Rev 3:7-13

Philadelphia-The Church Of Brotherly Love

Now here in the message to the sixth of seven churches we find no condemnation but only commendation. It's the church of brotherly love; Philadelphia. Here's the text surrounding it.

“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8“I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9“Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11“Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. 13“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”


The City of Philadelphia in Asia Minor was founded in 180 BC by two brothers who had great love for each other. This city was one of many earthquakes, tremors and rumblings. Many lived outside the city in huts in fear. Along with the earthquakes a fine silt was produced that covered the valley making it fertile for the grapes and wine production was premium.

This city was set on a series of roads to connect east with west. The Greeks did this intentionally as to spread the Greek language far and wide. Philadelphia was called a gateway to the East. It was situated where the borders of Mysia, Lydia and Phrygia met. It was founded with the deliberate intention that it might be a missionary of Greeek culture and language to Lydia and Phrygia. It did so well that by 19 AD the Lydians had forgotten their own language and were all but Greeks.

So we see at the start of the letter Jesus is called Holy (absolute perfection). In the OT only God was called Holy. In the gospels even the demons would cry out "Holy One of God" to Jesus in recognition of his holiness. He's also called True. He is the genuine one in a culture which worshipped many gods. This is a reminder that he is the authentic one. We still worship many gods today without realizing it. Some worship the god of pleasure, some wealth and some the god of work to just name a few. We still live in a multigod society. There is nothing new under the sun.

Jesus is seen here holding the key of David. Christ, of course, came thru the Kingly line of David thru Mary and Joseph. Both came directly from the line of David. Joseph thru Solomon, David's son and successor to the throne and Mary thru Nathan, Solomon's brother.

Key to what? He's claiming absolute control and authority to the kingdom. He alone opens and shuts. Only he has the power to open the door to heaven. Look at Rev 4:1. It says:

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.

He is the door. He alone has absolute divinity, power and authority. Has the door shut yet? We see he's holding the door open for them in v8. What door is this? The door that leads to Missionary work. Philadelphia had three centuries before been given an open door to spread Greek ideas in the lands beyond and now there has come to it another great missionary opportunity, to carry to men who never knew it the message of Christ. This door is the door of oportunity to tell them who is the Holy One, who is the True One and who alone holds the key to eternity.

I believe the door here in New England is almost shut. I also believe the door is fast closing in alot of places. It certainly looks that way as we get closer and closer to the end times. Here locally we had a graduation and a local Pastor didn't even mention God in his prayer. Paul said this in 1 Cor 16:8-9

8But I will tarry in Ephesus until Pentecost. 9For a great and effective door has opened to me, and there are many adversaries

Monday night we met with a good friend visiting us from the Ukraine. He's living in Kiev. Before he went there he pastored here for over 25 years in the same church. He's 67 years old and is now a missionary to Kiev. The door is wide open there he told us. The people are coming to Christ in droves. It's not like here. Many come weeping on their knees. The very next day we got a letter from John McArthur. He wrote about Kiev having gone there years ago. He spoke of the opportunities there and how awesome it was to see people come to Christ on their knees in sorrow over their sin. He said the same thing as our missionary friend and much more. More than a coincidence? We don't think so.

Here we see a reference to the synagogue of Satan. It doesn't necessarily mean those involved are outright worshipping Satan but only doing the work of Satan so they might as well have been. At this time, the Jews were severely persecuting the new Christians. And this claim of Jesus that the Jews would be bowing at the feet of the Christian would be a complete reversal of all the Jews had expected. They were promised and had expected that all nations would bow before them in humble submission. But Jesus is saying these that are opposing the Christians are not the true Jews. Paul mentioned many tiimes that the mystery had been revealed in Christ that both Jew and Gentile would be joint heirs in Christ when he came back. It was there in the OT after all but had been hidden and now revealed in Christ. The Gentiles were now included in the redemptive plan of God.

As a church we need to look for opportunities because the days are growing shorter and the door may be shutting anyday now. We don't know how much longer the door will stay open. There are qualities of the Faithful Church spelled out here.

1. Little Strength-small in numbers so they were not a powerful force in Philadelphia. It doesn't depend on how big we are. We can be powerful with only one or two with God. God plus only one is a majority. God does the most with the least. They are not dependent on their strength but on his. This church unlike the others can track their roots to the late 1900's I was told.

2. Kept My Word-They obeyed it. They read it. They knew it. They applied it. Jesus said if you love me you'll obey me.

3. Not Denied My Name-There are various ways to deny him. It doesn't have to be just verbally. Our actions can show we don't really believe. We may say we believe in God but our actions don't match up. They are only fooling themselves. God knows. Everything we do should be in the name of Jesus. This church was all about this.

4. Kept My Name-Perseverence is a characteristic of every Christian. Christ said, And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 10:22

5. Hold Fast-A Christian will stand firm and will not give in to what the world is telling them to do. As the world moves further away from God, the gap between Christian and non Christian should grow greater as well.

Faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit. Faithfulness cannot be quickly proved but it can be proved. Many come to the faith or so it seems but then fall away never to return. Some come with a vengeance and quickly die out. Paul pointed out a few that had walked away from the ministry. It dosn't matter how one starts a race, it matters if they finish or not.

The dictionary describes faithfulness as "adhering firmly to, a loyalty or a devotion to a person, cause or idea." Marriage is an example of what what faithfulness is all about. How many times can you be unfaithful to your spouse to be considered unfaithful? How much unfaithfulness will you allow in your life? How faithful is faithful? How many Christians are dating the world? How much unfaithfulness do you have to have to be unfaithful?

