Rev 2:8-11

A Letter To Smyrna-The Persecuted Church

from JoeUser Forums
John is now instructed to write a letter to the church at Smyrna. This is what was written:

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Smyrna, a town of about 200,000 in John's day was about 35 miles away from Ephesus in Asia Minor founded about three centuries before Christ by Alexander the Great. This big city was next in line along what we've been calling the postal route or circuit of churches with the first being Ephesus.

This city was filled with pagan temples of idolatry. Among them were Cybele, Apollo, Ashlepios, Aphrodite, Zeus and the temple to Rome (Dea Roma) Temple to Tiberuius. The Dea Roma means Goddess of Rome or Roman Goddess.

So we can see this city, a major seaport, was extremely pagan chasing after many gods. There were many roads in and out of this city both physically and spiritually. Smyrna's allegiance to Rome was strong. It was very a very wealthy city, the most prosperous of that area, with a very active and influential Jewish population.

Smyrna was known for its grove trees. These trees produced a gum like substance that was yellowish red or brown in color producing a very aromatic perfume called myrhh. So Smyrna was well known for its myrrh. To extract the perfume one had to crush the plant and squeeze the drippings out of it. Many think of the Church of Smyrna acted as a myrrh plant. This church, faithful to the gospel, was squeezed, crushed and when so produced a sweet smelling aroma to God as a result of all the persecution it would endure. This perfume, we see in the gospels, was used for both Christ's birth and buriel.

Here John writes they are going to die now and in the future as believers as a result of this persecution now and to come. Notice how this is wrapped up tho. Jesus describes himself as one that lived and died as they also will do. He's telling them it's ok. He will be there with them. He's well aware of what's happening to them. He went first and serves as their example.

The word "tribulation" in the Greek is "Thilpsis" and means "crush, press, compress, squeeze, to break."

This church was preaching the word of God in a pagan city of 200,000. They were pressing forward the gospel of Christ and being persecuted for it. We, in this country, have not a clue as to what persecution really is. Oh, we get a taste here and there, but it's really not even close to their affliction. The more we resist compromising with the world the more persecution we get. Here in Smyrna this church refused to compromise. As a result they received both commendation from Christ and persecution from the world.

The source of the persecution back then came through three sources.

1. Roman Government
2. Pagan Idol Worshippers
3. Jewish Zealots

Domitian was the first Emporer off Rome to institute mandatory Emporer worship. It was required law, once a year, to walk into the Temple of Tiberius, stand by the big statue of the Emperor, burn incense to him and say "Caesar is Lord. This was required.

The second source was the idol worshippers. A Christian, resisting all forms of pagan worship would be subject to ridicule and considered an outcast to society. This was especially hard when trying to sell their wares or do any type of business along the streets of Smyrna. Christians would be shunned as being different from the rest of the community. In order to do business a compromise would have to take place.

The third source were the Jewish Zealots. They were very active and influential. They were subservient to the Roman government and by paying tributes to Caesar, Rome allowed them to practice their faith freely without penalty. For a while Christians were protected as well under the banner of Judaism because many knew that Christianity was born of Judaism with Jesus, the Jew as their Messiah. So both Jew and Christian were blended together until Nero started blaming the Christians for things they were not responsible for.

At that time the Jewish zealots separated themselves by saying "we've never accepted these Christians. They are not part of us." Many false reports started up against the Christians and they were greatly targeted and the antaginism between the two faiths grew. The Christians were being watched carefully. Did they worship the Emperor as required by law? Did they participate in the local parades down the city streets? Did they join in their pagan festivities at all? It was very taboo to be Christian.

Here Jesus says he knows their poverty which really means they were beggers. They had nothing in comparison to the community. The Christian in Smyrna was not materially wealthy rather more like a begger for food. These Jews that were outward but not inward Jews were doing the work of Satan.

What is the work of Satan? Satan is a liar and a destroyer. He loves nothing more than to torture, persecute, destroy the Christian. He'll take it as far as he's able. The war between God and Satan is a spiritual one. We are caught in the middle of a great battle. Here in Smyrna you had to be a real Christian to live under these circumstances. Many analogies are drawn in scripture of a soldier in battle for this reason. Today we sang "Onward Christian Soldiers" in church to remember this.

These were the martyrs of the early church. To be a martyr was to be a witness for Christ. Polycarp was considered the 12th martyr of Smyrna. He, a disciple of John, was burned at the stake after being scalded in hot oil on Feb 23, 156. He was very influential and was brought in before the government of Rome to recant his belief in Christ. They wished him to prove his allegience to Rome by burning incense and declaring Caesar as Lord. He said, "I can't, Jesus is my Lord and I shan't say anything else."

He was taken into the middle of the street and killed for all to see. This was a reminder to those citizens what would be done to them if they too dared to go against Rome by following Christ. Rome drove that gaunlet down deep.

