The Return of Prayer in Schools

I think for that to happen our current system of government will have collapsed. I do not believe this could happen under our current constitution. I can't imagine that the majority of American's will think this is okay and silently let it happen. Look at the "official language" debate and tell me that the U.S. citizens will sit by and allow these things to happen. While I will never say never, this is an unlikely and far off possibility.

it is already happening

the schools are allowing Muslims to use a room for prayer. Christians don't get that option.

the schools are putting in foot baths for said prayers. they say anyone can use the baths, but lets see what happens when a non Muslim(Jew) uses these foot baths

Interesting thoughts Kupe, but before I bow to Allah, someone will have to kill me.

"Interesting thoughts Kupe, but before I bow to Allah, someone will have to kill me."

Depending on your vision of the afterlife, that may be easy or difficult. A Muslim would say that you would meet Allah at the end...whereas, our people, not so much.

I am glad that you posted here, MM. As a fellow Jew, you know that for much of our history our people lived under the Muslims more easily than under the Christians. For example, during the Inquisition in Spain, Jews fled to and were welcomed by the Turks. We have seen both sides of the coin, hatred and acceptance, during our history.

So, I pose the question, why should the Quran belong less in schools than the Bible?

it shouldn't

but why should it belong more in schools than the bible.

headline today on foxnews. i didn't hear the story. but a girl was suspended for having a religion ring on her finger.

So, I pose the question, why should the Quran belong less in schools than the Bible?

Lots of reasons. Here's just a few.

1. Our Founding Fathers' belief system was routed in the biblical Judean Christian Faith, not the Muslim Faith.

2. The Quran's teaching is to kill and wipe out all that are non-Muslim (infidels) so why would we go there?

3. Many of our old historic buildings and monuments in and around our capitol have either scriptures or the10 Commandments etched on them. Nothing from the Quran will you see. Even the United Nations Building in NY has a scripture verse on it...I'm thinking it's from Isaiah.

4. Jefferson read and studied the Quran for the sole purpose in understanding the mind of the enemy solely to defeat them in the Battle of Tripoli. He didn't read it because he thought it was a good addition to the bible.

5. The Quran is more than represented in many Arab countries. Do we need another? Look at those countries closely. Is that where we want to go?

Right now the bible is having a hard time being read or even laying on a desk in a school so why are we even thinking of bringing in the Quran? In one college recently the ACLU was suing the school for teaching a comparative religion class using the bible as it's main text. Absurd.

our people lived under the Muslims more easily than under the Christians.

The Jews have had it hard from every which way. But remember many Christians hid the Jews during WWII at the expense of their own lives. These are the true Christians. One who is willing to give his life for another. Many Christians died in those concentration camps.. Detriech Bonhoffer and Corrie Ten Boom are just a couple that come to mind out of many who suffered in the camps for helping the Jews.

Rebuttal. point by point:

1- Your forefathers are not necessarily the same as mine, but that aside, they very carefully built in separation of Church and State.

2- The Bible, referring to the Old Testament, is about as blood thirsty a book as you will find. For example, think about what it says regarding the Amalekites, "Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam. 15:2-3). We could go on and on.

3- Many of the Ten Commandments monuments were put up to commercialize Cecel B. Demille's movie. We already worship Hollywood, we don't need anymore.

4- Right.....moving right along.

5- At the current rate of population growth, we will have a Muslim plurality sometime in the next century. That was the whole point of the article. Which was a satire. ("Be careful what you pray for...") I think I need to be less subtle.

But...you have advocated prayer in the classroom, teaching abstinence, etc. Would you be okay with teaching those "values" in the context of Islam?

Oskar Schindler, who is buried in a Christian cemetery in Jeruslam, who saved thousands of Jews by himself, is a shining example of how good Humanity can be. (I strongly recommend "Schindler's LIst" as a book and movie.) Oskar Schindler was born a Roman Catholic.

As was Hitler. In Mein Kampf he wrote, "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews . . . The work that Christ started but could not finish, I--Adolf Hitler--will conclude."

Both were taught lessons in school. What they took from those lessons was very different.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran Minister, certainly formed a lot of his opinions when he lived in New York, studying at Union Theological Seminary and hanging out in Harlem. Rock on for pointing out Corrie Ten Boom. My class used to read The Hiding Place.

Just FYI on the Decalogues "One legacy of the movie are scores of public displays or monuments of the Ten Commandments that DeMille paid to be erected around the country as a publicity stunt. Known as decalogues, the displays were set up by the group Fraternal Order of Eagles, sometimes in or near government buildings."

The Fraternal Order of Eagles was an all-white (until the late 1960's) group of movie theater owners that would later expand to include thousands.