37% of a local congregation go to church faithfully. What about the other 63%? Is going to church on Christmas and Easter showing faithfulness? A recent survey was done and it showed only 9% had a biblical world view. That means 91% do not live lives according to the bible. Yet 54% say they are committed to the Christian faith and 44% admit they are uncommitted Christians. What is God going to do with our lack of faithfulness to him and his word? What would we do personally if our husbands and wives had this same lack of faithfulness to the marriage bed? Can we pick and choose what he says and still be considered faithful?

His command was to follow him. His command was to deny ourselves and live for others. Can you imagine what a different place we'd be living in if we we were obedient to this command? The world tells us otherwise. It's all about ME. We push and shove and do whatever it takes to put ME at the top. This isn't from God. This is not what he wants for us. We have become unfaithful as a society. We need to examine ourselves. We are fast becoming a totally unfaithful generation. The children always pay the price for unfaithfulness. How can we encourage our kids to be faithful when we are not? It's going to get worse.

In v10 he says he will keep us from the test that will come over the whole world. The word "dwell" means all those that abide or call earth their home. They are called earth dwellers. For Christians our home is not earth but heaven. We are strangers here or are supposed to be. If we are too comfortable here, we may be in for a problem later.

There are some that think we are going thru the world wide tribulation and somehow God will protect us thru it. Then there are others like me who believe that God will take us out of it. Enoch in the OT is a picture of the rapture. We need to look at the wording here. The word "Keep" is "Tereo ek" and means "to keep from or keep away from."

We see that our faithfulness will be rewarded. As overcomers we are victors. We see at least six rewards here.

1. Bow down before you-The enemies of Christ will recognize us with Christ and they that once persecuted us will be made to bow down before us...this comes from Isaiah 45:14
2. A crown of faithfulness will be given to you
3. Pillar-you will be strong, secure unlike the city they lived in at this time that was so shaky and unreliable
4. Name of God-you will have the name of God on you as you will be claimed by him
5. Name of God's City-this denotes citizenship
6. Name of Jesus-his character will be our character as well

Consider Your Faithfulness
1. Your heart, your mind and your soul
2. Examine Yourself
3. Encourage others
4. Look for open doors

Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, Col 4:2-3



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Reply #1 Top
KFC WRITES:
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,


KFC WRITES:
The City of Philadelphia in Asia Minor was founded in 180 BC by two brothers who had great love for each other. This city was one of many earthquakes, tremors and rumblings. Many lived outside the city in huts in fear. Along with the earthquakes a fine silt was produced that covered the valley making it fertile for the grapes and wine production was premium.

This city was set on a series of roads to connect east with west. The Greeks did this intentionally as to spread the Greek language far and wide. Philadelphia was called a gateway to the East. It was situated where the borders of Mysia, Lydia and Phrygia met. It was founded with the deliberate intention that it might be a missionary of Greeek culture and language to Lydia and Phrygia. It did so well that by 19 AD the Lydians had forgotten their own language and were all but Greeks.


Just to add a bit to what you've written.

Philadelphia is a province of Lydia about 25 miles south east of Sardis. Evidently, it’s geographical location made it a gateway to all of Phrygia. Size wise, Philadelphia was small compared to its neighboring cities therefore, the Christian community wasn’t large. Evidently it was under attack from outside but excellent in spirit and order within. Like the Christians in Smyrna the Lord expresses great praise for them. As in Smyrna, the distress seems to have been caused by the hostility of the Jews.

The main concern of the letter is to arouse confidence, to strengthen the manifest loyalty and to inspire courage for the future.
Reply #2 Top
Apoc. 3: 7b “ These things says the Holy One and the true one, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no man shuts, and shuts and no man opens”

So we see at the start of the letter Jesus is called Holy (absolute perfection). In the OT only God was called Holy. In the gospels even the demons would cry out "Holy One of God" to Jesus in recognition of his holiness. He's also called True. He is the genuine one in a culture which worshipped many gods. This is a reminder that he is the authentic one. We still worship many gods today without realizing it. Some worship the god of pleasure, some wealth and some the god of work to just name a few. We still live in a multigod society. There is nothing new under the sun.


It’s true that we worship other gods. How about man worshipping himself arrogantly thinking himself so sufficient so capable? We are seeing a new and I think more dangerous wave of atheism that we as Christians must defend against.

The titles given to Jesus in this letter clearly indicate His Divinity. “The Holy One” is reference to Yahweh in the OT, and “the true one” is also used by St. John in his Gospel, 1:9; 4:23; 7:28; 15:1; and 17:3. It conveys the complete reliability and faithfulness of the Lord with regard to His promises. Also, in the fifth seal-vision, 6:10, of the martyrs, God is called “holy and true” which reveal His divine essence.

He who has the key of David” This testifies to His Messiahship. A verse from Is. 22:22 which prophecies that Eliacim would receive the office of being in charge of the royal palace is here interpreted Messianically and the house of David is made a symbol of the Messianic kingdom.

Scripture doesn’t tell us much about the lineage's of the Blessed Mother Mary or of St.Joseph. Blessed Mary’s mother was St.Ann and father was St.Joachim.

Who has the key? Our Lord also used this metaphor when He confirmed St.Peter in the primacy, St.Matt. 16:19, and when He passed on His powers to the college of Apostles. 18:18.

He who opens and no man shuts, and shuts and no man opens” Jesus alone decides who is accepted into heaven of the final time, or who remains excluded.
Reply #3 Top
Apoc. 3: 8 “ I know your works. Behold, I have given before you a door opened, which no man can shut: for you have but little strength (power), and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.”