Through all of this Jesus says to John not to fear. Yes, Satan is on the warpath against those who dare to follow him. Satan desires that we compromise our speech and actions. We saw that Ephesus lost their first love. Smyrna never did. How else could they go through all this without a deep love for God. Smyrna is one of the two churches that received no condemnation from Christ, the other being the church at Philadelphia.

The greater the persecution, the greater the purity of the church. Here in this church 100% were on board. Those will not stay that are not willing to sacrifice their all. This church was one of sacrifice. They left all behind and paid a dear price for it.

Martin Luther said that persecution is the mark of a true church. Those that are rightly preaching the gospel of Christ will be persecuted to some extent. They are promised a crown of life and will escape the second death.

War is not without cost. We know that. Just look at Iraq. War is not cheap whether we agree or disagree with what's going on in Iraq we can all agree there is a cost involved. Are we, like many soldiers fighting battles all over the world, ready to give up all as a test of our love for God and to further his kingdom? Just mentioning the name of Christ infuriates the world. It's ok to mention God as in the generic sense, but please don't mention Jesus. During the V-Tech memorial many noticed that while Buddah and Mohammed were mentioned no one invoked the name of Jesus. No one. While His name is not politically correct it is biblically correct.

Even today while we don't suffer even the remotest types of persecution those in Smyrna faced we too will face some backlash when and if we dare open our mouths about Christ. We may lose that contract. We may not get that job. We may get fired. We may lose our friends and family members may distanced themselves from us.

Right now HR 1592 was passed by the House and is now working its way to the Senate. If this passes, and it's expected it will, there may be further persecution for the churches here in this country down the road. If you say anything against anyone's sexual orientation or if someone "perceives" that we don't agree with that lifestyle we could receive up to 10 years in prison. If this passes, the government will have authority to reach into the churches and put pastors or SS teachers in prison.

Are we like those in the church of Ephesus that has lost its first love or are we like the suffering church of Smyrna ready and willing to go through whatever it takes to bring forth the gospel of Christ even in the face of adversity? Christ said that one must be born again to enter heaven. If the church was doing what it was meant to do, there would be a whole lot more birthing going on.

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27“And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28“For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29“lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30“saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31“Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32“Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33“So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.-Jesus in Luke 14:
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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC WRITES:
John is now instructed to write a letter to the church at Smyrna. This is what was written:


Smyrna, a town of about 200,000 in John's day was about 35 miles away from Ephesus in Asia Minor founded about three centuries before Christ by Alexander the Great. This big city was next in line along what we've been calling the postal route or circuit of churches with the first being Ephesus.

This city was filled with pagan temples of idolatry. Among them were Cybele, Apollo, Ashlepios, Aphrodite, Zeus and the temple to Rome (Dea Roma) Temple to Tiberuius. The Dea Roma means Goddess of Rome or Roman Goddess.

So we can see this city, a major seaport, was extremely pagan chasing after many gods. There were many roads in and out of this city both physically and spiritually. Smyrna's allegiance to Rome was strong. It was very a very wealthy city, the most prosperous of that area, with a very active and influential Jewish population.


Here is some more history on Smyrna (modern Izmir, a Turkish city). It was founded in the 12th century BC by the Aeolians. Smyrna became an Ionian village in the 8th century, was destroyed in 600 BC by Sadyattes, King of Lydia. After the death of Alexander the Great, it was reconstructed by Antigonus c. 281, 20 stades (a type of measurement?) from the ancient site, and was given the right of a city-state by Lysimachus. Under the Romans, Smyrna served as capital city of Lydia and in 2nd century BC was the center of Hellenistic intellectual life.

Christianity was brought to Smyrna in the second half of the first century. As you mentioned, the most famous figure was that of Bishop Polycarp, whose martyrdom is told in a contemporary document, the Marytrium Polykarpi written about 160 AD. He refused to take part in the emperor-worship-cult which was established in the city by the erection of a temple to the emperor Tiberius (26 AD). Despite the vigorous emperor worship of those all around them, the Church at Smyrna was very assiduous in keeping their faith in Christ as the only one true God.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:



The Apoc. 2:8, “And to the angel of the church of Smyrna write: These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and is alive:”


Christ introduces Himself here with the titles which acknowledge Him as the Eternal Being and the victor over corporeal death 1:17.

Here, in view of the life and death persecution in which the faithful Christians in Smyrna were subjected for their refusal to take part in the emperor worship cult, the Eternal One who is superior to all powers, even death, gives them confidence and courage with this self characterization at the start.
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC WRITES:
9“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.


