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Rev 2:8-11

Rev 2:8-11

A Letter To Smyrna-The Persecuted Church

John is now instructed to write a letter to the church at Smyrna. This is what was written:

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Smyrna, a town of about 200,000 in John's day was about 35 miles away from Ephesus in Asia Minor founded about three centuries before Christ by Alexander the Great. This big city was next in line along what we've been calling the postal route or circuit of churches with the first being Ephesus.

This city was filled with pagan temples of idolatry. Among them were Cybele, Apollo, Ashlepios, Aphrodite, Zeus and the temple to Rome (Dea Roma) Temple to Tiberuius. The Dea Roma means Goddess of Rome or Roman Goddess.

So we can see this city, a major seaport, was extremely pagan chasing after many gods. There were many roads in and out of this city both physically and spiritually. Smyrna's allegiance to Rome was strong. It was very a very wealthy city, the most prosperous of that area, with a very active and influential Jewish population.

Smyrna was known for its grove trees. These trees produced a gum like substance that was yellowish red or brown in color producing a very aromatic perfume called myrhh. So Smyrna was well known for its myrrh. To extract the perfume one had to crush the plant and squeeze the drippings out of it. Many think of the Church of Smyrna acted as a myrrh plant. This church, faithful to the gospel, was squeezed, crushed and when so produced a sweet smelling aroma to God as a result of all the persecution it would endure. This perfume, we see in the gospels, was used for both Christ's birth and buriel.

Here John writes they are going to die now and in the future as believers as a result of this persecution now and to come. Notice how this is wrapped up tho. Jesus describes himself as one that lived and died as they also will do. He's telling them it's ok. He will be there with them. He's well aware of what's happening to them. He went first and serves as their example.

The word "tribulation" in the Greek is "Thilpsis" and means "crush, press, compress, squeeze, to break."

This church was preaching the word of God in a pagan city of 200,000. They were pressing forward the gospel of Christ and being persecuted for it. We, in this country, have not a clue as to what persecution really is. Oh, we get a taste here and there, but it's really not even close to their affliction. The more we resist compromising with the world the more persecution we get. Here in Smyrna this church refused to compromise. As a result they received both commendation from Christ and persecution from the world.

The source of the persecution back then came through three sources.

1. Roman Government
2. Pagan Idol Worshippers
3. Jewish Zealots

Domitian was the first Emporer off Rome to institute mandatory Emporer worship. It was required law, once a year, to walk into the Temple of Tiberius, stand by the big statue of the Emperor, burn incense to him and say "Caesar is Lord. This was required.

The second source was the idol worshippers. A Christian, resisting all forms of pagan worship would be subject to ridicule and considered an outcast to society. This was especially hard when trying to sell their wares or do any type of business along the streets of Smyrna. Christians would be shunned as being different from the rest of the community. In order to do business a compromise would have to take place.

The third source were the Jewish Zealots. They were very active and influential. They were subservient to the Roman government and by paying tributes to Caesar, Rome allowed them to practice their faith freely without penalty. For a while Christians were protected as well under the banner of Judaism because many knew that Christianity was born of Judaism with Jesus, the Jew as their Messiah. So both Jew and Christian were blended together until Nero started blaming the Christians for things they were not responsible for.

At that time the Jewish zealots separated themselves by saying "we've never accepted these Christians. They are not part of us." Many false reports started up against the Christians and they were greatly targeted and the antaginism between the two faiths grew. The Christians were being watched carefully. Did they worship the Emperor as required by law? Did they participate in the local parades down the city streets? Did they join in their pagan festivities at all? It was very taboo to be Christian.

Here Jesus says he knows their poverty which really means they were beggers. They had nothing in comparison to the community. The Christian in Smyrna was not materially wealthy rather more like a begger for food. These Jews that were outward but not inward Jews were doing the work of Satan.

What is the work of Satan? Satan is a liar and a destroyer. He loves nothing more than to torture, persecute, destroy the Christian. He'll take it as far as he's able. The war between God and Satan is a spiritual one. We are caught in the middle of a great battle. Here in Smyrna you had to be a real Christian to live under these circumstances. Many analogies are drawn in scripture of a soldier in battle for this reason. Today we sang "Onward Christian Soldiers" in church to remember this.

These were the martyrs of the early church. To be a martyr was to be a witness for Christ. Polycarp was considered the 12th martyr of Smyrna. He, a disciple of John, was burned at the stake after being scalded in hot oil on Feb 23, 156. He was very influential and was brought in before the government of Rome to recant his belief in Christ. They wished him to prove his allegience to Rome by burning incense and declaring Caesar as Lord. He said, "I can't, Jesus is my Lord and I shan't say anything else."

He was taken into the middle of the street and killed for all to see. This was a reminder to those citizens what would be done to them if they too dared to go against Rome by following Christ. Rome drove that gaunlet down deep.

Through all of this Jesus says to John not to fear. Yes, Satan is on the warpath against those who dare to follow him. Satan desires that we compromise our speech and actions. We saw that Ephesus lost their first love. Smyrna never did. How else could they go through all this without a deep love for God. Smyrna is one of the two churches that received no condemnation from Christ, the other being the church at Philadelphia.

The greater the persecution, the greater the purity of the church. Here in this church 100% were on board. Those will not stay that are not willing to sacrifice their all. This church was one of sacrifice. They left all behind and paid a dear price for it.

Martin Luther said that persecution is the mark of a true church. Those that are rightly preaching the gospel of Christ will be persecuted to some extent. They are promised a crown of life and will escape the second death.

War is not without cost. We know that. Just look at Iraq. War is not cheap whether we agree or disagree with what's going on in Iraq we can all agree there is a cost involved. Are we, like many soldiers fighting battles all over the world, ready to give up all as a test of our love for God and to further his kingdom? Just mentioning the name of Christ infuriates the world. It's ok to mention God as in the generic sense, but please don't mention Jesus. During the V-Tech memorial many noticed that while Buddah and Mohammed were mentioned no one invoked the name of Jesus. No one. While His name is not politically correct it is biblically correct.

Even today while we don't suffer even the remotest types of persecution those in Smyrna faced we too will face some backlash when and if we dare open our mouths about Christ. We may lose that contract. We may not get that job. We may get fired. We may lose our friends and family members may distanced themselves from us.

Right now HR 1592 was passed by the House and is now working its way to the Senate. If this passes, and it's expected it will, there may be further persecution for the churches here in this country down the road. If you say anything against anyone's sexual orientation or if someone "perceives" that we don't agree with that lifestyle we could receive up to 10 years in prison. If this passes, the government will have authority to reach into the churches and put pastors or SS teachers in prison.

Are we like those in the church of Ephesus that has lost its first love or are we like the suffering church of Smyrna ready and willing to go through whatever it takes to bring forth the gospel of Christ even in the face of adversity? Christ said that one must be born again to enter heaven. If the church was doing what it was meant to do, there would be a whole lot more birthing going on.