Here the fidelity of these few Christians of the Philadelphia Church is praised despite their limitations. When it says that despite their weakness they have not denied Christ’s name, this implies that the strength which enables them to win victory is something given by God, who often acts and triumphs amidst our weakness and shortcomings. As a reward they are given an open door which no enemy can shut---which is an assurance of evangelical success despite opposition. They have applied their strength of their living faith openly for missionary purposes.


This is the same which we are to be doing now and by His grace, all things are possible, which when you think about it is simply amazing. St.Paul says as much to the faithful of Corinth.

Consider your vocation, brethren; that there are not many wise according to worldly standards, not many powerful, not many of noble birth, but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak to confound the strong. God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human should glory in His sight.” 1Cor.1:26-29.
Reply #4 Top
Apoc. 3: 9 “ Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, those who say they are Jews and are not, but lie. Behold, I will make them come and worship before your feet, and they shall know that I have loved you.”


Christ again refers to “the synagogue of Satan”. This is the Jewish persecution of the Church and Christ promises to make these persecutors of His Church “learn that I have loved you.” This anticipates the major themes of the Book of the Apocalypse. Christ wants it to be clear to all the world that from this time forward, He loves His Church as His chosen people. In Galatians and Hebrews we find the one major reason the Temple had to be destroyed was to clear up latent confusion over where one met God, in the Temple or in the Church.


He will convince those that now the Christians are the true “Israel of God” whom He has lovingly adopted in His Son. The prophetic promise of the homage of heathens to Israel Is. 45:14; 49:23; 60:14, will now also be fulfilled in that the first chosen people, who has lost its election through its own fault, will show this honor to the new people of the New and Everlasting Covenant of God.

Apoc. 3: 10- 13 “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 “Behold, I come quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one take your crown. 12 “He that shall overcome, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more; And I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. 13“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

V. 10, Our Lord wishes to reward their fidelity in keeping the faith, and shut them to the powers of persecution. That is, He will see to it that those Christians will stand the test and will suffer no losses through apostasy.


V. 12, To those that shall overcome by remaining faithful to Christ, He promises to write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and My own new name. Now, St.John anticipates the “New Jerusalem” and is preparing us for it which we will see in its full manifestation at the very end of the visions. He alludes to the writing of the name of God on the conqueror, which is preparing us for the mark of God that will take center stage in opposotion to the famous mark of the Beast.

When all is over, the strife and the victory, the conquering Church will be the pillar in the Temple, that is it will have a place of honor. Gal. 2:9.
Reply #5 Top
He who has the key of David” This testifies to His Messiahship. A verse from Is. 22:22 which prophecies that Eliacim would receive the office of being in charge of the royal palace is here interpreted Messianically and the house of David is made a symbol of the Messianic kingdom.


very good Lula. I was going to put this verse in but it's already long enough and I'm trying to be as brief as I can so you can get the gist of it. But yes, this verse is appropriate.

Scripture doesn’t tell us much about the lineage's of the Blessed Mother Mary or of St.Joseph. Blessed Mary’s mother was St.Ann and father was St.Joachim


I believe this is because the lineage of Jesus is what's important, not Mary. We see Mary's side in Luke and Joseph's in Matthew. Jesus pedigree was never an issue to the Jews. He met the requirements to be the Messiah. They just didn't accept he could be the one.

Who has the key? Our Lord also used this metaphor when He confirmed St.Peter in the primacy, St.Matt. 16:19, and when He passed on His powers to the college of Apostles. 18:18.


I think it's quite clear it's Jesus who holds the keys. You see that here and in Chap 1 for a reason. It's no Peter and it's not his successors. It's Christ.

The prophetic promise of the homage of heathens to Israel Is. 45:14; 49:23; 60:14, will now also be fulfilled in that the first chosen people, who has lost its election through its own fault, will show this honor to the new people of the New and Everlasting Covenant of God.


this comes under anti-semetic thought Lula and one I disagree with. They have not lost their election. God is not done with the Jews. They have been blinded for a time and he will turn back to them. God did not replace the Jews with us Christians. Because of their unbelief, they are being disciplined and we are allowed to come in until the "fullness of the gentiles" comes in. Then he turns back to them. Jeremiah 31 (I've brought up a ton) is a very good read to show he's not done with them. Not to mention Paul speaking on this in Romans at great length.



Reply #6 Top
LULA POSTS:
The prophetic promise of the homage of heathens to Israel Is. 45:14; 49:23; 60:14, will now also be fulfilled in that the first chosen people, who has lost its election through its own fault, will show this honor to the new people of the New and Everlasting Covenant of God.


KFC POSTS: this comes under anti-semetic thought Lula and one I disagree with.



Uh-huh! My interpretation of Apoc.3:9 is not, no-way, no-how anti-Semitism...don't go there...fight the feeling. The term "New Jerusalem" has been introduced in this study. I think in the New Jerusalem both Jews and Gentiles (but without this distinction) are to be found within the fold..and that is a work in progress and will be until the end when Christ comes again, His Second Advent.



Jeremiah 31 (I've brought up a ton) is a very good read to show he's not done with them. Not to mention Paul speaking on this in Romans at great length.



It's been awhile...please refresh me on what your point of citing Jer. 31. He's not done with them you say. True!! He's not done with any of us for that matter.


Also, please give the Chapter and verse of Romans.



Reply #7 Top
Uh-huh! My interpretation of Apoc.3:9 is not, no-way, no-how anti-Semitism...don't go there...fight the feeling


ok, fair enough. When I saw the we are now the chosen....too bad Israel missed the boat, bad on them talk I assumed you were talking the much believed "replacement" theory. I don't believe that theory is biblical but it's out there.

t's been awhile...please refresh me on what your point of citing Jer. 31


I was referring to v35-37 which says:

"Thus says the Lord, which gives the sun for a light by day and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night which divides the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: IF those ordinances depart from before me says the Lord THEN the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus says the Lord; if heaven above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the Lord."

