Here's another POV on Luther, MM.

He was open with his frustrations and emotions, as well. Once, when asked if he truly loved God, Luther replied “Love God? Sometimes I hate Him!” Luther was also frustrated by the works-emphasis of the book of James, calling it “the Epistle of Straw, and questioning its canonicity. Also irritated with the complex symbolism of the Book of Revelation, he once said that it too, was not canon, and that it should be thrown into the river! He later retracted these statements, of course. Luther was a man who was easily misquoted or taken out of context. While a brilliant theologian, and a bold reformer, he would not have made a good politician. But then, he never aspired to any career in politics.

Luther initially preached tolerance towards the Jewish people, convinced that the reason they had never converted to Christianity was that they were discriminated against, or had never heard the Gospel of Christ. However, after his overtures to Jews failed to convince Jewish people to adopt Christianity, he began preaching that the Jews were set in evil, anti-Christian ways, and needed to be expelled from German politics. In his On the Jews and Their Lies, he repeatedly quotes the words of Jesus in Matthew 12:34, where Jesus called them "a brood of vipers and children of the devil"

Luther was zealous toward the Gospel, and he wanted to protect the people of his homeland from the Jews who he believed would be harmful influences since they did not recognize Jesus as their Saviour. In Luther's time, parents had a right and a duty to direct their children's marriage choices in respect to matters of faith. Likewise, Luther felt a duty to direct his German people to cling to the Jesus the Jews did not accept. It should be noted that church law was superior to civil law in Luther's day and that law said the penalty of blasphemy was death. When Luther called for the deaths of certain Jews, he was merely asking that the laws that were applied to all other Germans also be applied to the Jews. The Jews were exempt from the church laws that Christians were bound by, most notably the law against charging interest.


WWW Link

Lula, you said:


well you're the only one that I know who's ever said that the CC is NOT works based. Besides, read what you just said here......NEVER works you say but then in the next breath you say....we receive God's gift of grace by first.....

We on the other hand, as Protestants believe there's a period after grace. We receive God's gift of grace. Period. No first, seconds or thirds. Everything you just mentioned after the word grace....is works based.

Scripture is clear:

"For by grace you are saved through faith and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9

nothin at all compared to nailin 95 feces to a door.

i've been very patiently waitin for the day someone locates a 'which famous greek playwright or play are you?' thing so i can get my euripides and eumenides on.

"You scored as a composite of Bob Tilton, Joan d'Arc & Osiris."

like i needed a test to reveal that to myself.

You scored as Karl Barth, The daddy of 20th Century theology. You perceive liberal theology to be a disaster and so you insist that the revelation of Christ, not human experience, should be the starting point for all theology. Karl Barth 87% Friedrich Schleiermacher 60% Charles Finney 53% Paul Tillich 53% Jürgen Moltmann 40% Martin Luther 33% Augustine 27% Jonathan Edwards 20% Anselm 13% John Calvin 0% Which theologian are you? created with QuizFarm.com

This really surprised me

hysterical, they are a right pair!

LOL... Robert Tilton. I watched him back in the 80's, and he's still going strong.

Reply By: kingbeePosted: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 "You scored as a composite of Bob Tilton, Joan d'Arc & Osiris." like i needed a test to reveal that to myself.

So good to see you around kingbee. and life itself is a test that you seem to be getting a [passing grade}

Reply By: BakerStreetPosted: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 ... Robert Tilton. I watched him back in the 80's, and he's still going strong

gee baker, well read, well educated,.. I hate you! lol

Don't knock it, Woody Allen has made a career out of Jewish self-loathing.



Bah, Robert Tilton is a televangelist. Most often now on BET at night. The fact that I know who he is is more of a shame than a credit.

LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

This is true of the Church. I stand by this. Self righteousness is a sin and works alone are not in God's plan of salvation. Luther being a priest should have known it too and instead falsely charged the Church as being works based...this is the Protestant oral tradition that has been handed down.

