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Is art worthless on the Internet?

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Is art worthless on the Internet?

People will pay for some crazy things but cry foul over paying for artwork

from WinCustomize Forums

Today Stardock Design released its first "Master" Dream to the Dream (animated wallpaper) gallery. It's the one Microsoft showed off at some of its events.  As some know, Microsoft worked with Stardock to make some of the animated wallpapers for use with Windows DreamScene. Windows DreamScene (the software) is a feature for Windows Vista Ultimate users.  Most of the content we created for Microsoft hasn't been released yet (it will be available from Microsoft).  In the process of creating the animated wallpapers for Microsoft, we made a bunch of extra ones for WinCustomize.com which had nothing to do with our work with Microsoft.

So far, Stardock Design has released 6 free .Dreams and 1 premium .Dream.  On top of that, Stardock has released DeskScapes as freeware and DreamMaker as freeware.  And of course, we host the Dreams here on WiniCustomize which, on their own, used over 2 TERRABYTES of bandwidth.  So from our vantage point, Stardock's been "the good guy". Providing lots of free stuff, lots of free software and providing a free site to get it on. 

But Stardock's also a business. The costs of producing all this has to be made up somewhere or else we wouldn't be able to keep doing it.  But some people seem to be very vocal in their outrage that artists won't work for free. They'll happily pay Microsoft $400 for Windows Vista Ultimate but cry bloody murder about paying third party artists $4.95 for content.  My Xbox 360 cost quite a bit too but amazingly, the games aren't free. Those "greedy" game companies! 

Here's some of the comments on Blissful Sunset:

"It's absolutely ridiculous that they're charging for this-- it's just wrong. But for people who own Vista Ultimate, just wait, I guarantee you that this will come w/ the final Dreamscene when it's released. "

According to this user, it's morally wrong for artists to be paid for their work.  He's quite incorrect about Blissful Sunset coming with the final.

Another user wrote this:

"The implication (with MS showing it at official events) is that this development is work that was part of your contract with MS and therefore has already been subsidized and is in fact being paid for by all of us by our shelling out extra bucks for Ultimate edition."

This falls under the "no good deed goes unpunished" category.  Microsoft was looking for high quality content to show off during their demos but didn't want to give away some of the stuff that will be coming in the final release so they asked us if they could show the extra content we made. We agreed to let them. After all, it's pretty cool to see your work up on stage. But this person (and others) have tried to argue that we should simply give away all the animated wallpaper for free that we've made because we made the ones that come with it.  How does that make sense?

Over at Valve's Steam website, a user posted "Stardock sux" and writes:

"This is just unbelievable. Stardock is now charging us for what is supposed to be a FREE Vista Ultimate Extra"

This line of thinking is equivalent to saying that someone who bought say Half-Life 2 via Steam is somehow entitled to HL2: Episode 0 and HL2: Episode 1 and so forth. After all, they paid for Half-Life, why should they have to pay for additional content?  In fact, that's been one of the trends in the "outrage" group. Sure, there's 18 dreams that are free. But they shouldn't have to pay for anything because they bought Windows Vista Ultimate. I just totally can't grasp that mindset.  In what universe does someone buying a version of Windows entitle them to free software and content created by third parties?  Heck, my cell phone tries to get me to pay money for additional ring tones!

So here's what's going to happen -- one of these 2 things are going to occur:

Possibility #1: Users decide animated wallpaper is worthless.  In that case, Stardock Design won't be creating any more for consumers. Remember, Stardock Design currently has a 6 to 1 ratio in free to premium content.  At that point, consumers would just have to hope that individual artists  --who understand that there's no chance they'll ever be able to even make some extra side income from their efforts-- will take the time to create spectacular animated wallpapers that loop perfectly and are encoded in high quality at high-definition. Maybe that would happen but I wouldn't count on it.

In addition, since the bandwidth bill would still exist, users would have to buy WinCustomize subscriptions to download after awhile.  So the "free beer" crowd would have to find their content elsewhere. But don't count on these being available on most sites. At 50+ megabytes a pop, it's a lot of bandwidth. Someone has to pay for it.