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27“And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28“For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29“lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30“saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31“Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32“Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33“So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.-Jesus in Luke 14:
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Reply #26 Top
Christ did not die for sinners so they could go on being sinners, yet be sure of salvation in spite of themselves.


So does this mean you are not a sinner? Or does it mean you sin but then confess it? Which still makes you a sinner right? Just a confessed one.

Like the poor, sin will always be with us. In my own life God uses it to grow me and teach me things. But according to your dogma if I die in the learning process I am doomed.

Christians who are actually sinners in grave matters are not availing themselves of it at present and if they die without repenting of it, they will not be saved at all.


Grave matters. Sounds serious. What are they? Did Jesus have a list of grave matters? I search my Bible and can't find Him classifying them except to say, sin is sin (rebellion against God). I CAN find many man made lists though.

For example, didn't Jesus say lusting in your heart is adultery? So if a married female Christian is driving down the road and hears about a new movie by Brad Pitt...and then she starts thinking of him, kissing him, whatever and then WHAM a semi tractor trailer smashed into her mini van and she's dead.

She didn't get a chance to confess that adultry...so I guess she's going to hell.

That makes Jesus like the Muslim God doesn't it.....if you're good enough, if you try hard enough, and if God isn't having a bad day, you will make it to heaven.

Saying Christ's death wasn't enough to get me where He wants me is spitting on his sacrifice. To think there is *anything* I could do to earn an eternity in heaven is illogical. Because if I could do it, so could everyone else. Then we really didn't need Jesus did we?

Not.

Reply #27 Top
LULAPILGRIM POSTS:

“He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He who shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death.”---This passage provides us with an entire program for living. Be faithful with an enduring loyalty to the love of Christ. If we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end. Whatever may come whatever may happen, keep the faith no matter how difficult the obstacle, no matter if the ground gives way under one’s feet. [/quote]

KFC POSTS:
The part here that I have trouble with biblically is "IF we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end."


We cannot lose our salvation. It's not contingent on OUR faithfulness. It's contingent on his and we know he's always faithful. Remember Jesus said, You did not chose me, I chose you.

It's not about us being overcomers which is what you're referring to here. It's about his overcoming for us.


So all born again Christians are called overcomers. It's because we are identififed with Christ who did the work. He overcame the world for us. We don't have to. We just need to endure to the end as you said but it's not for salvation. That's already secured.


LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
Yet, your interpretation of v. 11 seems to be that it's not about us being overcomers...it's about His overcoming for us. So, would you explain v. 11 by answering what does Christ mean and who was He referring to when He says, "He who shall overcome" becasue He sure isn't talking about Himself overcoming for us?

"He who shall overcome"---Overcome what?


KFC POSTS:

I explained it already Lula....he that overcomes is he that is born of God. So he that is born of God will not see the second death. We have overcome the world by being identified with Christ.

It all goes back to baptism.


If they should fall or succomb, he is NOT going to condemn them.


Even tho it may result in death, he's assuring them they will not see the second death because they are overcomers (born again believers).


LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
This does not mean that all Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation. That's why I quoted St.Paul Rom. 6:3-4 and 2Tim. 2:11-12.

Yes, Scripture makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation that God will be true to His word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to Him (1St.John 3:19-24), but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.

St.Paul said to the Christians, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in His kindness, otherwise, you too, will be cut off" Rom.11:22-23; St.Matt.18:21-35; 1Cor.15:1-2, 2St.Peter 2:20-21.

Note that St.Paul includes an important condition: "provided that you remain in His kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall." 1Cor.10:11-12.


KFC POSTS:
NO, NO, No....this is not correct. He's not talking to Christians here. NEVER ever in scripture does it alude that we can LOSE our salvation. Never. I already showed you where Christ said he would lose NONE that Father has entrusted him with.



He's not in no way telling godly Christians they better be careful cuz they may lose their salvation. This is nothing but fear that many religious groups put on their people. It's not biblical. The stern warnings in scripture were always reserved for the non-believers not the believers.


This whole dying unrepentent again....is for the nonChristian, not the Christian. A Christian may have unrepentent sin even unknowingly. If she/he dies, he doesn't go to hell Lula. He is safe and secure in Christ.



So far, KFC, I have pointed out the Scriptural passages of Romans 11:13-22, 2Tim. 2:11-13; St.Matt. 5:20 and 7:21 which all clearly teach the truth that Christians can lose their salvation. You, in your well-meaning defense of Calvin’s doctrine, “once saved, always saved” (OSAS), respond to these passages every time by saying, “no, no, he was saying this or that...”. In essence you are interpreting Scripture making that fit with Calvin’s doctrine of OSAS.

Well, here are a few more passages for your consideration. From Hebrews 10: 19-31, St.Paul admonishes the early Christians to purity of heart, to persevere in faith they received at Baptism, not to neglect attending Christian assembly daily or weekly (Acts.2:46; 20:7) where they will listen to the word of God, take part in the Eucharist (1Cor.16: 1-2), offer thanksgiving and receive encouraging hope in the Second Coming of our Lord. St.Paul ends by telling them there will be no forgiveness and no salvation for those who persist in committing sins.

19 “Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which He opened for us through the curtain, that is , through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day draw near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of Judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the Blood of the Covenant by which He was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “the Lord will judge his people” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

V. 26-31, Here St.Paul is referring to those Christians who have already received the “knowledge of the truth” (are born again through Baptism or ‘saved” Christians) and who are fallen into deliberate sin. This passage unequivocally means that no part of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice can help people in this position because they have deliberately and explicitly rejected Redemption and salvation. They can all look forward to just condemnation when Christ comes to judge them and punishment by fire. The fire referred to here has to do not only with God’s fury, but with eternal torment St.Mark 9:47-49; The Apoc. 11:5.

To emphasize the gravity of grievous sin which outrages the Holy Spirit, profanes the redeeming sacrifice of Christ and shows contempt for the very Son of God, St. Paul recalls that under the Mosaic law there were certain sins which on the evidence of 2 or 3 witnesses merited capital punishment. Deut. 19:15-21. This was the case with fully conscious and deliberate and scandalous sins (Num 15:30-31) blasphemy (Lev. 24:13-16, adultery, incest, sodomy, murder, idolatry, and prophecy in the name of other gods. He said if sinners who committed such sins did not deserve “remission”, obstinate apostates deserve it less.

V. 31, This verse rounds off an entire passage designed to inspire horror of deliberate grave sin and to encourage Christians to have a holy fear of God. This fear, includes fear of eternal punishment, and a sense of shame at the moral ugliness of sin, which are characteristics of attrition. But it can also include other dispositions which are proper to contrition, to the extent that one’s fear is motivated by a sense of the outrage done to Christ, who suffered out of love for us; in which case love and fear are linked; in fact, the right kind of fear is filial fear, that of someone who is afraid of offending his father. Sorrow for having offended our heavenly Father is one of the key features of the Law of Christ.

