Hmmm Chak, then please explain to me why I never gave working in ambulances, forest firefighting, doing search and rescue, running disaster recovery missions, or any other job I've done with coworkers who I knew were gay?

The fact is, in all those other jobs a person's private life was just that... private. In the military there is no distinction between a person's "private" life and "professional" life. So, while you are right, there always have been gay people in the military, they have had to keep it to themselves, or risk prosecution. Now that we have "don't ask/don't tell" some choose to keep it to themselves, others choose to flaunt it, and they don't give a flying fig about what flaunting it does to unit cohesion.

Personally, what I really don't understand is why so many gay people insist that we accept their lifestyle. Just as I accept people of other people who are in groups barred from military service, why can't it be enough that accept someone as a human being and leave it at that. For that matter, if it was about "equality", why don't we hear gay activists championing the cause of overweight, diabetic, or people who can't pass the physical training test. Or should I be like the Gay activists and figure that they must hate overweight, diabetic or people who are out of shape, simply because I agree that they should be barred from military service?

I guess the real lesson learned from the gay activists is, anyone who disgrees with a person's political agenda hates them.

When we have unisex bathrooms universally, then it will make more sense. If people shouldn't have such separation between themselves and people attracted to them sexually, why don't women want to share bathrooms, showers at the gym, etc., with men? It's a hypocritical double standard for someone like Hillary Clinton to complain about gays in the military, and then expect to have a man-free public facilities.

Tell ya what, when all the Congressional bathrooms are unisex, we should talk about making the military open to homosexuals.

Are there still stalls in these unisex bathrooms? 'Cause if so, I'm in. If not, forget it. eeewwww.

I hadn't thought about the inability to separate personal space/life with work space/life. My job doesn't separate very well, which means there are certain things I am not allowed to do. I have a kind of "morality" clause that affects my personal behavior. This is probably about 1/4000 that people in the military face.

So, to make things "fair", shouldn't everyone be forced to keep everything related to their sex lives secret... no matter what orientation? Or is that already expected? Or, something similar to that. Like Tova said, don't discuss sex at work. Or is this too pie in the sky?



I try not to, but I'm so good at it.

Yes, there are stalls, but still you don't see them because in general people don't want them. You also hear people toss fits about transgendered people using their chosen sex's bathrooms. Isn't it utterly hypocritical for us to expect a separation and then pretend that it is somehow bigoted for the military to expect it?

I'm trying to imagine the difficulties you'd have if you imposed unisex bathrooms right now. Would women and men be bigoted to feel awkward or threatened? I don't see why a military person wouldn't feel the same showering with people who would find them the object of sexual interest, too.

Isn't it hypocritical of us to expect anything else?

I have a gay family member in the military. I wish I could ask this relative about the experience he/she has had thus far...and how it's been trying to keep his/her sexuality a secret.

But I dare not ask...it's none of my business really.

There are stalls in mens and womens bathrooms, so why not in unisex ones?

But I am totally against unisex bathrooms. Why? Cause men go in,do it, and get out. Women socialize, and I dont want to socialize when I am doing it.

I was just making sure before I committed myself to something. It's like making a wish to a genie... you'd better spell out all parts of the wish, or you're not going to like what you get.

You have a good point. Where would we gossip about men if we can't gossip in the bathroom? That would be a sad day indeed. On the other hand, Since the bathrooms would be open to all, it would even out the lines a bit. When I think of all the things I've missed waiting in line at the bathroom...

Sugar High, just a thought...  If you found out that one of your roommates was actually a guy, would that bother you?

Sorry Ted, but I lived with a guy this summer and two other girls. My female roommate was gay. We slept in the same room and everything. I didn't mind my male roommie coming in and using the bathroom sink while I was in the shower. We left the bathroom door open because there were four people, one bathroom, and we all had places to go. We didn't use the toilet while another person was showering, but that was more because the water would turn to ice...

I think the reason I couldn't understand the problem is that 1. There were only four of us. 2. We had relatively low stress. 3. We didn't actually shower together. 4. I never had to be completely nude around anyone.