And of course, that would mean the software would have to start charging for extra features. Want to pay 3D dynamic content? The user would have to get the "Pro" version.  The point being, the costs of producing, supporting, and developing this stuff has to come from somewhere. Personally, I think a system which nearly everything is free but a handful of premium content isn't free is a pretty good arrangement for everyone.

Possibility #2: Enough users decide that there's value to animated wallpaper. If something comes along that is of exceptional quality happens to ask for a few bucks, then it's worth buying.  In that event, what would happen is that it would attract more and more talented people who would submit lots of free ones in the hope of eventually being able to occasionally release premium ones to help recoup their time and costs. It's worth mentioning one more time - Stardock Design's free to non-free ratio so far is 6 to 1. If other studios and independent artists of great skill start to do the same, that sounds like a win-win.

So far, the results have been good. In the first 4 hours of "Blissful Sunset" we sold over 200 copies of it. Whether that trend continues remains to be seen. There's always a big bump at the beginning. The typical WindowBlinds Master skin has an initial bump and then eventually trends to around 5 per day after awhile.  But even 5 per day, put over time, is worth it.  The author's share of that ends up being around $3,500 per year per skin (not counting the initial bump) -- enough to buy a new computer.  But skins are different because it's an established thing.  Animated wallpapers are brand-new. How things progress with animated wallpaper remains to be seen.

 

63,921 views 190 replies
Reply #101 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I have no idea what you mean by "Where you answer correctly is where you are based in reality." However, I did recently commission a logo design for my company and we are talking in the $500-1000 range

Ok...so you're nearly following me....

$500 for a logo....a single image design.

Pop open a Windowblind file [wba]...you can see what's inside by converting 'wba' to 'zip'...it's a system/proggy specific archive format.

You'll find more than one image. These images are not independent or isolated.  They need to interact as a GUI to skin a complex component, again, they are not singular and static.

Imagine then your one-off $500 .....adjusted UP to this level of input/complexity....and you will see that the 'correct answer based on reality' for a price-pont is going to be WELL ABOVE $500/1000 for a single WB design.

A person who displaces his normal productive income time [job] by creating quality content within the skinning community/field is thoroughly entitled to a comparative hourly value.  100 hours at $25 per....sounds quite viable.....$2500 would make a sensible STARTING value to such endeavour.

Factor in artistic value through uniqueness/originality [this is NOT paying for someone to empty kerbside rubbish bins...it's paying for creative/artistic content as well as physical labour].... and you should expect to pay quite a bit more than 'a logo'....

Reply #102 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Shadowlord you are the biggest idiot I have EVER seen here.

I have NEVER had to buy a skin of ANY kind to use Stardock software.

I create skins...a WB takes 40 ++ hours of my 'spare' time.(and thats a super conservative estimate...thats just where I lose count)It has taken me 4 years of practice to get this good.You would place almost zero value on my work.

Stardock is under no obligation to provide us with anything whatsover beyond a working product.Does Photoshop provide you with free art?No it allows you to create your own.I wasnt aware that WB promises you skins for free...just happens that they provide a website where there are thousands.You are welcome to create all the skins you want...but Stardock dosnt HAVE to.

Lets see you put in 40 + hours on something and see how you feel giving it away(multiple times)

The only BS I see here is you.  
Curtains - Customize Windows with additional styles
Reply #103 from WinCustomize Forums Top
A person who displaces his normal productive income time [job] by creating quality content within the skinning community/field is thoroughly entitled to a comparative hourly value. 100 hours at $25 per....sounds quite viable.....$2500 would make a sensible STARTING value to such endeavour.