The following is St.Thomas Aquinas teaching on this: “There are 2 motives which lead a person to do good and avoid evil. The first is fear. The motive that first leads a person to avoid sin is the thought of the pains of hell and the Last Judgment. ... It is true that a person who refrains from sinning simply out of fear is not just; but that is where his justification begins. That is how the Low of Moses works to draw people away from sin and lead them to do good...But this method of fear is inadequate; the law promulgated by Moses was inadequate. It relied on that kind of fear to frustrate sin; although it did discourage a person from actually committing sin, it failed to purify his intentions. There is however, another way to draw people away from sin and encourage them to act rightly--the way of love. That is the way followed by the Law of Christ, that is the Law of the Gospel, which is a law of love.”

“Timor Domini sanctus”. The fear of God is holy. Fear which is the veneration of a son for his Father, never a servile fear, for your Father-God is not a tryant.”

Here’s another lesson from 2St.Peter 2:20-22,

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness' than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the proverb. The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”

Here, St.Peter uses 2 proverbs to show the serious situation of those who return to a life of sin after knowing the saving teaching of Christ. These verses can apply to false teachers as well as to those they lead astray. The last state has become worse for them than the first” is the same as our Lord said about someone who after having the devil cast out of him fell under his sway once more. The reference to the dog concerns those who know they sin, but won’t give them up (perhaps because they think that sinning doesn’t matter, OSAS will kick in?). A sow when she rolls in the mud comes out filthier than ever. So too a person who is sorry for his sin, but doesn’t give it up becoming all the more guilty of a greater fault.

Ands let’s not forget the Lord’s own words in the Gospels. In the parable of the Unforgiving Servant, He makes it very clear that one can gain salvation and then forfeit it through wicked actions and remaining unrepentant about sinning St.Matt. 18:21-35. This passage is the perfect parallel for the biblical teaching on salvation. The servant who owes money is analogous to the guilty sinner--you and me. He pleads for mercy to the master how owes the money (who is analogous to God). Having pity on the man, his financial burden lifted (analogous to God forgiving our sins when we repent). However, because the first man acted wickedly toward the second man who only owed him a very small sum, the master reinstated the entire debt. This chilling part is analogous to what happens when a baptized, born again Christian--you and me, refuses to live according to God’s commandments St.John 13:34.

Take our Lord’s final comment v. 35 which points out one can lose his salvation. “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” In plain language, God is going to punish us for our bad works (sins) and reward us for our good works (obedience for His sake). Although there is nothing we can do to earn salvation (and yes, this is and always has been Catholic teaching), Scripture is clear that our faith-and love-filled acts of obedience to Christ are meritorious and pleasing in God’s eyes and He will keep His promise as per The Apoc. 2:2:11; Rom. 11:22-23; 2Tim. 2:11-13, etc. and reward us for them with eternal life. (Additional passages that show a believer/Christian can lose his salvation are Ex. 32:32-33; (cf. Rom.9:3); Ezek 3:20-21; St.Matt24:13; Rom. 5:2, 8:25, 1Cor. 9:27; Phil 2:12; The Apoc 22:19).

As a matter of fact, every book in Sacred Scripture in some way or other suspends the outcome of our eternal destiny based on the duration and the degree of our faith and obedience to God’s will for His sake. Scripture testifies that a believer can fall from salvation he once possessed.

KFC, you say that salvation is a one time event. Redemption and salvation are telescoped together, that Jesus’ death excludes any possibility of eternal punishment for those who “accept Jesus” as their “personal Savior”. You repent, accept Jesus, say the sinner’s prayer, and you are “saved”. It’s a done deal, no matter what happens in the person’s future life from that point on---he’s been “saved” and absolutely assured of getting into heaven when he dies. Once you have accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, you can do anything you want and not lose your salvation has sent people to hell. Couldn’t one justify stealing, cheating on his spouse or on a test in school, or even murder since he feels that no sin, past, present or future can cut him off from God’s saving grace?

Calvin’s OSAS doctrine that one cannot lose his salvation gives a false sense of security and imho, that’s a serious endangerment to those who embrace it. Can you not see this as well?

As we have seen, Scripture doesn’t teach this notion of being “once saved, always saved”. If one turns to a life of unrepentant sin after once being saved by grace, he can lose his salvation. If he dies in this state, he will go to hell. St.Paul said, ‘The wages of sin is death.”

Because of Christ’s work of Redemption all have what is called a moral assurance of salvation, though not an absolute one. We can trust that Christ will never go back on His promise of eternal life for those who love Him. It is we ourselves who are quite capable of throwing away His love and turn away from Him falling and remaining in sin and ruining our opportunity for salvation.

When I am asked if I’ve been saved, my response is a biblical one. I have been redeemed and saved by God’s grace through faith. I am being saved and am, just as St.Paul, working out my salvation with fear and trembling. My salvation now is nearer now than it was yesterday and trusting solely in God’s grace, I pray that I will be saved by remaining in the state of grace and friendship with Him until the end of my life or until His Second Coming whichever comes first.
Reply #28 Top
KFC POSTS:

We are not saved by our good works. We are saved to DO good works. Our works do not save us.


LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.


KFC POSTS: I disagree. It's all over the place. You still haven't answered my question.

If we are to "earn" our way to heaven, why did Christ have to die?



You have connected works with the question of whether or not we have absolute assurance of Heaven. I’m not sure if, by these remarks, you are inferring that I believe good works somehow “earns” our way to heaven or not.

It’s my understanding that John Calvin accused the “papists” of teaching “works righteousness” ---that by doing good works one can earn his way into heaven. This erroneous allegation may have been handed down to you through Protestant oral tradition. In any event, the CC does not now teach nor has she ever taught a doctrine of salvation based on works alone or “works righteousness”.

In fact, the notion of someone earning salvation is a heresy the Catholic Chruch has repeatedly condemned. The Pelagian heresy was condemned by the Council of Carthage in 416 and again in 418.

The Church has always upheld the apostolic teaching that we are saved by grace through faith. Grace empowers us to have faith and faith leads us to do good works. Everyone is offered the free gift of grace, but not all will have faith. Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us to the intimacy of the life of the Blessed Trinity. By Baptism, we participate in the grace of Christ. So we look to God not ourselves as the perfector and author of our salvation.

The only time that we know for sure that we are saved is when we actually enter into our Lord’s presence in Heaven for all eternity.
But the Lord doesn’t desire that we remain passive or inert in this process of our justification, sanctification and (hopefully) eventual salvation. He makes us His cooperators in this process. Let’s follow this through. In Ephesians 2, St.Paul said that our faith is a gift from God. Faith is God’s instrument by which we receive and maintain the grace of our salvation, but notice what this entails. Our faith in Christ is a gift, but yet it is we who must exercise that faith in order for it to be efficacious. Or, to say it differently---God does not have faith in Himself for us. We are the ones who have been enabled by His grace to have faith in Him...and that is something we ‘do’...and it is in that sense, a ‘work’.

