Are Embryonic Stem Cells People Too?

Where does it end?

Psalm 139:13
"You knit me together in my mother's womb."

So, God knits people together in their mother's wombs. Does he also knit them together in test tubes? I have no doubt that he CAN. But does he WANT to? Or does he want us to be able to do research on embrynoic stem cells? I don't know what God wants for us here, but I know this - once the cells are IN the womb, then God definitely starts knittin'. I don't know if I can call test tube embryos people. I can call them human, but when I shed a layer of skin, that's human too. Should I be having a ceremony for each skin cell? No, because the person - me - is still alive. So cells that are human can exist outside of being a person. How many make up a person? I don't know. But if it's in the womb, God's knitting. If it's not, it might just be some cells that happen to be around. What if... what if we make the embryonic stem cells into skin cells? Then are they worth the same as my skin cells, or are they worth more because that was the only record of that combination of DNA? I don't think I can believe it. I think they're just cells, part of humans, not actual people. But ANY bit of new baby cells in the womb needs some serious respect. In a test tube, not so much. The miracle of a test tube giving birth just doesn't have the same ring to it.
4,579 views 37 replies
Reply #1 Top
Well, I think that's the end of this discussion. Had a point, ruined it myself, my bad.
Reply #2 Top
I don't know if I can call test tube embryos people.


Tell my grandmother that...



Reply #3 Top
What, they were never in the womb?
Reply #4 Top
The issue is what to do with the embryos that remain after in-vetro fertilization. Today these embryos are destroyed by incarceration. Regardless what you call them they will not become a living human being. The issue is do we continue to just destroy the left over embryos or allow federal Funding to be used to find cures for human suffering. In BOTH cases the embryos will be destroyed. WHY should we not allow their destruction to provide help for human beings rather them just destroying them under the Bush policy?
Reply #5 Top
By the way, those 3... wicked cute. But if the embryo is never in the womb, and never has blood flowing, is it really alive?
Reply #6 Top
OMG, JJ. Those babies are PRECIOUS!!!!!

I love it! They even have the chubby little fat roll legs!

Reply #7 Top
Today these embryos are destroyed by incarceration.


Yeah, putting those embryos in the Big House for twenty-to-life is gonna finish them off . . .





PS genius - it's "incineration", not "incarceration". And you wonder why you "don't gets no respekt."
Reply #9 Top
(Citizen)SanChoninoJuly 6, 2007 19:38:39


PS genius - it's "incineration", not "incarceration". And you wonder why you "don't gets no respekt."


Joo shur it ain't incandescent?
Reply #10 Top
Embryonic Stem Cell research is a waste of time and resources. Adult Stem Cells are now being used in over 30 treatments... Ebryonic Stem Cells are being used in NONE. There is nothing Embryonic Stem Cells can do that Adult Stem Cells can't.

Ebryonic Stem Cell research is purely political.

PS: Cute Babies!
Reply #11 Top
12 comments and this is all I have to show for it. If it wasn't for those baby pictures, I'd say this thread was a total bust.
Reply #12 Top
What did you want, Jythier? I gave my acerbic, rotten and mean-spirited comment - you got my normal participation . . .
Reply #13 Top
ya, Jythier SC has a point.......lol.

Those babies are ADORABLE.

was going to respond but totally forgot what I was going to say after seeing the baby trio.

Reply #14 Top
Thanks ParaTed, almost missed your comment!

I think you're right. But gathering the adult stem cells seems to be harder for certain types of cells. Suck it up, scientists.

And SC, your acerbic, rotten and mean-spirited comment was very much appreciated! Incarceration, indeed.
Reply #15 Top
Harder to get? Every cell sucked out in liposuction, most of the tissue removed in surgery. They get adult stem cells from bone marrow, peripheral blood, blood vessels, skeletal muscle, skin, fat, and liver. Brains too, but it's a little harder to get donars for those. Those who would, don't have much. ;~D
Reply #16 Top
Today these embryos are destroyed by incarceration. Regardless what you call them they will not become a living human being


WRONG!

I have 8 embryos in 'storage'. We have just begun the process of donantion. Not to science, mind you, but another couple who want to have children and can't .

What, they were never in the womb?


Of course they were. I understand what you are saying. I do agree with you that the moment the two become one is really more the moment of life but even outside there is potential.



If it wasn't for those baby pictures, I'd say this thread was a total bust


You're welcome!

Thanks to all who said they were cute. I really need to sit down and do a six month recap. I have some good stories to tell and great photos to share.