Factor in artistic value through uniqueness/originality [this is NOT paying for someone to empty kerbside rubbish bins...it's paying for creative/artistic content as well as physical labour].... and you should expect to pay quite a bit more than 'a logo'....
End of quote


$2500 is ridiculous for a skin. Our logo so far has taken 10 or so of our man hours (i.e. when we had to talk to hem, review their design, send it back and forth, meet with them etc...) I can easily imagine they have put in twice that in their time (they had to come up with multiple sketches, colors, multiple views, submit revisions, etc. etc. Assuming it took somewhere around 20-30 hours (and still not done) for the artist I say $500 is a fair value. If we have to go through a number of more revision, sketches, productions, we may consider paying a bit more. Also included in the price is business card design, letter heads, rx forms, and SIMPLE animation of the logo for our website. There is no way in hell we are paying $500 for a mere image. So your argument for $2500 does not stand in our experience. I think $500-$750 would be a fair value for a skin to a whole suite of skins... After all its not like EVERY image in the skin took as long as our logo to make. In fact most images probably took seconds. The real time in skin building comes in 1. original design and 2. debugging of the code. We are thinking of commissioning a skin around our logo. If we do I'll be happy to let you know what our final cost was...

But more importantly Jaffo, you continue to ignore my argument and come up with all this diatribe regarding the price of art. The intrinsic value of art will not be determined by this forum. My argument (as summarized previously) is with SD's atittude not what a skin is worth. If you care to comment on that I will be happy to continue my dialog with you.
Reply #104 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Actually $25/hr is fairly conservative and generous. Personally I'd divide each specific component of the process such as Project Mgm't, Graphic Design, Programming, R&D,Marketing, etc. Just because someone is not working or is doing this in their spare time doesn't make it any less of a business than a full-time enterprise.

A business is still a business and costs are still costs. So, don't ask someone to bend over and grab their ankles because you don't want to pay fair market values.


Again I ask based on what do you make your assertions? I know alot of people who run businesses who do "Project Mgm't, Graphic Design, Programming, R&D,Marketing", manufacturing, pay over head, etc. etc. and yet do not make (nor charge) $25.00/hr for their time. So why is this the fair market value for this endeavour? Obvioulsy the fair market value for this type of work is not $25.00/hr or they would be a lot less whining on this site and a ton more people trying to make $25/hr by creating skins. The market does not bear that no matter how much you may want it to. In fact, based on the OPs orginal content I would argue that the fair market value for a gadget/IP/skin/etc. is ~$4000 per YEAR (I am including the intitial bump of sales in this calculation)! This gives us ~$1.92/hr (assuming you work 40hr weeks 52 weeks per year). And yes this is fair market value because that is what the market bears. Consider it this way: if you were doing this full time, were good, and about the same speed as the $25/hr guy you could make two skins, gadget, what ever a month. That averages you approximaetly $8000 a month or $96K/year. Not a bad salary considering that you have no real costs (SD is paying for hosting, bandwidth, etc. off of their share of the earnings). Of course a one off project could not be charged at $1.92/hr but it certainly will not suddenly go up to 25/hr either. I am willing to pay fair market value, just not "I dreamt work done in my spare time is worth this many dollars/hr" value.

Furhtermore, whether someone is willing to bend over and grab their ankles is irrelevant to the fair market value of their job (exceptions: people who work in a circus and strippers/hookers ). However, if you want to bend over and pay whatever some one dreamt up be my guest... But I think I'll skip that bit...
Reply #105 from WinCustomize Forums Top
this is NOT paying for someone to empty kerbside rubbish bins...it's paying for creative/artistic content as well as physical labour]


This also really bothered me. I don't know where you grew up but where I grew up I was in the middle of the income pool (i.e I had friends who where much wealthier then we were and friends who were also much poorer). Just becasue someone does manual labor does not make their work less valued. It is probably work you couldn't do (I know I couldn't haul furniture 8 hours a day every day at the crack of dawn up and down stairs). Those people who empty your curb side rubbish understand the value of work, a dollar, and what an honest hour's pay is worth much better then any "artist" I have ever met. And in some ways their work is much more valuable then the work of our logo designer.
Reply #106 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Not written by me, just plagarized by me .....

Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking “artists” for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.

But what they’re NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.

To those who are “seeking artists”, let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?

More than likely, you don’t know any. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting on craigslist to find them.

And this is not really a surprise.

In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.

So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?

Would you offer a neurosurgeon the “opportunity” to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him “a few bucks” for “materials”. What a deal!)

Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?

If you answered “yes” to ANY of the above, you’re obviously insane. If you answered “no”, then kudos to you for living in the real world.

But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?

Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.

A few things you need to know;

1. It is not a “great opportunity” for an artist to have his work seen on your car/’zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a “great opportunity” for YOU to have their work there.

2. It is not clever to seek a “student” or “beginner” in an attempt to get work for free. It’s ignorant and insulting. They may be “students”, but that does not mean they don’t deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a “student” once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.

3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it’s one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their “portfolio”. They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It’s not compensation. It’s their right, and it’s a given.

4. Stop thinking that you’re giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.

5. Students DO need “experience”. But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the “experience” they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother’s house when they were seventeen?

If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.

6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to “submit work for consideration”. They may even be posing as some sort of “contest”. These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the “contest”, or be “chosen” for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or “spec”, work. It’s risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com.

So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are “spec” gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.

And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free… please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you’re accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.

original post WWW Link
Reply #107 from WinCustomize Forums Top
if YOU CAN PAY $400 FOR WINDOWS THEN YOU CAN PAY $5 for the artist work and time that they put in stop whinging   

Reply #108 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Would you offer a neurosurgeon the “opportunity” to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him “a few bucks” for “materials”. What a deal!)


As a physician I have to say that this is absolutely true. On any given day I do at least one case for which I will not get paid for. These cases at our hospital are officially classified as "cash accounts" for people without any form of insurance. The reality, and the running joke is that they are the no cash accounts. We don't get paid for these, ever. And there is usually no way to collect, because if the pt. had assets he would have had some insurance in the first place. Heck even insurance doesn't mean anything since the companies do anything they can not to pay out and patients seem to forget immediately that they have deductibles, co-pays, etc. etc. Everyone wants "insurance only".

Trust me I wish I could turn all these people away at door and only take patients with cash in hand but ethically and legally I can not. And trust me it isn't because I need the "Free Work" or the experience, or to get their name on my pt. list (yes your highness I operated on Bob, the homeless guy under the overpass, why don't you see him as a reference.) As an "artist" you can do whatever you want but if you think as a guy who has done a couple of murals for the local high school you are suddenly about to land the big bucks forget it. We all started somewhere, usually the bottom. Trust me, artists are not special, you guys have to start at the bottom just like the rest of us and that means taking many free jobs and low paying jobs until you can land that big job.

Of course if you believe the above post then all artists should be driving ferraris and yachting around the world while the rest of us are starving but it seems to be the other way around... Like I said in another post your work is worth what the market will pay and not what YOU or some other artist think it is worth.

p.s. checked out the original link and looks like another MD there made the same comment as me...
Reply #109 from WinCustomize Forums Top

So your argument for $2500 does not stand in our experience.

That is simple evidence your 'experience' is meagre.

I am not at liberty [nor would I even bother] to reveal actual fee structures pertaining to commissioned skin/suite design.

Perhaps you may have more luck enquiring with the likes of Nintendo, Alienware, nVidia, etc.....ask them how much THEY valued the works done for them by members of this community.

As for what I am replying to....well....it will be the nature of the actual TOPIC of this thread....'is artwork worthless on the net?'

Put simply....so there is NO confusion.....in a fairly universally understood 2-letter word.....

NO.

.....I trust that makes it clear....

Reply #110 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Stop comparing physicians to graphic artists. The subject isn't about physicins so any and all analogies are useless. Analogies are for people that can't grasp the original concept and have to resort to something they know and can manipulate to meet their needs.

Reply #111 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Just becasue someone does manual labor does not make their work less valued.

