But in the end you rely on the concious decision of those members of the church to enact those sacraments. With the argument you are posing we could say that all OUR good works are just channeling the grace of God, and then say that we could earn our way into heaven by the sacrament of personal good works.

You wouldn't say that, but I fail to see how it is really any different when you say that the "works" of the church aren't really works, they are just the channeled grace of God. Why, then, wouldn't my works just be the channeled grace of God? Salvation still seems to be reliant on the active participation of mortal men.

KFC, you issue these one-line challenges:

KFC POSTS:



and I came back with Jesus' own words.

As reported by St.John 3:5, Jesus Himself said it to Nicodemus,

v.5, "Jesus answered, Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

KFC, it all boils down to who are you going to believe---what you've been taught from Protestant oral tradition, your own private interpretation of Scripture or Jesus Himself?

You also said the 7 Sacraments weren't Scriptural and I have shown you that Baptism is indeed Scriptural...the other six are as well.

"born" of water and "baptized" of water are NOT the same thing. If Jesus meant that we were to go and be "water" baptized to go to heaven, then it contradicts many other scriptures including Eph 2:8-9 among many others.

so born of water here can mean two things only. 1) the physical water that accompanies birth (going by the next verse) so it would mean "unless one is born the first time by water and the second time by the Spirit." or 2)it can also mean the Word of God as in John 15:3, Ps 119:9 and would be understood that way by a Jew especially Nicodemus a teacher of the law. I think it means #2 but many believe it means #1 because of v6. But it DOES not mean the physical act of a work called baptism.

One thing is quite clear. The new birth is from God thru the Spirit.


Here's another 3:5 you may be interested in.

"NOT by works of righteousness which we HAVE DONE but according to HIS MERCY he saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour." Titus 3:5

It's all HIM not us. Do you see us here? Check the pronouns. Even in John 3:5 that you quoted, did Jesus say it had to do with us? It wasn't a command but a statement he made. We act out of love and obedience AFTERwards.

Salvation is God's gracious work, not a reward for man's worthwhile acts.

KFC POSTS #38:

Before I comment on this, I'll post another of KFC's posts that also refers to the penitent thief and having to do with the topics of faith alone, works, and baptism.

KFC POSTS: This is what "Faith Alone" is all about. This criminal was saved by Faith. He didn't get down and do anything. He didn't get baptized first. He didn't perform more good deeds that would outweigh the bad ones. This criminal recogized, all of a sudden, that this man who hung beside him was God himself. By his statement we can easily recognize his need. He needed Jesus. He recognized Jesus as King. Only a King would have a kingdom.

I must disagree when you say this is what ‘faith alone” is all about. The “Faith alone” precept is right out of Martin Luther’s teaching and you are repeating Protestant oral tradition when you say that the penitent thief was saved “by Faith alone.” You interpret St.Luke 23:39-43 and use the penitent thief’s sudden recognition of Jesus to deny everything from Baptism, to repentance, to works, to holiness as necessary to be saved and enter into Heaven.

Even if we were to grant that the penitent thief presents one instance of salvation by faith without works, the exception does not make the rule. I might say that it is the thief, not Jesus, who initiates the conversation. Is that not works of sort?

Now here's the Scriptural passage and comments following, you all can be the judge.

St.Ambrose wrote the episode of the 2 thieves invites us to admire the designs of Divine Providence. Both thieves are in the same position--in the presence of the Eternal High Priest as He offers Himself in sacrifice for them and all mankind. One of them hardens his heart, despairs and blasphemes while the other repents, corresponds with grace and was thereby saved. He left the cross for Paradise. Here, St.Ambrose comments, “The Lord always grants more than one asks: the thief only asked Him to remember him, but the Lord says to him, “Amen, I say to thee, this day, thou shalt be with Me in paradise.”

St.Luke 23:39-43, “And one of the thieves who was crucified with Him, blasphemed Him like the others, saying, “If thou be Christ, save Thyself and us!” But the other rebuked him saying, “Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art under the same condemnation. We, indeed, justly for we receive the due reward for our deeds; but this Man hath done no evil.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when Thou shalt come into thy kingdom!” Jesus replied, ““Amen, I say to thee, this day, thou shalt be with Me in paradise.”

The conversion of the penitent thief was a miracle of grace won by the merits of Christ. When the thief saw the patience and gentleness in which Jesus suffered and how He repaid injuries with love, and when he heard Him address God as His Father, he opened his heart to grace and believed that Jesus was the Messias and the Son of God. With this “faith” there was awakened in hope and confidence in the power of the Redeemer to pardon him.

