Kingbee posts:


I disagree Kingbee.

Speaking as a Catholic; in all things, including government, we are to have but one Master---Christ. If there is a conflict, God comes before Ceasar. No country has rights against God. It's better to die keeping God's laws than to live breaking them. If a man is faithful to God, there is some hope of his being faithful to lesser social and civic duties.

That's just it, DrGuy, the only ones who have defined the one true GOd are Christians (as well as Jews and Muslims i.e. all 3 are monotheistic religions). Although knowledge of God is beyond human understanding, God, the Author of natural and supernatural truth, has revealed Himself to mankind. Right reason affirms and faith cements what God's revelation teaches. The Christian religion is a voluntary subjection of man in which he renders to the one true God worship and reverence that is His by right.





Seriously, is this true? I never knew this. Please tell me all about their one true God of the Hindu and Buddhist religions.

KFC POSTS:

KFC,

What on earth do you mean by this?

Just a side note here.....how many know......

That John Adams died on the same day as Thomas Jefferson? They both died on July 4th 50 years after the Declaration of Independence. People at the time saw it as the clearest sign imaginable that the hand of God was involved with the destiny of the United States.......I don't blame them. If I lived at the time, I'm sure I'd be thinking the same thing.

These two men were very instrumental in getting the Declaration of Independence ratified. Jefferson, as many know actually wrote it and Adams more than anyone got the Continental Congress to vote for the Declaration. Keep in mind only about a third of the country supported the Revolution. But Adams got the Congress to vote for the Declaration and many wrote about it afterwards.

I can see by reading the replies that we are divided here. Even so, I appreciate all your answers and have enjoyed seeing where we all stand. It's been an interesting discussion for sure. That's a good thing.

I agree, it has been quite enlightening and entertaining.

Hinduism, Buddhism, and Wiccanism is based on the moral standards of -----------(you fill in the blank). [/quote]

Calling on MasonM to fill in the blank.

After all, you have said that Christians (like me) who imply that the moral standards of other religions are somehow inferior is insulting.

What on earth do you mean by this?

all I meant was not one founding father was Catholic and there were problems between the Protestants and the Catholics stemming from years of history. You know this. If they had trouble with the Catholic faith, how on earth would they feel about a Hindu with their polytheistic thinking praying in the Senate? I don't think they would take this well. Many of the signers (if not half) were trained seminariains.

Please tell me all about their one true God of the Hindu and Buddhist religions.

ha! Yes, I'd like to know this as well.

Jesus said he was "the way, truth and life." I believe him. So too did the founding fathers. I don't care if anyone wants to bow, pray, worship or prostrate themselves before hundreds of "other" gods. I would support their right to do so. I just don't think we should be having a representative of polytheism praying before the US Senate anymore than I would expect that I would be invited to pray before the Muslim Government in Pakistan. Call me intolerant if you wish. I won't turn my back on what this country was founded on all for the sake of tolerance and relativism.

As I said, I cannot speak of Buddhist, and only speak of what I have learned of Hindus. Yet in the latter, they speak of their one true God. Based upon history (disputed as it may be), the origins of their God (the 3 demigods being a way to the one god that is never named) started around the same time, and in the same place as the Judaic God (the one who is not named). I was not there, so I can only postulate, that perhaps they were speaking of the same God (who is not named), and that through the interpretation of the falible article (man), they grew into separate religions.

My theory is not based upon any great theological dissertation. just an examination of the similarities of the roots of the 2 religions (and again, since I know virtually nothing of Buddhism I cannot speak to it other than to see ssome commonality) and to the ultimate truth that even the Christian religion insinuates we cannot know, only assume.

To dismiss a religion because it does not conform to ours based upon our prejudices smacks me as being arrogant and assuming a god like omnipotence in our faith that even our religion says we do not have. We know many things, we do not know all. And even Jesus, while giving us some facts and leads, did not give us omnipotence in any regards to his father, our God, or (by man) our religion.

That is incorrect. WHile Catholics were indeed the pariahs of the time, Maryland was founded by one for Catholics, and the founding fathers were sensitive to the fact that had they ostracized Catholics, then a keystone state (Not Penn, as it was founded by Quakers - another heretical faith), would not have joined.

Dr.Guy posts: In what Standard?

Lula posts:



Now, since MasonM and DrGuy brought up Muhammed, I'll add Islam to the mix asking is Islam equal to Christianity?





In answer to my own question I would say that none of the religions named are equal to Christian religion or to its practice.

Of Islam, I offer the following:

There is but one God. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. God created all mankind in His image and likeness so that they may know love and serve Him and be with Him in eternity. "All" includes Muslims. Jesus died on the Cross for all mankind.

Muhammad was an evil heretic. The followers of Muhammad's Koranic Islam read his words and imitate his actions which leads to an expression of faith (violence and bloodshed) quite different from Christianity's expression of faith. Islam is a mixture of truth and error. Muslims in their belief of Islam submit to God as far as believing His is the One God; He is the Creator; He is most forgiving and merciful, etc. This part is truth. All the rest---having to do with their number one camel driver Muhammad and his false Koranic teachings---is error and false doctrine.