Scripture tells us that God’s grace is free to us, but we are called and enabled by Him to make use of that grace. I don’t mean in some bartering way, like I do this; you do that. Rather, as His adopted sons and daughters who are now able to live out our faith by doing what God commands us.

The Church teaches the same as the Apostles did. Namely, that we are all called to have faith in Christ and to be obedient to His commands. Being obedient to Christ’s commands is just as important as coming to Christ and believing in Him. One without the other doesn’t get it. “Why do you call me Lord, Lord but do not do what I tell you?” St.Luke 6:46. Scripture points out that it’s futile for the one who claims that Christ is his Lord and Savior but who fails to act on that belief. It’s the true believer, the enduring, persevering, faithful believer, the authentic disciple of Christ who “comes to me and hears my words and does them.” 6:47.

Consider this reminder from our Lord. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” St.John 15:9-10.

It is upon this Scripture and many others that the Church teaches that in order to go to heaven, one must die in the state of grace. Notice that the Lord stipulates that one will abide in His love, IF one keeps His commandments. The reverse must be equally true. If one refuses to keep His commandments, , then one will not abide in His love. And following that through, if one doesn’t abide in His love--and die unrepentant in that tragic state---one won’t be saved.

Salvation is a free gift of God for all, though only some will choose to embrace that gift of grace, repent and live out their faith through obedience to Christ (Rom. 6:23; Titus 2:13-14; Eph. 2:8-9), not by their own useless “righteous” deeds (Titus 3:5; Heb. 6:1) but out of love for Christ, animated by His grace. “I can do all things through him that strengthens me”. (Phil 4:13). And finally, St.John said, “little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he who is righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil.” 1St.John 3:7-8.

Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.
Reply #29 Top
His death provides salvation for all who are willing to comply with the conditions laid down by Himself.


so, let me get this straight....we need to add to what he did on the cross? He didn't do it good enough? So when he said the work of redemption was finished...it really wasn't? As Tova said....blasphemy comes to mind here.

Christ did not die for sinners so they could go on being sinners, yet be sure of salvation in spite of themselves. People who are still living have not been saved by Christ. Yes, He has paid the price necessary for their salvation, if they choose to avail themselves of it. Those baptized, born again Christians who are actually sinners in grave matters are not availing themselves of it at present and if they die without repenting of it, they will not be saved at all. Those sinners who do abandon their sins, repenting of them, and die in a state of such repentance, appealing to Christ for salvation, will be saved by Him from Hell.


to put this bluntly Lula. This is nothing more than fear taught by the CC. I understand this fear teaching because I grew up with it all around me. It was a way to control the masses. Many many went to their graves believing this so they wouldn't dare leave the Holy CC. It doesn't come from scripture. Only just a quick search of scripture and you'd see that God whose greatest attribute is love more than we can even imagine is not standing over us waiting for us to screw up.

Put this into perspective. Suppose you and your child had a tiff. He then goes off and gets killed before you make ammends....does he cease being your child? Do you erase him from your memory? Curse him? Just desserts? God loves us much much more than we love even our very own children. He expects us to mess up. Our flesh and spirit are at war as long as we carry these earthly bodies.

What do you know about "sealing" in the scripture? Look at Eph 1.

The Father Chooses:

"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." v4

The Son Redeems:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
." v7

The HS Seals:

"In whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy spirit of promise." v13

"Sealed" is "sphragizo" is from the noun "sphragis" a "seal" or signet". This mark (with a seal) is a means of identification...so that the mark which denotes ownership also carries with it the protection of the owner.

The dominant idea of a seal is that it was a mark of ownership. When a person surrenders himself completely to Christ, to belong wholly to Him and no longer to be his own property, then he is sealed with the HS as a sign that he belongs no more to himself but to God.

This seal, unbroken remains a token of safety. The HS is like a deposit or downpayment on our inheritance....look at V14:

"Which is the ernest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of his glory."

The presence of this spirit is God's pledge that our salvation will be consummated.

You actually said it well yourself when you said:

The conversion of St.Peter was the work of grace of our Lord Jesus

We are saved by grace thru faith, and not of works least we should boast.









Reply #30 Top
So far, KFC, I have pointed out the Scriptural passages of Romans 11:13-22, 2Tim. 2:11-13; St.Matt. 5:20 and 7:21 which all clearly teach the truth that Christians can lose their salvation


And I've answered them. None of the above verses speak of a Christian losing his salvation. None. You didn't answer the question. How does one become unborn?

Let's make this simple. I've already mentioned this. What did Jesus mean when he said this....

"And this is the Father's will which has sent me that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me that EVERY ONE which sees the Son and believes on him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day"


You skipped over this as well. When it gets hard Lula you play the elusive game. You move onto other scripture. Everything in scripture on salvation hinges on belief. That's it. Read John 3:16. Read Acts 4:12. It all comes down to one thing...BELIEF.

I absolutely believe that it's the Father's will to preserve those who come to Him.

"Being confident of this very thing that He which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Phil 1:6

God began, God will continue His good work of grace in me until the day that Jesus comes.

TOVA......  
Reply #31 Top
Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.


you are hung up on works Lula. Okay, let's take a close look at James 2:18

"Yes a man may say, you have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

The first part is a challange:..."a man may say you have faith, and I have works."

James replies with....."show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

Yes, he is explaining it but not how you're thinking. He's saying his works are EVIDENCE that he has faith. The other guy has works but no faith. Those are the ones Christ says to..."I never knew you." They were so busy working they forgot Him in the process. They had works but their faith was in themselves.





Reply #32 Top
Have you been saved? Don't you wish you had an assurance of Salvation? "Born again" Fundamentalists and Evangelicals claim to be absolutely sure of going to Heaven immediately after death.

They conclude from Scripture that Heaven is theirs for a one-time simple act of "accepting Christ as their personal savior". The person acknowledges his sins, accepts Jesus, says the sinner’s prayer, and is “saved”. It’s a done deal...that’s true assurance. "Once saved, always saved", no matter what happens in the person’s future life from that point on---he’s “saved” and absolutely assured of getting into heaven when he dies. Jesus’ death excludes any possibility of eternal punishment for those who “accept Jesus” as their “personal Savior”. Once you have accepted Him, you can do anything you want and not lose your salvation... No matter what the person does the remainder of their life---be it living godly or living evilly, their salvation is assured. It makes no difference how one lives or ends their lives.