He had committed great crimes and now, at the point of dying, he hoped to receive pardon. Love for Jesus also entered his heart and impelled him to do what he could to protect Him from the insults of the other thief whom he upbraided for his blasphemies. From his love of Jesus proceeded a deep contrition which he made known by a sincere confession of his great guilt, whereby he had deserved the punishment of death. He accepted his punishment and suffered willingly in satisfaction of his sins. He didn’t ask to be delivered from temporal punishment, but acknowledged that his sufferings were no more than his due. His conversion therefore was very real and perfect, and Our Lord remitted all his sins and promised him possession of Paradise.

Jesus promised the pentitent thief eternal life and when the thief died he went to a place Catholics call Limbo, the place in which the souls of the just were awaiting deliverance. WHy? Becasue all those just from the time of Adam who died before Christ's Death and Resurrection went to this place simply becasue Heaven wasn't open to them yet. Heaven was only opened as the fruit of His Passion. His Passion reconciled men to God and reopened the gates of Heaven to all mankind.

As it says in the Apostles Creed, "....I believe in Jesus Christ..who suffered...was crucified...died, and was buried. He descended to the dead (hell) ..on the third day He rose again from the dead.."

As soon as He died, He descended to the dead (hell...not the place of the devil and lost souls for there is nothing He can do for them for by their own free decision they had cut themselves off from God for eternity), but to the place called Limbo, to transport into eternal bliss the holy and just souls from their confinement and to impart to them the fruit of His Passion and bring them to Heaven with Himself. This deliverance of the just souls is predicted in the OT and mentioned in Psalm 14:10 (check that #, KFC).

geeezeeeeeeee....... "LEFT BEHIND" IS A BOOK ABOUT THE RAPTURE YES, DO i believe the book. hell no. is it well written, I think so, is it scary in content if you let your imagination go, , why yes it is!.

KFC POSTS:

Amen, Sister. We have agreement on the most important element of Baptism which is a new birth just as Jesus explained to Nicodemus. He told him one must be born again, in a spiritual birth, by water and the Holy Spirit and whole new world opened up to Nicodemus.



I think it is. "Born of water and the Holy Spirit" and Baptized of water and the holy spirit are the same thing. Jesus spoke very forcefully about man’s new condition. It’s no longer a question of being born in the flesh, on the line of Abraham, St.John 1:13, but being born anew through the action of the Holy Spirit by means of water.

Let's look at 'born of water and the spirit" as baptism from this angle. St. Thomas Aquinas says the sacrament of Baptism was instituted at the moment Christ was baptized by St. John the Baptist. He says that when the waters of St. John's baptism touched Christ at that moment water itself was sanctified and received, through Christ, became the matter by which the power to sanctify the souls of men.

Here's the passage and note the presence of yup, you guessed it---water and the Blessed Trinity are present.

St. Matt 3:6,13,16,17----
Those from Jerusalem and all Judea in the area of the Jordan River went out to meet St.John the Baptist, v.6, “And were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins...13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. 16 and Jesus being baptized forwith came out of the water, and lo, the heavens were opened to him; and he saw the spirit of God descending as a dove and coming upon him. 17 and behold a voice from Heaven saying, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” (here we have the Blessed Trinity all present--the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost.)

KFC, we know Jesus Christ is the greatest teacher of all. He set the example, He told us what to do, He should us what to do. The time had come that He willed to appear openly as the Messiah and He began His public life by being baptized by St. John the Baptist just as if He were an ordinary Israelite. Why did He let Himself be baptized? He certainly didn’t require penance as He was sinless, but He was to take our sins upon Himself to atone for them and therefore He humbled Himself placed Himself on the level of sinners, and obediently subjected Himself to be baptized....(just as we are supposed to do.) He gave us a lesson in humility and obedience and taught us that we too must fulfill all justice that is promptly obey all the ordinances of God. By His Baptism, He sanctified water and gave it the power of purifying and sanctifying the soul of man. He instituted the Sacrament of Baptism by which under the outward sign of water, we receive the remission of our sins.

The wonderful events which followed the Baptism of Jesus directly foreshadowed the effects of Christian Baptism. In the Sacrament of Baptism, when the water is poured and the specific words are pronounced, the Holy Ghost comes down on man, gives him sanctifying grace, and infuses on him the 3 theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. By the grace of Baptism God adopts man to be His beloved child, and opens for him the way to heaven.


Now, baptism must be performed in the manner determined by Christ who instituted it and it consists of 2 parts, the matter and the form : The matter is the cleansing by water of the one to be baptized and the form is the pronunciation of the words which call the Blessed Trinity. (and btw, each of the 7 sacraments has its own matter and form).