LULA POSTS:


KFC, granted, my saying "BY FIRST REACHING OUT" is very poor wording and I've learned anything here on JU it's that every word counts! And this is both a good and important point that you make. I should have said the Church has never taught that sanctity comes through our own justice or works. God first gives us the gift of grace. It follows that we receive from God the grace to pray, From Him we receive all the other graces which are necessary for salvation, either through direct response to prayer, or through the 7 Sacraments beginning with Baptism.

LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

Having restated that, do you still think so KFC?

If you do, KFC, then this is you giving me Protestant oral traditon. The Reformers did more than nail 95 thesis to the door; they threw out the 7 Sacraments as 'works' and quite frankly, I don't know if they thought of prayer as 'works' or not. Never, ever, will you convince me that praying and receiving the 7 Blessed Sacraments are "works" based.

Luther was inordinately attached to his own ideas trifling too hard to make his notion of salvation by "faith alone" by throwing out everything he deemed as "works" based. He convinced himself that man as a consequence of Original Sin was totally depraved, destitute of free will; that all 'works' even those directed towards the good, were nothing more than an outgrowth of man's corrupted will. Throwing out everything that is in St.James, Luther fixed his doctrine of justification by faith alone which gradually developed as one of the central doctrines of Protestantism and was taught and handed down by Protestant oral tradition.

Most Protestants are unaware of any "kinship" between themselves and Luther, but hold Luther's dogma of 'eternal security of the believer, that a person once saved is always saved' at its core with the status of infallibility. Luther's new religion was built on the framework from which no one is permitted to depart and no deviation is allowed. Catholics believe that all faithful believers have moral assurance of salvation in that God is faithful, however, people can remain in mortal sin; revert into unbelief and deliberately renounce salvation. We ask where can you find the words "once saved; always saved"; "eternal security", or "eternally secure" in Sacred Scripture? You can't becasue it's an invention of Luther and the other Reformers.



LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

I'd like to explain what is meant by the Church never teaching works alone.

Grace (Latin, gratia, favor) is a free gift. After initial justification, we can 'grow in grace' 2St.Peter. 3:18, that is we can deepen our friendship with GOd and find new expressions of that friendship. We increase sanctifying grace in our souls that is we deepen our friendship with GOd through the worthy reception of the 7 Blessed Sacraments (which are outwards signs of inward grace ordained by Jesus CHrist by which grace is given to our souls.)They are Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, the Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.

We also deepen our friendship with God through the meritorious actions ("WORKS"--DONE FOR LOVE OF GOD), provided grievious (mortal) sin has not severed us from Christ. "I am the vine, you are the branches: he that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone abideth not in Me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they (angels on the Last Day) shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. St. John 15:5-6. It is the merits of CHrist, the source of all salvation and grace, which give to good works all their supernatural excellence. They are done in His name. It is the motive and the interior disposition of the soul which gives all value to external works, such as fasting, assisting at the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass, and abstinence from legitimate pleasures, Ps. 34:13-18; St.Matt 6:16; 9:15; Acts 13:2-3; 2Cor. 11:27. All of these, without that motive and interior disposition, are mere physical labors. No exterior influence will suffice to make them fertile.

Furthermore, Catholic teaching ascribes no efficacy whatsoever to a mere external compliance with her precepts. The essence of Catholicism (religion) doesn't lie in anything exterior, or in ceremonies or forms. Fixed exterior forms serve also to assure adherence to an important principle, "Let all things be done decently, and according to order." 1Cor.14:40. The Church's ceremonies and rites are largely concerned with the liturgy of the Holy Mass and administering to the faithful the 7 Blessed Sacraments in a way that insures their validity.

But aren't the sacraments, themselves, works, lula? You aren't talking about salvation being made of ONLY works, but works are required, right? Even works of third parties who enact these sacraments. Do you really believe any part of our salvation relies upon mortal men?

You are not fairly representing your CC Lula by saying they don't believe in works for salvation. There are NO other graces. God saves us by Grace period. Grace is unmerited favor. We don't deserve it but he saves us anyway. There are no seven sacraments in scripture either. That is CC teaching not biblical teaching.