My understanding of the Protestant doctrine of "once saved, always saved" prompted me to ask: Couldn’t one who has heeded the altar call, announced to the congregants an acceptance of Jesus Christ justify stealing, cheating on his spouse or on a test in school, or even murder since he feels that no sin against Almighty God’s commandments, past, present or future, can cut him off from God's saving grace and forfeit his salvation?
Is OSAS a positive invitation to antinomianism, after all, if one is guaranteed Heaven, no matter what one does, then, why not have it all hang out here below while the having is good? This leads to one of 2 conclusions. Either the person was never saved in the first place, although he thought he was --or--he was saved but can now sin with impunity?


"Accepting Christ" has been explained as accomplishing one thing and one thing only....it makes God cover one's sinfulness...it makes God turn a blind eye to sin. The Reformers saw justification as a mere legal act by which God declares the sinner to be meriting Heaven even though he remains in fact unjust and sinful. It's not a real eradication of sin, but a “covering” of it. It's not an inner renewal and a real sanctification, only an external application of Christ's justice. Fundamentalist's notion that God 'covers' our sins, but does not actually remove them, is an unfortunate misreading of Scripture that found its origins in Luther and has been handed down through the centuries as Protestant oral Tradition. The few times Scripture mentions “covering” sins refers not to the forgiveness of sins by God, but to the forgiveness of one man’s sins by another. Since we cannot actually forgive one another’s sins as God, the best we can do is overlook or ‘cover’ them. The power of forgiveness of sins is not to be confused with the forgiveness of one man’s sins by another by overlooking or “covering” them.

For Catholics, salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. Christ has already redeemed ALL of us, unlocked the gates of Heaven. Christ’s redemption is not the same as salvation rather a necessary prelude. If we are to pass into Heaven, we must be in the right spiritual state...that is, we have to be spiritual alive. If at the time of death, the soul is dead spiritually that is without supernatural grace, and stained with sin, then it is incapable of entering Heaven.

Only souls that are objectively good and pleasing to God merit Heaven and such souls are filled with the sanctifying grace. It all depends on how one enters death which is why dying is, by far, one's most important act.

Every one during his lifetime is given a chance after chance to repent of his sins. God's free gift of Grace abounds if only reached for. God does everything He can short of begging us to repent.

The CC understands justification differently. The Church sees justification as a true eradication of sin and a true sanctification and renewal. The soul becomes pleasing to God and merits heaven because now its actually good. Scripture conceives of the forgiveness of sins as a real and complete removal of them. The words used are “blot out” Ps. 50:3, “clears away” 102:12 ; blotting out Is. 43:25 and “takes away” St.John 1:29 (the KJV Psalm #’s may vary).
Justification is a rebirth. It’s a generation of a supernatural life of grace in a former sinner. St. John 3:5; Titus 3:5. Justification is a thorough inner renewal. Eph. 4:23 and a real sanctification 1Cor. 6:11. The soul itself becomes beautiful and holy. It’s not just an ugly soul hidden under a beautiful cloak. Because it’s holy, it can be admitted to Heaven where nothing unclean with sin is allowed.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
His death provides salvation for all who are willing to comply with the conditions laid down by Himself.


I stand by what I wrote. The truth is that by Christ’s death we are ALL redeemed ---every person born in this world is redeemed-----BUT our salvation is conditional upon our willingness to comply with the conditions that Jesus laid down in His teachings and are so stated in His Good Book some of which I’ve cited at length.



LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
His death provides salvation for all who are willing to comply with the conditions laid down by Himself.

so, let me get this straight....we need to add to what he did on the cross? He didn't do it good enough? So when he said the work of redemption was finished...it really wasn't? As Tova said....blasphemy comes to mind here.


How you can infer-----that what I have written throughout this discussion and most recently the above quote (even without the explanation)----is blasphemy is beyond me and quite frankly goes beyond the pale. Nothing that I have written means ---that “we need to add to what he did on the cross or He didn't do it good enough or He wasn’t really finished with His work of redemption.


so, let me get this straight...we need to add to what he did on the cross? He didn't do it good enough? So when he said the work of redemption was finished...it really wasn't? ---these are your thoughts, your words, your conclusions-----not mine.

Are you getting lessons from the Bible Baptist Church of Nashua, NH? I ask becasue Wilson Ewin has authored a booklet called, There is Therefore Now No Condemnation” and says practically the same as you. He argues, “To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption”. He can say this only because he, like you, confuses redemption and salvation.
Reply #33 Top
LULA POSTS:
Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.


KFC POSTS:

you are hung up on works Lula.



Gee, all I did was post this one paragraph, 3/4 of which is the biblical passage quoted and for this you rail that I'm hung up on works!!! You can't be serious.
Reply #34 Top
LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.


you are hung up on works Lula. Okay, let's take a close look at James 2:18

"Yes a man may say, you have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

The first part is a challange:..."a man may say you have faith, and I have works."

James replies with....."show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

Yes, he is explaining it but not how you're thinking.


KFC, what, pray tell, is my thinking of this passage?
Reply #35 Top
LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
Of faith and works, St.James 2:18 sums it up. “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” St. James is explaining the relationship between faith and works. Both are necessary for saving justification but in different ways and for different reasons.


KFC POSTS: "Yes a man may say, you have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

The first part is a challange:..."a man may say you have faith, and I have works."

James replies with....."show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

He's saying his works are EVIDENCE that he has faith. The other guy has works but no faith. Those are the ones Christ says to..."I never knew you." They were so busy working they forgot Him in the process. They had works but their faith was in themselves.




For a fuller context, let's add v. 17, "So, faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works”. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.”

Another way we can understand the faith/works relationship is that (1) a person's faith (belief in God) must first firmly adhere to revealed truth,(2) that faith must influence a Christian's ordinary life and be a standard against the way he measures his conduct and (3) when one's works are not in accordance with faith, then one's faith is dead and useless.

V. 18 St.James makes it clear that faith without works makes no sense at all. True faith includes not only inner belief, but also outward profession which can be expressed not only by declaration of one's belief, but also by his actions a person shows that he has faith.

Reply #36 Top
Once you have accepted Him, you can do anything you want and not lose your salvation... No matter what the person does the remainder of their life---be it living godly or living evilly, their salvation is assured. It makes no difference how one lives or ends their lives.


Yes, but if you are truly saved and understand the gift that was given you, you in return are very grateful to God and will not try to offend him. You try to bring glory to him, not shame. It's not like you go off and do what you want. No, it's the beginning of a new life....."I am crucified with Christ, it's no longer I who live but Christ lives in me....

Either the person was never saved in the first place, although he thought he was --or--he was saved but can now sin with impunity?


if he's living in blatant sin and not caring about bringing shame to God, then he should examine himself to see if he's in the faith or not. It doesn't mean tho that one doesn't commit one of these types of sins once saved...they may be weak in their faith. While we still sin, we are not living sinful lives purposely shaking our fist at God. We grieve when we do such things, because Christ in us grieves with us.

