"Obey Me," Says God and Fundies.

It so doesn't deserve it.

from JoeUser Forums
Many years ago it became clear to me that God as described by the fundies was unworthy of worship.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't believe. It's just that, well, the god of the Christians is frankly an immoral, vicious bastard with the social graces of a praying mantis and a heart as black as coal.

I don't claim to know the infinite universe. I don't claim to be a good person. But I do try. So when I hear that the Creator is all for the murder of innocent children, or turns a respectable woman into salt for taking one last glance at their home before it's destroyed forever along with all her friends, I think - that god must be a prick. If I knew it socially I'd probably avoid speaking to it. Arseholes just aren't cool.

Of course the fundies would tell you that obedience is the key. But I've always believed that you should stand up for what is right. Why should I obey a ruthless, cruel dictator simply because he decided it would be fun to shape my ancestors out of clay/DNA/the sun god's right testicle/whatever your creation story of choice is?

Is that the kind of moral message the moral right wish to send? It's okay to obey the wishes of the evil if they have power over you. It's okay to sacrifice a small child if someone stronger than you asks. Don't make a fuss if someone takes all your stuff, kills your family and animals and infects you with diseases to win a bet. Don't speak up. Don't speak out. OBEY.

What kind of person would I be if I did that? What kind of person would obey the demands of a creature that is clearly fucked in the head?

Since I was a kid I've always been told to do what I believe to be right. And it's not right to do evil just because someone stronger than you tells you to. It's not right to do evil just because you'll suffer if you don't. It's not right to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Nazis and extremists and exclaim, when your conscience comes to judge, "It was an order!"

It's not right. And if God is really as malicious and cruel as it is described to be, then it is not worthy of worship. Power isn't everything, and every time we teach our children to obey, rather than question, evil, we condemn an entire generation to the horror of our own world.

An omnipotent god who creates a world like ours isn't to be praised. It's to be blamed, for they cast the vast majority into endless torment and suffering on a whim. Anyone who would do such a thing isn't worthy of our obedience. They're worthy only of our pity.
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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, I would argue with you, except I am not a fundamentalist.  But my God is supposed to be the same God as theirs.  However, my God gave man free will.  So that they could chose to obey him, or do evil.  And yes, sometimes even in his name.  The evils of the world are not the cause of God, they are the choice of men to do evil.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

yet we look at the story of Abraham/Issac as an object lesson in sort of obedience God requires from his 'true believers' and call it good.

The story of Abraham and Isaac, like so many other stories in the Bible, is one that is horribly mistaught in churches (the story of Lot's wife is another). The message of the story of Abraham was that God was trying to END the practice of child sacrifice, a practice that was common in that day and age. Abraham obeyed because he thought it was a reasonable request.

God could have had Abraham sacrifice Isaac to prove that he was willing, then resurrect Isaac. In fact, some theologians have speculated that is what Abraham expected. But He did not. He provided a sacrificial animal for Abraham instead.

The concept of sacrifice is one that is grossly misunderstood (and it is part of the reason for SOME misunderstanding between Christians, Jews and Muslims). I can't get into it in detail, but suffice it to say it's not being promoted properly.

As for Lot's wife, I believe the "looking back" was more than a wistful glance. I can't say for sure, but I have read several commentaries that state that it is more than that. Until such a time as I know the ancient texts well enough to read them for myself, I'll leave that one open.

The Christian God isn't a bad God, as you present it, cacto, he's just got a crappy PR team!

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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
An omnipotent god who creates a world like ours isn't to be praised. It's to be blamed, for they cast the vast majority into endless torment and suffering on a whim. Anyone who would do such a thing isn't worthy of our obedience. They're worthy only of our pity


Since I already answered you in part on my thread I'll be brief here. You are blaming God for the evil havoc that Satan has caused. God is the God of order. It's Satan who is the god of confusion and chaos. You are blaming the wrong god.

If God had created Adam and Eve with no free will and created only a robotic state of mind, then God would have been condemned for that. So basically he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. Could you do better? It's tough to be God.

Let's put the blame where the blame belongs. It's not with God it's with our own black hearts working with the lies being fed us by the god of the earth....and it's not the same God I worship.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
If God had created Adam and Eve with no free will and created only a robotic state of mind, then God would have been condemned for that.


Just a facetious thought . . .

but . . .

Condemned by who? If we were all robotic automotons, who would there be to condemn him? Without free will, there is no free thought. Without free thought, there can be no condemnation.

