Gideon MacLeish Gideon MacLeish

What Does It Mean to Serve Your Country?

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What Does It Mean to Serve Your Country?

from JoeUser Forums

One of the things I enjoy about this site is that there are a lot of military personnel and their families who blog here. Being part of the JU community has given me an "inside look" at some of the aspects of this war that the mainstream media will almost certainly never, ever cover.

But one of the consequences of that has been certain ill advised, negative posts that quantify someone's service. Specifically, soldiers who like to frag military brass anonymously with their posts because somehow if you don't drive a Humvee or stand at the giving end of an assault rifle, you just don't measure up. Putting aside the fact that any asshat who has the time to troll the forums to take on brass they would never have the cajones to confront in real life has it a darn sight better than most generations of military before them, I have strong issues with this mentality.

Those issues are enhanced everytime a prominent journalist or politician suggests the reinstatement of a military draft, based on the premise that I and others have not done our duty if we didn't serve. It's insulting, it's condescending, and it's downright wrong.

Let me be absolutely blunt: I did not serve in the military. If for some reason I was forced to do so or compelled to do so, I would almost certainly attempt to serve in a noncombat role. I have moral objections to the taking of a human life, and no military draft will erase those feelings. But I have served, I will continue to serve, and I will contest anyone who says I did not.

There are as many ways to serve your country as there are people. Sure, we see the military out there fighting for our country. But for every face we see, there are millions who do not. Those military personnel need equipment. What of the people who manufacture parts, weapons, clothing, and food (yes, we apologize for that. But come on, the standard of MRE's has improved SOMEWHAT over the years, has it not?)? Those people serve their country in as real and as meaningful a way as the soldiers overseas. What of the politicians who work (arguably) to preserve the Constitution of this country? Do they not serve their country as well? And what of all of the individuals who work to preserve the standard of living? We certainly serve. As tech support personnel for an ISP, I know that I keep a line of communication open between soldiers serving overseas and their families that wasn't possible in years past...a line of communication that certainly helps morale.

World War II was won by sheer strength of will. Ordinary citizens were encouraged to do their part to help the war effort. Everyone from the factory worker to the schoolchild was enlisted to help. Families planted Victory Gardens to help reduce the demand on the market for food products. And nobody's accomplishments were deemed more worthy than another's.

Over my life, I have actively participated in over a dozen campaigns, one as a candidate. I have worked as a firefighter, a political lobbyist and a miner, among many other occupations. I have paid my taxes, volunteered my time, and given to various charities. All of those contributions have served my country in one way or another. And all of them are as important to my country and my community as the efforts of a soldier who serves overseas.

I will never disrespect our soldiers for their sacrifices, even if I disagree with many policies of this administration. But in return, I ask that those soldiers not disrespect me for my service as a civilian. Yes, your families never know when you will return home. But even the life of a civilian is not without risk. I assure you my wife was filled with just as much anxiety when a miner was pulled from the stope of a mine following a rockfall in the mine I was working and airlifted to UMC in Las Vegas, because HIPPA laws prevented the mine from revealing the name of the accident victim, and we were not allowed to call out until procedures had been followed. I can also assure you that my wife was filled with anxiety in the March 13th wildfire when word got back to the evacuated families (yes, our community was evacuated) that one of our trucks had rolled and that three of our firefighters were being treated at the local hospital. And there will be many other times, I assure you, when my wife will have cause to worry.

Don't get me wrong, I am proud of your service. I am grateful for your service, and I'm anxious for ALL of you to come home. But don't EVER assume that I, or anyone else, for that matter, has served less. Because you simply do not KNOW.

12,416 views 39 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think there are many ways to serve a country. When I think of that line..."Serving my country" I often immediately think of soldiers on the front line. But they are not the only ones out there. My former Step brother is a Captain of some sorts in the US Army and has been to Afghanistan, Iraq and now will be headed off somewhere (forgot where) this week if he is still on schedule. He helps set up communications equipment. thats a big thing. Sure, his life may not be on the line as much as those on the front line...but with out people like him backing them up..theyd be screwed.

Im a civilian and I work for the government as a teacher and I think of that, in a sense as serving my country. I get to go to work every day and help teach the history of our country to children.

Not understanding what I wrote makes sense if you don’t understand what an immigrant sees as a tremendous obligation to his adopted nation. He made millions on the patents through the years yet he and his wife in their 60’s still go to work every day to help this nation they were not born in. It is their way of paying us back for allowing them to live free. Yet he still wishes to do more. Only people not born in America think this way about America. It brings tears to my eyes to see that people born in America don’t see how good they have it.