For Catholics, salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. Christ has already redeemed ALL of us, unlocked the gates of Heaven. Christ’s redemption is not the same as salvation rather a necessary prelude. If we are to pass into Heaven, we must be in the right spiritual state...that is, we have to be spiritual alive. If at the time of death, the soul is dead spiritually that is without supernatural grace, and stained with sin, then it is incapable of entering Heaven.


and this is not totally untrue (ignoring the ALL for now). It's just the way we both look at it. Yes how we are at physical death determines where we spend the rest of eternity. Agree. I'm just saying scripture is clear that belief in what Christ did brings us to a saving knowledge of him and we are "sealed" at that time. Our eternity is secure. "Believe on the Lord and be saved" was the mantra of the Apostles and Christ himself. Not, believe and do anything else. The anything else comes into play AFTER belief, after the sealing.

Fundamentalist's notion that God 'covers' our sins, but does not actually remove them,


Sin in scripture is basically singular. It's our sin nature that he cares about. One sin is enough to keep us out of heaven forever. He redeemed us, reconciled us which means he brings us back to our former state...to be in harmony with him by the acceptance of what his son did on the cross. So now when he looks at us, he sees his son in us. Christ in us. I don't believe he covers our sin....he removes it. In the OT Atonement was a covering for sin...but not Christ's redemption. He removes it forever. That's why he sat down at the right hand of his father when he was done. He was finished. THe OT priests were always standing year after year.

[quote]Only souls that are objectively good and pleasing to God merit Heaven [quote]

there is no such thing.......scripture says very clearly:

"the heart is deceitful above all things; and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Jer 17:9

"there is none righteous, no not one, There is none that understands there is none that seek after God. Romans 3:10-11.

"And you has he quickened (regenerated) who were DEAD in trespasses and sins." Eph 2:1
our salvation has nothing to do with us being good at all....

"But God commendeth HIS love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, having now justified by HIS blood we shall be saved from wrath through HIM. For if when we were ENEMIES we were reconciled to God by the death of HIS son, much more being reconciled we shall be saved by HIS life." Romans 5:9-10.

The work is all GOD. Notice just here how many times the word his is used. It's all about HIM, not us. It's not our work but HIS work.

I stand by what I wrote. The truth is that by Christ’s death we are ALL redeemed ---every person born in this world is redeemed-----


where are you getting this from? What scripture? Was Judas redeemed? Hitler?

Gee, all I did was post this one paragraph, 3/4 of which is the biblical passage quoted and for this you rail that I'm hung up on works!!! You can't be serious.


yes, because not only have you brought up James and works but it's a favorite of the Catholics. I've talked to many and this verse ALWAYS comes up when "adding" to Christ's redemption comes up. I would call it a work. You may call it something else but regardless....if you have to do something it still comes out to a work no matter what you wish to call it.

P.S. I never heard of that church!!



Reply #37 Top
KFC, what, pray tell, is my thinking of this passage?


well since you brought it up in the context of "enduring" to the end and passing perfectly thru the tribulations, it has to do with a works based salvation coupled with the work of Christ on the cross. He did his part...and we have to do our part...right?

I don't believe that...just answering what I think you're thinking.

V. 18 St.James makes it clear that faith without works makes no sense at all. True faith includes not only inner belief, but also outward profession which can be expressed not only by declaration of one's belief, but also by his actions a person shows that he has faith.


YES, we agree totally.

(3) when one's works are not in accordance with faith, then one's faith is dead and useless.


a workless faith is a dead faith. This faith does not bring others to Christ..so it doesn't save, serve, or survive.

But remember this is works...which is fruit. You can still have crappy fruit or not much fruit and still be saved. Remember I said not to get your fruit and root mixed up? Go to 1 Cor 3:10-15 and you'll see an example of what happens to those Christians who have no reward for their works but still receive salvation.....here's the last part of that:

"if any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire."

He may go into heaven a bit singed. God will try our works by fire to see what they are made of. Basically God is saying he knows if our works were to bring glory to him or glory to ourselves. This fire which I believe may have something to do with the eyes of Christ himself will reveal which they are.

"his head and his hairs were white like wool as white as snow and his eyes were as a flame of fire." Rev 1:14.
Reply #38 Top
lITTLE WHIP POSTS:

lula, you talk about 'works' a lot.


Hey, Little-Whip, thanks for reading, your input and I'm glad you're staying tuned.

In my own defense:

Trust me, if I talked about 'works' a lot, you would know it...as that's a fascinating body of theology in and of itself. Truly, I've tried to avoid "works" preferring to keep focused on the question of whether or not there is a biblical foundation of absolute guaranteed salvation.

Go back and check and you will see that it all started with my comments re: Apoc 2:11.

“He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He who shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death.”---This passage provides us with an entire program for living. Be faithful with an enduring loyalty to the love of Christ. If we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end. Whatever may come whatever may happen, keep the faith no matter how difficult the obstacle, no matter if the ground gives way under one’s feet.


It was my use of the word "If" that started this friendly debate (not argument). KFC wrote,
The part here that I have trouble with biblically is "IF we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end."


Once KFC wrote, Our eternal salvation isn't contingent on our own faithfulness followed by if we have to earn our way....why did Christ die? it was clear that KFC had employed Calvin's doctrine, "Once saved, always saved" and Scripture in an attempt to support that. By writing, "if we have to earn our way", the bibical concept of 'works' was injected into the discussion, (which ironically,she indentified).

KFC---
We're running smack into "works based" vs "Faith alone" theology, and I know which side of the fence you're on. I'm on the other.


To which I responded:
"Works based" vs "Faith ALone" concerns what must we do to be saved...and I join with you in not wanting to go there in this particular discussion.

I thought, based on your saying, "we cannot lose our salvation. It's not contingent on OUR faithfulness", that we are discussing whether or not we are guaranteed Heaven?


KFC is correct, for Catholics, St.James has the final word on the biblical concept of "works".

Reply #39 Top
Lulapilgrim posts:
Once you have accepted Him, you can do anything you want and not lose your salvation... No matter what the person does the remainder of their life---be it living godly or living evilly, their salvation is assured. It makes no difference how one lives or ends their lives.


KFC POSTS: Yes, but if you are truly saved and understand the gift that was given you, you in return are very grateful to God and will not try to offend him. You try to bring glory to him, not shame. It's not like you go off and do what you want. No, it's the beginning of a new life....."I am crucified with Christ, it's no longer I who live but Christ lives in me....


Yes, of most of the "born again" believers that I know, I've seen this to be true. Your point is well taken. God alone can see into everyone's heart.

Throughout this discussion, I've challenged only the "once saved, always saved" doctrine and questioned how that could be used as an excuse for sinful behavior and not "born again" believers.

