's their day. Nor do I mind overlooking the playing of the XBox...gotta have something to do, ya know? Can't go ashore after certain hours...and there's nowhere to go on the ship. But in my experience - that of a white supremecist *chuckle* - "humans" maintain an awareness of their surroundings and are kind, understanding, and respectful of each other. In fact, it is for those exact reasons that I let them continue their party. We were the interlopers, and though it wasn't by choice, what difference does that make to them? Answer: Zero.

But I do know, that were I in their shoes, I would have said to my fellows "Hey man...we have guests, and it isn't their fault they're here. Let's keep the mayhem down to a dull roar." This thought clearly never crossed anyone's mind. And I'm sorry to tell you the objective facts, but this is what they are. They aren't opinions, they aren't supposed to be mean, discriminatory, or stereotypical...they're just plain facts. the OTHER berthing, full of mostly whites, was very quiet...even in the day when they were up. MY berthing was full of blacks, and they were rowdy and obnoxious. I KNOW you want to use my saying this as another excuse to cast aspersions of white supremacy in my direction, but you have to understand...I really don't really care about being PC. I'm just reporting facts. Those are facts. The white people were respectful, the black people were not. The end, period, QFT. If YOU want to make a conclusion out of that...go ahead. I'm just reporting the news. In fact, I guess you DID make a conclusion out of it:

Mari was concerned that the whole thing would be taken as some white supremicist statement on my part


well...at least she's able to see you a lil more clearly than you do yourself.


She could probably better explain my mind than I can. One of the first things she'd probably tell you is that if you called me a white supremicist while she was around, that you'd probably oughta do so while running full speed in the other direction. All Japanese know karate, you know? (damn, a joke...) But good for you. You should congratulate yourself on establishing that you are far more supreme than a white supremicist. Well done. Here's your mirror...stand over there.

Regarding ranks and discipline, I don't know if they outranked the little white guy, but they didn't outrank me. But as I said, we were the intruders into their daily lives, and consider this: suppose I say something. We then have to leave the ship to go do gigs and are gone for hours. You'll just have to take my word for it that all kinds of things that make life harder can happen in an instant. Do I risk my shipmates' well being? My towel, the one I would use to dry off after taking a shower, walked in the very first hours I was there - the reason? I smiled on a sunny day, I guess. It was in my rack where it was supposed to be. Bought a new one in town for 20 Euro - about 27 bucks. Funny the little white guy seemed to have had his taken, too. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

As far as 'is theft not still a serious offense,' well hell yeah, but how do you prove someone stole something in a berthing full of 100 people while you weren't there to witness it? Seriously dude, I don't mean to offend, but did you think out these questions at all? Don't react...let me explain. They seem like the questions of someone that reacts to certain subjects with "company lines" from certain camps, and honestly...I've never taken you for that kind of guy - I thought you thought for yourself, so I find it a little surprising. And to be honest, which I try to remain, a little disappointing.

on another thread you posted a link to your site. after reading it, i was curious enough to make my way to your index page. within seconds avg went nuts about js/payne.


Just from the index? I have no earthly idea. What is js/payne? I use AGV anti-virus religiously...is that what went nuts or was it a malware, etc...blocker? I can't imagine what of mine would be a problem. Give me more info so I can lock it down.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
MM sits back quietly and watches a clash of the titans, {ock and kingbee} both of whom are way over my head education wise and ability to express themselves in words wise.

carry on gentlemen!
Oh Yeh congrats on managing to marry such an articulate woman ock! visa versa!

MM
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm more interested in finding out if there's anything malignant on my index page. My own AVG revealed nothing.

Mari is more wonderfully bright and beautiful than she would ever credit herself. Hahaha...but she's got a mean streak, too. I'm about to write something about my way of blogging, and the reasons for it, and maybe some insight into the games I play here. I'm going to take my time with it, and try to be clear and not inciteful. People that have read some of my more inflammatory stuff should notice a big difference in the tone. The difference is deliberate. The deliberateness is the nature of the post. Stay tuned.