Last I looked those ordinances were still in their places and I'm not so sure if we even have a clue how to measure the heavens or the foundations of the earth for that matter. I don't think we have equipment handy enough for all that. So it's pretty obvious what the answer is here. Besides, just their longevity speaks volumes.

There were three unconditional covenants made by God to the Jews. One was the Abrahamic Covenant, the next was the Davidic Covenant and lastly is the New Covenant. While God did issue conditional covenants from time to time these three are UNconditional. If you go to v32 you'll see an example of a conditional covenant in which Israel broke.

Also, please give the Chapter and verse of Romans.


oh, well I know now that you know them....I was referring to Romans Chap 9-11.

"Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast his people which he foreknew. ........I say then Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid; but rather through their fall salvation is come to the Gentiles to PROVOKE them to jealousy......"Romans 11:1,2,11.



Reply #8 Top

I was referring to v35-37 which says:

"Thus says the Lord, which gives the sun for a light by day and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night which divides the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: IF those ordinances depart from before me says the Lord THEN the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus says the Lord; if heaven above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the Lord."

Last I looked those ordinances were still in their places and I'm not so sure if we even have a clue how to measure the heavens or the foundations of the earth for that matter. I don't think we have equipment handy enough for all that. So it's pretty obvious what the answer is here. Besides, just their longevity speaks volumes.


OKay, so you're saying that Jer. 31: 35-37 shows that GOd is not done with the Jews, right? To this I would agree, but would like to make a distinction that it is not all, not every Jew who was ever been born, the entire Jewish nation who up until the time of Christ's First Advent that God has chosen as His people Israel.

V. 35-37 tells us that the Lord Himself declares that His plans for His chosen people endures forever. He assures that His love and mercy towards them is immutable as the laws of nature. Nothing can change that. Insofar as God is the only source of election, His word will not fail.

There were three unconditional covenants made by God to the Jews. One was the Abrahamic Covenant, the next was the Davidic Covenant and lastly is the New Covenant. While God did issue conditional covenants from time to time these three are UNconditional. If you go to v32 you'll see an example of a conditional covenant in which Israel broke.



All of these covenants you mentioned, including the Mosaic Covenant have already been fulfilled or completed. The Old Mosaic COvenant written on stone is the one referred to in v. 32 the one Israel broke, has been fulfilled or completed in the New and Everlasting Covenant in the Blood of Jesus and written on the heart and soul of men. The Abrahamic, Davidic and Mosaic covenants have ceased to operate. This is known as biblical Judaism and that ceased when the Temple was destroyed and Jerusalem burnt in 70AD. The New COvenant or New Testament of grace is the only one operating and in effect and a "remnant" of Jews figure in the New COvenant as well, although it is a mystery.

Since Christ died and rose again, the Jews can still be saved. Thus, from the coming of CHrist until the end of time, GOd will be saving Jews. He saved them in the OT and He will save Jews in the NT and thus, "all Israel will be saved" according to the promise God gave to Abraham and David.

Jer.31 v. 33 refers to the "house of Isreal" which is the New Isreal or the New Jerusalem. Romans 11 supports this. God has already begun to fulfill His promise in the present and even in Israel's hardening against Him, He leaves open the possiblility of grace.

Of Jer. 31:31-34, the Church teaches, "At all times and in every race, God has chosen to welcome to whosoever fears Him and does what is right. God, however, does not makne men holy and save them as mere individuals, without bond, or link between one another. Rather it has pleased Him to bring men together as one people, a people that acknowledges him in truth and serves Him in holiness.

He therefore chose the race of Israel as a people unto Himself. With it He set up a covenant. Step by step He taught and prepared this people, making known in its history both Himself and the decree of His will and making it holy unto Himself. All these things, however, were done by way of preparation and as a figure of that new and perfect covenant, which was to be ratified in CHrist, and of that fuller revelation which was to be given through the Word of God Himself made flesh. 'Behold the days shall come saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...I will give the law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart, and I will be their GOd, and they shall be My people. ..For all of them shall know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord' (Jer. 31:31-34).

Christ instituted this new Covenant, the New Teatament, that is to say, in His Blood, calling together a people made up of Jew and Gentile, making them one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit."


Reply #9 Top
To this I would agree, but would like to make a distinction that it is not all, not every Jew who was ever been born, the entire Jewish nation who up until the time of Christ's First Advent that God has chosen as His people Israel.


yes, would agree with you. But as a Nation they are going to be saved. He's holding them together even now. Look at all the other nations no longer. They have all gone or been assimilated into other cultures. Not Israel even tho they have had no country for 2,000 years. That's amazing.

The Covenants were for certain times and purpose with each better than the one before it. When God is ready, the door to the Gentiles will be shut and he will reopen the door to the Jews. I think we're starting to see the doors being shut all over the place including here. While I don't think any door is completely shut, it does seem to be getting close. When that time comes, it's too late. Think about the parable with the 10 virgins. When the bridggroom came he shut the door and it was too late for the other 5 who were not ready. That's how it's going to be.

That's why it's so urgent for us to continue as long as we have breath to witness to any that have ears to hear.

Reply #10 Top
When God is ready, the door to the Gentiles will be shut and he will reopen the door to the Jews.


Are you speaking allegorically or is there Biblical context behind your saying this? I never heard this before.

The Gentiles are all those people other than Jews, right?