Your reply starting with 'Yes, but" leads me to ask: how can anyone know his salvation experience was real, that it 'worked'? We know that some will lead a good life after being born again,
and some will lead a bad life. Either way, the doctrine seems nearly useless becasue when reflected upon seriously, it seems to make impossible the very assurance it is supposed to give.

For me as a Catholic, I just find it hard to understand how any one who truly believes in God can at the same time believe their sins immaterial. I just don't understand given all the verses that call the whole notion of the assurance of salvation into question.
Reply #40 Top
Your reply starting with 'Yes, but" leads me to ask: how can anyone know his salvation experience was real, that it 'worked'? We know that some will lead a good life after being born again,


How can one know? THE HS living in us at the moment of our regenerated birth tells us so. He comforts us. He's with us every step of the way. His word assures us this as well. In those times when we're feeling seeds of doubt, we open his word and he makes it clear that we are indeed "sealed" the day we accepted and believed him and his work on the cross. The best way to know is by our own lives. We see the changes he made in our life. There should be change when this happens. That's the biggest testimony a believer has. His own life.

"Therefore if any man be in christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away behold all things are become new." 2 Cor 5:17

Salvation brings change. We are regenerated

Our focus changes. Instead of focusing on self we focus on Christ. Like I said before we die to self and live for Christ.

Paul said this to the Ephesians starting in 2:11

"11Remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12that at that time you were without Christ being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.....18 For through him we both (Jew & Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God.

There's a contrast here. Unbelieving gentiles are 1) without Christ-contrast with v 13. 2)aliens-contrast with v19 3) strangers-contrast with v19 4) without hope-contast with v18 and 5)without God-contrast with v18.

Paul's telling them they are saved thru their belief and have been included into the family of God (19). Once in the family Lula, you don't get kicked out.

.
I've challenged only the "once saved, always saved" doctrine and questioned how that could be used as an excuse for sinful behavior and not "born again" believers


I've only met one person who thought he could do whatever he wanted ...sin at will because he was saved by Grace.

But most Born Again Christians grieve when they find themselves in error or sin because they know how much sin separates us from God. While we still sin, we are not living in habitual sin. Paul even said, "I do what I don't want to do and I don't do what I want to do." Living perfectly is a struggle. As long as we are living in these earthly bodies of flesh the struggle will continue.

Paul said that where "sin abounds grace did much more abound" in Romans 5 and then he devotes the next chapter responding to the question "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" If we know that his grace covers all our sins does that give us free license? All your questions about this should be answered right there in Chap 6 of Romans.








Reply #41 Top
I know neither of you will heed what I have to say here, but these endless, ostentatious, and pedantic bloviations turn the curious away with a bad taste in their mouth and do absolutely nothing in the way of leading others towards Christ.


Well LU, that's not what we're doing here. We're discussing...what's wrong with that? Iron sharpens Iron after all does it not?

Why don't you join us?

I mean this blog IS under the religious section afterall. We're having a "religious" discussion and doing so in a friendly sort of way. If it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, then I don't think I need to tell you what the cure is, now do I?

But you are more than welcome to join us in this discussion.
Reply #42 Top
LULA POSTS:
(3) when one's works are not in accordance with faith, then one's faith is dead and useless.


a workless faith is a dead faith. This faith does not bring others to Christ..so it doesn't save, serve, or survive.

But remember this is works...which is fruit. You can still have crappy fruit or not much fruit and still be saved. Remember I said not to get your fruit and root mixed up?




Yes, I think this is true...so I guess I didn't get my fruit and root mixed up that much, lol!

A FEW POSTS BACK YOU CHARGED ME WITH ELUSIVELY GOING FROM ONE TO ANOTHER VERSE WITH SCRIPTURE. You introduced 1Cor. 3:10-15, not I. This could introduce a whole other ball of wax...I hope not.

Go to 1 Cor 3:10-15 and you'll see an example of what happens to those Christians who have no reward for their works but still receive salvation.....here's the last part of that:

"if any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire."

He may go into heaven a bit singed. God will try our works by fire to see what they are made of. Basically God is saying he knows if our works were to bring glory to him or glory to ourselves. This fire which I believe may have something to do with the eyes of Christ himself will reveal which they are.

"his head and his hairs were white like wool as white as snow and his eyes were as a flame of fire." Rev 1:14.


KFC POSTS:
"if any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire."

He may go into heaven a bit singed.


On this we differ just a bit.

Catholics believe that by the time we get into the pearly gates our souls are made holy and pure as snow. There is no sign of sin or the singe of sin. 1Cor.3:15, "...he will be saved, but only as through fire", we think St.Paul refers to the fire in Purgatory which does the final purifying our souls. Purgatory is based on 2Mach. 12:39-46; St.Matt 12:31-32; 5:25-26; 1Cor15:29; etc.
On this passage, St.Augustine wrote "Some will be saved through a purifying fire for a long or short period depending on the extent to which they were attached to things which do not endure."

We also have a slightly different interpretation on man's 'work' together with the meaning of fire in v. 10-14 of 1Cor 3:10-14, "According to the commisssion of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 for no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,--13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it becasue it will be revealed with fire. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward (be saved). 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire."

As you know, the Day, St.paul is referring to is the Last Day when Christ will come in glory as Judge to judge the living and the dead.

The fire can be understood in the context of his metaphor of the building. It means that God's judgment is final; that there is no appeal against it becasue just as fire reveals the solidity of the construction, so GOd's judgemenet shows up the actions of each person in their true light. Also, it should not be forgotten that fire usually accompanies the theophanies, that is the special appearances of God, mentioned in Scripture. It is therefore a way of showing that only God--not man can judge hearts and souls of men.

It's also significant that St.Paul when speaking of retribution mentions fire and this is when some Church Fathers, such as St.Augustine, have seen this as a reference to the severity of the punishment meted out in Hell and Purgatory.

V. 14, In describing the reward given to those who work at building up the Church, one thing comes across very clearly. Everyone will be paid according to his works. If good materials have been used, that is, if he was upright and held on, persevered, endured, to the faith, the reward is assured. But if he used defective materials, that is, if he did not have the right intention, or he did not hold on to the faith, then he will not receive his reward.

Reply #43 Top
LULA POSTS:
I stand by what I wrote. The truth is that by Christ’s death we are ALL redeemed ---every person born in this world is redeemed-----


KFC POSTS:

where are you getting this from? What scripture? Was Judas redeemed? Hitler?



To me, redemption and salvation isn't the same thing.

By "all redeemed", I meant Christ died for all, however, not all accepted the fruits of His redemption.

Remember we mentioned St.Peter's unfaithfulness denying Christ 3 timess? With the helping grace which was offered to him he opened his heart, obeyed its promptings and repented of his sin.

Well, Judas was offered grace in the Garden of Gethsemani, but he resisted it, and therefore perished in his sins.

I don't know whether or not Hitler truly repented of his sins before he died.
Reply #44 Top
KFC POSTS:
our salvation has nothing to do with us being good at all....