St.T.Aquinas says Christ chose water because it is the element most frequently used in cleansing things and especially because it is most easily accessible to men rich and poor alike.

One last thing. We know that Baptism achieves its effects through the power of CHrist's Passion. Yet, Christ has the power to give men grace outside the Sacrament as the normal means of obtaining grace. Normally, men cannot even begin a life of grace unless they receive the sacrament. But Christ knows that for some men, it's impossible through no fault of their own for instance if there is no one to baptize him. Men can receive grace through what we call the baptism of blood or baptism of desire. This is when man gives his life for his belief in in God and in Christ. He's marytred for the faith. IN Baptism of desire, a man repents of his sins and desires to do GOd's will and obey His commands.

KFC POSTS:

Eph. 2:8-9, "By grace are you saved--through faith. And this is not from you, God's is the gift, not from works, so that none may boast."

No it doesn't because Baptism is an act of man's faith in the power of God through the merits of CHrist's Passion. In Baptism, there isn't any boasting going on nor is it looked as a man's achievement.

"not from works" by this St.Paul understands anything whatsoever that man performs of himself alone, independently of the grace of GOd. THat's certainly not the case in Baptism. Everything about the sacrament of Baptism is from God.

And then, KFC, go to the very next verse in Ephesians, v. 10, "for we are GOd's work, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has prepared beforehand in order that we may walk therein."

We are created by God's work and Baptism was created by Jesus so that we might be baptized. And this is a teaching of CHrist, "If any man love me, he will keep my commandments" and keeping Christ's commandments means good works. We do need besides good works, both faith and charity...and interestingly enough, those supernatural virtues come from the Sacrament of Baptism. There is no way that St.Paul means that a man is saved by faith only to the exclusion of good works. Both figure in God's wonderful plan of salvation. St.James said, "For even as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." 2:26.

BAKERSTREET posts:

BS, my answer to your first question is YES. I said as much in reply # 36 . I said, This is true of the Church. I stand by this. Self righteousness is a sin and works alone are not in God's plan of salvation.

In another place I posted: I'd like to explain what is meant by the Church never teaching works alone.

In a previous posting I should have said the Church has never taught that sanctity comes through our own justice or works ALONE. We can’t “work” or “earn” our way to heaven and the CC doesn’t now teach nor ever has taught a doctrine of salvation based on “works alone” or what John Calvin accused the “papists” of teaching “works righteousness”. In fact, the notion of someone earning salvation is a heresy the Catholic Church has repeatedly condemned. The Pelagian heresy was condemned by the Council of Carthage in 416 and again in 418. Good works prompted by purely natural motives cannot save a man. In 1 Cor. 8:3 St.Paul says, ‘If I should give all my goods to feed the poor, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.” Yet, good works inpsired by love for Christ and ones neighbor are necessary.

BAKERSTREET POSTS: Do you really believe any part of our salvation relies upon mortal men?

TAEDIUM VITAE POSTS:

Yes, indeed, salvation is reliant upon our active participation according to the will of God. Our “active participation” is what is called “good works or deeds”. By good works I mean, the meritorious actions done for the love of God for His sake and for love of our neighbor. Said another way, good works is love in action. Love implies deeds. Obedience to His will implies deeds. Anyone who does good works inspired by love of God and performed by one in God’s grace and friendship does contribute towards one’s salvation through the merits of Jesus Christ.

We will be judged according to our works or deeds---of what we’ve done and what we have failed to do according to St.Matt. 25:31-46. V. 41 teaches that Christ will judge each one of our thoughts, words and actions and separate us according to our works (deeds). He will tell the wicked to depart from Him into everlasting fire and in 25:24, He will say to the just (good) come to everlasting life.

Also, 2Thess.1: 6-9, St.Paul is clear that God will judge each of us according to his works, merits, whether or not he believes and obeys the Gospel. Elsewhere he says that ‘the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God.” 1Cor. 6:9; Gal. 5:20-21; Eph. 5:5.

And let’s not forget, St.Matt. 12: 36-37, Christ says, “But I tell you that men will have to give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.”


The Church has always upheld the Apostolic teaching that we are saved by grace through faith. Grace empowers us to have faith and faith leads us to do good works. Everyone is offered the free gift of grace, but not all will have faith. Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us to the intimacy of the life of the Blessed Trinity. By Baptism, we participate in the grace of Christ so we look to God and not ourselves as the perfector and author of our salvation.