Right now, in the New Covenant of grace, the door is wide open for all to become children of God and heirs to His kingdom of Heaven. The time is now for anyone who wants to follow St.John the Baptist's challenge to make straight his path.

Furthermore, I always understood the doors would be open so to speak until the last day of Final Judgment. That's the only time it's too late for us to be considering which side of the fence we want to spend eternity.

KFC POSTS:
But as a Nation they are going to be saved. He's holding them together even now. Look at all the other nations no longer. They have all gone or been assimilated into other cultures. Not Israel even tho they have had no country for 2,000 years. That's amazing.


I don't see this as you do. When I see the word "nation" in Scripture I interprate that as "people". You see that as nation-state which is fine in the purely political realm. Isreal, as a nation-state, being saved wholesale, un huh, no, I just don't see that in Scripture.

This is a variant of Protestant Zionism, something right out of Hal LIndsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth.
Reply #11 Top

Are you speaking allegorically or is there Biblical context behind your saying this? I never heard this before


no, I'm speaking literally. Jesus said himself in Luke 21:

"......Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." v24B

Paul said in Romans 11:25:

"For I would not brethren that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Israel's blindness is partial and temporary until the fulness of the Gentiles is completed. God seems to have a number or time in mind for this. There will come a day that the Jews will be coming to Christ and the Gentiles will not, sort of like the opposite of what we are seeing today. There is an organization called Jews for Jesus that are very active in getting the Jews to acknowledge Christ as their Savior even now.



Reply #12 Top
When God is ready, the door to the Gentiles will be shut and he will reopen the door to the Jews.



There will come a day that the Jews will be coming to Christ and the Gentiles will not,




I don't see how St.Luke 21: 24B and Romans 11:25 make your point about the door being shut to the Gentiles or the day will come when the Gentiles will not be coming to God. Both passages reference "Until the fullness of the Gentiles", and that time is now, the present time and goes until the end of time when Jesus comes again at the Final Judgment.

"The time of the Gentiles" according to Catholic commentary is the period in which the Gentiles, who do not belong to the Jewish people, will become new members of the children of God, the Church. This time will go on until the end of time.

I can understand that somehow God in His own time and way will convert the Jews and if that's what you mean by 'reopening" to door to the Jews, then I understand that.


Also, we've discussed this before that this passage of St. Luke taken in full context from v. 20-33 through the end of the chapter can easily be understood as have already happened. The other chapter references are Daniel and St.Matt. These indicate this was the time of the Great Tribulation leading to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. "Jerusalem was trodden down by the Gentiles" that is the Roman army and Jesus warned the Christians in Jerusalem at that time to flee to the mountains. Those were the days of vengeance when Jesus said that Daniel's SOn of Man would come in judgment. He told the Sanhedrin that they will see the day when He comes to judge them and that day of the destruction of Jerusalem this promise was fulfilled. The destruction of Jerusalem was a great and desivive judgment upon the Jews.

Reply #13 Top
Also, we've discussed this before that this passage of St. Luke taken in full context from v. 20-33 through the end of the chapter can easily be understood as have already happened. The other chapter references are Daniel and St.Matt. These indicate this was the time of the Great Tribulation leading to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. "Jerusalem was trodden down by the Gentiles" that is the Roman army and Jesus warned the Christians in Jerusalem at that time to flee to the mountains


yes and no. Jerusalem has been trodden down by the Gentiles since Nebuchadnezzer first took Jerusalem in 605 BC. Ever since then it's been under Gentile (non Jew) domination. Even today...there is a Muslim Mosque in place of where the Temple should be. Just a simple reading of the OT you can see after the Babylonians had control, then the Medes and Persians, and the Greeks before Rome came on the scene....andit's been controled by Gentiles ever since.

I think when Jesus said "until the fulness of the Gentiles" he means after that the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will once again dominate Jerusalem like they were supposed to be. The Jews and the Land were to be forever linked.

I don't see how you can say that v20-33 has ALREADY happened? V27 says:

"And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

That's already happened? You mean I missed the second coming? Although I would agree that v24 not only HAS happened but continues to happen. But certainly v25 hasn't happened yet either.

Concerning 25-28....Jesus having described the signs relating to the destruction of Jerusalem which some of them would live to see, and the general signs of the progress of the present age, then reveals in detail the specific signs which will be unmistakable evidence that the second coming of Christ is near. These specific signs are entirely diff than the signs for the destruction of Jerusalem though there are some similarities.

Taken as a whole, the revelation of Matt 24:4-31 with parallel passages in Mark and Luke answers the three questions that the disciples had raised. First, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem which occurred in 70AD and the second and third questions dealing with the end of the age and the coming of Christ. The event itself is preceded by the signs which Jesus described and are climaxed in the second coming.

In Matt I would say that v4-14 are speaking to the first half of the coming tribulation with v15-28 speaking of the second half.

I don't see how anyone can look at this honestly and declare it's already happened. Are you saying you believe it because you have given this serious thought...or are you saying this because the Catholic encyclopedia has told you so?

When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD it was awful for them, but it came in waves. There were warnings. Titus didn't just come in all at once and flatten Jerusalem. Besides, this same thing also happened in 3 waves with Nebuchadnezzer. He came in in 605, 597 and finally in 586 BC each time carrying more off to Babylonian captivity before he burned Jerusalem. Daniel and his friends were carried away I think on the second wave with Ezekiel carried away on the third. So 70AD was nothing new. It was history repeating itself...only instead of Neb it was the Roman Titus.