Lol...only people born in this country don't understand a work ethic and feel obligated to retire at the age of 55 no matter what. People from all other countries don't feel obligated to work for us to repay for their freedom. They work because they can. That man who worked came from a country where everyone works all day. They werent trying to help, but they wanted to continue working. Ever go to a Asian factory? They have workers doing exercises and working together to make a better product. Hence the reason why they end up being more productive workers...working together. All our workforce wants is higher pay and more insurance...never hear them talk in union negotiations about making a better product in the end. Just because you are in America doesnt mean you have it good OR better than you had it in any other country. Just depends on what you think is good. Most of the world hates us...I don't really consider that a good thing.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top

Most of the world hates us...

Riggggghhhttt, ziggy. That's why we have problems with illegal immigrants. They hate us so badly they can't wait to get here.

Don't believe everything you hear on CNN!

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
Riggggghhhttt, ziggy. That's why we have problems with illegal immigrants. They hate us so badly they can't wait to get here.

Didnt say I was watching or listening to CNN. Just because we have a bunch of illegal mexican immigrants doesnt mean we are a country people like. They dont come into the US because they like us...they come because they have an opportunity to earn money. Many of them end up sending that money back to families in Mexico or save it with hopes of returning to Mexico some day in the future. They only come here when there is no other option. Where we work here in Wyoming...this is the case (I know this because I see it as a teacher and hear about it alot from fellow parents, coworkers, and students).
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
Just because we have a bunch of illegal mexican immigrants doesnt mean we are a country people like.


OK, why did I know this was going to be your response?

Here's the kicker, ziggy. Not all of the illegals are Mexicans. Again, this is a portrait that's been painted that is not necessarily true. There are illegals from all over the globe.

As a matter of fact, many of the "Mexican" illegal immigrants aren't even Mexican. They're Guatemalan, Nicaraguan, Colombian, all flavors of Latin America. They state that they are "Mexican" so that when they are deported, it is to Mexico and they don't have so far to come back.

They only come here when there is no other option.


That's why so many of them have been here 20 + years? One of the problem with the illegal immigration issue is that so many of them have been here so long. They've raised families here...bought houses here...that's why our government is so reluctant to deport them.

Almost every "fact" you quoted about illegal immigrants, or about most of the world hating us, was stereotypical myths, ziggy. I am assuming you would hold your students to a higher standard than this, therefore, I MUST hold you to a higher standard. All of these are popular held beliefs, but none of them are facts, according to some pretty reliable numbers.
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
On the issue of not all being Mexicans, just so I'm not accused of pulling statistics out of my ass:

The Pew Hispanic Center state that 57% of illegal aliens are of Mexican origin and about 75% are of Latin American origin [16]. They also report that while the number of legal immigrants (including LPRs, refugees, and asylees) arriving has not varied substantially since the 1980s, the number of illegal aliens has increased dramatically and, since the mid 1990s, has surpassed the number of legal immigrants. [17]

This from the Wikipedia article, but it does cite a credible source. 57% are of Mexican origin (and even that 57% can be challenged for the reasons I cited in my last response). That means that 43% aren't. And that 25% aren't of Latin American origin.
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top

As a matter of fact, many of the "Mexican" illegal immigrants aren't even Mexican. They're Guatemalan, Nicaraguan, Colombian, all flavors of Latin America. They state that they are "Mexican" so that when they are deported, it is to Mexico and they don't have so far to come back.

That is very true.  I wrote an article on that.  walking a couple of miles beats 1500 miles any day.

Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
Double post
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
.only people born in this country don't understand a work ethic and feel obligated to retire at the age of 55 no matter what


How precisely does one retire at 55 without a work ethic? I'd imagine that said person busted their butt to retire that early. For example, my father retired at 52 from public school teaching (he had been in the same school for 28 years). Two years earlier, he retired as a Lt. Colonel from the Army (Reserves). While I was growing up he was also the football and baseball coach at a neighboring high school, and he ran his own landscaping business in the summer as well as managing a hotel. He worked incredibly hard for 30ish years, and now gets to enjoy the fruits of that labor.

You don't retire young if you have no work ethic.
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
Almost every "fact" you quoted about illegal immigrants, or about most of the world hating us, was stereotypical myths, ziggy. I am assuming you would hold your students to a higher standard than this, therefore, I MUST hold you to a higher standard. All of these are popular held beliefs, but none of them are facts, according to some pretty reliable numbers.


Gideon,
My original reply was that in support of your topic...unless I somehow managed to take a unfortunate detour along the way. I dont feel you need to be in the military to serve your country.