Regardless, it was promotional stunt.

I personally don't care who prays where. I don't see the problem. It's when it becomes part of the educational system that it becomes a problem. Either they teach all forms of religion or they teach none. But there are exceptions, when a class has religion as part of the curriculum for example history, then it's should not be about teaching the religion but about it's involvement in the history.

Kupe answered this one pretty well, but it helps sometimes to remember that Islam is rooted in the Judeo-Christian ethical and belief systems. Moses, Abraham, Mary and Jesus have a place in Islam too, so really Islam couldn't be considered to be entirely against the founding fathers' beliefs, just one that pares off with the 'Jesus wasn't divine' Christians and develops from there.

I want to thank everyone for their comments, this was a pretty interesting debate. As I commented before, this article was written with a satirical mindset. I wanted to you think about what prayer in school really means. Advocates of school prayer, usually Christians in this country, usually don't see a problem with non-Christian kids sitting quietly through their prayers. But put the shoe on the other foot....is that different?

Imagine your son or daughter being sent home because they forgot their prayer mat. Or saying "Mommy, why can't we be Muslim like everyone else?" "Dad, when do we celebrate Eid?"

the schools are allowing Muslims to use a room for prayer. Christians don't get that option.

That is no different than how we treat any minority in the US.  How many "black" related events are there versus just "white" (can you imagine a "White History Month"?). When I studied History in school, it covered History- white, black, native American, you name it.  But, now they have "History" and "Black History".  I see the religious changes as no different- we are causing segregation by over compensating for minorities.

My view is: we live in America.  America is a Democracy (I know that's becoming debatable, but at least that is what we are supposed to be).  In a democracy, majority rules.  If the majority of the US is Christian, than Christianity remains as the default religion.  I'm not Christian, but it doesn't bug me to know that the majority of the US is, and I sure as heck won't say that the majority religion shouldn't be represented.

I think I need to be less subtle.

I thought you should have learned that by now

then where are the Jewish prayer rooms.

where are the other accommodations for the Jewish religion

Great article, Kupe-- and interesting debate!

It's no different than what I pointed out, though- why do we have "Black History Month" but not "Native American History Month" or "Hispanic History Month"?  There is a ""National American Indian Heritage Month", but have you ever seen any news about it or even ever heard about it before?

while you're able to provide a seemingly endless litany of diary entries, observations, excerpts from letters, etc. all attributed to individuals who authored or executed the constitution, you've continually avoided a question i've directed to you at least 5 times in less than a month: why and how did they manage to create such an excellent constitution which they clearly intended to be the basis of our american government with no mention whatsoever of any god--much less the judeo (not judean) christian (by which you really mean christian christian) faith???



will you also ignore this once more? i provided it as rebuttal (reply 16) when you made the same baseless claim in your 'make like a tree...' diatribe:

adorning the north and south walls (of the us surpreme court building) are friezes depicting 18 great lawgivers: menes, hammurabi, solomon, lycurgus, solon, draco, confucius and octavian on the south wall; justinian, mohammed, charlemagne, king john, louis IX, hugo grotius, sir william blackstone, john marshall and napoleon on the north wall.

per the office of the curator of the supreme court of the united states, those 18 individuals were deliberately chosen to represent secular law:

Weinman's training emphasized a correlation between the sculptural subject and the function of the building and, because of this, [architect Cass] Gilbert relied on him to choose the subjects and figures that best reflected the function of the Supreme Court building. Faithful to classical sources, Weinman designed for the Courtroom friezes a procession of "great lawgivers of history," from many civilizations, to portray the development of secular law.

Note that Moses is not given any special emphasis in this depiction: his figure is not larger than the others, nor does it appear in a dominant position. Also, the writing on the tablet carried by Moses in this frieze includes portions of commandments 6 through 10 (in Hebrew), specifically chosen because they are not inherently religious. (Commandments 6 through 10 proscribe murder, adultery, theft, perjury, and covetousness.)

including a legal system based on god-given law...sharia.

honor thy mother and father is religious?

provide civil or criminal statues requiring mother/father honoring.

show me where it is religious

It seems to be a common action for the average person to think something is OK till they are the ones being questioned or caught in the middle. Our own laws, rules and regulations are beginning to choke us when we create, pass them but never consider the long term results.

What do you mean?

i mean the first commandment or second honor thy father and mother. is something ever civilization on the planet has always held. whether it is a law or not. i was told to show where it was a law. and i said show me where it is religious

But so is do not steal, do not murder, do not commit adultery and they are all part of the ten commandments just like honoring thy mother and father. Just because it's universal does not make it religion less.

this is what i am talking about

honor mother and father belongs with these if we are talking about not inherently religious