Jumping to conclusions in Iraq

I'm not judging, contrary to popular opinion.

I realize that we're only seeing a microscopic portion of the picture.  Who knows what preceeded these pictures being taken?  I agree that there is/are no excuse(s) for some things, but compared to the atrocities that the Iraqi regime has comitted against US prisoners and it's own people...well, this is really nothing.

 

I'm sure that the US and British offenders will be dealt with appropriately.  If nothing else, the court of public opinion will ensure they're villified.  Can the same be said for the Iraqi torturers?

Draginol - While I am normally fairly close to your political ideas on this I have to differ. Our treatment of POWs is one of the few things that has set us apart from the barbarian hordes out there. I don't give a damn what those prisoners might have done, *nothing* is an excuse for these soldiers. We as soldiers are part of the Executive branch not the Judicial. Once removed from a combat environment a prisoner is beyond any soldiers judgement or ability to punish. That is the way it is and the way it must remain. Zero tolerance can be given under any circumstances. It is a shame but these "soldiers" who blatantly disregarded orders need to be punished with the full power of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. While torturing prisoners is not a capital offense, it probably should be. We can not allow this sort of thing to go on *ever*.

Two comment Draginol:

1. You wrote an article not so long ago, titled - 'UN: Oil for food program funded the UN - It just keeps getting worse', where you seemed ready to hang the UN based on one unsubstatiated news paper article. And yet here, with photographic evidence, you tell us not to jump to conclusions.

2. I would dispute the claim that prisoners held by the US are always treated well. We have the situation in Guantanamo Bay where several hundred people have been held captive for well over two years without trial. These prisoners include children and were specifically titled 'enemy combatants' purely so the US would not have to treat them in accordance with the Geneva convention.

Pictures have emerged in the British press of soldiers from the Queen's Lancaster Regiment urinating on Iraqi thieves and hitting them in the groin with the less dangerous end of a rifle. These aren't soldiers, they are rapacious thieves, a little maltreatment is good for all concerned. May God bless the British Army!

This controversy is just ridiculous. American college hazing is a lot worse than this alleged “prisoner torture.” Perhaps the Iraqis would rather go back to the good old days.
Saddam would’ve had their tongues amputated, or thrown them off three story buildings, or worse.

if the iraqis in question are truly the same persons who burned their victims in fallujah (they could be...just like i could be the sultan of brunei or you could have been a bit more humane...but they arent and im not and you werent), it would be a case of very poetic justice since it is beginning to appear as if the persons who run that prison are, like the victims of that mob, also private security personnel or "contractors". as such, its reported, they are not responsible to anyone but their employer while in iraq. which may likely be a factor in what was a clearly a foolish decision to drive thru fallujah without notifying the local command. what happened to them was horrible beyond words but since most of the private security "contractors" are former seals/rangers, its seems strange they willingly entered into harm's way.

i cant speak for anyone else but if i were one of the marines under fire in fallujah, id probably have an easier time understanding why a group of iraqis was trying to resist the occupation of my home town than why i was making so much less in the service of america than the 5 figure tax-free income i could be making as member of the elite halliburton special forces

beyond that, theres absolutely no excuse whatsoever for the type of maltreatment depicted in those photographs...by any person in any circumstance.. although this isnt a political issue at all (anyone who thinks it is needs to do some moral compass recalibration), i dont want to leave you with the impression you can categorize my comment as being a liberal position, so ill conclude with the words of the late robert taft: "There are good many Americans who talk about an American century in which America will dominate the world.... The trouble with those who advocate this policy is that they really do not confine themselves to moral leadership. They are inspired with the same kind of New Deal planned-control ideas abroad as recent Administrations have desired to enforce at home. In their hearts they want to force on these foreign peoples through the use of American money and even, perhaps, American arms the policies which moral leadership is able to advance only through the sound strength of its principles and the force of its persuasion."

those my friend are the words of a true conservative and a true believer in liberty and freedom.

Gerry - the UN oil for food program has been floating around for over a year about its corruption. Concluding that there has been massive corruption after a year of consideration is not jumping to conclusions.

On the other hand, some pictures of naked Iraqi POWs with bags on their heads doesn't tell me very much and we don't yet know any of their background.