I didnt know I was offering facts...just opinions...which is something I stray away from in my classroom. From my perspective and please correct me if I'm wrong, we are not well recieved in many other parts of the world. Our war in Iraq is fought with 90% American forces...where is the rest of the support from our allies? How many allies do we have? Iran is claiming to be producing peaceful nuclear power something they claim a right to. We are under the belief they are trying to make weapons (while we have our own huge stockpile), and don't want them to have any. Israel is rumored to be planning a nuclear attack on Iran and Russia is allies with Iran (just finishing a sale of...I believe it was tanks last month). If Israel gets into a war with Iran...then they will be starting a war with an ally of Russia. We've been at odds with Russia lately and havent really tried to do anything with North Korea. Chavez from Columbia is having a fun time ripping us in his country as he now is on his third term and is aiming to make it even more of a socialist country by nationalizing the telecommunications and electrical grids. We somewhat get along with Afghanistan and Pakistan wont let us come in in order to search for Osama. Whether you like it or not, to the muslim world, our invasion of Iraq is seen as an occupation and many (over there) believe it was for oil purposes. I used to believe we did it because he actually had weapons (because everyone said they did)...however that was poo pooed and brushed under the carpet pretty damned fast when it was revealed they had nothing. We don't hear much about relations with other countries and Bush doesnt seem to be willing to try to mend any relations...just keep fighting terror in Iraq.

As far as other myths you claim I made, not sure what to say. I just know from what I see and work with every day in a community that has a very large hispanic population and in a school that educates a large percentage of the hispanic student body in the district.

There was just a report on TV a few weeks ago...not sure where it was. But it featured quite a few different companies talking about how they had to hire illegal workers because they were dependable. They showed their own stats after stats and compared the regular worker to the illegals. In every category it showed how they produced more and worked more efficiently with the illegals working there because they showed up for work to make (earn) that money. The owners of said various companies also noted that if they didn't hire illegals they would either have to considerably shrink their (once large) operations or shut down entirely. Many of the illegals didnt even march on that national illegal workers day (incorrect name I know) last year...they continued to work. Each one of those workers they featured mentioned how they didnt want to stay but work for a few years and then return to their homeland.

Granted, SURE...I admit many of them do want to stay...but dont assume its going to be a vast majority or even a large chunk. This is just like Las Vegas where they boast getting 5,000 people a month, but dont mention that they lose about 2,500 people a month as well. Just because there are millions of illegals here now...doesnt mean that there are even MORE that have came, worked and then left.

Im not going to say people dont want to live here...because people do. Im sure there are illegals who have lived here 20-30-40 years or more. At the same time...Im not going to sit here and think the door to the US is only 1 way.

Shades...I didnt mean to offend you or anything with my comment. It was mearly with the intention of saying that there are people who seem to have a get-rich-quick plan in life. They dont have a ethic of just working and EARNing their money. Im hard on unions. I feel people should get paid for what they do. If you put a blinker cover on a car...should you get paid 15 bucks an hour to do so? If you work in a coal power plant, should you make 30 bucks an hour or 80 an hour while you work on the holidays? I often tell of stories of working at a union job one summer (I wasn't unionized...just a summer gig). My boss chewed my ass out when I went to the store and came back right away. Next time, he told me to take 2 hours on a 10 minute errand. My dad owned a restaurant once and I worked for him. One time he saw me sitting down while I was working. He told me something which still is clear to me as the day he said it, "I don't pay you to sit on your ass, I pay you to work...there is always...ALWAYS something to do." You are right in that you dont retire young if you have no work ethic. However, how much of that work ethic are we putting into todays youth?
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
My original reply was that in support of your topic...unless I somehow managed to take a unfortunate detour along the way. I dont feel you need to be in the military to serve your country.


Ziggy,

Yes, and you had me right up until you demanded that most of the world hates us. You're unintentionally parrotting a talking point from a bunch of morons who simply can't substantiate what they're saying. If most of the world hated us, it would be EXTREMELY dangerous to travel abroad, and there's no way 150,000 troops could even BEGIN to stabilize a Middle Eastern country like Iraq because the fact is we represent about 5% of the world's population. If most of the world hated us, it'd be damn hard to keep them from crushing us like a bug.

The immigrant issues were also equally misleading. You've seen one face of immigration; there's a MUCH bigger picture out there, and it ain't as simple as one thing or the other.

The truth is that the statement that most people around the world hate America is a statement made by some very dangerous people who are trying to use that alleged fact as a scare tactic to gain political power. What they will do if they ever get the level of power they desire could very well destroy this country.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top

How precisely does one retire at 55 without a work ethic? I'd imagine that said person busted their butt to retire that early.

eh, State Government?

Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
What I was responding to specifically was the attack on HW by some random moronic soldier that felt HW's service as an officer was somehow less than his. It was insulting (and beautifully defended, both by HW and lifehappens),


Gideon, I really appreciate your and everyone else's support here at JU. The random morons will be with us always, but how we respond to them is up to us. Also, I'm not an officer, I'm a Non-Comissioned Officer, a Staff Sergeant, to be specific, and I have to break out the old saw to explain the difference: I work for a living! Ha!
Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
Also, I'm not an officer, I'm a Non-Comissioned Officer, a Staff Sergeant, to be specific, and I have to break out the old saw to explain the difference: I work for a living! Ha!


"Dont call me Sir! I work for a living!" Yes Sergeant!   
Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Dont call me Sir! I work for a living!" Yes Sergeant!


love that movie!!!

i'm tempted to start throwin out quotes from it, but i don't wanna hijack this serious topic...