Reply #14 Top
So I'm saying

"The time of the Gentiles" according to Catholic commentary is the period in which the Gentiles, who do not belong to the Jewish people, will become new members of the children of God, the Church. This time will go on until the end of time.



and you are saying


I think when Jesus said "until the fulness of the Gentiles" he means after that the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will once again dominate Jerusalem like they were supposed to be. The Jews and the Land were to be forever linked.


When God is ready, the door to the Gentiles will be shut and he will reopen the door to the Jews.

There will come a day that the Jews will be coming to Christ and the Gentiles will not,



I see none of this in Scripture especially that part where the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will once again dominate Jerusalem. I also don't understand the point of the Jews rebuilding the Temple or dominating Jerusalem especially since the Church and the Christian mission has been a very big part of the city ever since the day of Pentecost and will be until the fullness of the Gentiles until the end of the world.

The Temple was rent and Jerusalem was destroyed and that was the end of BIblical Judaism. The Temple and Temple sacrifice time is done; the Old Covenant has been fulfilled, completed in the New. I see nothing in Scripture that says the Temple is going to be rebuilt in the New COvenant which is everlasting.







Reply #15 Top
I see none of this in Scripture especially that part where the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will once again dominate Jerusalem.


I don't think you can see it Lula, to be honest, because you've taken the Preterist viewpoint which has backdated scripture. The temple being rebuilt is all thru not only the OT but also in Revelation for one; but I think there might be more on the Millennium Temple than the Tribulation time temple. Although the Jews in Israel are all ready to built it now. They have everything in place waiting for the right time and permission to do so.

The Temple was rent and Jerusalem was destroyed and that was the end of BIblical Judaism. The Temple and Temple sacrifice time is done; the Old Covenant has been fulfilled, completed in the New.


You're looking at it all wrong...it's not sanctioned by God...it's going to be built more for the reign of the Anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ remember is coming as the Jewish Messiah that the Jews have been waiting for. The Messiah, to a Jew, needs a Temple. God is going to use this time and persecution of the Jews (yet again) to wake them up....they are then going to realize that Jesus was the true Messiah afterall. Zechariah writes about this. It's going to be the final Day of Atonement for the Jews.






Reply #16 Top
Based on the books in the Left Behind series, which are not scripture, but written from scripture (not that I bothered to check, so keep that in mind) the temple will be desecrated by the anti-Christ at some point in the Tribulation. Therefore, it will be rebuilt. It has to be rebuilt.
Reply #17 Top

I don't see how you can say that v20-33 has ALREADY happened? V27 says:

"And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."



St.Luke 21:20-33 has already happened; it's been fulfilled. Now, that's not to say that some of the verses can also refer to the end time; for one, we already discussed v. 24 b "until the time of the Gentiles" means the period in which the Gentiles will become members of the new people of God which is the present time through the end times. So, v. 24 is still occurring.

Here is ST.Luke 21:20-24:

20, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it: 22 for these days of vengeance , to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days. For great distress shall be upon the earth , and wrath upon this people. 24 They shall fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The time described in V. 20-24a have certainly already happened.
Here we see in v 20-24 that Jesus is giving quite a detailed prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. When the Christians living there saw the Roman armies of Titus getting closer, they remembered this prophecy and fled to the Transjordan according to the historian Eusebuis.

Christ had advised them to flee as soon as possible becasue this is a time when God would punish Jerusalem for its sins, as the OT predicted. Is. 5:5-6.

When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD it was awful for them, but it came in waves. There were warnings. Titus didn't just come in all at once and flatten Jerusalem. Besides, this same thing also happened in 3 waves with Nebuchadnezzer. He came in in 605, 597 and finally in 586 BC each time carrying more off to Babylonian captivity before he burned Jerusalem. Daniel and his friends were carried away I think on the second wave with Ezekiel carried away on the third. So 70AD was nothing new. It was history repeating itself...only instead of Neb it was the Roman Titus.


Yes, the Great Tribulation that occurred did come in waves and what happened in 70 AD was very, very new. It was also the very, very end to biblical Judaism...According to Daniel, when this happened "the wise" understood the mystery of the kingdom and the Infant Church was unencumbered (with the old sacrifices of the Temple) to set about her God-given mission that would continue until the fullness of the Gentiles.

In the summer of 66AD, Jerusalem halted the daily sacrifices for Nero. This started the 42 month old war between the Jews and the Romans. This could be understood as when the "continual burnt offering will cease" and the "abomonation that makes desolate"
will be set up.

For the Jews, there were lots of abominations occurring in the Temple. The abomination that makes desolate may refer to the invasion of Judea by the Roman army. The Roman army came in 66, and returned with a vengeance between 67 and 70AD. St.Luke speaks of famine, disease and death that the desolation of an army this size left behind. Gentiles practiced idolatry when the temple fell to the Romans they worshipped the eagle which led their troops in battle. They brought their ensigns to the Temple and set them over the gate and offered sacrifice to them. This was a great abomination to the Jews. Anyway, these events are related to Daniel's 12:7 "shattering of the power of the holy people".

Biblical Judaism was over...done. It has never been rebuilt. With this understanding from Daniel coupled with what Jesus warned about in St.Luke and St. Matt. 24, we see that Jesus urged His disciples to flee at the emergence of certain signs which they headed. The 'wise' did understand and those who were patient and faithful were "blessed". They were still safe when the 1,335 days were fulfilled. The early Christians finally understood the mystery of the kingdom that Christ's dominion was going to be worldwide not merely Jewish and definitely no longer tied to the Temple and the confusion that Temple worship engendered.


St.Luke 21:25--26

"And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves., men fainting with fear, and foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

There is no doubt that these dramatic changes in nature refers to when the end of the world is coming to an end. The whole universe is going to tremble at the Lord's Second Coming in great power and glory to bring about the Final JUDGMENT.