The Apoc. 2:9, “I know thy tribulation and thy poverty, but you are rich: and thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”


“thy poverty” ----The Church of Smyrna had to endure persecution and deprivation due to the fact that they refused to take part in ceremonies that had to do with emperor worship. The Christians are experiencing contempt and rejection from the surrounding community. Economic poverty in the midst of a rich businessman’s city is the mark of the Church’s position and its standing in society.

‘but you are rich”---Their poverty can become something of great value for God has high regard for the poor and despised. Of being poor, that is nothing to be ashamed of. We glory in it, for man’s soul is demeaned by easy living and strengthened by frugality. Besides, can a person be poor who is in need of nothing, who does not covet his neighbor’s goods and who is rich in the eyes of God? Compared with their antagonists who may appear rich in the eyes of men, the Church of Smyrna, alone are rich in God’s eyes for they possess a treasure which cannot be lost or pass away. What’s better, every threat to this ownership, including that to their life itself by death, has already been changed for them by their Risen Lord into a sure expectation of eternal life.

“and thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.” ----In addition to the poverty, the Church of Smyrna had to bear the contempt and lies spread by certain Jews of Smyrna who were accusing them of being agitators against the civil authorities and against the pagans in general. The Jews of Smyrna who in their rejection and opposition to the “Messiah of God” (St.Luke 9:20) had gone into the camp of God’s foe. The “community of Yahweh” (Num.16:3) later became a “synagogue of Satan” St.Jn. 8:44.

Although they bore the name of the Jews, they were not really the members of the people of God, because, as St.Paul teaches, “Not as though the word of God hath miscarried. For all are not Israelites that are Israel: neither are all they that are the seed of Abraham, children: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called: That is to say not they that is the children of the flesh, are the children of God; but they that are the children of the promise, are accounted for the seed.” Rom 9:6-8.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC WRITES:
10“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’



The Apoc.2:10-11, “Fear none of those things which you shall suffer. Behold, the devil will throw some of you into prison that you may be tested: and you shall have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death: and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He who shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death.”

The Church at Smyrna receives only words of encouragement from the Lord. God has foreseen the situation the Church finds herself in and things will get even worse for “ten days”. Dan 1:2.


“you may be tested”--- The cross and suffering serve according to God’s intentions as a test in which the believer is to prove his loyalty to Him, which is the theme of the Book of Job. In this way, the believer wins the prize of victory in combat, similarly to a contestant in the arena St.Luke 24:26; Rom. 8:17.

“crown of life”---”The crown of Smyrna” is a simile of the crown of laurels which comes from an athletic distinction of that time. This crown is perishable; it withers away. While as a combatant’s prize for the victory of faith God has set up a crown of eternal life. Christ exhorts them to stay true to the very end, even to death, so as to be sure to win the crown of victory. 1Cor.9:25; Phil 3:14; 1St.Peter5:4.

“He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He who shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death.”---This passage provides us with an entire program for living. Be faithful with an enduring loyalty to the love of Christ. If we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end. Whatever may come whatever may happen, keep the faith no matter how difficult the obstacle, no matter if the ground gives way under one’s feet.

“second death” ---is a reference to irreversible, enduring, condemnation. Further on, St.John is more specific about what this involves and who will suffer it. 20:6; 14; 21:8.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Be faithful with an enduring loyalty to the love of Christ. If we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end. Whatever may come whatever may happen, keep the faith no matter how difficult the obstacle, no matter if the ground gives way under one’s feet.


The part here that I have trouble with biblically is "IF we want to be saved, we must persevere to the end."

Jesus said very clearly:

"And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERY ONE which sees the SON and believes on him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up in the last day." Jn 6:39

those that believe he will not lose. We cannot lose our salvation. It's not contingent on OUR faithfulness. It's contingent on his and we know he's always faithful. Remember Jesus said, You did not chose me, I chose you.

It's not about us being overcomers which is what you're referring to here. It's about his overcoming for us. He said this in 16:33

"These things I have spoken to you that in me you might have peace in the world. You shall have tribulation but be of good cheer I HAVE OVERCOME the world.

But you're saying.....John spoke of us being overcomers in Revelation right? So exactly what is the definition of an overcomer? John gives us the definition in 1 John 5:4-5

"For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world and this is the victory that overcomes the world even our faith. Who is he that overcomes the world but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

So all born again Christians are called overcomers. It's because we are identififed with Christ who did the work. He overcame the world for us. We don't have to. We just need to endure to the end as you said but it's not for salvation. That's already secured. It's because of gratefulness love and obedience we do so. Also Paul said this:

"In all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us." Rom 8:37

In the Greek the word is "overconquerer." If you finish the section you'd see that NOTHING can separate us from God which goes back to what Jesus said about NOT losing any.

so now go back to the last part of the verse and let's look at it again...

"he that overcomes (he that is born of God) will not see the second death."

Make sense now? We have to ask ourselves, if we have to overcome by doing something than why did Christ have to die?



Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
LULA POSTS:

The Apoc.2:11, “He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He who shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death.”



KFC POSTS:
It's not about us being overcomers which is what you're referring to here. It's about his overcoming for us.



KFC, we know in v. 11 that Christ is telling St.John to write to the Church of Smyrna and tell them that they who shall overcome shall not be condemned.


Yet, your interpretation of v. 11 seems to be that it's not about us being overcomers...it's about His overcoming for us. So, would you explain v. 11 by answering what does Christ mean and who was He referring to when He says, "He who shall overcome" becasue He sure isn't talking about Himself overcoming for us?

"He who shall overcome"---Overcome what?


Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yet, your interpretation of v. 11 seems to be that it's not about us being overcomers...it's about His overcoming for us. So, would you explain v. 11 by answering what does Christ mean and who was He referring to when He says, "He who shall overcome" becasue He sure isn't talking about Himself overcoming for us?


I explained it already Lula....he that overcomes is he that is born of God. So he that is born of God will not see the second death. We have overcome the world by being identified with Christ.

It all goes back to baptism. When we are baptised (spiritually) we are identified with Christ. We are now part of his body. In the OT when they were circimcised it was the same idea. Their circumcision set the Hebrews apart from the rest of the world. They were identifying themselves with Jehovah God.

Baptize has a literal and a symbolic meaning. The literal meaning is “to dip, to immerse.” The symbolic meaning is to be identified with, 1 Cor 10:1-2. The nation was identified with Moses.

we read there it says this:

"Brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea."

They were united to Moses by identification. So here it's a symbolic meaning. We also are united to Christ by identification. He is the overcomer and we too become overcomers by being identified with the one who overcame the world.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC POSTS:
We cannot lose our salvation. It's not contingent on OUR faithfulness


Our eternal salvation isn't contingent on our own faithfulness? Once saved, always saved! C'mon? Read again what you are saying. Do you think those (most probably baptized) Christians of the Church of Smyrna who gave in to temptation, acted as pagans and emperor-worshipped did not lose their salvation? This is the whole object lesson of the 7 churches, particularly the Church of Smyrna: Endure, persevere, stay faithful to Christ and His commands to the end or lose your salvation.

This is what Christ is telling St. John to write to the Church of Smyrna. They must overcome the trials and tribulations of evil, remain faithful no matter what to the love of Christ and endure to the end, and if not, they will be condemned, that is, lose eternal life with Christ that He who overcame death won for us.

Keep in mind what St.Paul told the Christians of his day: "If we have died with him (in baptism Rom 6:3-4) we shall also live with Him; if we persevere we shall also reign with Him" 2Tim. 2: 11-12.
If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with Him. In other words, Christians then as Christians today, can forfeit heaven.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
our perserverance is EVIDENCE of our salvation. Like I asked before....

if we have to earn our way....why did Christ die?

They must overcome the trials and tribulations of evil, remain faithful no matter what to the love of Christ and endure to the end, and if not, they will be condemned, that is, lose eternal life with Christ that He who overcame death won for us.


this is NOT the God I worship. He knows how hard this all will be and he lovingly helps us thru it. He will NOT condemn those he has chosen. He did it all for us already. Yes, we will have to go thru trials and tribulations but he will supply us with all that we need to go thru them. Here's another verse for your consideration.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is HE that calls you who ALSO WILL DO IT." 1 Thess 4:23-24.

We're running smack into "works based" vs "Faith alone" theology, and I know which side of the fence you're on. I'm on the other. It's not about US. It's all about God.

We must remember there are strong Christians who have a strong diet of the meat of his word and there are also weaker Christians that are still on milk. If they should fall or succomb, he is NOT going to condemn them. They are already saved by the blood of the lamb. Our trials and tribulations are supposed to strengthen us not sink us.



Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Read again what you are saying. Do you think those (most probably baptized) Christians of the Church of Smyrna who gave in to temptation, acted as pagans and emperor-worshipped did not lose their salvation?


Did you not read throughly the main body of my article? I said this:

The greater the persecution, the greater the purity of the church. Here in this church 100% were on board. Those will not stay that are not willing to sacrifice their all. This church was one of sacrifice. They left all behind and paid a dear price for it.


Those who acted as pagans and worshipped the emperor would not have stayed with this church. That's what persecution does. It separates the wheat from the chaff. When the gap widens they jump to the other side of the fence.

So I'm only referring to the "saved" Christians. That is who Christ is addressing here. He's talking to the "church" The "church" is the one that is representing him. This church is representing him correctly...doing so well he has no condemnation for them.



Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’


KFC POSTS:

So I'm only referring to the "saved" Christians. That is who Christ is addressing here. He's talking to the "church" The "church" is the one that is representing him. This church is representing him correctly...doing so well he has no condemnation for them.