They even have the chubby little fat roll legs!


Chloe's legs are in the picture and she is the skinny one!
Reply #17 Top
I'm getting into the part I don't understand here, which is the whole thing, so I'm just going to stop.
Reply #18 Top
I'm getting into the part I don't understand here, which is the whole thing, so I'm just going to stop.


See if this explanation helps.

It comes from a pastoral letter from the bishops of Kansas. They wrote it after voters in Missouri approved an amendment to their state constitution prohibiting the legislature from regulating or limiting research in which human embryos are created and destroyed to provide stem cells for research.

Evidently, Kansas was next in line to consider this type of amendment and the bishops wanted Catholics to know what it was about in terms of the way the amendment disregards the most fundamental human right of those who are most defenseless – their right to life.

Concerned at such a prospect, we want to offer Catholics and all people of good will in Kansas the following explanation of the issues at stake in human cloning and embryonic stem cell research. It may provide some clarity amidst the confusion.

What is a stem cell? Stem cells are primitive human cells that, when they divide, can form a variety of more specialized cells. For example, just one type of stem cell in our bone marrow works to replace all the different types of blood cells (white, red, etc.) when we need them.

Adult stem cell research.

Human stem cells hold great promise for the development of therapies to regenerate damaged organs, and to heal people who are suffering from terrible diseases. Most scientific research uses cells obtained from adult tissue, blood from the umbilical cord, and other sources that pose no moral problems. Versatile stem cells have been found in bone marrow, blood, muscle, fat, nerves, amniotic fluid, and even the pulp of baby teeth. Many successful therapies have been developed using these adult stem cells.

We Catholics applaud the vast array of scientific research that is conducted ethically and that respects the dignity of the human person. We strongly support stem cell research using adult and umbilical cord stem cells.

Embryonic stem cell research.

Some scientists, however, are interested in doing research using stem cells obtained by killing human embryos when they are about one week old. These embryos are obtained from one of two sources.

In vitro fertilization.

Embryonic stem cell research commonly involves harvesting cells from human embryos created in a laboratory by “in vitro” fertilization. The embryos created are frozen and stored for future use. For various reasons, not all the embryos are used. Some people consider these “leftover” embryos as a potential resource for scientific research. This is a morally unacceptable process on many grounds, and the cell harvesting process itself destroys the living embryo.

Human cloning.

Embryonic stem cells might also be harvested from embryos created by cloning, also known as “somatic cell nuclear transfer” (the same process used to create Dolly the sheep). In human cloning, the nucleus from an adult donor cell is inserted into a donated egg cell from which the nucleus has been removed. The inserted nucleus provides the necessary DNA for the new cell to function and divide. The resulting human embryo is allowed to grow for several days, then destroyed to obtain stem cells for experimentation.

Some would distinguish between “therapeutic” cloning and “reproductive” cloning, but the process is the same in both cases. The only difference is what is done with the new embryo created by the cloning process: implant it in a woman’s womb to attempt a live birth; or destroy it to harvest its stem cells. Thus far, however, despite many years of experimentation by scientists all over the world, all attempts to use human cloning for either “so-called” therapeutic or reproductive purposes have failed.

Serious moral problems: destruction of human life.

Some hold there is no moral problem with harvesting cells from embryos because they claim that the embryo only holds the potential for human life and is not actually human. But the human embryo is not something other than human; human stem cells can only be harvested from a human being. It is just that this human being was killed instead of allowing it to develop normally. Regardless of whether the human embryo is obtained from “in vitro” fertilization or human cloning, human life is destroyed for the sake of scientific research, in the search for (as yet purely hypothetical) medical therapies. This is a crime against life. It is never morally permissible to destroy one human life, even if it is done in the hope of benefiting other human beings. Laws intended to sanction embryonic stem cell research are immoral because they give legal protection to the violation of the most fundamental of all human rights.

Serious moral problems: pragmatism.

Embryonic stem cell research focuses on the advance of science and the potential of curing diseases, but to the detriment of human life and dignity. Some even say this is a small price to pay for the economic development of Kansas: if we do not permit and promote embryonic stem cell research, they say, we stand to lose the economic benefits promised by the biotechnology industry (a similar argument was used by proponents of slavery, who said that certain states could not survive economically without this despicable institution). Such claims are baseless, as other states and countries that ban human cloning have taken a leadership role in the development of biotechnology. The primary question is whether embryonic stem cell research can be pursued without harming another human being, and our own humanity in the process. The answer to this question is quite clearly “no.”