Like I said, I've roomed with lesbians before. One of them told me she thought I was hot, and it was too bad I wasn't gay. I never felt that she was eyeing me or coming on to me. I assumed that people in the military were too busy to be checking out their peers in the shower or latrine. If you say it is otherwise, then I have no reason to doubt, or to realize that there are legitimate problems with openly homosexual soldiers.

My comfort levels with the opposite sex and with the gay community are easy for me to maintain. I haven't had any problems, and therefore my "open mindedness" has not been challenged. I can easily realize that not everyone has had my positive experiences and will not have my comfort levels.

And, I honestly had (and probably still don't have)a good idea of what military life is like. That's why I asked.

I suppose I should have titled this "I honestly don't understand" as opposed to "I honestly don't see the problem". A small matter of semantics, but I fear it has led to a misinterpretation of my goal.

This is the common denominator of the people who support having openly gay people in the military. It really is a lifestyle and living conditions unlike anything you will encounter in the civilian world. Having served in the Navy I can tell you that the living quarters and such on a ship leave absolutely no room for anything even remotely resembling privacy.

Unless you have personally experienced military life you are simply incapable of truly understanding it or the complications this can cause.

Fair enough Sugar High. As you point out, in your situation all four of you agreed on the limits according to your comfort levels. Military leaders are constantly forced to deal with the fact that people from all different backgrounds are forced together, in close quarters and expected to bring them together as a cohesive unit.

We like to imagine that we're all one military so we should be wiling to put aside our differences for the good of the unit, our branch and the USA, but we can't even expect that level of professionalism from our national leaders now can we. ;~D

I've been told that if the best way to understand those who are different from ourselves is to live with them. Well, I spent most my adult life in a forced "melting pot" and I'm here to tell you, "understanding" only happens if people want it.

I've also learned that in our PC society "acceptance" only seems to go one way. It's perfectly ok for a gay person to trash straights (or is homophobe a term of understanding and acceptance? Especially when used wrong), but a straight person can lose their job simply because they disagreed with gay people. We live in a world now where you can get canned for calling a woman "she" if that woman who wants to live as a man.

To tell you the truth, with all the problems forced acceptance is causing the civilian world, it's easy to see why there are problems with it in the military.

People talk about how they don't want to be bogged down with labels. It's my experience that people offended by labels are just as quick to use them as anyone else.

Lucky Guy!

Lucky Guy!

I don't know how much he loved living in the estrogen ocean... but we got a few laughs out of it.

I'm glad those of you with military experience have responded to this. Especially since my only knowledge of military life comes from M*A*S*H... and yes, I realize that isn't accurate.
I also understand about some people being able to bash some groups, while other groups are not allowed to bash at all. I wrote something about this a loooooong time ago, about how men on TV are always made fun of, but it isn't ok for them to make fun of the women. Or how this one black girl from my sorority is the biggest racist I know... but people can't seem to say anything about it because she is black.

That is the true, ugly nature of Political Correctness. It's nothing more than a different brand of bigotry.

It's nothing more than a different brand of bigotry.

AMen!  Very well put.

Funny you should mention M*A*S*H in this context. A friend of mine in high school was probably the first person I knew who was gay. Her name was Wilma, but everyone called her "Willie". One of our "code words" for gay became, "getting the willies".

On an episode of M*A*S*H a patient came in who it turned out was gay. In one scene Radar was talking about how Frank Burns didn't want the troop as a patient...

Radar: "Maj Burns said the patients gives him the Willies."

Hmmmmm ;~D

Is it scary that I know exactly what episode you're talking about?

I knew there was a reason we get along. ;~D

No, since I have seen every one about 3 times now.

Wait! You are not an old fart like me!

Only 3 times? You are soooo far behind me. I *love* M*A*S*H! I watch it every single change I get. Been doing so for about... ten years now? I doubt there's a single episode I haven't seen at least twice.

And, you're right... I'm only 22 (almost 23), not quite an old fart... no matter what my residents say.