Cannot this to be taken as both an encouragement to those faithful of the Church of Smyrna as well as an admonition or warning of what will happen to those who aren't faithful through the trials, tribulation and persecution?
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC POSTS:
our perserverance is EVIDENCE of our salvation


I agree. Our perseverance is evidence of our salvation, not assurance of it, even for so-called "saved" CHristians.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC POSTS:
if we have to earn our way....why did Christ die?


We're running smack into "works based" vs "Faith alone" theology, and I know which side of the fence you're on. I'm on the other.


"Works based" vs "Faith ALone" concerns what must we do to be saved...and I join with you in not wanting to go there in this particular discussion.


I thought, based on your saying, "we cannot lose our salvation. It's not contingent on OUR faithfulness", that we are discussing whether or not we are guaranteed Heaven?
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Cannot this to be taken as both an encouragement to those faithful of the Church of Smyrna as well as an admonition or warning of what will happen to those who aren't faithful through the trials, tribulation and persecution?


We have to remember that those NOT faithful are NOT Christians. Its not like he's saying...."well if you come thru the awful things I'm going to throw at you then you're in." We are not saved by making it thru trials and tribulations. We are saved by the blood of Christ shed on the cross. Bigg diff.

We are not saved by our good works. We are saved to DO good works. Our works do not save us. Our works serve as evidence that we have been touched by God.

This is all a promise that we will have trials, he went before us and is now alive. We too will be alive regardless of the trials we endure. Even tho it may result in death, he's assuring them they will not see the second death because they are overcomers (born again believers).

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC POSTS:
But you're saying.....John spoke of us being overcomers in Revelation right? So exactly what is the definition of an overcomer? John gives us the definition in 1 John 5:4-5

"For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world and this is the victory that overcomes the world even our faith. Who is he that overcomes the world but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

So all born again Christians are called overcomers. It's because we are identififed with Christ who did the work. He overcame the world for us. We don't have to. We just need to endure to the end as you said but it's not for salvation. That's already secured.



You are correct, our salvation is about baptism and it's about our faith too. In 1St.John 5:4-5 notice the words, our faith.

If we go to the beginning of Ch. 5 and read V. 1-5 we'll see they focus on faith in Jesus Christ. These opening verses of St.John point to the consequences of faith: he who believes in Christ is a child of God; he loves God and men, meaning his brothers; he keeps the commandments, and shares in Christ's victory over the world.

V.4, "this victory that overcomes the world, our faith", means that faith in Jesus is of crucial importance becasue through it every baptized person is given a share in Christ's victory. Jesus has overcome the world by His death and Resurrection, and the Christian (who through faith becomes a member of Christ)has access to all the graces necessary for coping with temptations and enduring to the end.

This does not mean that all Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation. That's why I quoted St.Paul Rom. 6:3-4 and 2Tim. 2:11-12.

Yes, Scripture makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation that God will be true to His word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to Him (1St.John 3:19-24), but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.

St.Paul said to the Christians, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but GOd's kindness to you, provided you remain in His kindness, otherwise, you too, will be cut off" Rom.11:22-23; St.Matt.18:21-35; 1Cor.15:1-2, 2St.Peter 2:20-21.

Note that St.Paul includes an important condition: "provided that you remain in His kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall." 1Cor.10:11-12.

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
You are correct, our salvation is about baptism and it's about our faith too. In 1St.John 5:4-5 notice the words, our faith.


yes, look at it. He's the one responsible for OUR FAITH. It's not us. "All have gone astray, there is none rightesous no not one." says Paul in Romans. Our works are as filthy rags says God more than once in scripture.

In Romans 4 Paul gives two examples of those that are saved without works...Abraham and David. It's very clear that we are considered righteous apart from works. He imputes (adds to one's account) his son's righteousness to us.

Note that St.Paul includes an important condition: "provided that you remain in His kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall." 1Cor.10:11-12.


NO, NO, No....this is not correct. He's not talking to Christians here. NEVER ever in scripture does it alude that we can LOSE our salvation. Never. I already showed you where Christ said he would lose NONE that Father has entrusted him with.

I don't have "provided that you remain in his kindess." in this passage at all.

Back to 1 Cor 10. Read the whole chapter in context. I think you'll be able to figure it out if you can put your CC commentaries down for a minute. Read v5 which says many of them God was not pleased for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

He's using the nation Israel as an illustration of some who were disapproved. They were idolaters and drunkards. They were not godly to begin with. He's basically saying just because you are going to church, just because you call yourself Christian like our fathers called themselves Jews examine your life. Are you murmuring? Are you immoral? Are you tempting God with your actions? Well if you think you're upright, you may want to re-think yourselves. You're headed for a fall because you are not on solid ground.