Some proponents also argue that if the frozen embryo is going to be killed anyway, what can be wrong with using them for the benefit of others. This line of reasoning is flawed. A death-row prisoner, a terminally ill patient, and indeed each living person will die one day, but that does not entitle another to kill human life at will for the purposes of scientific experimentation. What is more, in the case of frozen embryos, they would survive if someone had not decided to give them over to be killed for research purposes, instead of implanting them in their mother’s womb.

Serious moral problems: victimizing women.

Women, too, are victimized by the promotion of embryonic stem cell research. The process of cloning human embryos for research requires a huge number of female eggs. There is a certain amount of inconvenience, pain and substantial health risk associated with the process for harvesting eggs. For this reason, it is likely that only women driven by need (typically the poor, including ethnic minority women, students, and women from developing countries) would donate the eggs needed for experimentation. Advance in research and finding cures for disease would be achieved at the expense not only of human beings at their earliest stage of development, but also of women in desperate circumstances.

Conclusion.

Each of us was once an embryo. This affirmation is based on a clear grasp of the most basic biology, not on religious faith. Once human life begins (which always occurs at fertilization, or at an event that mimics fertilization, like cloning), this new living being is a member of the human race who is worthy of respect and protection from harm threatened by embryonic stem cell research. The human embryo has such a claim on all of us.

As Catholics, our opposition to embryonic stem cell research is also confirmed and strengthened by our faith. We believe that God became man in the womb of the Virgin Mary, going through all the stages of prenatal human development. This religious truth elevates the dignity of human nature above that of even the angels and sanctifies human life from its beginning at conception to natural death. And if that were not enough, the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross communicates the height and depth, the length and breadth of the love God has for each of us. Jesus, the Son of God, gave himself up to death, shedding his last drop of blood, because each individual human life created by God is of incalculable worth.

How can we value so little what God values so much?

Joseph F. Naumann, Archbishop of Kansas City in Kansas

Ronald M. Gilmore, Bishop of Dodge City

Paul S. Coakley, Bishop of Salina

Michael O. Jackels, Bishop of Wichita


Reply #19 Top
When they harvest the embryonic stem cells they can't even be seen with the naked eye. They are literally microscopic, only about 150 cells. They are about 1/200th of an inch. I will say that they are living things but I don't think they are a baby. At this stage, they aren't even an embryo,they are a pre-embryo. I think they need to cook for nine more months to be considered a baby. I think there is a difference between potential human life and an actual living, breathing human baby.

And there are huge differences between adult stem cells and embryonic stem cells, what they can accomplish, how easily and how many can be harvested. Embryonic stem cells can be changed into any kind of cells. Adult stem cells remain cells from whatever body part they are retrieved from. They cannot retrieve adult stem cells from all organs. And no there have not be any approved treatments derived from HeSC's but there are many great developments that could help millions of humans suffering from Alzheimers, MS, Parkinsons, diabetes etc. They have results mainly from working with animals and have to translate those successes to human treatments.



Reply #20 Top
I'm pro-life and those images still make me feel guilty for even living on a planet that allows that to happen.

Why does it destroy the embryos to take stem cells from them?
Reply #21 Top
By the way, those 3... wicked cute.


OMG, JJ. Those babies are PRECIOUS!!!!!


PS: Cute Babies!



The PUBLIC has spoken, JJ!

I have a fever and the prescription is TRIPLETS!

We need pics...of course, we know you're incredibly busy, but I know I'm not the only one wanting to know how those babies are doing!
Reply #22 Top
Hey L.W...for the sake of anyone that stumbles into this thread, can you make those images links or something?

I'm sure most readers would rather skip over those pictures....as pertinent to the discussion as they may be.

Thanks!
Reply #23 Top
LW,

Thanks for the reality check in post # 23.
Reply #24 Top
There's a reason most readers would want to skip over those pictures, which is pretty much the reason I didn't delete the post outright myself - because it's important to know what is going on. I mean, look at that. Some people think that's a good idea. America has ELECTED people who believe that's a good idea. Think about that, and look at those pictures.
Reply #25 Top

 

Hey L.W...for the sake of anyone that stumbles into this thread, can you make those images links or something?

I'm sure most readers would rather skip over those pictures....as pertinent to the discussion as they may be.


Reply By: JythierPosted: Sunday, July 08, 2007
There's a reason most readers would want to skip over those pictures, which is pretty much the reason I didn't delete the post outright myself - because it's important to know what is going on.

Then you need to mark this as adult content.