Just thinking.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Condemned by who?


Satan!

Didn't he do that with Job?

Oh God, no wonder Job loves you...you've built a hedge of protection around him.

I can see it now.....

Oh God, no wonder Adam and Eve bow to your every whim. You have made them like robots. You have put a hedge of robotic thought all around them. They don't love you freely, they love you as automated by you.

Besides, do you think God would have really wanted that kind of Love? It's not perfect....it's scripted.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Since I already answered you in part on my thread I'll be brief here. You are blaming God for the evil havoc that Satan has caused. God is the God of order. It's Satan who is the god of confusion and chaos. You are blaming the wrong god."


While I don't agree with Cacto, I have to take issue with that. You have said that 'everything' is part of God's, the real God's, plan, KFC. You even said the Holocaust was.

"Didn't he do that with Job? "


Yes, supposedly he, while hanging out with Satan, decided to let Satan kill off Jobs family to prove a point. Is that the kind of behavior we'd tolerate from humans? Why attribute it to a perfect God?


Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Satan!


Satan would complain no matter what God did. That's Satan's job, remember?
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
"An omnipotent god who creates a world like ours isn't to be praised. It's to be blamed, for they cast the vast majority into endless torment and suffering on a whim. Anyone who would do such a thing isn't worthy of our obedience. They're worthy only of our pity."


And an omnipotent God that imposed peace and justice would be a bully. You believe the Christian fundamentalist view of God to be bogus, but honestly when I read this I see you taking a lot of what they are saying as a given, and then judging God because of it. I see that a lot in Atheist dogma, too.

It makes it easy, because it offers a limited set of arguments to address. Expand that to the major religions, it gets more exhaustive. Expand it to all religions and you have to make a lifestyle out of opposing a being you don't believe in. In the end you are just arguing against people's OPINIONS of God, though, not God.

Take it one step further, and you find that everything in the argument falls apart. What if no one is right? What if it is all theory, no different than our limited understanding of everything else in the universe? What if all this religious nonsense has just paralleled our slow march toward scientific understanding?

In that case, we'd be the same as people who would stand today and brush off modern medicine because they once bled people to death. It is sad that most religion locked itself from advancing, but that is political, a means to power and authority, not the nature of personal faith or God. We've seen the same thing IN science, actually, when the ivory tower folks don't want their bogus theories questioned.

Instead of the conclusion I quote above, wouldn't it be just as easy to say that an omnipotent God that would create such a world must not be what they claim He is? Our sense of fairness, justice, even horror is based upon what we see with our limited senses, and then translated through our limited understanding.

A child that sees a lion eat a baby gazelle might make the same conclusion about God, and then happily go wolf down a hamburger without giving it much thought. We don't even understand the physical systems we live in, much less their moral implications in a universal sense. Our ignorance is huge enough to house God.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Christian God isn't a bad God, as you present it, cacto, he's just got a crappy PR team!


I like that. Is that yours? It's certainly true anyway.

God is the God of order. It's Satan who is the god of confusion and chaos. You are blaming the wrong god.


Two gods?!?!? And there I was thinking you were a monotheist! Each to their own I suppose. There's a sect in Turkey, coincidentally, which worships Lucifer as a god as well. The difference is they don't think he Fell.

In any event if God is truly omnipotent, benevolent and interested in our world then Satan would by definition be an irrelevancy. How can a creation not unlike us (except presumably with a better singing voice and a ridiculous quantity of wings) manage to undermine the plans of the infinitely powerful? It goes against all reason, particularly when we must assume that God has an even better knowledge of human nature than we do today. And there are techniques that can be used to sell sand to an Egyptian. We're damned good at persuasion; how could God be worse than Satan, let alone us?


A child that sees a lion eat a baby gazelle might make the same conclusion about God, and then happily go wolf down a hamburger without giving it much thought. We don't even understand the physical systems we live in, much less their moral implications in a universal sense. Our ignorance is huge enough to house God.


And that's basically my opinion. But many fundies I've met claim God did all the stuff mentioned in the bible and causes all the suffering in the world today all as part of his greater plan.

Basically if that's what God is - an omnipotent, relentlessly evil bastard - then I don't see any good in worshipping it. People used to worship cats too. It doesn't make it right.

Personally I'm inclined to think God is either not omnipotent at all, or not omnipotent by choice. Shit happens and it doesn't have much to do with it.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hmm, wasn't it God, not Satan, who ordered Abraham to sacrifice Issac to 'prove' his loyalty?


