Thank you, Moderateman, for posting the article. It's resulted in some thought provoking discussion and this is good.

Particularly in reference to the Christians, I take exception to your assertion of "no wonder that Christian and Muslims hate Jews so much". I deny that Christians,in general,hate Jews.



I have every confidence that the Biblical verses that you quote are 100% inerrant as they were written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The problems that inevitably arise concern the mis-interpretation of those Biblical verses resulting in erroneous commentary and conclusions.

You say the Antichrist is a Jew and proceed to prove that by first quoting Daniel's prophecy 11:37.

"Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers . . .nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all". Daniel 11:37

My Douay Rheims version has Daniel 11:37 a little differently. "And he shall make no account of the God of his fathers; and he shall follow the lust of women and he shall not regard any gods: for he shall rise up against all things."

What does this verse mean? What was happening and who was Daniel referring to? The angel was telling Daniel of many things to come with regard to the Persian and Grecian kings and the Hellenistic Wars. The entire chapter is concerned with the history of the worldly kingdoms from the time of Cyrus to the defeat of the tyrant Antiochus Epiphanes. Daniel describes the career of Antiochus IV, a most cruel and despised king and his persecution. Verse 37 which is the one quoted above is about Antiochus and how instead of regarding gods such as Apollo, he actually identified himself with Zeus,the god of their fortress of Rome, and of Jupiter, the gods of strongholds.

V. 21 tells us that Antiochus was the one despised and not received for king. Antiochus was considered by the early Chruch writers as a figure or type of Antichrist.

Here, Daniel's prophecy tell us nothing about the Antichrist being a Jew. Rather, it describes how the Antichrist (whether man or a system) is going be set fraudently be a tryantically cruel to the people as Antiochus was.

The next thing that is said is that the Antichrist is from the tribe/region of Dan and a rather bad translation of Jeremias 8:15-17 is quoted (to prove that point).

"We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein. For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD". Jeremiah 8:15-17

Yet, Jeremais 8:15-17 is not about the Antichrist being from the tribe of Dan. From chapter 2 on through, Jeremias expostulates with the Israelites for their ingratitude and infidelity to God's commands in the Old Covenant Mosaic laws. He invites those who have rebelled against Him to return with a promise to receive them if they do. He admonishes them to sincere repentance and warns of God's punishment and judgment to those who persist in sin. Chapter 8 concerns all of the evils that fall upon the Israelites for their impenitence. Yes, the word "Dan" is in there, but I am at a loss for understanding how that relates to the Antichrist being from the tribe of Dan.


ARQUONZO POSTS:


I tend to understand your sigh when it comes to Nero! What do we know of Nero? Look to the Book of Daniel and his prophecy. Many try to understand Daniel's reference to a 'little horn" as a symbol of Antiochus becasue another little horn mentioned in a later vision does refer to him who reigned during the 3rd kingdom about 2 centuries before Christ. The little horn hear points to Caesar Nero. Nero ruled Rome from 54-68 AD and the details of Daniel's vision fit him perfectly. Nero blasphemed against God by aggressivley enforcing emperor worship. Dan.7:20,25. The "little horn" was accused of "attempting to change the times and the law." 7:25.

The fierce and sustained trial of the Christian Chruch started when the little horn, Nero, needed a scapegoat for the fire that ravaged Rome. His persecution continued for about 3 years until his attention was diverted to the Jewish-Roman war.

Just as Daniel predicted, Nero declared war in Feb. of 67 AD and
in August of 70 AD, the Temple of Jerusalem fell before the Roman army of Titus. The Temple was torched and dismantled. The destruction of the Temple was an end to Biblical Judaism. Is. 2:2-5, 56. The Jewish-Roman War lasted 42 months, precisely 3 and one-half years. Jerusalem was to "be given into his hand for a time, two times, and half a time."


We can get a kind of a portrait of the Antichrist and the signs of his arrival if we put together Sacred Scripture and interpret that properly. The word "Antichrist" occurs only in 1St.John2:18-23. He warns the people against false teachers and speaks of several ANtichrists and he carefully distinguishes between the many and the one principled agent. "Antichrist is coming, so even now many antichrists have arisen."


What Scripture isn't so clear on is the doctrine of the Antichrist. It remains a great mystery. Cardinal Newman in treating the prophecy of Revelation (The Book of the Apocalypse), that Revelation does not intend to provide us with complete answers in all details but purposely leaves truths revealed to some aura of mystery the better to purify our faith in the fires of trial and to keep us alert, fighting and faithful in the uncertainity of expectation.

The doctrine of Antichrist, which is the mystery of iniquity and the mystery of Satan, might be more of an ongoing system (which includes people)that denies Absolute Truth. All the enemies of God bear the characteristic mark of the Antichrist. That brand is their denial that Our Lord Jesus Christ is God made man who came to earth and redeemed mankind. St.John the Evangelist states that the denial of Christ is aptly called the spirit of the Antichrist.