Remember who he's speaking to. He's speaking to the Corinthians who had many problems going on. Problems included divisions in the church 1:11, immorality Chap 5; 6:9-20. Aberrant beliefs and practices of an astonishing variety characterized this church. Corinth was noted for everything sinful.

He's not in no way telling godly Christians they better be careful cuz they may lose their salvation. This is nothing but fear that many religious groups put on their people. It's not biblical. The stern warnings in scripture were always reserved for the non-believers not the believers.



Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
This does not mean that all Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation. That's why I quoted St.Paul Rom. 6:3-4 and 2Tim. 2:11-12.


actually this one in Timothy doesn't back you up very well. This is saying that even when we are not faithful he remains faithful. This is one of the best eternal security scriptures out there.

What Timothy was saying was even when we are weak, he remains faithful to us even if we deny him in our weakness. This statement of the consistency of God's character is a strong promise to the believers of the security of his salvation even though he may lose all rewards (1 Cor 3:15).

We don't lose our salvation but we can lose our rewards, the crowns that are promised to us as we do what we were put here to do.

Two examples come to mind quickly. One is Adam and Eve and the other is Peter. All three denied him or rebelled against him. But God remained faithful to them. They had to pay the consequences, yes, but he never took their position in him away from them. Never does he do this. With the nation Israel He was constantly giving them chances over and over again. Now they are paying the consequences as he allows them to be disciplined, but he will once again turn back to them. They have never lost their position in him.

I would like you to quote me one example from scripture where God did such a thing.

Once in the family God doesn't disown us any more than we disown our children for doing badly.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
LULA POSTS:
This does not mean that all Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation. That's why I quoted St.Paul Rom. 6:3-4 and 2Tim. 2:11-12.


KFC POSTS:
actually this one in Timothy doesn't back you up very well. This is saying that even when we are not faithful he remains faithful. This is one of the best eternal security scriptures out there.

What Timothy was saying was even when we are weak, he remains faithful to us even if we deny him in our weakness. This statement of the consistency of God's character is a strong promise to the believers of the security of his salvation even though he may lose all rewards (1 Cor 3:15).



On the contrary, St. Timothy does a great job teaching that we do not have an absolute assurance of salvation. Let's look at it.

2Tim 2:11-13, "The saying is sure:
If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful--for He cannot deny Himself."

Note the verses begin with the word, "If". If we do something, i.e. endure or deny Him, then "x" happens as the result. As you can plainly see, the result is not always salvation.

It is as you say, that He will remain faithful to us even if we deny him in our weakness. However, according to Timothy, if we deny Him, He will deny us and that means we will not be with Him in Heaven.

v. 12 deals with the stark choice the Christian has to make in the face of difficulties--endurance or denial of Him.
Now, take this same verse and apply that negatively. If we fail to endure, that is to persevere in love, then we won't reign with Him. Look again above, we spoke of perseverance as evidence of our salvation, just not assurance of it and Timothy bears this out.

Once in the family God doesn't disown us any more than we disown our children for doing badly.


True, God is faithful and waits patiently, like the father of the progidal son, for our return to Him. He gives us all that we need to return our infidelity to His fidelty.

However, when we sin and do not repent and change our evil ways, we separate ourselves from God; we condemn ourselves. This is when v. 11 kicks in. It says if we died with Him. Well, if we die in a state of unrepentant sin, then we died without Him, and so we shall not reign with Him. If we die unrepentant and without Him, then we forfeit our salvation. Or, in the case of Christ's Second Coming when He will judge the living and the dead---if we are unrepentant at the moment that He comes again, then we will forfeit our salvation.




Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC POSTS:
Two examples come to mind quickly. One is Adam and Eve and the other is Peter. All three denied him or rebelled against him. But God remained faithful to them. They had to pay the consequences, yes, but he never took their position in him away from them. Never does he do this.


Wait a minute. Adam and Eve both sinned, yes. But what happened after this? As I read it, they were ashamed of themselves for what they had done. They didn't remain hardened in their sin, rather they confessed their guilt and repented of it. God punishes man in mercy and imposes temporal punishment on him so as to save his eternal soul.

St.Peter's sin was a grevious one. Out of fear of man, St.Peter lied 3 times and denied his faith. The sin of St.Peter grew and became more grevious every time he committed it. He didn't sin from malice,but from weakness and panic and he didn't lose his faith even though he outwardly denied it. St.Peter fell so hard becasue he didn't avoid the occasion of sin. He would not have fallen so low if he had left the company of the enemies of Christ.

Our Lord had said to him a short time before this when they were walking up the MOunt of Olives "Without me you can do nothing." St.Peter fell becasue of over self-confidence and by neglecting our Lord's exhortation, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

This all should be a warning to us to avoid bad companions and the occasion of sin, to remember our weaknesses and not to trust too much in ourselves...and most to ask humbly for the assistance of grace whenever we find ourselves in a weak moment. After all, did not our Lord teach us to pray, "Lead us not into temptation"?