Personally, what I really don't understand is why so many gay people insist that we accept their lifestyle.

why can't it be enough that accept someone as a human being and leave it at that. Because Ted they want to be able to walk down the street holding hands without people freaking out about it. Because they want to be able to be themselves without people looking at them and calling them names or treating them like lepers. Heterosexuals, some of us, don't accept this, don't think it's normal and refuse to even consider it! Some over react violently and can you blame someone who is gay to keep it to themselves? I have friends who are gay, they are out, but there are still so many who are not because they live and work in environments that don't accept them. I guess in a way I would compare what they are going through to someone living in a very racist society. For that matter, if it was about "equality", why don't we hear gay activists championing the cause of overweight, diabetic, or people who can't pass the physical training test. Or should I be like the Gay activists and figure that they must hate overweight, diabetic or people who are out of shape, simply because I agree that they should be barred from military service?I guess the real lesson learned from the gay activists is, anyone who disgrees with a person's political agenda hates them. A good question but I would say that there are some fat gay people out there too!lol! But I would also add to that because they are more focussed on the issues that they themselves face being gay. Although, a gay fat person who is diabetic has it threefold! This is the common denominator of the people who support having openly gay people in the military. It really is a lifestyle and living conditions unlike anything you will encounter in the civilian world. Having served in the Navy I can tell you that the living quarters and such on a ship leave absolutely no room for anything even remotely resembling privacy.

This is why I firmly believe the 'don't ask, don't tell' or is that 'we won't ask you don't tell'? policy should remain as is and people just mind their business. AND along with this remaining in place, if someone happened to be found out as being gay, then he/she be left alone and not be ostracized, kicked out, harrassed and all the other things that comes along with an 'outing'. Although I"m not in the military, never have been, and unless it's mandatory, never will be, I can only go by hearsay from what I just said there; however, I have friend who are gay, so I know a little of what they do go through. [no not in the military, but civilian life.]

This says it all as far as I am concerned. I am very much a mind my own business kind of person. The problem with many of the more activist type gays is that they seem to go out of their way to try to make their business my business. That annoys the hell out of me. I don't care what they or anyone else does in their bedroom and just don't want to know. I wish they'd keep their business to themselves and leave me (and everyone else) the hell alone.

I know a couple of gay guys who live a couple of streets over from me. They're pretty cool in my book. They aren't "in the closet" but they're not "in your face" either. They don't introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm gay." If you met them on the street you'd just see a couple of guys. People. Not gay people. Just people. That's why I like them.

Why do some of these people seem to think that the whole world needs to know who they prefer to bugger? I really don't care and wish they'd just shut the hell up and try to act like people for a change. Maybe then society in general just might start treating them like people instead of freaks.

ForeverSerenity:


Ah, so the gay couple want their right to "be themselves" in public without anyone offending them... even if what they are doing happens to offend those around them. See, that is my point. Sure, the couple have every right to hold hands or kiss just like a straight couple. They don't have the right to demand that everyone around them treat them with respect. If the gay couple do not care who they offend then they also shouldn't whine about someone offending them.



Yes, sadly there are those who react with violence. These people should be prosecuted just like any other criminal.

"MasonM - Unless you have personally experienced military life you are simply incapable of truly understanding it or the complications this can cause."

Ok, but this works for those on both sides of the issue. If you will ignore one side, you have to ignore both. It may be worse then a person who supports gays in the military may think and even with changes it wouldn't work, or not as bad as a person who disapproves may think and with changes it could work.

"MasonM - The problem with many of the more activist type gays is that they seem to go out of their way to try to make their business my business. That annoys the hell out of me. I don't care what they or anyone else does in their bedroom and just don't want to know. I wish they'd keep their business to themselves and leave me (and everyone else) the hell alone."

Agreed, yet I have to wonder, you give the "cool" gays example, but how many gay activists have you met in real life?

"ParaTed - For that matter, if it was about "equality", why don't we hear gay activists championing the cause of overweight, diabetic, or people who can't pass the physical training test."

Because those people are not fit physically. A gay person simply has a different sexual preference, it is not a physically limiting thing about how they will be able to perform.

"ParaTed - I've also learned that in our PC society "acceptance" only seems to go one way."

Yea, it does seem to go more one way then the other... it is probably because one is fighting for equality, one already has it... not exactly fair though.