But at the same time here in St.Luke, as well as with the same kind of language in St.Matt. 24, concerning the darkening of the heavenly bodies, and the disruption of nature always coincides with numerous references in the OT as well as this one to divine JUDGMENT. The earthquake and darkening of the sun occurred at Christ's death which was also a judgment upon the Jewish people where they experienced the unprecedented and total demise of their nation, followed by an expulsion of their homeland at the hand of the Roman armies within 40 years of Christ's death. So, in this regard, I say v. 25-26 already occurred---at the destruction of Jerusalem when He came in JUDGMENT against Isreal.


V. 27, "ANd then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."


You know, KFC, every time we see the words "coming in clouds", we mustn't assume it means that Christ was coming to down to earth or always assume it means Christ Second Coming. Again, 'clouds of heaven' symbolize the majesty and glory that the Son of man when He JUDGES His enemies.

Here is another example of our Lord, clouds and JUDGMENT. In IS. 19:1-2, "the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt and the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence." In the fulfillment of this passage, Is. 20:1-6, God comes to JUDGE the false idols--in the form of the Assyrian army, The Assyrian army is the physical reality that GOd came "on a swift cloud"!

Almost the same is happening with St.Luke v. 27 as happens when Jesus quoted Son of man in Daniel 7:13-14 "with the clouds of heaven there came one like the Son of Man". Jesus said that Daniel's Son of man would come in JUDGMENT during the Sanhedrin's generation. Now, the coming in JUDGMENT of Daniel 7, and StMatt. 26, occurred in the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD when CHrist JUDGED Jerusalem with the Roman army. Christ predicted this event in St.Luke 19:42-44.

There was only one event which occurred during the generation of the Sanhedrin that would show them that Christ was their JUDGE and they would see evidence of the coming of the Son of man. The public event which showed the coming of Christ in the clouds of glorious victory was the destruction of Jerusalem. It was a public judgement that proved to all that Christ was victor while in Heaven over His enemies. V. 27 is the victorious judgment of Christ in Heaven as evidenced in the events of what happened here on earth at the destruction of Jerusalem.

V. 27, relates to Daniel's "Son of man' prophecy, the judgment of 70AD, and is also a prophecy of the Final Coming of Christ.







Reply #18 Top

I see none of this in Scripture especially that part where the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will once again dominate Jerusalem.


Either it's in Scripture or it isn't.


The temple being rebuilt is all thru not only the OT


I know from reading the OT Scripture that the Temple was rebuilt so, no problem there.

but also in Revelation for one; but I think there might be more on the Millennium Temple than the Tribulation time temple.


I haven't read all of the Book of the Apocalypse, so is there mention of the rebuilding of the Temple in the same sense that you are referring? If so, what ch. and verse so I can read about it?

The Great Tribulation has already occurred in the times leading up to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70AD. This would be the tribulation time Temple as far as from what Scripture tells us. That Temple is down for the count...again, unless there is something in the Book of the Apocalypse that I haven't read yet.

Although the Jews in Israel are all ready to built it now. They have everything in place waiting for the right time and permission to do so.


This is all extra-Biblical stuff stemming from either Protestant Zionism or from those who believe in the Rapture theory which is what Jytheir is referring to.

Unless it's clearly Scriptural (without twisting or tweaking) or from the CC, I'm not buying it.

I see none of this in Scripture especially that part where the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will once again dominate Jerusalem.


So, thusfar, you can't show this in Scripture. That means it too must be extra-Biblical.

LULA POSTS:
The Temple was rent and Jerusalem was destroyed and that was the end of BIblical Judaism. The Temple and Temple sacrifice time is done; the Old Covenant has been fulfilled, completed in the New.


KFC POSTS: You're looking at it all wrong


What do you mean, every word I posted here is true.

it's not sanctioned by God...it's going to be built more for the reign of the Anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ remember is coming as the Jewish Messiah that the Jews have been waiting for. The Messiah, to a Jew, needs a Temple. God is going to use this time and persecution of the Jews (yet again) to wake them up....they are then going to realize that Jesus was the true Messiah afterall. Zechariah writes about this. It's going to be the final Day of Atonement for the Jews.


Oh, KFC, is this something you read in LEFT BEHIND becasue it's really a s--t--r--e--t--c--h?   

Now, I've studied Zechariah (maybe not as much as you) and I never read this in his prophecy.

Now I know what you mean when you wrote that I'm looking at it wrong---is that because I'm not looking at it from a Rapturist pov?

Oh dear, if so, it's going to be a long study on the Book of Revelation!
Reply #19 Top
Hey, I'm supposed to be the fictional Tribulation expert, KFC's the Biblical Tribulation expert, and you're the expert... Catholic, I guess? Ah well. You should probably read the book of Revelation before you make up your mind about the end times. I don't recommend reading Left Behind, though, because it could be all wrong and have screwed me up so bad I don't know what's real and what's fiction. Never mind the violent video game they tried to make acceptable to Christian fans.

Anyway, the point is, read all of Revelations, without studying it, and see what kind of picture of the end times you get. Then, as we progress through this study, you will have a better idea of what KFC might be saying at certain points.

Reply #20 Top

The time described in V. 20-24a have certainly already happened.[/quote]

but it's going to happen again. We read in I think Zechariah and Ezek that "all nations" are going against Israel. This has not happened yet. Nowhere in our history have we read "all nations" are going in. In 70AD it was Rome only.
What you're talking here is the law of double fulfillment. This is quite common in scripture. Actually it's happened to Jersualem many times...they were surrounded and taken over multiple times.