To me, Antichrist can only be understood in the context of total war being waged in human history over men in which God, Christ, and the Chruch are being attacked by Satan, his devils and their earthly accomplices. Whoever cooperates in the Antichrist work, becomes an agent culpubly involved in Satan's plan to scuttle God's plan for the salvation of mankind.

Now, I think this Satanic enterprise has been going on since the fall of angels and the fall of mankind from the day of Creation. Every man whether they know it or not, like it or not, accept it or not, find themselves in the heart of this struggle between good and evil.

I agree with Elie that the Antichrist is one person and will be from satan.

Now, I think this Satanic enterprise has been going on since the fall of angels and the fall of mankind from the day of Creation. Every man whether they know it or not, like it or not, accept it or not, find themselves in the heart of this struggle between good and evil.

I agree with you lulapilgrim here as well!


Shovel, you're hysterical! Had me laughing!!

ARQUONZO


Arquonzo, you must be referring to St.Matthew 24:1-31 when you say that Jesus' return and the 'end of the age' would be in the lifetime of his disciples listening to him? If not, which Scriptural passage is it?

In St.Matt. 24, Jesus spoke to His disciples of 2 separate events both having to do with God's Judgment. Verses 1- apply to the Jews living then living (in 33AD). In answer to His disciples' question, Jesus starts out by prophecying the Great Tribulation of the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Here God's Judgment falls down upon the unfaithful Jews. They were judged, destroyed and dispersed and the OLd Covental Laws were abolished. Many of the same signs and bad things, i.e. false prophets, sun darkening, tyrannical persecution, the abomination of desolation, etc. that we are told that will occur at Jesus' Second Coming for the Final Judgment of all mankind at the end of the world happened at the destruction of Jerusalem.

In Verse 6, Jesus is prophecying the destruction of Jerusalem, and not His Second Coming, "And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

Jesus' message is that wars are not a sign of the end, but only the normal course of judgmental events that God brings to the earth. As a matter of fact it will be a superficial peace as a likly sign of the coming of the end of the world. Antichrist will at first appear to bring peace to nations.

In verses 15-31, we see how St.Matthew indicates that similiar events could take place at any time after his writing and could be applicable to anyone who is reading his Gospel. For example, applying the Abomination of Desolation that St.Matthew quotes Daniel could apply to the persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes, and also would allow the Abomination to be applied to a future event, (but within their generation)for example, the then coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
So, what this all means is that the Abomination has multiple applications and thus applies to the distant future, like at the terrible times just before the end of the world of which no one knows when that will be except God, the Father in Heaven.


Regarding your post: "All prophecy was fulfilled, a LONG TIME AGO."

What we must remember about prophecies is that they can be fulfilled literally, and they can also be fulfilled spiritually, some have single fulfillments and some have multiple fulfillments.
I would say that all Old Testament prophecy has been fulfilled in the New Teatament, in CHrist and in His Kingdom. And many of those in the Book of Revelation (The Apocalypse) have been fulfilled too. Having said that at least some of the New Testament passages have not yet been fulfilled because the Second Advent of Christ is still to come. We simply don't know when and when Christ's disciples asked, Christ told them "to keep watch".

Reply By: little-whipPosted: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 i am the antichrist. (and i ain't jewish, either.)

nope if anything you are anti-mean,

Reply By: lulapilgrimPosted: Wednesday, May 02, 2007

thank you so much for your well thought out and well explained stance on this issue. you are a terrific writer, how come I do not know of you? MY BAD!

Hello, MM.

I decided to join in the discussion after reading your Monday morning plea. Thank you for the compliment.

I'm relatively new at JU land and like to read and participate primarily in the religion section. I have limited time to be in front of the computer and although I enjoy reading other sections, I usually don't chime in with my two cents worth.



More on 666.

We get the number 666 from St.John who writes the Book of Revelation (or the Book of the Apocalypse). What is important to understand when reading Revelation is that the early Christians including St.John himself were being severly persecuted by the Romans at the time the Gospels and this book was written. Much of what they wrote was in "code" so that if the letter or Epistle was intercepted the Romans wouldn't charge them with treason or blasphemy.

In chapter 13, St. John writes about the land-beast who makes life difficult for those who will not submit to the sea-beast. He clarifies the identity of the sea-beast with the mark. He tells his readers to "reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six" 13:18. The Christians of the 1st century knew what St.John meant, but this number has caused wide speculation ever since.