It's always entertaining how people pick and choose snippets of a discussion/argument to home in on....[I'm doing it now, too]

In context, the differentiation between manual labour [bin collection] and creative endeavour [in this case skinning as an art] [yes, that is the topic] is....both require time...and perhaps even blood, sweat and tears.

If you discount the purely artistic as an effete waste of human time and resources then a goodly proportion of society may as well slit their wrists now...and avoid the rush.

You say you are a doctor.....ooh....qualifications, education and such.....society is [mostly] willing to pay 'more' for that expertise......quite a bit more than the 'garbologist' you assert is your equal.

So then, why is it the sanitation engineer...who spends his days up to his armpits in effluent [yours and mine] gets four fifths of eff-all as a wage in comparison to an established Medico of similar experience?

Society puts the numbers to it....as does supply and demand.

If tomorrow all the skinners out there said 'bugger this....Joe Public considers us all to be beneath pond scum on the social hierarchy and pulled all their collective works from public access....well, gosh-darn it, people would have to work out how to spell D.I.Y. .....and just maybe they'd say 'this shit isn't easy....it's worth what they asked'....

In case you're curious....I'm not a professional skinner, but I have been in professional practise since 1974...

Reply #112 from WinCustomize Forums Top
s for what I am replying to....well....it will be the nature of the actual TOPIC of this thread....'is artwork worthless on the net?'



Spoken like true SD fan. Squash any criticism of the company, don't acknowledge it, heck don't even entertain the idea that the company can be criticized...

As for waht nVidia, nintendo, and MS are willing to pay: I hardly think they are willing to hire a no name guy off of WC who is sellign a skin for $5.00... They want to see a solid portfolio...

Fianlly, if you want to address the title of this thread not the content (and not my points or my post which you criticized) then all art is worthless unless 1. you are commissioned to produce it or 2. some one is willing to pay for it. Otherwise, you did it for yourself and you should expect nothing for it. And guess what if people are not willing to pay $5.00 for your "art" then it is NOT worth $5.00 no matter how much you wish it so.
Reply #113 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Stop comparing physicians to graphic artists



I thought graphic artists wanted to be compared to proffessionals... Guess I was wrong.


Analogies are for people that can't grasp the original concept and have to resort to something they know and can manipulate to meet their needs.

Incidentally it was your linked/copied/pasted post that drew the analogy.. So exactly what are you saying about yourself?
Reply #114 from WinCustomize Forums Top
gain I ask based on what do you make your assertions? I know alot of people who run businesses who do "Project Mgm't, Graphic Design, Programming, R&D,Marketing", manufacturing, pay over head, etc. etc. and yet do not make (nor charge) $25.00/hr for their time.


Bullshit. I DO own a business and the cheapest billing rate I have is for clerical and it runs $25/hr. My rate is $150, my cheapest CAD technician's rate is $60 You obviously don't know shit about business or finance so give it up.
Reply #115 from WinCustomize Forums Top
It's always entertaining how people pick and choose snippets of a discussion/argument to home in on....[I'm doing it now, too]
End of quote


I did it because:

1. The comment bothered me
2. I did not think it strengthened your original post, in fact it weakend it

plus I did reply to the rest of things you said as well...

So then, why is it the sanitation engineer...who spends his days up to his armpits in effluent [yours and mine] gets four fifths of eff-all as a wage in comparison to an established Medico of similar experience?
End of quote


Because he does not have YOUR life in his hands. But nonetheless it does not devalue what he does. I don't treat your "garbatologist" any different from a fellow physician, or even a gasp skin designer. Your comment however, seemed to indicate that artists deserve better then others because of some elusive talent quality..

f tomorrow all the skinners out there said 'bugger this....Joe Public considers us all to be beneath pond scum on the social hierarchy and pulled all their collective works from public access....well, gosh-darn it, people would have to work out how to spell D.I.Y. .....and just maybe they'd say 'this shit isn't easy....it's worth what they asked'....