Looking at this from another pov...At least Issac would be in heaven then, hopefully. (If not, guess it would suck to be him.)

It's just that, well, the god of the Christians is frankly an immoral, vicious bastard with the social graces of a praying mantis and a heart as black as coal.


I disagree, i'm christian, and that's not my God. My God, is kind, caring/compassionate, just, understanding, amongst other things.

~L

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
I disagree, i'm christian, and that's not my God. My God, is kind, caring/compassionate, just, understanding, amongst other things.


Presumably you don't believe everything you read in the bible then, which, you'll be glad to know, makes you no fundie. Rejoice, ye merry spoonshifter.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Presumably you don't believe everything you read in the bible then, which, you'll be glad to know, makes you no fundie. Rejoice, ye merry spoonshifter.


Correct, I realize that humans wrote the bible, are fallible, and have agendas. So, i take everything with a grain of salt, and find my own truth. For example, i believe it was in the book of genesis, there was a point where Adam and Eve's children were told to go find wives/mates....where'd they come from since there isn't any mention of any other beings having existed at the time. (Sorry, this is coming from memory, bible study, years ago...)

~L
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Presumably you don't believe everything you read in the bible then, which, you'll be glad to know, makes you no fundie. Rejoice, ye merry spoonshifter.


Also, just because someone believes everything in the bible, doesn't make them a fundamentalists necessarily, foolish or easily led maybe, but not necessarily a fundie. If they start blowing things up, and preaching the my way or the high way....then sure. (IMO)

~L
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
While I don't agree with Cacto, I have to take issue with that. You have said that 'everything' is part of God's, the real God's, plan, KFC. You even said the Holocaust was.


While God allows things to happen he's not the author of it. He can take the bad and turn it into good. An example would be Joseph. Sold into slavery by his own family he recognized this and said "while you meant it for evil God meant it for good to bring to pass as it is this day to save much people alive."

Yes, supposedly he, while hanging out with Satan, decided to let Satan kill off Jobs family to prove a point. Is that the kind of behavior we'd tolerate from humans? Why attribute it to a perfect God?


ya, hanging out. Ya that's it. When all was said and done, Job received a double portion of all he had EXCEPT his children. He received another 10 knowing full well that he would see all his previous children in heaven. He was a blessed man and he knew it.

Two gods?!?!? And there I was thinking you were a monotheist! Each to their own I suppose. There's a sect in Turkey, coincidentally, which worships Lucifer as a god as well. The difference is they don't think he Fell.


hahah I am a mono!! While there are many gods....there is only one GOD. A god or an idol is anything that takes our focus off the real thing. Satan fits that. Jesus called him the prince of the world. Satan aspires to be GOD but he will never be.

I think there are probably alot of outright Satanists out there. Never heard of this one in Turkey although it's quite interesting to me. Colosse, Ephesus, Laodicia and Hierapolis were all part of what is now Modern Turkey. Paul preached three years in Ephesus and everybody in that time period heard the gospel. So you are telling me now it is a Satanic stronghold? Paul knew this was going to happen as he mentions this in Acts.

How can a creation not unlike us (except presumably with a better singing voice and a ridiculous quantity of wings) manage to undermine the plans of the infinitely powerful? It goes against all reason, particularly when we must assume that God has an even better knowledge of human nature than we do today.


Exactly, he is a creation. We have nothing to fear from him. He has not managed to undermine anything God doesn't allow him to do. Again, the example of Job could be used here. Satan was limited to what he could do.

And that's basically my opinion. But many fundies I've met claim God did all the stuff mentioned in the bible and causes all the suffering in the world today all as part of his greater plan.


I believe the bible is his word and everything in it is true and believable. So I would agree with your fundie friends on the first point. But I would differ on the suffering. Suffering can come from different areas. Satan can make us suffer, like he did Job. Sometimes we suffer as a result of logical consequences.

As a matter of fact, I'll go out on a limb and dare suggest many times we cause alot of suffering all by ourselves. Why blame God for our reaping what we have sown? Drink too much? Have liver or other health problems? Blame God? Smoke too much? Lung cancer and other health issues? Blame God? Bad parenting? Irrisponsible kids? Blame God?




Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
This is how I see it Cacto, first off the bible has been re-written so many times that it's difficult to tell what's what anymore. While I do still read mine, the one I had since childhood, which is a totally different version from those I do see now....hence it's tattered...but it speaks to me and I learn from it. I dont' take everything literally, because if I did, I would probably be one of those fundamentalist people out there.