I know marriage is a CC sacrament. Marriage is needed for Salvation? Confirmation is needed for salvation? Extreme Unction is needed for salvation? No biblical Lula. Besides, this isn't works? You say no works then you say we need to do these things. Doesn't make sense Lula.

I looked on the Vatican Holy See site and got this:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

no where in scripture is this true. Nowhere does it say in scripture that we MUST be baptized to be SAVED. NOWHERE. We are to be baptized yes. But not to save us. This is a work Lula. For us to do anything is a work. God saves us period. Our first response is baptism as a witness and first act of obedience. It represents us dying to the world and self and living for Christ in the newness of life. We are to become new creatures and baptism represents us being buried and raised up again as a witness to this new life. It's usually done in public places for just that reason.

By your reasoning Lula, nobody in the OT was saved then? That's not true. Paul makes it very clear that Abraham was found righteous before God and he was never baptized. Read Romans 4 and go back to Genesis. It's very clear. Abraham was saved by Grace and not because of anything he did.

You said earlier that the thief on the cross was stuck in limbo. Where do you get that? Jesus said himself..."today you will be with me in Paradise." So if the thief was in limbo, he had company with Christ being there too.

You need to show me Lula, where in scripture Baptism is NECESSARY for Salvation. If baptism is necessary as you say, how did the OT Saints get saved and how did the thief on the cross get saved? Both statements cannot be true. You cannot need baptism and NOT need baptism at the same time.



Exactly. I agree here with Baker, Lula. Mark this one down....LOL.

so what you're saying here is you are unteachable. Com'on Lula. You know the verse...."take heed lest you fall."



hey I already asked you where the book was on this. Nope. The only book I go by is the bible and it's all in there Lula. I don't need oral traditon. You yourself have said you are covered by tradition as a twin pillar to scripture. Not me.



well Lula. He was right. Romans 3 is what this is all about....."There is none righteous not even one." "There is none that seek after God." There's not much room here to argue Lula. NONE is pretty cut and dry. It doesn't say SOME.

Well we might want to throw that out huh Lula? Put that with Abraham being made rightous outside of anything in Chap 4. We need to get rid of that too.

It's interesting that the letter of Romans which plainly speaks of where salvation comes from went to Rome. The book of Romans was what convinced Luther that we are saved by grace alone, by faith alone. It's all in there.



whenever you get into a corner Lula, you pull Luther on me. I don't follow Luther. I see many things Luther believed in that I would not adhere to, like infant baptism for instance. I didn't get 100% Luther on this test on this blog did I? No. For good reason. Luther still had some Catholic ways about him still. I liken him to 1/2 Catholic and 1/2 Protest of the Catholic church. I believe God gave him limited light. He wasn't a prophet with full vision. He was a man for his time.



no, not new religion. He was trying to reform what he thought was deviation in the CC. He had no intention of starting a new religion, only reforming it.



ha! I've given you a ton on this. Does this go back to your very first quote in this entry Lula? So you're saying if I can't find those exact words as you put forth there is no such thing? If that's your criteria...then you're right. But here's a few for you to "chew" on.


"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED. Acts 16:48

"Praising God and having favour with all the peole. And the Lord added to the church daily such as SHOULD BE SAVED." Acts 2:47 Saved from what? Can you get "unsaved?" Can you get "unborn?"

"These things have I written you tou that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God; that YOU MAY KNOW that you have ETERNAL LIFE and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13

"And this is the record that God has given to us ETERNAL LIFE and this life is IN HIS SON. He that HAS the Son HAS LIFE and he that has not the Son of God HAS NOT Life." 1 John 5:11-12

Jesus himself said this in John's gospel:

"That whosoever BELIEVES in him should not perish, but have eternal life." 3:15
"Truly, Truly I say to you, He that hears my word and BELIEVES on Him that sent me HAS everlasting life and shall NOT come into condemnation, but is PASSED from death to life." 5:24.