You know, KFC, every time we see the words "coming in clouds", we mustn't assume it means that Christ was coming to down to earth or always assume it means Christ Second Coming. Again, 'clouds of heaven' symbolize the majesty and glory that the Son of man when He JUDGES His enemies.


so you're spiritualizing it. To do that you can make it fit how you want to fit. But looking at the context of the whole thing, Christ is talking second coming, not 70AD. You have to ask yourself. Does it make sense with other scriptures when we read this? The answer is yes. When Christ ascended in Acts 1 what did the angels tell the disciples?

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld he was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up behold two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, You men of Galilee why stand you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven." 1:9-11

So Lula it's very clear, this is going to happen literally. This is what I mean when I say scripture interprets scripture.

Here is another example of our Lord, clouds and JUDGMENT. In IS. 19:1-2, "the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt and the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence." In the fulfillment of this passage, Is. 20:1-6, God comes to JUDGE the false idols--in the form of the Assyrian army, The Assyrian army is the physical reality that GOd came "on a swift cloud"!


There could be some double fullfillment here as well but notice in this same section Judah would rule over the Egyptians (15-16). This has to be future as it does not seem to correspond to any event in history. In the time of the future kingdom prophecy indicates that Egypt would turn to the Lord and worship Him. As a result, He would heal them from the plague (v19-22). Hasn't happened yet.

Yes, I'd agree that 20:1-6 is history already fulfilled.

Reply #21 Top

Either it's in Scripture or it isn't.


Welll I've given you Matthew 24:15. You say it's already happened. I say it's future. You can also check out Revelation 11 where the Temple is being measured and this is during the Tribulation period. We'll get into that more later.

In the Great Tribulation (future) the temple will be desecrated, sacrifices stopped and the worship of the world ruler installed instead (Daniel 9:27, 12:11-12, Matt 24:15, 2 Thess 2:4; Rev 13:4-5. Measureing the temple here in Rev 11 will indicate the apostasy of the nation Israel.

Now, I've studied Zechariah (maybe not as much as you) and I never read this in his prophecy.


No what I was referring to really was the Day of Atonement which is one of the seven feasts given to the Jews by God (Leviticus 23). The first 4 feasts have come true in the first coming. The last three feasts are yet to be fulfilled. They were the "fall" feasts and are yet future. Zechariah is referring to the day when the Day of Atonement (the 6th Feast) will be fulfilled in the second coming.

You should probably read the book of Revelation before you make up your mind about the end times


good idea.

I don't recommend reading Left Behind, though, because it could be all wrong and have screwed me up so bad I don't know what's real and what's fiction


I don't think the LB books were that far off at all. I think LaHaye was just trying to put it in easy terms for the non-believers to get it. I haven't read them all but what I did read, wasn't far off the historic Christian church's belief in the end times based on the scriptures. He was mixing the truths of the bible with fictional characters.





Reply #22 Top
I don't think they were that far off, either, but I don't recommend reading Left Behind first. It puts a notion into your head that allows you to interpret scripture to match.
Reply #23 Top
KFC POSTS:
We read in I think Zechariah and Ezek that "all nations" are going against Israel. This has not happened yet. Nowhere in our history have we read "all nations" are going in. In 70AD it was Rome only.


Just a couple of things....

"All nations" in the days of Zechariah and Ezekiel amounted to the Roman Empire...that was the whole world in those days.

You say that in 70AD, it was Rome only. Well, it wasn't only the Roman army. I'm quite certain that, if you check, you'll find that other nations joined with Titus and the Roman army and went in and destroyed Jerusalem. It was "all nations" from that respect as well.

It was so bad that God shortened the days of tribulation otherwise the flegling Christian community wouldn't have been able to endure.

When I read your comment in total, I read you putting OT phophecy together with so-called future events and I stay just as far away from doing that as possible. It's as though you are using Scripture, picking out one verse and connecting that to another to predict future events that you imagine will occur in the end time. This seems too much like using Scripture as a crystal ball kind of thing and that's a no-no in my estimation.

As I said before, when I read along with you in this study, I try as best I can to understand the meaning of Scripture according to the Church's interpretation.

Jytheir is correct in that in order to support the Rapture theory, one must interpret Scripture to fit the theory.
Reply #24 Top
"Jytheir(sic) is correct in that in order to support the Rapture theory, one must interpret Scripture to fit the theory."

That's not what I said. I said that Left Behind makes one want to interpret the Scriptures to match, meaning the exact events portrayed in the book. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

So when is the end of time going to come? Has it already ended? Are we done now? Or is there no end, Lula?
Reply #25 Top

Welll I've given you Matthew 24:15. You say it's already happened. I say it's future.


St.Matt 24:15, St.Luke 21 and the other passages that we have been discussing tell us that before a generation had time to pass from the scene, the world would pass away (that is the world of biblical Judaism) and make room for the new kingdom of God. That’s exactly what happened (past tense, KFC). The world, then, to these particular people centered around the Temple. It did indeed come to an end, and it was forty years, exactly one generation after Jesus had made His prediction. In Daniel’s 70th week, in 70AD, Jerusalem was destroyed and with it the Temple, which had been God’s dwelling place on earth.

You quoted Acts 1:9-11, when Jesus ascended upon the clouds into Heaven. This is where He was when He made the judgment upon Isreal at the destruction of Jerusalem. He was already upon the clouds in Heaven when He judged Isreal using all the nations together with the Roman Army.


"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld he was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up behold two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, You men of Galilee why stand you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven." 1:9-11

So Lula it's very clear, this is going to happen literally.


Yes, definitely, your point is well made and well taken.