The Lord doesn’t desire that we remain passive or inert in this process of our justification, sanctification and (hopefully) eventual salvation. He makes us His cooperators in this process. Let’s follow this through. In Ephesians 2, St.Paul said that our faith is a gift from God. Faith is God’s instrument by which we receive and maintain the grace of our salvation, but notice what this entails. Our faith in Christ is a gift, but yet it is we who must exercise that faith in order for it to be efficacious. Or, to say it differently---God does not have faith in Himself for us. We are the ones who have been enabled by His grace to have faith in Him...and that is something we ‘do’...and it is in that sense, a ‘work’.


Scripture tells us that God’s grace is free to us, but we are called and enabled by Him to make use of that grace. I don’t mean in some bartering way, like I do this; you do that. Rather, as His adopted sons and daughters who are now able to live out our faith by doing what God commands us.

The Church teaches the same as the Apostles did. Namely, that we are all called to have faith in Christ and to be obedient to His commands. Being obedient to Christ’s commands is just as important as coming to Christ and believing in Him. One without the other doesn’t get it. “Why do you call me Lord, Lord but do not do what I tell you?” St.Luke 6:46. Scripture points out that it’s futile for the one who claims that Christ is his Lord and Savior but who fails to act on that belief. It’s the true believer, the enduring, persevering, faithful believer, the authentic disciple of Christ who “comes to me and hears my words and does them.” 6:47.

Consider this reminder from our Lord. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” St.John 15:9-10.

It is upon this Scripture and many others that the Church teaches that in order to go to heaven, one must die in the state of grace. Notice that the Lord stipulates that one will abide in His love, IF one keeps His commandments. The reverse must be equally true. If one refuses to keep His commandments, , then one will not abide in His love. And following that through, if one doesn’t abide in His love--and die unrepentant in that tragic state---one won’t be saved.

Salvation is a free gift of God for all, though only some will choose to embrace that gift of grace, repent and live out their faith through obedience to Christ (Rom. 6:23; Titus 2:13-14; Eph. 2:8-9), not by their own useless “righteous” deeds (Titus 3:5; Heb. 6:1) but out of love for Christ, animated by His grace. “I can do all things through him that strengthens me”. (Phil 4:13). And finally, St.John said, “little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he who is righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil.” 1St.John 3:7-8.

Of faith and works, St.James 2: 17-18 sums it up. “ Faith without works is dead in itself. But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” Here, St. James explains the relationship between faith and works that BOTH are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.


The fact is “faith alone” is insufficient for salvation and so is “works alone” insufficient for salvation. Niether one can be divorced from the other and this is a fact that bothers many Fundamentalists who are not willing to depart from Luther’s notion of “justification by faith alone” which (erroneously) taught that “good works” are in no way necessary for salvation.

For them, what St.James says in V. 24, “You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone” is extremely problematic. It directly contradicts the Protestant notion of “sola fide” or “justification by faith alone”. Martin Luther knew it and that’s why he wanted to throw the Epistle of St. James out of the Bible calling it an “epistle of straw”. Luther’s “justification of faith alone” and all the arguments in the world that support it simply don’t square up with Scripture.
The Catholic Church opposes both extremes...works alone and faith alone. Faith alone without a good moral life is not enough. Everyone is disgusted with the man who professes a Christian life yet who lives an evil life and no one really believes he’s on the road to salvation.

Lula there's no way I have time to refute all you said but here's a couple things:

Regarding your Post #54...there you go again....gotta always bring up Luther...will you quit that? Now, you do that and then in the same breath quote Ambrose. Let's just stick to scripture and leave MAN out of it. Have I even quoted Luther once?

There is NO Psalm 14:10.

Post #56: I said this:



and you said this:



That's not good enough. You think it is? Show me where it is the same thing as you assert. Show me in scripture. How can you have anything to do with your own birth? Did you the first time? Did you birth yourself? What makes you so sure you can the second time?



You answered your own question right here. His baptism was a sign of his public ministry. It's the same for us. Jesus wasn't saved right then. His example is for us to follow. AFTER we become saved we too are baptized to start our public ministry and to show the world we have died to self and have risen to do the work of Christ. Pure and simple...it has nothing to do with magic waters.

Post #57


EXACTLY. This isn't proving your point sista! That's why it's put AFTER 8 and 9. Good works FOLLOW salvation. We are NOT saved by our works. We are saved UNTO good works. To do them.

In everyone of your posts you quote somebody outside of scripture, usually somebody favorably to the CC and yet you still clober me because I supposedly follow Luther (which I don't). Luther is not the end all. He was used by God for a time such as that.