Now here's a clinker for you Lula. We know Jesus said that all the father gives into his hand he will not lose...that's eternal security for sure...anyhow in the upper room before he was to die he said this:

"While I was with them (Apostles/disciples) in the world, I kept them in your name those that you gave me I have kept and NONE of them is lost, BUT the son of perdition (Judas) that the scripture might be fulfilled." John 17

Now, this is showing eternal secruity for all of his Apostles and disciples that believed on him while he was on earth right? What about Peter who denied him? That came later on that night. According to RCC rules, Peter would have been in mortal sin wouldn't he? Not according to Jesus tho. That's a contradiction right there Lula. One of many.

God is always faithful to us even when we are not. Once in the family of God, we don't NOT become his child. Positionally we are secure. Relationally we might not be in his favor while we stray but like the Prodigal, he gives us only so much rope and then he pulls us back.

ah, but the difference is I love my people baker and am profoundly Pro Jewish.

Just as a side note I have started reading the "LEFT BEHIND" series and am on book one. some scary stuff happening.

What do you mean "some scary stuff happening"?


It's end times "Rapture theology" Tim LaHaye style, so remember it's fiction. It's also really biased against Catholicism, so watch for that. Although, as a Jew, it's quite possible that you may not be able to recognize that so easily.

Yes, it's fiction but it's based on biblical prophecy. I've read almost all of them, didn't read the last few because they weren't out at the time and never got back.

The characters are false, of course, but the whole idea was to make it easier for others to see what's going to happen story form. In fact both LaHaye & Jenkins along with Marv Rosenthal were on CNN for an interview today. That Marv Rosenthal is a Christian Jew who has some very interesting things to say. He puts out a magazine called Zion's Fire and has a place called Holy Land down in Florida. I've been there. It's got alot of Jewish feel to it. He's very interested in the Jews and their future, knowing that God has something very good planned ahead for them.

Yes actually, through a history of world religions class in college.

It's fiction and is based on interpretations and extrapolations. I enjoyed reading the series but it can hardly be taken seriously.

That is really amazing Baker. I got the same thing. But you, a Liberal????   

What is going on Baker, we agree on few things, but to get the same on this issue!!!

Strange things happen on JU, that si for sure.

BAKERSTREET POSTS: But aren't the sacraments, themselves, works, lula?

Yes, the Sacraments were good works of Christ who instituted all 7 of them for the purpose of giving His special graces to us. They are: Baptism--by which the soul receives supernatural life. Confirmation by which that supernatural life is strengthened as growth brings it difficulties and added responsibilities. Holy Eucharist by which supernatural life is nourished. Confession or Penance, which destroys the disease of sin. Extreme Unction which gives consolation and courage at the approach of death. Holy Orders which confers the priesthood of Christ and enable s the Church to carry on His work in the world. Matrimony which sanctifies marriage relationships.


The word “sacrament” in its widest sense means simply a sign of a sacred thing which lies concealed or hidden. Sacraments are signs of supernatural grace and grace is a sharing in the divine nature which come from God.

The Greeks to express the same idea used the word, “mystery”. This we understand to be the meaning of the word in the Epistle to the Ephesians “That he might make known to us the mystery (sacrementum) of his will; and to Timothy, “great is the mystery” (sacramentum), of godliness and in the Book of Wisdom, “They knew not the secrets (sacramenta) of God.” Saints Jerome and Augustine spoke of Sacraments as did St.Gregory who said that such a sign is called a Sacrament becasue the divine power secretly operates our salvation under a veil of sensible things. So the word "sacrament" is not of recent ecclesiastical usage.

A Sacrament is a visible sign of an invisible grace instituted for our justification. It’s a special rite or ceremony which confers spiritual or supernatural grace. For example, Baptism is a visible rite by which the pouring of water on the forehead or by immersion of the person accompanied by certain words, signifies by the power of the Holy Spirit all stain and defilement of sin, both original and actual is inwardly washed away and that the soul is enriched and adorned by the gift of grace. In other words, in the sacramental rite of Baptism, the visible is employed in the work of invisible sanctification. Since there is no proportion between the visible action and the giving of interior grace of a supernatural character, it is evident that God alone institutes the Sacraments because it calls for His infinite power.