BTW, greywar, please re-read my article. I explicitly wrote that the circumstances don't excuse their behavior at all. I am just saying that the media is giving a double standard and people are jumping to conclusions.

Draginol - Yes, you have included a sentence that says extenuating circumstances don't excuse this behavior. However, the rest of your statements seem to imply mitigating factors that might lighten the burden of guilt upon the soldiers involved. You may not have intended for it to sound that way, but statements like (paraphrasing) "for all we know, these guys killed the Americans in Fallujah," and (quote) "don't be so quick to rush to judgement. There is more to this situation than meets the eye," appear to be trying to stem the outrage that some people have towards these soldiers.
If you instead intended to deflect blame from the military in general to those specifically responsible, I agree. However, I still can't read the article that way (sorry).

On the other hand, some pictures of naked Iraqi POWs with bags on their heads doesn't tell me very much and we don't yet know any of their background.

There were a lot more pictures than that.

I was disgusted ..for some reason I always thought our troops were more " humane ".

I wonder if it was the other way around ..would your article read the same?

For crying out loud, it HAS been the other way over and over again. And where were the blogs? Where was the outraged blogs when 4 American civilians were BURNED TO DEATH, dragged through the streets and then hung from a bridge for a week?

Yes, a handful of American soldiers behaved badly. But we don't know very much about the issue. If these guys were the guys who commited some atrocities, while it doesn't excuse what they did, it makes it more understandable.

But the double standard I see is appalling. Look at the # of posts here on JU decrying and villfying the US on this. These same people wrote ZERO articles denouncing the Iraqi behavior which was far worse.

As reports continue to come out, we find that these pictures were taken a year ago. The investigation has been going on and will continue to go on and more ugly atrocities will be revealed. Such crimes are the products of war and occupation. And unfortunately, few people seem to make a difference when it comes to hate and bigotry. What is to be gained from this war? I say let's turn the volume off and watch the money trail. Where's it coming from and where is it going? Because, in my opinion, it's all about the money.

Where were the blogs?

Well, I for one wasn't blogging at that time (not that you could accuse me of blogging now...), and I also wasn't reading these forums. But when I heard about the happenings in Fallujah...

Our Platoon had already gotten together for a weekly "Intelligence Briefing." Really just a recap of the news, more or less, but the events had just transpired. The briefer barely touched on the subject, but I had been net-surfing a bit that day. As (what passes in the Army for) a subject matter expert, I got the briefer to yield the floor to me and went ahead and hooked the projector up to the computer that I had been working on. I gave a brief explanation of what I had read, letting them know the reliability of the sources I had found, and what details still hadn't been filled in.
And then I showed them the pictures.
Fighting to keep my voice cracking as I said, "And that's a human body," I showed them the pictures.
I don't know if I've ever seen the Platoon, a rogueish lot of wisecracking assclowns to be sure, stunned into silence like that. Ordered into silence, sure, but not like this.

The pictures that are coming out in the news do seem to be a year old. One report I read claims that it was an anonymous soldier who came forward recently (at least a month ago, however) saying he couldn't take doing and seeing these things any more. The command in charge of those prisons was removed a month ago, and different commanders implaced. But we may not have seen the full extent of the abuse yet. Sure, the pictures shown so far don't affect me as deeply and emotionally as the ones depicting the four Americans in Fallujah did. But they still disgust me. They disgust me that any human being has to be treated this way, and they disgust me because some jackass MP is giving all the reasonable soldiers a bad name.

Even if the prisoners in question had killed dozens of US soldiers and aid workers, while it would make this sort of treatment more "understandable" from a psychology perspective, it doesn't make it any more "right" from a moral obligation standard. These soldiers did the wrong thing, and I fear that other soldiers will pay the price, here.

I too was not blogging at the time. Of course i was outraged and appalled with what happened to the civilians .. as I am by any atocicities against humanity.

All I am saying is we expect the " good guys " to be the voice of reason NOT to behave in a similiar but milder manner.

I also know it was a few individuals I am not blaming the whole body of troops for it.

But when the voice of condemnation starts to mimic the very thing it is condemning ... people tend to not listen as much.

True we don't know who these prisoners were and we could play guessing games for ever on that. I just thought civilised people treated their prisoners more humanely.