Also, why does God always gets blame for everything? HE might have created the world, and the first man intelligence and made animals who they are, maybe he's wondering where he went wrong?

I'm sick and tired of hearing people say Christians this and Christians that....99% of them don't speak for me, nor me for them....then again, they would run so far from me because I in no way behave or think the way they do!LOL! I cannot quote the bible without looking it up, and I'm not ashamed of that!

Why do people constantly think that God wants to hurt them, or wants us to be hurt? What's in it for him if he does? He would be one sick son of bitch that's for sure!

He did give man free will, despite what the bible dipicted about Eve's transgression. And who's to say it wasn't the man who did make Eve eat the apple?! LOL! Have you ever think about the fact that he is just waiting for us to really know ourselves and prove ourselves worthy?
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
"ya, hanging out. Ya that's it."


...

  1. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
  2. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
  3. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
  4. Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
  5. Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
  6. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
  7. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


...

You can't really debate the fact that God has allowed Satan to wander to and fro, it says it right there. You can't debate the fact that even in EDEN He let Satan muck things up. Would you let someone like Satan wander around messing with your kids? Odd way to run things.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
You can't really debate the fact that God has allowed Satan to wander to and fro, it says it right there. You can't debate the fact that even in EDEN He let Satan muck things up. Would you let someone like Satan wander around messing with your kids? Odd way to run things.


First of all having a conversation with Satan, and enjoying a cool one hanging out are two diff things. I was just joking saying ya...Satan and God...really tight!!

Yes, God did allow Satan to "muck" things up. That's the beauty of free will. We are given free will and have the choice to say yea or nay. So tho Satan is the temptor, we have to put on our big girl panties or big boy boxers and take responsibility for our own actions. And that Baker is something I think you can agree? Amen?

These Kids as you call them, were fully grown adults. Are you going to follow your daughter around and make sure Satan isn't messing up her day?

If so, I'd love to hear about it.




Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Yes, God did allow Satan to "muck" things up. That's the beauty of free will."


I don't recall Angels enjoying the same level of 'free will' as humans. Different *cough* Beast entirely. There was no promise to the Angels in your histories, was there? God could do whatever He wanted with them anytime he liked, couldn't He?

"These Kids as you call them, were fully grown adults. Are you going to follow your daughter around and make sure Satan isn't messing up her day?"


Would I let someone who is patently evil wander around and harm my child? At any age? Nope. Would you? Would you let, say, a serial killer move freely around your family reunion and chalk it all up to free will?

I don't recall Job having any 'free will' choice in the matter of the destruction of his family, nor do I remember the family having any choice.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Would I let someone who is patently evil wander around and harm my child? At any age? Nope. Would you? Would you let, say, a serial killer move freely around your family reunion and chalk it all up to free will?


No, but then I'm not God. I'm not in control. I am not omniscient nor am I omnipresent. I genuinely leave the God things up to him.

But I'll let him know you're concerned.

I don't recall Job having any 'free will' choice in the matter of the destruction of his family, nor do I remember the family having any choice.


Job was a very mature spiritual man. He quite recognized the sovereignty of God. He quite recognized that God gave him all he had. He even said "naked I came and naked I go, blessed be the name of the Lord."

Much like the little ol' lady who gave her last two mites in the temple. She also recognized and had great faith in God. If only I had that faith. I envy that. I'm working on it.

We don't own our children. We are their managers to take care of and to let go. They are not our possession. They were given us by God. Some recognize this...some don't. Doesn't matter. In the end we take nothing or nobody with us.



Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Bible talks a lot about stewards and people entrusted with responsibilities, though, wouldn't you say? What are the consequences, usually, of people who were handed the master's goods and didn't bother to protect them?

"No, but then I'm not God. I'm not in control."


So you're saying you you aren't in control, but you'd at least attempt to block someone that evil from being around your kids, but God, while in control, doesn't? Doesn't that seem odd considering how often Jesus referred to God as our "father"? It isn't like Satan is just a friend with bad habits, this is someone described by Christians as being completely willing to commit any and all evil.

Sounds like an odd choice to leave him wandering around among people you care about. I don't know that God owed Satan any free will. I'm not sure that Satan is the beneficiary of any grant that God gave to man or otherwise. Seems strange just to leave him off a leash to do what he wants.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Bible talks a lot about stewards and people entrusted with responsibilities, though, wouldn't you say? What are the consequences, usually, of people who were handed the master's goods and didn't bother to protect them?[/quote]

Job was a great steward of his family. If you notice, he gave God offerings on his children's behalf quite regularly. Yes, we are stewards of all God gives us, even our children so we'd agree here. All I'm saying is ultimately it's God who is their creator not us. Job could do nothing to save his children from the destruction that came upon them suddenly.