BAKERSTREET POSTS:


Man is a creature consisting of material body and spiritual soul. He’s not a disembodied spirit nor is he wholly material. God created us to know, love and serve Him. God’s revealed religion binds us to God and urges us to seek God. Recognizing this, God has so to speak, bent Himself to the level of the nature of man in everything except sin. Our Redemption was accomplished in a visible manner, through Jesus Christ. Throughout His life, the Incarnate God constantly used visible and material things to signify what He was doing. He put clay on the eyes to restore sight, etc. He established the Church as a visible organization as well as a spiritual one.


From the very beginning Christians have always had the 7 Sacraments receiving them from the Apostles who received them from Christ. When Christ ascended into heaven He left His Church to be a channel of grace to men. The fruits of His death had to be applied to souls. The Church performs the outward signs of the Sacrament but has no power whatsoever with the Sacraments’ power of giving grace. It's from the merits of Christ’s death by which grace is conferred to our souls so that we might attain the fullness of Christ, that is become perfect as God is perfect. Of course, for man to attain the fullness of Christ, God could have done anything He wanted in a purely spiritual way so BUT that would not have been in accordance with man’s human nature or with God’s plan of salvation. God decreed that certain visible signs perceptible by men, yet, signifying supernatural grace should actually be the means by which the soul would receive grace.

KFC POSTS:

Yes, KFC, through the seven Sacraments, grace is given.


Christ instituted the 7 Sacraments to provide for the perfection of the soul through supernatural grace. Through His death on the Cross, Christ made it possible for each individual to receive marvelous supernatural life which would enable him to share in the life of God Himself.

This supernatural life is conferred in Baptism. This supernatural life would grow and need strengthening and that is the purpose of Confirmation. The regular nourishment of this supernatural life is in the Holy Eucharist. From time to time, this supernatural life is weakened and stained through sin--even driven from the soul if the sin is mortal; supernatural life is restored to the soul through Confession and Penance. When death draws near, this supernatural life is in need of special strengthening, which it receives in Extreme Unction. But man is not only an individual, he lives in a society. As a being with supernatural life, he belongs to a supernatural society, the Church. Therefore, for the government of the Church Christ instituted the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The Church would grow through marriage and it is the Sacrament of Matrimony which sanctifies the union of a husband and wife in marriage.

KFC POSTS:

The seven sacraments are channels of grace to the souls of men instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ. They are Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance or Confession, Extreme Unction, Matrimony and Holy Orders. For today, I’ll start with Baptism.


Baptism is an outward sign (the washing with water accompanied by the words) of inward grace (re-birth to supernatural life) ordained by Christ.

Baptism forgives Original Sin as well as actual sin, makes us enter into the fellowship of the Christian life and children of God, members of the Church, and heirs to Heaven. One’s Baptism can never be repeated or broken because it binds one to God forever. Our Baptism links us to all other baptized persons in a spiritual sacramental way. By our Baptism, we are sisters in Christ. We are called to live until death in the paschal mystery of Christ. In a mysterious way, we ‘die with Him, are buried with Him and rise with Him.’

By Baptism making us children of God, that means the Sacrament confers a character on the soul defined as a mark or seal which cannot be effaced. Catholics think of it as a real quality which perfects and adorns the soul giving it a new dignity or life.

The ordinary minister of Baptism is a priest, but anyone may baptize in case of necessity, when a priest cannot be there. In Baptism we first renounce the devil and all his works. Baptism is given by pouring water on the head of the person to be baptized or by immersion, saying at the same time these words: “I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

KFC POSTS:


That Baptism was instituted by Christ is very clear in the NT.

“And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: all power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” St.Matt. 28:18-19

“He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.” St. Mark 16:16.