Everyone agrees that it is a man. And that man has been to identify everyone from the Pope, Luther, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, FDR and Ronald Reagan. (I just read, btw, that Reagan's [an Episcopalian, I believe,] diaries reveal that he thought Armaggaden was emminent in his day.)

turns out the 666 is one of 16 clues to the identity of the beast.
to reveal the identity of the beast to the Hebrew Christian readers, while hiding it from outsiders, St.John the the rabbinic numbering system for names, called Gemetria. When Nero's official name in Hebrew is added together, they total 666.

So, St.John was successful in fingering the the present Roman emperor, Nero, as the sea-beast without endangering the lives of the Hebrew Christians in the early Church.

Now, the big question to me is: will the number 666 somehow be used again as multiple prophecy in times to come? Would it be literal or spiritual?

A similarly flawed discourse would be to ponder if Jewish people are traditionally paranoid. You can throw a rock and hit paranoid conspiracy sites on the Internet. Hell, Muslims would have a good chance at hitting a few hateful blogs aimed at them on JU.

A more wise reflection might be that when someone takes the saddest example from a particular group, could they be trying to validate their own bias? I wonder what the reaction might be if I linked Phelps' site and pondered why Christians hate Gay people so much...

I think you should write such an article and find out {heh heh mastermind MM trying to lure baker back} Always to good to see yer name baker btw.

Lula, you are obviously much more informed and educated about the Bible and its workings, I just cannot keep up with you.
But again I thank you for your contributions.

As a Christian I LOVE the Jews because I know that my Savior came from the Jewish people. I also know that the Jews are God's chosen people and he's not done with them yet even tho many want to believe so.

I also believe there have been and still are many anti-christs in the world such as Nero, Hitler, etc. but there will be one final Anti-Christ that will be the worse one yet to come. He has yet to come...although some believe he's alive and well today on planet earth. I also believe he will be of Jewish birth. We need to remember the Jews are still awaiting their Messiah. They will not follow one as Messiah unless he's of Jewish descent. This will be the one that will come in the name of God as their Messiah. He will not be from God but against God.

Jesus gave us a hint when he said this in Matt 24:15:

"When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand)."

Jesus was referring back to Daniel's description of the Anti-Christ. We read this in Daniel 9:27:

"And he (AC) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This is way too deep to go into here but basically means that this AC in the end times will make a pact with many of the Jews at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (3 1/2 years) he will break the pact or his covenant with the Jews and descrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it.

This is very similar to Antiochus Epiphanes (another anti-Christ)who desecrated the temple with a Pig in 168 BC and where we get the story behind Hanukkah. Many Jews died before it was all over. The story of the Maccabees is a good one to read here.

The pact or covenant is going to be some sort of peace treaty between the Jews and the Arabs. All will seem peaceful at first, but it's a false peace only to be interrupted halfway thru the trib with the AC showing his full colors and demanding worship of himself in the spirit of Lucifer. Many were intently watching Clinton and his peace treaty he brokered with the two leaders then, but that didn't last. From what I understand in my reading, it's not a new peace treaty but one that is just confirmed. So we've already got it....it just needs to be taken into effect.

Paul said this about the AC.

"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 2 Thess 2:4

This falling away is an agressive revolt against God (isn't that what we're seeing today?). This will prepare the way for the appearance of the man of sin aka AC.

If you want to read more about him, Revelation 13:1-10 is a good place to go, and since I'm starting a series on Revelation I'll be there sometime to look at this passage more thoroughly.

Interesting comment, but true, if you were a Roman. And Rome was the world.

Ah yes....I remember that now KFC...its been a looooong time since I studied Revelation.

what wonderful writings, even if you plugged your own blogsite. heh heh

I affirm that the final Anti-Christ will be one man and he will cause more devastation than man has ever seen, it will make all the wars that has ever happen combined look like a fun day at the park.

pstttttttt!!!!!!11 I was ummm being sarcastic.

Yes, I know, but I wasn't. Worlds beginning and end are always relative, Moderateman.

Frankly, I don't believe there is an anti-Christ as I don't believe Jesus was the Messiah the Hebrews talked about. Jews today see the Messiah as more an "age" than anything else...a sort of Messianic ideal, I suppose. If such is the case, then I suppose that anything, person or movement, which goes against such an ideal, would be considered the anti-Christ. Since the Messianic age is supposed to be an age of peace and harmony, where God is present in all of our lives, then I suppose anyone who advocates against peace and harmony, or God's presence, would be an anti-Christ.

Be well.

As A jew I agree here, But I do acknowledge that Jesus excisted, I think in more of the mold like Moses Ie:Prophet. Do I believe there will be a man so evil and cunning as to fool the world? Yes I do, Hitler did it, why not again.

Sorry....is that a no no? I haven't really gotten to the part about the AC yet but will eventually since he does have a major part....heh.