Muslims worship the one God (they call Allah) according to the Koranic teachings of Islam, a religious attitude developed by self-named Muhammed in 610. The Muslims are a revived form Arianism at least by their denial of the Doctrine of the Trinity and of the Deity of Christ, although they acknowledge His existence.

The bigger questions that faith and right reason beckons us to ask are: Is the one God pleased with the worship of Muslims or do they worship falsely and in vain? Worship of God has everything to do with the person. Does God doesn't really care how He's worshipped? Of course He does.


Yes, there is no doubt that other religions search among shadows and images for the God who is unknown yet near since He gives life and breath and wants all men to be saved.

In their religious behavior however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: very often deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasoning, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator.

Yes, I'm aware of Maryland being founded for the Catholics, but I guess I was referring to the 56 signers of the Declaration, many of them also being involved in the Constitution and other things. Not one was Catholic. Who was the one you're referring to btw? I can't remember.

And before that I challenged you to objectively prove your supposed moral superiority and you have yet to do so and choose to instead repeat the same moronic question over and over again while completely ignoring all of my previous statements as if you don't comprehend simple English. You obviously aren't capable of understanding the simple concepts of which I wrote and are stuck on a single thought that keeps rattling around in your head.

Perhaps you should stick to debating the relative dogmatic merits of Catholic vs Protestant with KFC because you are obviously not capable of comprehension or intelligent debate beyond that.

KFC POSTS:



I own David Barton's book, Original Intent, which I highly recommend to anyone on any side of this discussion.

On page 20, he writes, "The Founders were not opposed to Catholics as individuals. This is clearly evidenced by the fact that the signer of the Declaration Charles Carroll and signers of the Constitution Thomas FitzSimmons and Daniel Carroll were Roman Catholic. In fact, there were numerous Catholic patriots and leaders in the struggle for AMerican liberty, including Commodore John Barry, General Casimer Pulaski, and General Stephen Moylan."

And here you demonstrate not only a serious lack of historical knowledge but an overwhelmingly absurd deviation from facts and objectivity and plunge headlong into the abyss of opinion and zealous bigotry.

Perhaps you should read up on the history of the Catholic church. There is a great deal of violence and bloodshed in their past "expression of faith" as you so smugly chose to phrase it.

Will you being seeing a doctor to remove that foot from your mouth or will you manage it yourself?

In case you missed it, the United States is not a theocracy. Your comparison is wanting in that very simple but all important regard.

the usa's constitutional government provides for self-government by and for 'we, the people'. ours was the first in modern western history to reject the notion that government derives its authority through divine delegation. like it or not, your civil master is your fellow citizens.

i notice neither you nor kfc has been willing to explain how the authors of the constitution accidentally neglected to mention god in the constitution.

Politics may make strange bed fellows, but in this case religion has KFC and Lulu against kingbee, Mason and DG. And that is very strange!

I own David Barton's book, Original Intent, which I highly recommend to anyone on any side of this discussion.

I want this book....it's on my A list.

This is clearly evidenced by the fact that the signer of the Declaration Charles Carroll

Charles Carroll was Catholic? Didn't know that. If that's true, and it sounds like it if Barton says so, my mistake then. I didn't know this. I'm familiar with him somewhat but didn't realize he was Catholic.

It's good to learn new things. Keeps life fresh and interesting wouldn't you say?

Strange? Perhaps. Entertaining? Definitely!

Lula posts:

DrGuy posts:

I did read the discussion and entered a remark countering Cacto's declarations.

I would just like to point out that I specifically qualified where I found no compatibility amongst Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity and that was by saying "In the area of love, worship and prayer to Almighty God."

Kingbee posts:

Didn't they leave that up to the States?

Oh, MasonM, the Catholic Church's "expression of faith" is the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds.

sooooo if we were playing poker....three of a kind beats a pair?

Where's Jythier when I need him?

Most of what I wanted to say has already been said, but I will add a few things...

I'm so glad to see that the separation of Church & State has been acknowledged. We violate this rule on a daily basis when they make people swear on the Bible. I've always wondered, what happens when an atheist swears on the Bible. Technically, to them, swearing on the Bible is as good as swearing on the new Harry Potter book right? Deciding that the Senate can only be opened by any form of religion whatsoever is not only against the first amendment as others have pointed out, but also a clear violation of this rule yet again.

The next thing that baffles me is the amount of hate & judgment people tend to have in this world. We have more than enough to be angry about and more than enough things to hate about others. I'm sometimes confused about how much quicker people are to discriminate against people who are homosexual or of a different religion, than people who take illegal drugs on a daily basis (ex. weed, I'm not knocking anyone, just trying to state a point). Furthermore, even if you are a hopeless devotee of Jesus, I'm pretty sure that Jesus would not teach you to hate.

I would also like to reacknowledge to KFC that Hinduism is not a purely polytheistic religion. There are various forms of one ultimate God but it is mainly based on A true God. In fact, it's more of a way of life because it does not teach people to hate. Lastly, even if it was a polytheistic religion, I don't really get your beef. I'm sorry to say but I think simply labelling Christianity as monotheistic and Hinduism as polytheistic and that being the whole basis for why something should be unheard of seems like somewhat of a cop out to me.