From the day of Pentecost, the birth of the Church, when the Holy Ghost came down on the Apostles, they administered Baptism. Now, St.Peter’s words stung the consciences of the Jews on that day. “Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the Apostles: ‘What shall we do, men and brethren?’ And Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remissions of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts. 2:37-38.

St.Paul was baptized immediately after his miraculous conversion. Acts. 9:18.

St.Peter proceeded to baptize the Gentiles. “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” Acts. 10:47-48

Jesus answered Nicodemus, 3 “...Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born again? 5 Jesus answered, Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” 6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again.” St.John 3:3-7.

By v. 5, By these words Our Lord declared the necessity of Baptism and by the word. ‘water’ it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. See above--StMatt. 28:19.

So now we know that by Baptism in St. John 3:3-7, Jesus said one must be born by ‘water and Spirit’ and ‘born from above’. In St.John 1 and 2, we see the prefigurements of the Sacrament of Baptism and its effects. In ch. 1, the Lord Himself is baptized and we see the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descend upon Him. This is the Blessed Trinity which are the words pronounced in Bpatism. IN Ch. 3, He gives His teaching that we are to be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. And immediately after this discourse on Baptism with Nicodemus we read in v. 22, “After these things, Jesus and His disciples went into the land of Judea; there He remained with them and baptized.”
So, Scripture is clear that Baptism is more than a mere symbol of our initiation into the Body of Christ. It really does what it signifies...re-read Acts. 2:38.

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized in Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with Him by Baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too, might walk in newness of life.” Romans 6:3-4.

Other Scriptural passages to consider are Acts. 22:16; 1Cor.6:11; Col. 2:11-14; Titus 3:3-7; and 1St.Peter3:18-21.


So here is shows that Baptism is a Sacrament that does what it signifies, otherwise the passages would be rendered meaningless. How can we be “baptized into” Christ’s “death” and “raised” into new life by a ritual that does not do what it symbolizes? We can’t.


KFC, you have said that Matrimony is a Sacrament, so I’ll use that parallel. When a man and woman receive from each other the Sacrament of Matrimony, they perform a ritual that symbolizes their union in God. They join hands, exchange rings and vows, etc. each of these elements is intended to outwardly show forth in inward reality. By the fact that they perform the visible Sacramental ritual , there is a real spiritual inward change. The Sacrament not only symbolizes their new union, but it also effects it. The same is true of the Sacrament of Baptism.


The teaching that the Sacrament of Baptism does regenerate the soul, removing sin, both Original and actual, and infuses into it the gifts of the Holy Spirit called supernatural grace (what Catholics call sanctifying life) is universally known from the day of Pentecost through the writings of the Church Fathers and from Scripture.

It wasn’t until the 1500’s and Martin Luther gave the heave-ho to the 7 Sacraments and taught a different Gospel which has been handed down through Protestant oral tradition. It is by this you know come to say things like,

“no where in scripture is this true. Nowhere does it say in scripture that we MUST be baptized to be SAVED. NOWHERE. We are to be baptized yes. But not to save us. This is a work Lula. For us to do anything is a work”.

I have shown that Baptism is a Sacrament instituted by CHrist, that it is Scriptural and I can meet your challenge that the other 6 sacraments are Scriptural as well. It just may take some time.

Lula, I'm not even going there. I have more than proved the point that we are NOT saved by works...no matter how much you write nor how much the CC tells you that you NEED to do A, B, C & D to be saved. It's all about belief, not baptism, but I do understand coming from a Catholic perspective that's hard to let go.

There are NO 7 sacraments mentioned in scripture. There are two mandates, Baptism and the Lord's Supper we are to follow but from a Protestant POV it's much diff than how the Catholics see it.

All I can say, is you have baptism by the Holy Spirit and Baptism by water mixed all together and it's two diff things. We are NOT saved by the baptism of water (works) but we have to be born again or saved by the baptism of the Spirit. Only God does that.

Baptism by water is the first act of obedience AFTER we are saved by belief (Spirit).

Repent....and be baptised.