One other thing that's important here to note regarding the whole scene. The Jewish temple in Jerusalem has to be rebuilt first before all this stuff happens. I believe that is one if not the very next step. From what I've heard, the Sanhedrin has already been put in place, a model of the temple has been constructed. The problem is, the Mosque is sitting on the Temple Mount. Somehow that has to either come down, or the new Temple will have to be built right next to it.

I have heard some scuttlebut that it's very possible that the real temple site is next to the Muslim Mosque not exactly where the Big Gold Dome now sits. But not sure exactly the details on that. Do you know anything about this?

What? You want the AntiChrist should be Goyim? (said in best Jewish mother voice).

Rome is still there. And has been continually. It was sacked, sure, but the "fall" of the Roman empire is something we see because we look at history at the Macro level. From a perspective within it, you'd have never seen the "end of the world".

When you study this you see that Rome indeed is still there. We saw that Babylon was taken over by the Medes and Persians, who were in turn taken over by the Greeks with Alexander leading the way. After he died and his four Roman Generals split up and went their four ways Rome now became the big world power. They were never taken over but basically fell from within, burning and leaving smoldering ashes only to be now ignited once again with the new European Union coming up from these same ashes. This is where the AC will find his new home. All of this is foretold in Daniel.

Good Morning Bakerstreet! Its so good to see you again. This is my point exactly. There are always at least two realities, aren't here? The subjective version which includes our "full of ourselves" nature, i.e., "the Roman Empire" and all the toot that went with it, and the Rome that is throughout its history, on an objective level, a city that once was a city-state. It is our ideas about something that come and go.



Good Morning KFC! Rome is not Rome in the same way that Romans thought of Rome at the time we are talking about. At that time, Rome was a city-state, powerful, dominating the world as an empire. This is hardly the Rome of today. So is Rome still there? I don't think so. Its the same as when philosophers announced God was dead. They were not talking about God as a entity, but rather our ideas about him.

Moreover, there are real problem with prophetic approaches to understanding history. They tend to be like horoscopes. We naturally "see" the event in the light of what we are told it might be. The author of Daniel had no idea at all that there would be a EU.

Be well.

The Jewish temple in Jerusalem has to be rebuilt first before all this stuff happens.

Reply By: KFC Kickin For ChristPosted: Thursday, May 03, 2007

 

not according to what I read, the Anti-Christ will cause the temple to be rebuilt.

Reply By: Gideon MacLeishPosted: Thursday, May 03, 2007 What? You want the Antichrist should be Goyim? (said in best Jewish mother voice).

There in lies the trick, the Jews will not accept a Messiah from any stock but their own.

Reply By: KFC Kickin For ChristPosted: Thursday, May 03, 2007 what wonderful writings, even if you plugged your own blogsite. heh heh Sorry....is that a no no? I haven't really gotten to the part about the AC yet but will eventually since he does have a major part....heh.

naw, plug your site all you want KFC,. I was just funnin yer.

SODAIHO POSTS:

I've always thought the author of Daniel was Daniel himself. He was so renowned for his wisdom and knowledge that it became a proverb among the Babylonians , “as wise as Daniel”, Ezekiel 28:3. Ezekiel 14 mentions his holiness. Evidently he’s not commonly numbered by the Hebrews among the Prophets, but if we consider his many clear predictions of things to come, we shall find that no one better deserves the name and title of a prophet, which also has been given him by the Son of God Himself, StMatt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

As far as Daniel having an idea at all of the EU, I quite agree with you, Sodaiho.

Daniel, through his visions, predicted the following:
--that the Roman Empire would be in power when the Messiah came.
--that the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its Temple as a precondition of the Christ's First Advent.
--the Great Tribulation of Christ's fledgling Church.
--The Passion of our Lord along with its benefits.
--The establishment of the new strong covenant.
--The destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, and of biblical Judaism. God broke His relationship forever during Daniel’s 70th week.
--He even predicted his own final judgment. These events all happened; they are done deals; they are fulfilled.

What Daniel did not predict and is still in the future is the Second Advent of Christ when He will come again to judge all mankind, the living and the dead.

Even from a historical understanding, Daniel’s overall message has been fulfilled. Namely, that God’s spiritual kingdom was established when the Messiah was born during the ancient Roman Empire. Daniel's 70 weeks ended in 67 to 70 AD, by which time the blessings bestowed on Christ’s Church were evident in the world. Christ’s birth, death, Resurrection, and founding of the Church and the judgment of those who rejected Him and His new kingdom are the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecies.

All these events of Daniel's prophecy while already fulfilled point to tribulation, present and future, and to a still future death and resurrection of the world itself, and then the founding of a new heaven and a new earth at the final eschaton.

Whether or not the EU is figured to play into the future tribulation in which Antichrist plays a part is conjecture.