The conversion of St.Peter was the work of grace of our Lord Jesus. It was at the moment when He looked upon his unfaithful Apostle that gave St.Peter the light of saving grace to see how greviously he had sinned. He opened his heart to it, obeyed its promptings and was grieved so much that bitter tears of contrition fell and he was sorry purely becasue he had offended his Lord and because his sin had increased His suffering. So St.Peter repented of his sin.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
yes, I don't disagree with anything in your last posting Lula. What I'm saying is that a Christian (true one) will always do what Peter did. The reason for this is as you said very well..


The conversion of St.Peter was the work of grace of our Lord Jesus


that's it in a nutshell. So as Christians we may fail, we may fall, we may be weak but we are His. We will not shake our fist at God in rebellion. Those that do were never Christians in the first place. So they didn't lose their salvation. They never had it in the first place.

Just like our children are ours. They may fail us. They may be weak in their honoring and loving us but that doesn't make them any less our own children.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Note the verses begin with the word, "If". If we do something, i.e. endure or deny Him, then "x" happens as the result. As you can plainly see, the result is not always salvation.

It is as you say, that He will remain faithful to us even if we deny him in our weakness. However, according to Timothy, if we deny Him, He will deny us and that means we will not be with Him in Heaven.


yes, but this is speaking of non Christians. A Christian is not going to deny God not in the sense as in here. This denial here is one that leads to hell. They never were regenerated. There is no becoming a Christian and then backing out. It doesn't even remotely say that here. Those who deny are professing people who will in turn be disowned by Him (Matt 10:33 2 John 9).

However, when we sin and do not repent and change our evil ways, we separate ourselves from God; we condemn ourselves. This is when v. 11 kicks in. It says if we died with Him. Well, if we die in a state of unrepentant sin, then we died without Him, and so we shall not reign with Him. If we die unrepentant and without Him, then we forfeit our salvation. Or, in the case of Christ's Second Coming when He will judge the living and the dead---if we are unrepentant at the moment that He comes again, then we will forfeit our salvation.


Yes when we do these things the relationship suffers...but we don't ever lose our salvation. When Jesus died, he died for all our sins, past, present and future. When it says die with him it's talking about living for him now and dying to self. It has nothing to do with that last minute of death which is what I'm thinking you're thinking? Not at all. It's death to the world...alive to Christ.

Paul said in Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ lives in me and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me."

Read Romans. It speaks alot of this. We are justified (once) and sanctified (ongoing). Once justified that's it. It's like being set free. The word is "dikaioo" and means declared righteous, not guilty. It means pardoned with no parole (no conditions). Sanctification is an ongoing process. It's like refining.

"if the son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." John 8:36

This whole dying unrepentent again....is for the nonChristian, not the Christian. A Christian may have unrepentent sin even unknowingly. If she/he dies, he doesn't go to hell Lula. He is safe and secure in Christ.

I believe you have your fruit and root mixed up here Lula. They are two completly diff things. One is a one time deal (being rooted) and the other is ongoing (being fruitful).

Just like your tree in the backyard. Some years it gives good fruit and other times not so good. You don't tear down the tree...you prune it so it will bear more fruit the next time.




Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

This does not mean that all Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation. That's why I quoted St.Paul Rom. 6:3-4 and 2Tim. 2:11-12.

Yes, Scripture makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation that God will be true to His word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to Him (1St.John 3:19-24), but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.

In Romans 11: 22-23, St.Paul said to the Christians, "See, then, the goodness and severity of God: severity to those who are fallen; but GOd's goodness to you, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise, you too, will be cut off". Also St.Matt.18:21-35; 1Cor.15:1-2, 2St.Peter 2:20-21.

Note that St.Paul includes an important condition: "if thou abide in goodness" He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns the Corinthians, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall." 1Cor.10:11-12. [/quote]


NO, NO, No....this is not correct. He's not talking to Christians here. NEVER ever in scripture does it alude that we can LOSE our salvation. Never. I already showed you where Christ said he would lose NONE that Father has entrusted him with.


Remember who he's speaking to. He's speaking to the Corinthians who had many problems going on. Problems included divisions in the church 1:11, immorality Chap 5; 6:9-20. Aberrant beliefs and practices of an astonishing variety characterized this church. Corinth was noted for everything sinful.

He's not in no way telling godly Christians they better be careful cuz they may lose their salvation. ...



Yes, Scripture makes it clear that Christians that God will be true to His word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to Him (1St.John 3:19-24), but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.

I think that 2Tim 2:11-13 and Roman 11:22-23 are meant for everyone of us to heed not just non-CHristians. Whoever believes in Christ must accept every single thing He taught, and try to fulfill what He commanded. For example, He said, "Unless your justice abound more than the Scribes and the Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." St.Matt.5:20. It seems to me that's a good lesson for us to be aware of. It applies to us today. ONe could believe in Christ, yet make no effort to aquire the prescribed justice. That is why Christ said, "Not every one who cries" 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven." 7:21.