Or Joe Public might just as well say, hey you know what we really didn't need them. After a few days the graphic artists would need to eat (pesky habbit that eating thing) and they'll return willing to work for more reasonable/realistic pay.
Reply #116 from WinCustomize Forums Top
My rate is $150, my cheapest CAD technician's rate is $60 You obviously don't know shit about business or finance so give it up.


$150 for doing what? You are trying to compare apples to oranges. I also know people whose billing rate is $350/hr. We call them our malpractice lawyers and they are worth every penny. My assertion was on 25/hr for someone sitting at home skinning in his spare time. Of course the point flew completly over your head so the discussion is pretty much moot...
Reply #117 from WinCustomize Forums Top
sitting at home skinning


I assume he/she still has overhead for things like the chair, the computer, the electricity, the internet connection............etc.

spare time.


There's no such thing. You will only live so many hours. I can see you don't value yours very much.


$150 for doing what?


Civil Engineering, Land Planning & Design. Since I've also done a bit of skinning I can tell you they aren't all that different. There's the concept, the planning, the design and the implementation.
Reply #118 from WinCustomize Forums Top

As for waht nVidia, nintendo, and MS are willing to pay: I hardly think they are willing to hire a no name guy off of WC who is sellign a skin for $5.00... They want to see a solid portfolio...

Shadow Lord ....I take it then that within your 8 months or so here at Wincustomize.com you have yet to trip over any reference at all to commercial skinners and skinning within this community?

Or is it just the problem that one entity decides to make their product [Dream] available to all for $5 a shot then the product of their endeavours is $5 in total.

nVidea, et al commissioned works for their company/s...as branding....think 'logo' except extensively more complex.

There's one for Zippo, for example....branded as such....paid for by Zippo....not "yes, Johnny Nobody....you can use our name for your silly little skin thing"...but "please, sir, we wish to hire your services to personalize our company's computer hardware 'interface' ...we call it product identity".

Let's pretend not to have an over-developed inverted-snobbery gland and accept that not only is the Garbo a valid social participant....or the Doctor [though he's only rendered non-impotent thanks to backroom lawyers [butt watchers]]...and so, shock/horror is the artist...that famous dead-beat druggie in the squat who apparently can only be valued AFTER death.

Sure, starve the artist....he's a socialist animal anyway....force him to create/paint for peanuts....

...afterall he MUST be valuless as even the lofty professional can't cough up $5 for a piece of creativity from his fellow man.  [of course he can't, he's saving for that $350/hour lawyer....something he WILL eventually need, unlike a bit of bling for his laptop]....

Reply #119 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Assuming it took somewhere around 20-30 hours (and still not done) for the artist I say $500 is a fair value. If we have to go through a number of more revision, sketches, productions, we may consider paying a bit more. Also included in the price is business card design, letter heads, rx forms, and SIMPLE animation of the logo for our website. There is no way in hell we are paying $500 for a mere image. So your argument for $2500 does not stand in our experience. I think $500-$750 would be a fair value for a skin to a whole suite of skins...


Whoever is doing that logo and all the extra work is a fool and in desperate need of work. Brand identity isn't just something you get for a few bucks. I've been in graphic design for 6 years working at a printing house and now an advertising agency, so I've seen the amount of time that goes into creating stuff like that. If you think $500 is a fair value, I think you're not in touch with reality. That's $20 an hour for 25 hours of work. I'll be surprised if you can get graphic designers to work for you for less than $60 an hour. Double that up and we're getting there.
Reply #120 from WinCustomize Forums Top
People check profile think I've been around for only 8 months.. Well you know what happens when you ASSUME.

The problem is not that an entity decided to charge $5 for their work (look through my posts I've never said artist should not be compensated. I have said some have an over blown sense of selfworth). If the market bears it fine.