Read http://philcarter.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_philcarter_archive.html#108341589798829542 for a decent discussion of how these particular idiots from the US have threatened our mission in Iraq, put our soldiers in greater jeopardy, and should have the (military) book thrown at them.

Your willingness to excuse the jailers' illegal and immoral behavior suggests that you don't really have the courage of your convictions. "The other guys acted like subhuman animals too, so that makes it OK for us to act like subhuman animals" is really a lousy argument. That's exactly the sort of relativist claptrap that you'd criticize if it came from, say, John Kerry. He'd be wrong if he made that argument. And you know what? You're wrong for making it now.

You can say we don't know the whole story, but that's really a fuzzy-headed liberal position, draginol. Oh, wait, I know -- maybe they were putting on an Easter play! It's all just a BIG misunderstanding! Haw, haw haw.

--peterb
http://www.tgr.com/weblog

We don't know the whole story in many different ways.

We can all agree what was done was wrong. But we don't even know precisely what was "done" beyond humiliating some Iraqi POWs. The pictures could be a week old or a year old. They could be of innocent Iraqi's who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time or they could be pictures of Iraqi's who used to run the torture chambers and the soldiers were playing ironic games with them.

The damage that these American soldiers have done is pretty obvious. But what is also pretty obvious is the double standard and how quickly people jump to conclusions without learning about the background or even the specifics.

I think the U.S. is on the hot seat right now. Many people were waiting for an opportunity like this to come around to jump on just to add to their overall disagreement with the war. Although I completely disagree with what happened, I am not too surprised by the reaction it has received. When the whole story surfaces is when we should start making inferences on whose fault it was. Either way it was no less damaging. I think since we are the leaders of this war on terrorism we have an extra responsiblity to show our humanitarian side. That is why whoever is responsible should be disciplined. The U.S. needs negativity right now like a desert needs sand.

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Reply By: Anthony R. Posted: Saturday, May 01, 2004
This controversy is just ridiculous. American college hazing is a lot worse than this alleged “prisoner torture.” Perhaps the Iraqis would rather go back to the good old days.
Saddam would’ve had their tongues amputated, or thrown them off three story buildings, or worse.
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of the qualities that people admire most about extremist terrorists, it's their sense of humor, even-temperedness, and ability to put the actions of a very small minority of us soldiers into the proper context.

HM what happened to my post? Anyway...

I hope that weren't true, but if that is true, I hope that those so-called American solders gets what they deserve. No matter who the prisoners, from innocent to someone like Hitler, prisoners is NOT there to be abused.

XX: I think we all agree on that. These soldiers must be punished harshly and publicly.

But 17 soldiers out of 200,000 isn't representative. And even if what they allegedly did is true, it's nothing compared to what Saddam was doing let alone what the insurgents have done to Americans.

When we start setting POW's on fire and hanging them from bridges, then we can talk about there being a real problem.

Based on your track record, I firmly expect that if we, god forbid, started setting POWs on fire and hanging them from bridges, you'd find some way to excuse that, also. I do hope I'm wrong, of course.

President Bush had it right when he, without hesitation, correctly identified this behavior as disgraceful, disgusting, and absolutely unacceptable. Your attempt to invoke moral equivalence between these (unfortunately America) war criminals and Saddam Hussein is shameful.

Just so people know what we're talking about, here's a link to some of the photos in question:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

The behavior was disgraceful and in my post I said it couldn't be excused.

But I abhor the left's blindness to how American POWs are ALREADY treated.

It's not about excusing, it's about keeping things in perspective.

Precisely.

Brad you are totally missing the point.

The US government failed. It had the responsibility to ensure that pow's were treated right and it failed. This is not just a case of a tiny number of bad soldiers, this is a case of a system which allowed an environment for those bad soldiers to commit torture. A system whioch failed to inform it's soldiers how to treat prisoners. A system that failed to supervise it's soldiers. A system where systematic abuse (not just occasional one off incidents) occurred. That's where the real damage comes from. Why would any Iraqi now surrender to coalition forces.

And before you ask, yes I did comment in disgust at the way the 4 American mercenaries were killed in Falluja. I also warned at the time against American over reaction. Pity they didn't take my advice.

At least the US administration now realises the seriousness of the situation with Bush going on Arab TV to try damage control.

Paul.