It didn't make him a poor steward. It brought him to the realization they were not his to begin with.

[quote]So you're saying you you aren't in control, but you'd at least attempt to block someone that evil from being around your kids, but God, while in control, doesn't? Doesn't that seem odd considering how often Jesus referred to God as our "father"?


we keep running smack into God's sovereignty Baker and which I think really you have a hard time with. Look at it this way....God called Job's kids home. He's taking very good care of them, better than Job could do. They are much better off than they were here...in the land of the dead. We are not in the land of the living here. We think we are but it's much nicer on the other side and when we get there we start a new life only it lasts for eternity.

[quote]I'm not sure that Satan is the beneficiary of any grant that God gave to man or otherwise. Seems strange just to leave him off a leash to do what he wants.


yes it does...to us it does. But it's all part of a plan that God has to call a people for his name. The sheep and the goats will be divided over this. It kinda reminds me of that story you may have heard.

A man with a gun and cameo bursts into an underground church in a communist country. He's angry and shouts that if any denounce the faith right now they can leave. A few do in a heartbeat. They scurry out. He again shakes the tree asking if anymore want to give their life up to their God or go free right now. A few more leave.

He shuts the door, and tells them He's also a Christian and wanted to be sure he was among his brethren because only then could he trust them with the news he had for them.

It's like that for us. There's nothing wrong with testing or even temptation for that matter. It's the only way we can prove ourselves. It's a test of our character. A test or trial doesn't make us who we are....it just exposes us.

Job was exposed and found worthy. He was refined and came out stronger than before. One thing is for sure, when you go thru a trial like Job, you come out changed and always in a diff direction than when you started. It's like a bend in the road that takes you to a different level.

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
sorry for the above mess Baker, not sure why it came out all highlighted like that.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
For example, i believe it was in the book of genesis, there was a point where Adam and Eve's children were told to go find wives/mates....where'd they come from since there isn't any mention of any other beings having existed at the time. (Sorry, this is coming from memory, bible study, years ago...)


Read the bold, I never said i was sure on it. I said, "I believe." I left a margin of error, because: A) I haven't read the bible in a while. B) I never have really understood it.

Now, i admit, reading this, and then checking my own bible...it makes me think.

I was raised as being told that Adam and Eve were the first man, and woman. Reading that, and re-reading it now, it doesn't seem so. What do you think?

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
What I hope is a fair summary of the various possible positions based on the above:

1. There is a God, who has inerrantly revealed himself in Scripture and is every bit as nasty as you say, but the nastiness ultimately has a beauty and necessity in the 'Grand Plan' that your finite mind cannot be expected to grasp... [a view exemplified by KFCs postings]

2. There is a God who is indeed a vengeful, sadistic, cruel, 'artistic' monster, so suck it up you miserable little worm! [a view exemplified by LW's postings]

3. There is a God who is Perfect; he could therefore not possibly be the sadistic monster that scripture portrays, and these Bronze Age myths must merely represent a certain primitive stage in personkind's evolving attempts to comprehend the Numinous. [a view exemplified by Bakerstreet's postings]

4. There is no God.

I think that Cacto is essentially disputing options 1 and 2 because he is leaning towards option 3, but I would like to suggest that the most serene, rational and genuinely liberating of all these options is number 4...
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think that Cacto is essentially disputing options 1 and 2 because he is leaning towards option 3, but I would like to suggest that the most serene, rational and genuinely liberating of all these options is number 4...


Eh, I don't think there's any god worthy of worship out there who is omnipotent. And if the god isn't omnipotent and can have its will overturned at any point then there's no point worshipping it anyway.

I think I lean more towards

5. There may be a god, but if there is it's probably a) a sadistic bastard, b) basically uninterested in humanity or c) little stronger than we are. Ergo there's no point worshipping it because that would be a)immoral, b)pointless or c) there'd be better investments of my time.

As for the benefits of atheism I am completely uninterested. A belief in things that can't be proven is what makes homo sapiens human. I will never throw away a ridiculous theory or belief simply because it can't be proven. Irrationality is, in this world of increasing rationality, a precious gift to be nurtured, not thrown away.