[size="7"]The problem is that SD thinks they are doing the CONSUMER a favor by putting up this site. [/s]ze] Then they bitch moan about TB of bandwidth, and oh how people expect to get free "premium skins." They put themselves on a higher ground by trying to say hey "you whiners are just trying to cheat out the poor artistic folk". Where in reality, it is stardock that is cheating out both the artistic folk and the consumer. That is the problem. Period. What you and I are willing to pay for art and artist time is not important since 1. I will never be hiring you and 2. You would never work for me even if I offered.

The problem is, has been, and will be Stardock and not because they try to make money but because they whine about their users expecting value for the products they buy.
Reply #121 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Whoever is doing that logo and all the extra work is a fool and in desperate need of work. Brand identity isn't just something you get for a few bucks. I've been in graphic design for 6 years working at a printing house and now an advertising agency, so I've seen the amount of time that goes into creating stuff like that. If you think $500 is a fair value, I think you're not in touch with reality. That's $20 an hour for 25 hours of work. I'll be surprised if you can get graphic designers to work for you for less than $60 an hour. Double that up and we're getting there.


I know a couple of Art Center graduates (the one in Pasadena) working for big design/advertising corps in NY. If you have STEADY/Full Time jobs willing to pay $120/hr please let me know I will get them to you ASAP as they are making a 1/4 - 1/3 of that right now plus payin NY living costs.

And I agree brand identity is important and depends on your brand: if your Brnad is AT&T, Kraft, IBM, etc. you will surely pay more than $500, work with a team of designers with years of experience and demand impressive work. But when you are designing brand identity for a local firm I don't think we need a team of designers who total more than our whole office.
Reply #122 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Where in reality, it is stardock that is cheating out both the artistic folk and the consumer. That is the problem. Period.

How?

Reply #123 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Here are my thoughts.

I thought skinners and the community loved making art because its what they enjoy. It's coming off as if this is their livelihood. They are only doing this to make money or they want to be compensated for their time. I spend many hours working with kids but I don't expect the parents to pay me. But if it were my livelihood then I would expect it. Actually I give away a lot of my time doing things I'm good at and don't get paid for it. I'm a looser I should find out how much I'm losing and start charging . Whatever happened to shareware? There are a ton of people spending hours of time writing code and giving it away or asking for a donation.

Like I said earlier I think $5 is too much for one wallpaper that is hidden about 90% of the time. Why is there so much content here? People get tired of what they have. I know that there are 6 others to choose from that are free, but what about a year from now? I much would prefer a subscription service like Stardock does with OD, all the free updates for a year. Premium content doesn't have a preview, trial, or anything. Just purchase it and hope it’s what you thought it would be.

To summarize I'm just a little turned off by the attitude we shall get paid. Yah, yah, I know we live in a capitalist society. What do you enjoy at the end of the day helping others or getting paid? I need to eat and feed my family but I enjoy helping others with no strings attached. I know I'm a sucker. I really don't mind paying for high quality stuff I just don't like the business model setup here that's all.
Reply #124 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I think $500-$750 would be a fair value for a skin to a whole suite of skins...

Hehe...Well, I can say you are wrong.

A suite of skins for $750?  Where can I get some???????

I work with contracting artists all the time (I'm the VP of Stardock Design).  I can assure you that a custom skin is worth more than $500. 

Artists should get paid fairly for their work.  It's just that simple.

The artists *do* make free content.  But, if they sit down and make something that they perfect so that they can sell it, why shouldn't they get paid?  Is time valueless?

Reply #125 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Artists: They take a profit as well as costs from each sale.
Consumer: By providing the good/better content as premium (it might not be much right now, but eventually all the good skinners will become masters so the only thing available for free will be the repetetive junk which fills most of the DBs) they devalue the consumers purchase. What is the point of buying WB/IP/or anything else if then to take advanatage of it you have to pay for the skins? If I buy WB I expect to be able to get premium content on a regular basis for free. After all, if there is no good skin to use on WB why buy it in the first palce?

But again I am not as pissed off about the above then the holier then thou atitude that is shown by the company. If the company just wanted to make money I would say o.k. but they act like as if they are some poor souls who are loosing money so that we can all be happy at their expense...