If you say so, ....I totally disagree.
Reply #45 Top
KFC POSTS:
Read Romans. It speaks alot of this. We are justified (once) and sanctified (ongoing). Once justified that's it. It's like being set free. The word is "dikaioo" and means declared righteous, not guilty. It means pardoned with no parole (no conditions). Sanctification is an ongoing process. It's like refining.


I agree that our santification is an ongoing process....however with conditions and some of those are found in those Scriptural passages I cited.
Reply #46 Top
KFC POSTS:
Christ said....you must be born again.

Once born again, how do you get unborn?

It's impossible.



If "born again" is Baptism as in St.John 3:3,5, I agree 100%. Once baptized, always baptized. There is no getting un-baptized.

This is what the Church teaches on St.John 3:3,5. Because of Original Sin we are born without grace in our souls, so there is no way for us to have fellowship with God. Jesus became Man to bring us into union with the Father.

He said no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is first born of "water and of the Spirit" 3:5 and this refers to Baptism.
Through the Sacrament of Baptism we are born again, but this time on a spiritual level instead of a physical level. We are washed in the bath of rebirth. Titus 3:5. We are baptized into Christ's death and therefore share in His Resurrection. Rom. 6:3-7.

Baptism cleanses us of our sins and brings the Holy Spirit and His grace (sanctifying grace) into our souls Acts.2:38, 22:16. By our Baptism we become Christians, made a member of the Church and in the Mystical Body of Christ, children of God and heirs to the kingdom of Heaven.

Reply #47 Top
KFC POSTS:




LittleWhip,


Why don't you join us?


Ditto. The water is fine.

Reply #48 Top
KFC POSTS #23

How can I lose a gift that Christ gave to me? Since Salvation is a gift from God, is he going to take it back if I'm not GOOD ENOUGH? How can I lose his payment for sin? Can God declare me guilty after he has already declared me not guilty?




KFC POSTS: How can I lose a gift that Christ gave to me? Since Salvation is a gift from God, is he going to take it back if I'm not GOOD ENOUGH?


Thess are rather odd questions. One can't lose something if one hasn't accepted it in the first place. A gift is freely given or offered....and one has to accept the gift. Since no gift can be forced on a recipient---gifts can always be rejected--even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. Judas rejected Christ's gift and thus threw away his salvation.

We throw it away through grave, mortal sin. St.John 15:5-6; Rom 11:22-23; 1Cor. 15:1-2. St.Paul tells us, "The wages of sin is death." Rom. 6:23.

Over and over again, St.Paul warned Christians against sin. He wouldn't have made the warnings if their sins could not exclude them from heaven. 1Cor.6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21. Remember, he reminded Christians in Rome that God "would repay according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perservance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness." Rom. 2:6-8.

Sins are nothing but evil works.

Reply #49 Top
our salvation has nothing to do with us being good at all....

If you say so, ....I totally disagree.


ok fair enough, but what do you do with the scripture I put down regarding this topic?

"the heart is deceitful above all things; and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Jer 17:9

"there is none righteous, no not one, There is none that understands there is none that seek after God. Romans 3:10-11.

"And you has he quickened (regenerated) who were DEAD in trespasses and sins." Eph 2:1

I back our not ever being good enough with scripture. What are you backing it up with?

Baptism cleanses us of our sins and brings the Holy Spirit and His grace (sanctifying grace) into our souls Acts.2:38, 22:16. By our Baptism we become Christians, made a member of the Church and in the Mystical Body of Christ, children of God and heirs to the kingdom of Heaven.


we've already been around and around on "water" baptism...which is a work. It's something WE do. I do not believe we are cleansed by "water" baptism. We are cleansed by the blood of the lamb.

"......Unot him that loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood." Rev 1:5.

"But if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of JC his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." 1 John 1:7

"How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Heb 9:14.

Your mention of Acts 22:16 says this:

And now why tarriest you? arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

It's the calling on the name of the Lord, accepting his blood sacrifice that cleanses us. It's never about "water" baptism.

"For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom 10:13.

by calling on his name, you're in effect accepting his sacrifice, and by believing you are cleansed and forever saved.

Thess are rather odd questions. One can't lose something if one hasn't accepted it in the first place.


wait....let's back up. Are we not talking about those who were Christians but had LOST their salvation? That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about those that have accepted but may have "unconfessed" sin at their death. Your take has been they go to hell and mine is they are forever saved regardless of what happened on the way to eternity after already accepting Christ as Savior.

A gift is freely given or offered....and one has to accept the gift. Since no gift can be forced on a recipient---gifts can always be rejected--even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. Judas rejected Christ's gift and thus threw away his salvation.


see, you're saying we're justified and then not justified. That's like saying, we're saved and not saved. I don't believe we reject this gift because I believe in election. I believe that it's God who predestined us and we have no choice but to accept. Once our eyes are open, it's a duh decision. Like Paul on the road to Damascus. We've already discussed that none will chose God...none. We also discussed that Jesus said "You did not choose me, I chose you." We just think when we accept this free gift that it us who did the choosing. We didn't choose. He chose us. Rember Eph 1:4...the father chooses, son redeems, HS seals?




Reply #50 Top
Over and over again, St.Paul warned Christians against sin. He wouldn't have made the warnings if their sins could not exclude them from heaven. 1Cor.6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21. Remember, he reminded Christians in Rome that God "would repay according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perservance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness." Rom. 2:6-8.

Sins are nothing but evil works.


See now you're talking again about Christians and sin. So you're back and forth. Is it Christians or non Christians? If we never accepted the free gift we were never Christians to begin with.

Again you're going back to Corinthians which I've already told you they were not doing so well. They were not acting as Christians. This section you quote here says....

"and such were SOME OF YOU, but you are WASHED but you are sanctified but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of Our God." v11

so there's that "in the name" again. They are justified, sanctified, WASHED, or cleansed not by water like I've been saying but by the name of Christ.

the rest are not so yes, they will be found naked and not clothed with his
righteousness.

Now for you Gal 5:19-21 section. Did you not notice after all those sins were mentioned that it said this:...

"they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

The tense indicates habitually practicing these sins exhibiting a lifestyle that shows an unsaved condition.

back to Romans 6:1..."shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

Actually Peter lists a bunch of sins in Peter 4:15 even a murderer. He says:

"But let none of you suffer as a murderer or as a thief or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters."

In that whole section Peter is speaking about us as Christians that we will suffer in this life. Sometimes we suffer because of our own sin and sometimes we suffer because of Christ. So if you are going to suffer it's better to suffer for him and his glory than because you steal or murder someone and have to pay the consequences. HE'S TALKING TO CHRISTIANS. But he never aludes to losing one's salvation by sinning even if it becomes murder....which hopefully is a very rare occurance for a Christian to do.