It is evident that from these passages that all professed baptized, born again Christians are not guaranteed Heaven. It is a mistake to attach an unconditional and absolute sense of salvation to all Christians, regardless of how they live or in the state of their soul when they die.


Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
but Scripture does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of Heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of Heaven.


I disagree. It's all over the place. You still haven't answered my question.

If we are to "earn" our way to heaven, why did Christ have to die?

Christ said....you must be born again.

Once born again, how do you get unborn?

It's impossible.

There's a simple plan for sinful man. It goes like this:

We are guilty
Our guilt earned us death
Christ died in our place
We admit we are guilty
We trust that Christ was punished in our place
We are declared "not guilty."
That's it!!

How can I lose a gift that Christ gave to me? Since Salvation is a gift from God, is he going to take it back if I'm not GOOD ENOUGH? How can I lose his payment for sin? Can God declare me guilty after he has already declared me not guilty?

From the historical vantage point of the Cross all of our sins were YET to be committed. If He died for one of them He died for all of them. He took upon Himself every single one of our sins. What is going to cause God to reverse his verdict of not guilty? NOT A THING!

Think about this:

If Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost, and yet we can somehow become unsaved and therefore undo what Christ came to do, would it not be wise for God to take us on to heaven the moment we are saved in order to insure we make it? Isn't it unnecessarily risky to force us to stay here?

Hate to tell ya Lula, but this dangerous doctrine comes from the pit of hell. God wants us to be safe and secure in him. Satan, our enemy is a liar and seeks nothing more than to sow seeds of doubt in our minds. Look what he said to Adam and Eve about the goodness of God. He deceived them also with his cunning untrue words about God.

The whole discussion boils down to this one question, Was the blood of Christ adequate? Satan says no. It's blasphemy to say so.

I guess you haven't read Hebrews yet because this book is filled with scripture that shows we have eternal security in our great HP.



Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
He said, "Unless your justice abound more than the Scribes and the Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." St.Matt.5:20. It seems to me that's a good lesson for us to be aware of.


no, what he was saying was, and the people understood clearly, that this is impossible. The Pharisees were "the godly ones." How could the simple people be more pius than them? It was an impossible thought. Scripture is very clear....there is no one righteous none. In Isaiah it says our rightesousness is like filthy rags. Even the best of us cannot enter heaven. It's only by Christ's blood are we cleansed. Then we are declared righteous not for what we have done, but all because of what Christ has done for us.

ONe could believe in Christ, yet make no effort to aquire the prescribed justice. That is why Christ said, "Not every one who cries" 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven." 7:21


no, what he's saying in that verse is there will be many WORKING their way in Lula just like you're saying and they will be found guilty anyway. Their works were not good enough. They never are good enough. We cannot do anything good enough to get into heaven. They believed in Christ maybe...so don't the demons. That means nothing. They didn't think Christ's atonement was good enough so they "added" their own works thinking that would gain them entrance only to find out that they were wrong. This is the saddest verse in all of scripture I believe.

Think about this:

Does it make any sense to say that salvation is offered as a solution for our sin and then turn around and teach that salvation can be taken away because of our sin as well?

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top

Does it make any sense to say that salvation is offered as a solution for our sin and then turn around and teach that salvation can be taken away because of our sin as well?




Catholic doctrine teaches that Christ died for the purpose of saving sinners. But note this. Christ did not die to save sinners unconditionally, as if His death means that all sinners are necessarily saved. His death provides salvation for all who are willing to comply with the conditions laid down by Himself.

Did Christ die for you and me and each one of us personally? Yes, He did. But He didn't die to force salvation upon anybody. He did die to offer the means of salvation to all mankind. In that sense, His death will avail us of salvation if we comply with the conditions that He prescribed. Look at it this way. It is as if you were in great debt and about to lose everything and I deposited money in the bank to cover that and a checkbook for you to draw the money out. I could say that I had done enough to save you from becoming homeless. But if you refused to use the checks, or walk to the bank, despising my arrangements, you would not be saved from homelessness. That would be your own fault, and no proof that my provision for you was not efficacious in itself.

Christ did not die for sinners so they could go on being sinners, yet be sure of salvation in spite of themselves. People who are still living have not been saved by Christ. Yes, He has paid the price necessary for their salvation, if they choose to avail themselves of it. Those baptized, born again Christians who are actually sinners in grave matters are not availing themselves of it at present and if they die without repenting of it, they will not be saved at all. Those sinners who do abandon their sins, repenting of them, and die in a state of such repentance, appealing to Christ for salvation, will be saved by Him from Hell.