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Jumping to conclusions in Iraq

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Jumping to conclusions in Iraq

Deciding before the whole story is known...

from JoeUser Forums

Some Iraqi POWs were "abused" by American soliders. Bad. Right?

But how much do we know? For all people know, these Iraqi POWs were the ones who burned those American civilians to death and then dragged them through the street and had them hung upside down from a bridge for days.

The point is, we don't know. Something clearly made these particular POWs hated beyond belief. Hated to the point where the soldiers felt an unordinary amount of freedom to humiliate these particular POWs.

That doesn't excuse what happened by any means. But the US has a very good track record for its treatement of POWs. I've seen a lot of articles expressing outrage and condemnation of the US because of this incident. Strangely, I didn't see that same indignation when the 4 American civilian contractors were brutally burned to death and hung from a bridge (for the crime of trying to set up food shipments to the city).

So don't be too quick to rush to judgement. There is more to this situation than meets the eye.

7,229 views 36 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
The thing is, as an American, I have every right to hold my government to a high human right's standard. The failure of others to uphold the protocols of the Geneva convention is not an excuse for relaxing our standards or not calling our government to task when we see violations. We, as Americans, put ourselves on a moral pedestal--I have every right to express outrage when someone tries to knock the pedestal over, or a fellow American puts cracks in the pedestal.

And, just to clarify, this was more than humiliation--there were at least 2 murders, and 23 other cases are being investigated. So please, Anthony R--do not equate this to fraternity hazing. Justice and revenge are not the same. These soldiers sought revenge, not justice. And the cycle of revenge will continue.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
Good Lord do you people not know about the US's history of treatment of prisoners? That's why I marvel at the US planner's awesome control over information. I doubt even a totalitarian system could produce such an uneven playing field. I'll inform you mildly by saying you should look into the real history of the post WW2 Germany and Eisenhower's nice hospitality when it came to open-air prisoner camps. It's not in your history books to be sure, but there is ample evidence if you choose to look for it. It's unfortunate so many people are so unaware of their country's own true history. It's a display of awesome complete control over information. Think about it. Nothing anti-american (news that is true but makes the US look bad) makes it onto and into the US mainstream news, such as the fact the US had been torturing the Iraqis long before these new revelations. And when it makes it onto the non conventional alternative news sites, it's flying saucer whackos so who cares. Or if it's a foreign Arab news show it's propaganda so it's all a lie....they win both ways, and I bow to that kind of control they have over the populations. Whether you realize it or not, you all are expendable and indifferent to an indifferent government and are totally submissive to the fact you have no power whatsoever. Don't misunderstand me either. Even people like Rice and Bush are in the same boat as you. They'll come and go but the real power remains unabated and in full control. They're just frontmen for the real powers that be.
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Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
We need the cooperation of the Iraqi people if the model of Iraqi stability in the Middle East is to become a reality. I think one of our Arab allies like the Jordanians or Saudi Arabians need to become involved in the incarceration from this point forward, they could go in the prison and assure the Arab world that prisoners are receiving humane treatment.
Americans have had some rough days in Iraq, but there is no excuse for substituting one brand of torture for another, I am glad to see that the Bush administration is moving fast on this. This certainly isn’t his fault; I don’t think “he knew.”


“The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons”
--Dostoevsky
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bush didn't even apologize on behalf of America.
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
that political cartoon is right on the money...the only thing I have a problem with in this whole situation is that this really makes it hard for the United States to claim that were the MORAL force in Iraq. I mean I can't even count the number of times I've heard people talk about how the torture chambers of Saddam's regime are closed forever. But now it makes it APPEAR like we just replaced them with our own torture chambers. Granted I don't think US military servicemembers are torturing Iraqi prisoners as standard operating procedure, but this really makes us look like hypocrits to a degree. I mean, these people really don't like our presence in their country to begin with, and now one of our main selling points for getting rid of Saddam is bullshit...at least in their perception. However, like several people have posted, their barbaric behavior with incidents like the killing of those contractors doesn't give us any excuse to behave in the same manner.

Another point about those idiots who got caught torturing prisoners....Those soldiers were from a Army Reserve MP Batallion from Maryland. They'd been over in Iraq for over a year, then they got the word to pack up can come home. Then about an hour before they were supposed to get on a plane bound for the United States, the DOD changed their mind and sent the whole unit back up North for an openended extension of their deployment. How much does that have to suck???? The same thing happened to my unit over there last August, only they changed their mind back again like a week later and sent us home. The way the DOD fucked with us, I thought about torturing someboy too!! jk.
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh by the way, whoever put up that Dostoevsky quote...awesome. Everybody sould read Dostoevsky, its interesting stuff
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
70% to 90% of the abused Iraqi prisoners were innocent of any crime. They were picked up in house-to-house raids by U.S. military looking for weapons.

The Blackwater mercenaries were providing security for food shipments to U.S. military personnel, not Iraqi citizens.

They were legitimate combatant targets to the Iraqis fighting the illegal U.S. occupation and take-over of their countries oil industry by U.S. corporations with the U.S. military killing off any dissenters to absolute rule by Bremer.

The bodies were already dead and burned by the explosion.

That's a lot different that the homosexual rape of innocent Iraqi prisoners by sadistic untrained MPs and interrogators.

Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top

Incorrect. 70% to 90% of the people in that prison may (MAY) be innocent of any crime. But we do not know much on the people who were actually abused. Mark my words, this is going to boomerang on people. There are already eye witness reports from soldiers who have reported that the abused prisoners they knew of were pretty monstrous.

Pity you seem incapable of differntiating between "Abuse" and murder.

Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
Anthony R. That picture sums the difference very well.

Of course, abuse of any kind is wrong.
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
So don't be too quick to rush to judgement. There is more to this situation than meets the eye.


... and you would know this how?
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
"... and you would know this how?"


Because unlike other experts here, closet economists and otherwise, Brad understands that the public isn't privy to all the details, and that this is much more complex.

That's something that can easily be understood by devil's advocates in terms of terrorists, but oddly anything an American does is quickly definable, damnable. If you have to "look at the whole picture" when you talk about people who murder innocents, maybe the same behavior is preferable in this case. Until you have the whole picture, maybe you don't know what you are talking about.

Ya think?