If you want to prove something to me...use the scripture to do so. Man's opinion can be helpful but it's not what I adhere to.

As you like to say Lula...LOL.....BINGO!

You've just admitted we NEED TO WORK OUR WAY to Salvation. This is NOT biblical. Why did Christ die then? Why did he bother if we work our own way in?

Seems to be reliant? GAH!

KFC posts:

Oh, c'mon KFC, that wouldn't be any fun....

nor would it be realistic either, as Scripture is all about God's plan for MAN's salvation. Faith, plus good works in charity equal hopeful assurance of man's salvation.

KFC posts from #11,





KFC, you're funny.   Of Luther, he's your hero right? Why not bring him up? besides, this entire blog of MM's concerns Martin Luther, your hero....

Don't you know that when you say things like there are no such things as 7 sacraments in Scripture, hold up the notion of "justification by faith alone" that's repeating and holding up Martin Luther, your hero ...not Scripture?

KFC POSTS:

How can good works follow salvation becasue the only sure time you know of salvation is after you've died and gone to heaven?

You are a fine one to talk about steps, A, B,C and D....

OK, KFC, I'm hankering to get over to the Church of Thyatira, so I'll cool my jets on this one agreeing we have both stated our case rather plainly.

Seee this is what I mean, Baker, well educated, well read, and well instructed in
the bible, educated enough in biblical thought he can keep up with our two scolars, lula and KFC,.... I hate you baker.. LOl lol...

Lula and kfc, you bring so much thought into my life I want to thank you, I want to let you both know I read your responses and now I get to read Bakers inter-reaction with the two of you too..

Thank you all three for the Bible study, {new testament} A book I have never read, except excerpts.

MM

hahahah well you've got me there Lula. But you know I mean keeping man's interpretation out of things....of course I know that the bible is all about God's relationship with man. It's his love letter to mankind.



In some respects I think ML deserves ALOT of credit. He risked his life for what he believed in. What other motivation did he have? It was hard for him to stand up against the powerful at the Diet of Worms. It would have been so much easier for him to just let it go. He couldn't. His conscience would not allow it.



oh no, Jesus made it quite clear that we CAN KNOW. So too didn't all the NT writers. They called it our sure calling. It's a sure thing, once we come to him, he seals us with the HS as a deposit until he returns. Scripture is clear. I know the CC doesn't teach this but the bible does.



ok, I'll meet you over there. I also finished Sardis. I've got the church at Philly ready to go soon as well.



hahahah you're welcome, but I would suggest you read the gospel of Matthew because it was written specifically to the Jews. Many Jews who have read it are quite surprised at how Jewish it really is.

MM, why don't you get yourself a good Bible and follow along? It's much better reading than Left Behind dribble.

Sure is, KFC, let's try to get MM reading it, shall we?

Left behind is for my entertainment not my education. sheeesh.

I have a perfectly good bible it's called the Old Testament.

Look NOW, I loves both you gals, yer very nice ladies, BUT do NOT push the new testament or Christianity in my direction. I am JEW> PERIOD! I was Born A JEW and WILL DIE a JEW. WE ok on that?

Well I have NO problem with the LB series MM. So read on......they get better as you go.



I LOVE the OT. Did you know that the OT is revealed in the NT and the NT is hidden in the OLD?



not a problem MM. I only mentioned Matthhew because of your comment earlier about the NT. Remember I have Jewish blood as well. If the tables were turned just a tad I would have been brought up Jewish. In fact, I probably know more Jewish history and feasts than most Jews do. I spent two years teaching the 7 Jewish feasts of Leviticus 23.

I also have friends that are Jewish Christians....you never give up your Jewish Heritage when a Jew becomes a Christian.....not that I'm saying you will....just so you know they compliment each other. Jesus was a Jew afterall as were all the first Christians in Jerusalem.

I scored as Paul Tillich. Don't know him--havent read about him but if he is a realist I'm with him.

you see here is where I might know a little something, first off JESUS IS A JEW, HE never named himself a Christian, nor did Christianity even exist in his time on Earth, matter of fact, None of the Disciples, ever named themselves Christian either, again in their life time Christians did not yet Exist, They all were Born Jews and Died Jews.

I hadda google Martin Luthor, to see what I scored as, I suggest you google Paul Tillich and find out what he is about.

MM

Yah, can't blame a girl for trying though...."A" for effort..

yep, I understand that a Christians job is to bring others into the fold, I do not blame you for trying, matter of fact I respect it. I just ain't About to turn my back on Judaism, Old testament style.

Peace sister!

MM